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Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia (Read 7603 times)
Exotic Cheese
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Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Aug 4th, 2008 at 4:15pm
 
I think that both the ADF and the Australian War Memorial, through cultural and intellectual discipline, omit and distort the history of the Vietnam/US war.

The detail given to Australia's involvement in Vietnam starting in the mid 1960s is extensive. What is amusingly ignored however is anything before that, including reality.

The following is a comparrison of, the very limited, words from the ADF and Memorial websites and what I think you would read in a free society with regards to Vietnam history.

Quote:
Australian support for South Vietnam in the early 1960s was in keeping with the policies of other nations, particularly the United States, to stem the spread of communism in Europe and Asia.


Australian support for South Vietnam in the early 1960s was in keeping with the policies of the United states, to stop the threat of economic and social development of Asian peasants and to setup client states wherever possible.

Quote:
In 1961 and 1962 Ngo Dinh Diem, leader of the government in South Vietnam, repeatedly requested security assistance from the US and its allies.


By 1961, Diem under the direct control of Washington had already murdered around 100,000 Vietnamese in a brutal campaign of repression.

Quote:
By early 1965, when it had become clear that South Vietnam could not stave off the communist insurgents and their North Vietnamese comrades for more than a few months...


By early 1965, when it had become clear that South Vietnam now ruled by Washington through a series of military juntas after killing off Diem could not starve off THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF VIETNAM, for more than a few months...

Quote:
the US commenced a major escalation of the war.


The US escalated its invasion of the the country.

ADF...

Quote:
From the late 1950s, a civil war developed in South Vietnam between the communist supported National Liberation Front (NLF) with its military arm the Viet Cong (VC) and the US backed Government of Ngo Dinh Diem


From the late 1950s, Washington began to develop Vietnam in the same fashion that they had just developed El Salvador. The US controlled government of Diem carried out a brutal campaign of violence against the Vietnamese.

Quote:
Due to a deteriorating military situation in South Vietnam in late 1964 and early 1965, the United States proposed the introduction of sizeable ground forces.


Right.... so.... they (further) invaded the smacking country?
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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2008 at 6:40pm by Exotic Cheese »  
 
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freediver
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #1 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 4:40pm
 
Where did you get the alternative version from?
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Exotic Cheese
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #2 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 4:40pm:
Where did you get the alternative version from?


The alternative version?

The US blocked every single attempt at the peaceful settlement of Vietnam including the boycott of the (UN/world approved, legitimate, fair, etc) election that by all estimates put support for Ho Chi Minh at over about 85% of the country.

The "Vietnam war" was a US war against South Vietnam - thats just a historical truth.

The official line is still according to some places, like the memorial and defence website, that we were helping our benevolent friends the US stop "communism". I'm not saying that anyone is outright lying or that there is some kind of elite conspiracy, its just cultural and institutional arrogance - the war started in 1963/1965 so who cares what happend before that.

Even the Vietnam veteran association of Australia is more open about what actually happened than both the other sources I listed.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #3 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:25pm
 
Exotic Cheese wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:14pm:
The "Vietnam war" was a US war against South Vietnam - thats just a historical truth.

The official line is still according to some places, like the memorial and defence website, that we were helping our benevolent friends the US stop "communism". I'm not saying that anyone is outright lying or that there is some kind of elite conspiracy, its just cultural and institutional arrogance - the war started in 1963/1965 so who cares what happend before that.


A War against North Vietnam do you mean?

It was also true that Robert Menzies pushed for a US involvement in Vietnam as he subscribed to Eisenhower's 'Domino Effect' and feared Australia would be invaded or caught up in a homegrown communist revolution inspired by any success of Ho Chi Minh's.

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Exotic Cheese
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #4 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:48pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:25pm:
Exotic Cheese wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:14pm:
The "Vietnam war" was a US war against South Vietnam - thats just a historical truth.

The official line is still according to some places, like the memorial and defence website, that we were helping our benevolent friends the US stop "communism". I'm not saying that anyone is outright lying or that there is some kind of elite conspiracy, its just cultural and institutional arrogance - the war started in 1963/1965 so who cares what happend before that.


A War against North Vietnam do you mean?


I mean South Vietnam which Kennedy was bombing by 1961.

Quote:
It was also true that Robert Menzies pushed for a US involvement in Vietnam as he subscribed to Eisenhower's 'Domino Effect' and feared Australia would be invaded or caught up in a homegrown communist revolution inspired by any success of Ho Chi Minh's.


The Domino Effect is more or less correct although what Menzies thought wasn't on the US care radar.

The US were afraid that Vietnam would prove an example in the region for independent economic and social development which would go on to threaten their hold of Indonesia and even Japan.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #5 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:57pm
 
As is nearly always the case, no single side is totally right or wrong, and the history by necessity, rarely involves itself in all the minutae which makes up the whole truth.

While the US overplayed the communist threat and the whole domino theory, it was not actually a fabrication, China was very heavily invested in providing as much support as it could to subversive elements throughout south east asia, in a very expansionist exercise.

So while I have no praise for the US position, I also do not ignore the crimes of the Chinese, who were simultaneously killing millions of their own people, as they were attempting to spread their sphere of influence in the region.

History is rarely comprehensively explained from any single source.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #6 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:06pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:57pm:
So while I have no praise for the US position, I also do not ignore the crimes of the Chinese, who were simultaneously killing millions of their own people, as they were attempting to spread their sphere of influence in the region.

History is rarely comprehensively explained from any single source.


It is interesting, though that China tolerates the political systems in Thailand, Cambodia, Indonesia etc... without the compulsive desire to invade. Would any US Administration tolerate the proximity of as many competing political systems?
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Exotic Cheese
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #7 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:34pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:57pm:
While the US overplayed the communist threat and the whole domino theory, it was not actually a fabrication, China was very heavily invested in providing as much support as it could to subversive elements throughout south east asia, in a very expansionist exercise.


Apart from weapons bought, which by geographical location, could really only come from the north there was no Soviet or Chinese connection to Ho Chi Minh.

We know this because of the now declassified US records which show that the US spent years and virtually redirected all intelligence to finding a link between Minh and the other "communists" and came up with nothing.

The US were not afraid China were going to come down and run the show they were afraid Vietnam would do its own thing and become an example for other people in the region.

Quote:
So while I have no praise for the US position, I also do not ignore the crimes of the Chinese, who were simultaneously killing millions of their own people, as they were attempting to spread their sphere of influence in the region.


I don't ignore the atrocities of any states but in the context of this discussion I don't think they are relevant.
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Exotic Cheese
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #8 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:36pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:06pm:
[quote author=mozzaok link=1217830559/0#5 date=1217843844]
Would any US Administration tolerate the proximity of as many competing political systems?


We know they didn't from what they did to almost all of Latin America.  Sad
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #9 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:43pm
 
I thought there were clear links between NVN and the Chinese and the Soviets, due to the fact that both China and the USSR were supplying the North with weapons and other aid.

Also, according to a guy I know who was in Vietnam in 1966, there was one 'big white guy' who was often seen running around with the Vietcong or maybe NVA, I'm not sure, who they assumed was a Russian advisor.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #10 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:55pm
 
Exotic Cheese wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:36pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:06pm:
[quote author=mozzaok link=1217830559/0#5 date=1217843844]
Would any US Administration tolerate the proximity of as many competing political systems?


We know they didn't from what they did to almost all of Latin America.  Sad


Exactly.

Consider the absurd geo-political theory aimed at justifying the overthrow of the Allende government – The ‘Red Sandwich’ theory.

Citing the warning of an unnamed Italian businessman, Richard Nixon said in his memoirs that an Allende in power in Chile, combined with Fidel Castro in Cuba, would make "Latin America a red sandwich”. The absurd logic being that Allende and Castro would, between them, trigger a domino effect in Latin America.

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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #11 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:04pm
 
We are talking about over fifty years ago Helian, that is when the ideological battle between communism and capitalism resurfaced after WW2.

Vietnam was a french colony, and the poverty in the region was legend.

Communism rose up in China as a response to this poverty, simultaneously, the Vietnamese started a cn independence movement which soon garnered support from the communist chinese.

We saw Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, all going communist, the Domino Theory was enunciated and a rsponse demanded by many.

Vietnam was chosen as the venue to stop this spread of communism.

We will never know what the result would have been if Vietnam had been left unchallenged, would this have seen an emboldened communist movement seek further gains in the region?
Quite possibly, as usual we can criticise what was done, for having gone too far, but we will never know what the consequences of inaction would have been.
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Exotic Cheese
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #12 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:04pm
 
easel wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 8:43pm:
I thought there were clear links between NVN and the Chinese and the Soviets, due to the fact that both China and the USSR were supplying the North with weapons and other aid.


There was an influx of weapons from the north but as far as any political connections go, there were none.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #13 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:10pm
 
You cannot be serious ?

The Chinese had very long and strong relationships, including, political, and military, with the communist insurgents.

I never even expected anyone would challenge that as a fact.
The Russians sent advisors to assist them in their struggle also, it was a true ideological battleground.
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Re: Vietnam War - Historical Amnesia
Reply #14 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:16pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:04pm:
We saw Korea, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia, all going communist, the Domino Theory was enunciated and a rsponse demanded by many.

Vietnam was chosen as the venue to stop this spread of communism.

We will never know what the result would have been if Vietnam had been left unchallenged, would this have seen an emboldened communist movement seek further gains in the region?
Quite possibly, as usual we can criticise what was done, for having gone too far, but we will never know what the consequences of inaction would have been.


What we do know is that the massive bombing of Vietnam was nothing short of a war crime for which the Vietnamese have not even received an apology.

The effect of this bombing, 35 years later, (and Agent Orange) on the land and the people can still be seen.

The locals must wonder what they did to deserve it.... something about a game called dominos, they're told.

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« Last Edit: Aug 4th, 2008 at 9:26pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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