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Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia (Read 7604 times)
Exotic Cheese
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Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Aug 4th, 2008 at 4:15pm
 
I think that both the ADF and the Australian War Memorial, through cultural and intellectual discipline, omit and distort the history of the Vietnam/US war.

The detail given to Australia's involvement in Vietnam starting in the mid 1960s is extensive. What is amusingly ignored however is anything before that, including reality.

The following is a comparrison of, the very limited, words from the ADF and Memorial websites and what I think you would read in a free society with regards to Vietnam history.

Quote:
Australian support for South Vietnam in the early 1960s was in keeping with the policies of other nations, particularly the United States, to stem the spread of communism in Europe and Asia.


Australian support for South Vietnam in the early 1960s was in keeping with the policies of the United states, to stop the threat of economic and social development of Asian peasants and to setup client states wherever possible.

Quote:
In 1961 and 1962 Ngo Dinh Diem, leader of the government in South Vietnam, repeatedly requested security assistance from the US and its allies.


By 1961, Diem under the direct control of Washington had already murdered around 100,000 Vietnamese in a brutal campaign of repression.

Quote:
By early 1965, when it had become clear that South Vietnam could not stave off the communist insurgents and their North Vietnamese comrades for more than a few months...


By early 1965, when it had become clear that South Vietnam now ruled by Washington through a series of military juntas after killing off Diem could not starve off THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF VIETNAM, for more than a few months...

Quote:
the US commenced a major escalation of the war.


The US escalated its invasion of the the country.

ADF...

Quote:
From the late 1950s, a civil war developed in South Vietnam between the communist supported National Liberation Front (NLF) with its military arm the Viet Cong (VC) and the US backed Government of Ngo Dinh Diem


From the late 1950s, Washington began to develop Vietnam in the same fashion that they had just developed El Salvador. The US controlled government of Diem carried out a brutal campaign of violence against the Vietnamese.

Quote:
Due to a deteriorating military situation in South Vietnam in late 1964 and early 1965, the United States proposed the introduction of sizeable ground forces.


Right.... so.... they (further) invaded the smacking country?
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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2008 at 6:40pm by Exotic Cheese »  
 
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #1 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 4:40pm
 
Where did you get the alternative version from?
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Exotic Cheese
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #2 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 4:40pm:
Where did you get the alternative version from?


The alternative version?

The US blocked every single attempt at the peaceful settlement of Vietnam including the boycott of the (UN/world approved, legitimate, fair, etc) election that by all estimates put support for Ho Chi Minh at over about 85% of the country.

The "Vietnam war" was a US war against South Vietnam - thats just a historical truth.

The official line is still according to some places, like the memorial and defence website, that we were helping our benevolent friends the US stop "communism". I'm not saying that anyone is outright lying or that there is some kind of elite conspiracy, its just cultural and institutional arrogance - the war started in 1963/1965 so who cares what happend before that.

Even the Vietnam veteran association of Australia is more open about what actually happened than both the other sources I listed.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #3 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:25pm
 
Exotic Cheese wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:14pm:
The "Vietnam war" was a US war against South Vietnam - thats just a historical truth.

The official line is still according to some places, like the memorial and defence website, that we were helping our benevolent friends the US stop "communism". I'm not saying that anyone is outright lying or that there is some kind of elite conspiracy, its just cultural and institutional arrogance - the war started in 1963/1965 so who cares what happend before that.


A War against North Vietnam do you mean?

It was also true that Robert Menzies pushed for a US involvement in Vietnam as he subscribed to Eisenhower's 'Domino Effect' and feared Australia would be invaded or caught up in a homegrown communist revolution inspired by any success of Ho Chi Minh's.

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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #4 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:48pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:25pm:
Exotic Cheese wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:14pm:
The "Vietnam war" was a US war against South Vietnam - thats just a historical truth.

The official line is still according to some places, like the memorial and defence website, that we were helping our benevolent friends the US stop "communism". I'm not saying that anyone is outright lying or that there is some kind of elite conspiracy, its just cultural and institutional arrogance - the war started in 1963/1965 so who cares what happend before that.


A War against North Vietnam do you mean?


I mean South Vietnam which Kennedy was bombing by 1961.

Quote:
It was also true that Robert Menzies pushed for a US involvement in Vietnam as he subscribed to Eisenhower's 'Domino Effect' and feared Australia would be invaded or caught up in a homegrown communist revolution inspired by any success of Ho Chi Minh's.


The Domino Effect is more or less correct although what Menzies thought wasn't on the US care radar.

The US were afraid that Vietnam would prove an example in the region for independent economic and social development which would go on to threaten their hold of Indonesia and even Japan.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #5 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:57pm
 
As is nearly always the case, no single side is totally right or wrong, and the history by necessity, rarely involves itself in all the minutae which makes up the whole truth.

While the US overplayed the communist threat and the whole domino theory, it was not actually a fabrication, China was very heavily invested in providing as much support as it could to subversive elements throughout south east asia, in a very expansionist exercise.

So while I have no praise for the US position, I also do not ignore the crimes of the Chinese, who were simultaneously killing millions of their own people, as they were attempting to spread their sphere of influence in the region.

History is rarely comprehensively explained from any single source.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #6 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:06pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:57pm:
So while I have no praise for the US position, I also do not ignore the crimes of the Chinese, who were simultaneously killing millions of their own people, as they were attempting to spread their sphere of influence in the region.

History is rarely comprehensively explained from any single source.


It is interesting, though that China tolerates the political systems in Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia etc... without the compulsive desire to invade. Would any US Administration tolerate the proximity of as many competing political systems?
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #7 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:34pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:57pm:
While the US overplayed the communist threat and the whole domino theory, it was not actually a fabrication, China was very heavily invested in providing as much support as it could to subversive elements throughout south east asia, in a very expansionist exercise.


Apart from weapons bought, which by geographical location, could really only come from the north there was no Soviet or Chinese connection to Ho Chi Minh.

We know this because of the now declassified US records which show that the US spent years and virtually redirected all intelligence to finding a link between Minh and the other "communists" and came up with nothing.

The US were not afraid China were going to come down and run the show they were afraid Vietnam would do its own thing and become an example for other people in the region.

Quote:
So while I have no praise for the US position, I also do not ignore the crimes of the Chinese, who were simultaneously killing millions of their own people, as they were attempting to spread their sphere of influence in the region.


I don't ignore the atrocities of any states but in the context of this discussion I don't think they are relevant.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #8 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:36pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:06pm:
[quote author=mozzaok link=1217830559/0#5 date=1217843844]
Would any US Administration tolerate the proximity of as many competing political systems?


We know they didn't from what they did to almost all of Latin America.  Sad
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #9 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:43pm
 
I thought there were clear links between NVN and the Chinese and the Soviets, due to the fact that both China and the USSR were supplying the North with weapons and other aid.

Also, according to a guy I know who was in Vietnam in 1966, there was one 'big white guy' who was often seen running around with the Vietcong or maybe NVA, I'm not sure, who they assumed was a Russian advisor.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #10 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:55pm
 
Exotic Cheese wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:36pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:06pm:
[quote author=mozzaok link=1217830559/0#5 date=1217843844]
Would any US Administration tolerate the proximity of as many competing political systems?


We know they didn't from what they did to almost all of Latin America.  Sad


Exactly.

Consider the absurd geo-political theory aimed at justifying the overthrow of the Allende government – The ‘Red Sandwich’ theory.

Citing the warning of an unnamed Italian businessman, Richard Nixon said in his memoirs that an Allende in power in Chile, combined with Fidel Castro in Cuba, would make "Latin America a red sandwich”. The absurd logic being that Allende and Castro would, between them, trigger a domino effect in Latin America.

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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #11 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:04pm
 
We are talking about over fifty years ago Helian, that is when the ideological battle between communism and capitalism resurfaced after WW2.

Vietnam was a french colony, and the poverty in the region was legend.

Communism rose up in China as a response to this poverty, simultaneously, the Vietnamese started a cn independence movement which soon garnered support from the communist chinese.

We saw Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, all going communist, the Domino Theory was enunciated and a rsponse demanded by many.

Vietnam was chosen as the venue to stop this spread of communism.

We will never know what the result would have been if Vietnam had been left unchallenged, would this have seen an emboldened communist movement seek further gains in the region?
Quite possibly, as usual we can criticise what was done, for having gone too far, but we will never know what the consequences of inaction would have been.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #12 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:04pm
 
easel wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:43pm:
I thought there were clear links between NVN and the Chinese and the Soviets, due to the fact that both China and the USSR were supplying the North with weapons and other aid.


There was an influx of weapons from the north but as far as any political connections go, there were none.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #13 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:10pm
 
You cannot be serious ?

The Chinese had very long and strong relationships, including, political, and military, with the communist insurgents.

I never even expected anyone would challenge that as a fact.
The Russians sent advisors to assist them in their struggle also, it was a true ideological battleground.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #14 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:16pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:04pm:
We saw Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, all going communist, the Domino Theory was enunciated and a rsponse demanded by many.

Vietnam was chosen as the venue to stop this spread of communism.

We will never know what the result would have been if Vietnam had been left unchallenged, would this have seen an emboldened communist movement seek further gains in the region?
Quite possibly, as usual we can criticise what was done, for having gone too far, but we will never know what the consequences of inaction would have been.


What we do know is that the massive bombing of Vietnam was nothing short of a war crime for which the Vietnamese have not even received an apology.

The effect of this bombing, 35 years later, (and Agent Orange) on the land and the people can still be seen.

The locals must wonder what they did to deserve it.... something about a game called dominos, they're told.

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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #15 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:16pm
 
From what I was told by people who were in that part of the world around that time frame, in a non military and more a political role, essentially every country was at there at some point in some capacity either assisting or observing.

Also, the North were pretty bad. Ok, yeah the USA did the odd massacre or two (My Lai), but the NVA and Vietcong systematically killed civilians and had it in their doctrine to do so to anyone who did not submit to their political persuasions.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #16 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:19pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:10pm:
You cannot be serious ?

The Chinese had very long and strong relationships, including, political, and military, with the communist insurgents.

I never even expected anyone would challenge that as a fact.
The Russians sent advisors to assist them in their struggle also, it was a true ideological battleground.


The Chinese and Vietnamese are traditional enemies. No doubt the Vietnamese were caught between a war of attrition with the US and possible domination by an ancient mortal enemy.

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Reply #17 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:20pm
 
The Chinese and Vietnamese had a war after the Vietnam war was over.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #18 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:30pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:10pm:
You cannot be serious ?

The Chinese had very long and strong relationships, including, political, and military, with the communist insurgents.

I never even expected anyone would challenge that as a fact.
The Russians sent advisors to assist them in their struggle also, it was a true ideological battleground.


No it wasn't.

Ho Chi Minh was not taking orders from or allied to Russia or China and the evidence comes straight from extensive US internal dialogue where it shows they spent massive resources on trying to find a direct connection between North Vietnam and Russia/China and about the best thing they came up with was finding a Russian newspaper in the Vietnamese embassy in Thailand.

They then went on to theorize that because there were no obvious links with either country that THAT proved he WAS actually allied to them and that he was such a loyal agent that no contact was even needed.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #19 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 10:12pm
 
easel wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:16pm:
Also, the North were pretty bad. Ok, yeah the USA did the odd massacre or two (My Lai), but the NVA and Vietcong systematically killed civilians and had it in their doctrine to do so to anyone who did not submit to their political persuasions.


The USA were 'pretty bad'? They invaded Indochina and killed 6+ million peasants and left their children being born with fifth limbs for generations.

The majority of NVA/"Vietcong" atrocity claims have no evidence, which isn't to say they didn't commit massive crimes also, but the comparrison is ridiculous.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #20 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 10:33pm
 
Wow, this Thread needs JW Frogen.  Let me see if I can wake him.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #21 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 11:16pm
 
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #22 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 12:31am
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 11:16pm:


If you want a proper account of individual massacres you would be better off with Atrocities in Vietnam: Myths and realities by Edward S. Herman.

I'm not really sure how its relevant all sides of war end up committing terrible acts - I'm certainly not arguing against that.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #23 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 10:03am
 
I am amazed at how some here seem to believe that the North Vietnamese had the logistical capability to wage war on a massive scale without foreign aid.
Here is a small quote from the Wikipedia page on the Vietnam war.

"Support by the Soviet bloc and China

Communist bloc support was vital for prosecution of the war in the South. North Vietnam had relatively little industrial base. The gap was filled primarily by China and Russia. The Soviet Union was the largest supplier of war aid, furnishing most fuel, munitions, and heavy equipment, including advanced air defense systems. China made significant contributions in medicines, hospital care, training facilities, foodstuffs, and infantry weapons.

Since China bordered Vietnam, it was an immensely important conduit of material on land, although the Soviets also delivered some of its aid by sea. Soviet aid outstripped that of China, averaging over half a billion dollars per year in the later stages of the war, with some $700 million in 1967 alone.[7] China provided an estimated 150 million to 200 million annually, along with such in-kind aid as the deployment of thousands of troops in road and railway construction in the border provinces.[8] China also provided radar stations and airfields where North Vietnamese aircraft could marshall for attack, or flee to when in trouble against American air forces. These airbases were off-limits to American retaliation.[9]

The railway network in the Chinese provinces bordering North Vietnam was of vital importance in importing war material. American Rules of Engagement forbid strikes against this network for fear of provoking Chinese intervention. Thousands of Chinese troops (the PLA's 1st and 2nd Divisions) made important contributions to Hanoi's war effort- building or repairing hundreds of miles of track and numerous other facilities such as bridges, tunnels, stations and marshalling yards. Chinese troops also built bunkers and other fortifications, and manned dozens of anti-aircraft batteries. In all, some 320,000 Chinese soldiers served in Vietnam during the war.[10]"

Plus a link to the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLF_and_PAVN_logistics_and_equipment

I am always opposed to war, but I do not ascribe to the simplistic view that one side or the other, is ever solely to blame.

Like most things, it is about the shades of grey, black and white can not provide the full picture.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #24 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 2:50pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 5th, 2008 at 10:03am:
I am always opposed to war, but I do not ascribe to the simplistic view that one side or the other, is ever solely to blame.

Like most things, it is about the shades of grey, black and white can not provide the full picture.


Do you think, then that the Vietnamese to some degree brought the war on themselves?

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Reply #25 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 4:34pm
 
Of course they were.

I think you really meant to ask if they had a just cause to do so.

If that was what you meant, I would say that I believe they did.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #26 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 5:48pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 5th, 2008 at 4:34pm:
I am always opposed to war, but I do not ascribe to the simplistic view that one side or the other, is ever solely to blame.

Like most things, it is about the shades of grey, black and white can not provide the full picture.

Of course they were.

I think you really meant to ask if they had a just cause to do so.

If that was what you meant, I would say that I believe they did.


Would you say that the rise of militant Islam against the West is in some part due to Western aggression against Islamic nations? Did the US sort of get what it deserved on 9/11?

Should Australia "pay" for its involvement in an unsanctioned war in Iraq?
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #27 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:30pm
 
Do you really think I won't recognise loaded questions Helian?

That is far more insulting than calling people names, because you just assume they are stupid bigots.

Nobody deserves a terrorist attack.

What you probably should have asked is if I believe US foreign policy played a significant role in the rise of militant Islam.

That gets a qualified yes, but not as the initiator of the movement, but rather as an irritant, and in it's role to provide a focus for their grievances.
More rightly we would see the rise of militant Islam as a reaction from extreme conservatives who wished to stop the spread of liberalism, and western cultural influences.

Now as to whether Australia should pay for it's role in Iraq, I think we are, and will continue to for many years to come.

The aid required to help rebuild a country so devastated by war will be immense, and I expect we will contribute as we do to many foreign countries in need.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #28 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 8:24pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:30pm:
Nobody deserves a terrorist attack.


As neither did the Vietnamese deserve a bombing campaign that saw nearly four million tons of bombs dropped on the country.

mozzaok wrote on Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:30pm:
The aid required to help rebuild a country so devastated by war will be immense, and I expect we will contribute as we do to many foreign countries in need.


Particularly when we have had a hand in making them needy.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #29 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 9:36pm
 
I think we would have been better off becoming involved in Vietnam, on the side of Uncle Ho, when he was more of a nationalist than a communist, in his fight with the French. The western democratic world should have provided diplomatic and even military support, troops on the ground, and kicked the French out.

I'm always stunned that a country that surrendered in weeks, brought less than 100% of its own military power to the fight to stop its own invasion and other than the efforts of its exaggerated resistance movement waited for the rest of the western world to rescue it. Then proceeded to throw its weight around with its former colonies, rejecting their right to autonomy, offer sacturay to tens of thousands of former SS and Nazis with the dark purpose of murdering freedom in Asia and Algeria.

I would also like to see the evidence as to the lack of Chinese and Soviet support for N.V. I find it hard to believe that they would have been able to maintain the fight even taking into account everything that the US political system did to try and lose.

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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #30 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 2:43am
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 5th, 2008 at 10:03am:
I am amazed at how some here seem to believe that the North Vietnamese had the logistical capability to wage war on a massive scale without foreign aid.


Didn't say that.

Quote:
Here is a small quote from the Wikipedia page on the Vietnam war.

"Support by the Soviet bloc and China

Communist bloc support was vital for prosecution of the war in the South. North Vietnam had relatively little industrial base. The gap was filled primarily by China and Russia. The Soviet Union was the largest supplier of war aid, furnishing most fuel, munitions, and heavy equipment, including advanced air defense systems. China made significant contributions in medicines, hospital care, training facilities, foodstuffs, and infantry weapons.

Since China bordered Vietnam, it was an immensely important conduit of material on land, although the Soviets also delivered some of its aid by sea. Soviet aid outstripped that of China, averaging over half a billion dollars per year in the later stages of the war, with some $700 million in 1967 alone.[7] China provided an estimated 150 million to 200 million annually, along with such in-kind aid as the deployment of thousands of troops in road and railway construction in the border provinces.[8] China also provided radar stations and airfields where North Vietnamese aircraft could marshall for attack, or flee to when in trouble against American air forces. These airbases were off-limits to American retaliation.[9]

The railway network in the Chinese provinces bordering North Vietnam was of vital importance in importing war material. American Rules of Engagement forbid strikes against this network for fear of provoking Chinese intervention. Thousands of Chinese troops (the PLA's 1st and 2nd Divisions) made important contributions to Hanoi's war effort- building or repairing hundreds of miles of track and numerous other facilities such as bridges, tunnels, stations and marshalling yards. Chinese troops also built bunkers and other fortifications, and manned dozens of anti-aircraft batteries. In all, some 320,000 Chinese soldiers served in Vietnam during the war.[10]"

Plus a link to the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLF_and_PAVN_logistics_and_equipment


Yeah North Vietnam got military equipment from the north.

Excuse me while I remember the time line again...

Country split in two
-
North Vietnam sit around doing nothing
-
US attempt to turn South Vietnam into Panama or El Salvador (we can continue the list)
-
The US remove South Vietnam from the world approved election that would have unified Vietnam under the 'North' Vietnamese government
-
Having sat, literally, through years of slaughter the Vietnamese people finally implement violence as a dominant method of defense
-
Crumbling under the weight of the population the US kill off the dictator and run a series of military juntas
-
Still unable to dominate the region they invade the country South Vietnam, then attack North Vietnam and in the end drop more bombs than in all of WW2, kill 6+ million people and leave the children of peasant farmers with peeling skin and no eyes at birth.

In a world which lacked hypocrisy or at least operated on basic moral principles every decent society on earth should have been sending some form of aid to, if not North Vietnam, than the nationalist Vietnamese movement.

When things started tumbling down for Russia and they started selling everything, one valuable item was the internal records. It spawned virtually a whole academic field just looking through trying to find justifications for bullshit the US pulled off during the century. Combine this with declassified US records, i.e. Pentagon papers.

We know what they were all thinking and who was talking to who, or lack there of. Find the part where it was a magical battle of ideology, find the part where Ho Chi Minh was just an agent of the 'mother land', find the part where the spread of crazy communism! was violently making its way south.

footnote: China and Russia didn't like each other at the time.

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I am always opposed to war, but I do not ascribe to the simplistic view that one side or the other, is ever solely to blame.

Like most things, it is about the shades of grey, black and white can not provide the full picture.


People need to let go of poor schooling, the massive 80s propaganda (thanks Chuck Norris), revisionist history and the fairy tale of most of the poo that supposedly happened under the umbrella of the "cold war".

There could not be a more clear example of "the supreme crime of aggression" in the last 60 years... except for all the other times the US did it.  Lips Sealed
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Exotic Cheese
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #31 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 2:55am
 
Another observation similar to the original topic...

By the late 50s the US had directly killed at least 70,000 Vietnamese people. Find a recount or explanation of the Vietnam war in American literature that doesn't first mention that 58,000 US soldiers died (for the entirety of the conflict) before mentioning, if at all, the deaths of anyone else.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #32 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 7:31am
 
Exotic Cheese wrote on Aug 6th, 2008 at 2:43am:
There could not be a more clear example of "the supreme crime of aggression" in the last 60 years... except for all the other times the US did it.


Doubtless the clearest example of lethal American hubris, replete as it is with its dramatic nemesis in the form of ultimate defeat and an ignominious withdrawal.

"In the end there were just too many to kill".

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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #33 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 8:43am
 
I can see you guys are 'Grey Blind'.

Few have been more consistently critical of the arrogant and criminal behaviour of US foreign policy since WW2 than myself.

I raise your criticism for merely pointing out that they are not alone in promoting ideological conflicts which cost innocents dearly.

I still find it staggering that anyone can demonise so completely one side of a conflict, without even a cursory examination of what mitigating circumstances were involved.
It denigrates arguments  into being  more like the ideological spruiking, which was at the root of the initial conflicts.

To categorise the west as totally wrong, is to ignore that communism had any expansionist agenda also.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #34 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 9:08am
 
I was recently watching a dvd of the famous Frost / Nixon interview and was amazed to hear Nixon blaming Johnson for the bombing of Vietnam – while totally ignoring his own covert bombing campaign (Operation Menu, which he’d tried to keep from the American people) that saw 2.75 million tons of bombs dropped – nearly 3 times as many as Johnson’s Operations Flaming Dart and Rolling Thunder.

Nixon’s campaign hastened the destabilization of Cambodia and the rise of the Khmer Rouge that went on to inflict a killing machine on the Cambodian people, the likes of which hadn’t been seen since Nazi Germany.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #35 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 9:26am
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 6th, 2008 at 8:43am:
I can see you guys are 'Grey Blind'.

I still find it staggering that anyone can demonise so completely one side of a conflict, without even a cursory examination of what mitigating circumstances were involved.
It denigrates arguments  into being  more like the ideological spruiking, which was at the root of the initial conflicts.


Just being even-handed is it?
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #36 - Aug 6th, 2008 at 3:59pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 6th, 2008 at 8:43am:
I can see you guys are 'Grey Blind'.

Few have been more consistently critical of the arrogant and criminal behaviour of US foreign policy since WW2 than myself.

I raise your criticism for merely pointing out that they are not alone in promoting ideological conflicts which cost innocents dearly.


Like the Soviet expansion into Eastern Europe and central Asia.

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I still find it staggering that anyone can demonise so completely one side of a conflict, without even a cursory examination of what mitigating circumstances were involved.


What were the mitigating circumstances?

North Vietnamese aggression? Ho Chi Minh as an agent for the Kremlin?

"The U.S invasion of South Vietnam was just as much an invasion as the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. If anyone else had done it thats how we would have described it"

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It denigrates arguments  into being  more like the ideological spruiking, which was at the root of the initial conflicts.

To categorise the west as totally wrong, is to ignore that communism had any expansionist agenda also.


What communism?

The definition of communism that the Soviets and the US agreed upon for differing reasons? aka Bolshevism/Leninism/Maoism/not actually communism?

'Communism' can't have an expansionist agenda, only Soviet Russia can, and there are plenty of examples but Vietnam was not one example as we now know from the internal records of both countries.
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