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Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch! (Read 8966 times)
Acid Monkey
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #15 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 3:34pm
 
Can anyone give a fatwa? If not, then  what requirements are needed to qualify one to do so? A scholar? An iman? How do they become Muftis or Grand Muftis? Is an iman considered to be "clergy"?

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abu_rashid
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #16 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 4:42pm
 
Quote:
Can anyone give a fatwa?


No, should be someone who has studied extensively and has ejazah (a chain of teachers stretching back to the prophet (pbuh) himself).

Quote:
A scholar? An iman?


Actually a better translation would be 'scientist', an Aalim is someone who has studied the Islamic Uloom (sciences). Obviously in the modern Western context, you'd not consider such a a translation accurate but that's actually the best translation. Also keep in mind that for most of Islamic history, there was no distinction between a scientist of the Islamic sciences and one of the natural sciences, most of the great scientists/scholars in Islam were also scientists/scholars in mathematics, astrology, geography etc.

By 'Iman' I think you mean Imam. Imam just means 'the guy at the front', coming from the Arabic word for forward/front Amaam, and it basically just means leader, usually leader of congregational prayers.

Quote:
Is an iman considered to be "clergy"?


As stated already there's no concept of clergy in Islam, really.
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #17 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 4:53pm
 
Why is scientist a better translation than academic, scholar or something else?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #18 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 6:50pm
 
Quote:
Why is scientist a better translation than academic, scholar or something else?


Because that's what it translates as.

عالم (Aalim) is the Arabic word for 'Islamic Scholar' and it's also the Arabic word for 'Scientist'. Throughout the history of Islam, there wasn't really any distinction between the two, they were exactly the same thing. Islam doesn't have the same kind of historical conflict between religion and science as the Western Christian civilisation has. In the Islamic world they were more seen as one wholistic tree of knowledge, some branches of which dealt with Islamic disclipines and some which dealt with physical phenomena and some which deal with social phenomena and so on.

Growing up with a Western viewpoint myself, I can definitely see the problems that raises for you, as it doesn't fit in nicely with the Western way of dividing it all up. But you gotta realise Muslims have always viewed it like this, since long before the Christian West took any interest whatsoever in science. Pretty much all of the famous Muslim scientists/mathematicians were all 'Islamic Scholars' also, and were masters in the Islamic branches of science like Usul ul-Fiqh (Islamic Jurisprudence), Tafsir (Qur'anic exegesis) etc. They didn't consider themselves as 'Islamic Scholars' and also 'Scientists', they just considered themselves 'Aalim'.
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #19 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 7:02pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 14th, 2008 at 6:50pm:
Islam doesn't have the same kind of historical conflict between religion and science as the Western Christian civilisation has. In the Islamic world they were more seen as one wholistic tree of knowledge, some branches of which dealt with Islamic disclipines and some which dealt with physical phenomena and some which deal with social phenomena and so on.

Interesting. With that in mind, how do the aalims tackle natural sciences such as evolution and the Big Bang theory? Some Christians have a hard time accepting this as it goes against the literal teaching of Genesis and the creation of the universe and Man. Do Muslims have the same dilemma?
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #20 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 7:15pm
 
Quote:
Interesting. With that in mind, how do the aalims tackle natural sciences such as evolution and the Big Bang theory?


Those theories have only been proposed in the last century or two, by which time the Islamic civilisation had almost completely declined. There have been very few Muslims worthy of the title Aalim in that time, what few Ulema (plural of Aalim) we've had, were usually busy addressing other issues related to our decline, occupation, revival, disapora etc. to have time to focus on issues of natural science. Along with this, we have the Arab nation states attempting (quite poorly) to emulate the Western secular states, and so they've pushed, quite brutally in many cases, to relegate the role of the Ulema to something like a 'cleric', who performs circumcisions, marriages, burials and delivers weekly sermons about being nice to your neighbour asnd occasionally gives a 'fatwa' when the government requires it to condone/condemn things that suit the government's interests.

Basically that kind of higher level of thinking requires a very stable civilisation, and the only civilisation which is stable enough at present to produce such a level of thinking is the Western civilisation. The Islamic civilisation has not seen that kind of stability for quite a few centuries.
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #21 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 7:21pm
 
If you want a giggle, you can go to youtube and hear how the koran has already solved ALL these mysteries.

Big Bang=The world came from a cloud.
Flat Earth= The world is laid before you like a carpet.
Not Flat Earth=The world is like an egg.

I don't know why we westerners waste all that money and time seeking to increase the knowledge and understanding of mankind, an illiterate arab solved it all 1400 years ago.
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #22 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 7:47pm
 
Abu,

If you don't mind, how about on a personal level? What is your opinion as a Muslim on the natural sciences of (say) evolution and the creation of the universe etc. I suppose, this question goes out to Malik, Exotic Cheese and Lestat as well, if they so wish to answer.

Smiley
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #23 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 8:40pm
 
Quote:
Flat Earth= The world is laid before you like a carpet.


Quite amsuing since Muslim cartographers measured the circumference of the earth with amazing accuracy in the 9th. century C.E

Last time I checked it's kind of hard to measure the circumference of a flat 2d plane Smiley

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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #24 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 8:50pm
 
Abu_rashid- Thank you for answering my questions.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #25 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 9:26pm
 
Quote:
If you don't mind, how about on a personal level? What is your opinion as a Muslim on the natural sciences of (say) evolution and the creation of the universe etc.


I'm certainly no Aalim.

And I am certainly not qualified to speak about the theories that biologists and cosmologists propound. Let's just say I find them interesting, and I enjoy learning about them, but don't consider all that they postulate to be proven fact. As far as evolution theory is concerned, I studied biology and actually biochemistry to a high school level, so I have a basic understanding of what they involve, but am not particularly convinced they are correct. I enjoy reading/listening to material about cosmology and I don't really see anything in it that contradicts the Islamic description of how the universe came to be. In fact some passages from the Qur'an have been pointed out to actually corroborate some of what modern cosmological theories claim about the origins of the universe, here's some examples:

The universe was constructed and is being expanded:
"And the firmament, We constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it." (Qur'an 51:47)


The universe will be contracted again:
The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),  (Qur'an 21:104)
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #26 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 10:09pm
 
Is there no 'official' Islamic position on evolution?

(Aalim) is the Arabic word for 'Islamic Scholar' and it's also the Arabic word for 'Scientist'.

So you translate it as scholar when the context implies that the English word scholar is the correct translation, and you translate it as scientist when the context requires it.

Throughout the history of Islam, there wasn't really any distinction between the two, they were exactly the same thing.

It's the same throughout most of western history. Science has a meaning now that it didn't a few centuries ago. The Greek (I think) 'scientia' translates to knowledge, not science.

Islam doesn't have the same kind of historical conflict between religion and science as the Western Christian civilisation has.

That doesn't justify the wrong translation into English.

In the Islamic world they were more seen as one wholistic tree of knowledge, some branches of which dealt with Islamic disclipines and some which dealt with physical phenomena and some which deal with social phenomena and so on.

ie, philosophy

But you gotta realise Muslims have always viewed it like this, since long before the Christian West took any interest whatsoever in science.

That doesn't justify the incorrect translation either.

Pretty much all of the famous Muslim scientists/mathematicians were all 'Islamic Scholars' also

Same with many early European philosophers and scientists.
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #27 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 10:10pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Aug 13th, 2008 at 10:04am:
to incite hatred towards Islam



The next guy who says this is a rotten egg.


No-one does more to stoke this particular sentiment then muslims.  Enough of this empty, shop-soiled, double-talk cliche.


With the greatest respect.



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No one has the right not to be offended.
 
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #28 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 10:12pm
 
Hi Soren, welcome to OzPolitic. I remember you from AM, but they deleted the thread with your posts in it that I read.
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Re: Sheikh Says Queen Is Less Than A Bitch!
Reply #29 - Aug 14th, 2008 at 10:14pm
 
Hi Soren. How's the coffee shop going?

Wink
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