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Poll Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?

Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed    
  11 (55.0%)
Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops    
  4 (20.0%)
Something else    
  5 (25.0%)




Total votes: 20
« Created by: freediver on: Oct 9th, 2014 at 12:43pm »

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Is Islam against free speech? (Read 157367 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #300 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:24am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:57pm:
Islam has NO history of freedom or speech or freedom of anything. Islam is against freedom of every kind.


Except of course when they did...

The evidence is there Soren, whether you choose to look at it or not.

It simply defies all common sense to dismiss the greatest intellectual centres the world had ever seen as happening under an empire that was "against freedom of every kind".
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #301 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:45am
 
I find it very interesting how much people like Soren deny reality.  It makes a very interesting example of a psychosis.    Shocked
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #302 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 3:12am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:45am:
I find it very interesting how much people like Soren deny reality.  It makes a very interesting example of a psychosis.    Shocked


Actually, he’s a textbook case of hysteria. Lucky they invented the talking cure, eh?

Best to stay neutral and encourage him to free associate. He’s a dab hand with a plate of Mormor’s stool. Most creative. This type’s known in the trade as a smearer.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #303 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 11:21am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:45am:
I find it very interesting how much people like Soren deny reality.  It makes a very interesting example of a psychosis.    Shocked


Is he treating himself?   Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #304 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm
 
Quote:
"mainstream" virtually all of western civilization expressed a clear disgust with the Muhammad cartoons


Like I have pointed out several times in response to this BS argument - that is the very definition of freedom of speech - the right to say something you might not like. People expressed disgust with piss christ also. This does not mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery. By making this argument you merely demonstrate the inability of Muslims to even comprehend what freedom of speech means. I invite you to respond to this, rather than simply ignoring it then repeating yourself after a few pages of desperately trying to change the topic.

Quote:
What surveys do you have of, say, the muslim community in Australia on this matter? As far as I know they haven't been done.


How is this for a starting point. You said you would be able to find some of our Muslim leaders standing up for the right to depict and mock Muhammed, as well as non-Muslims in opposition to this right. So far you have found neither, and have even given an example of the opposite instead, and insisted we must "interpret" what he says as support for freedom of speech.

Quote:
But since we don't have any surveys of Australian muslims attitudes on whether they think people should have the right to publish them, you can't make any judgements about them on that front.


We have their silence in the face of violent and effective attacks on our freedom of speech by other Muslims. I know you can be very creative with your interpretation efforts Gandalf, so interpret away.

Quote:
All we have is beheading placards and such


We have both violent and non-violent attempts by Muslims to destroy our freedom of speech. Again, this has been pointed out to you, over and over again. In addition, we have you pretending to support the right, then qualifying it heavily, then running away from the issue. We have a very long list of bad signs from a variety of Muslims on the issue, and no effort by Muslims to even say the opposite.

Quote:
What we also have is surveys from the 18c debate, which I have posted before, that show massive majorities of Australian society who oppose removing the words "offend" and "insult" on the basis of race, nationality or ethnicity.


So drawing a cartoon of Muhammed is racist now?
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #305 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 1:21pm
 
I thought Brian had shown that "Piss Christ" was a really, really bad example for Islamophobes to try and use.  I mean with George Pell trying to force the removal of the work of art using blasphemy laws and all that...   Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #306 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 2:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm:
Like I have pointed out several times in response to this BS argument - that is the very definition of freedom of speech - the right to say something you might not like.


Not when the same people said they should not have even been published, and especially not when other surveys demonstrate a very strong sentiment within society that there should be laws in place to protect people being offended on the basis of religion.

I have painted you a picture of mainstream non-muslim society - based on actual facts. Whether you agree with that assemssment or not, you haven't been able to demonstrate any real distinctions between this society and mainstream muslim society because there are no known facts about mainstream Australian muslim society - at least none that have been presented here. And yet here you are making these breathtaking statements like mainstream muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" based on nothing at all - and thinking you can justify it by your "name one muslim..." schtick. Oh the arrogance.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm:
This does not mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery.


A survey saying a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery does... well... mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm:
How is this for a starting point. You said you would be able to find some of our Muslim leaders standing up for the right to depict and mock Muhammed, as well as non-Muslims in opposition to this right.


No I didn't, and its irrelevant.

Hows this for a starting point: prove your own bloody claims. Show me a survey of mainstream muslim attitudes that sets them apart from mainstream non-muslim attitudes.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm:
We have their silence in the face of violent and effective attacks on our freedom of speech by other Muslims.


As opposed to the screaming howls of protest by non-muslims in the face of effetive attacks on our freedom? Show me one protest against George Brandis boasting that denying a particular event in history will remain "unlawful". Never mind FD, if all else fails you can always throw in Barak Obama's irrelevant comments, or what Gandalf didn't say, or your good ol' trusty "name one muslim..." routine.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:30pm:
We have both violent and non-violent attempts by Muslims to destroy our freedom of speech. Again, this has been pointed out to you, over and over again.


Indeed it has - and the irrelevance of this point to claiming mainstream Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" has also been pointed out to you,

...over and over again

Quote:
we have you pretending to support the right, then qualifying it heavily, then running away from the issue.


Give me one piece of evidence that indicates my position is in any meaningful way out of step with mainstream Australian opinion. You can't, because its not. You are the only one here who has views on freedom that are out of step with the mainstream.
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« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2014 at 3:06pm by polite_gandalf »  

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #307 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm
 
Quote:
Not when the same people said they should not have even been published


Yes, even when those people say they should not have been published, but still acknowledge their right to do so. You even admitted this, but you got all confused because you put their opposition to it being published in front of them acknowledging the right to publish. In my opinion that is the strongest possible acknowledgement of the primacy of the right to free speech - when it is tested with something you think should not have been published and would choose not to publish yourself. You describe it as 'begrudging' acceptance of free speech as if this somehow downplays their support for freedom of speech. It does the opposite. Not understanding what freedom of speech really means, you get it backwards.

Quote:
I have painted you a picture of mainstream non-muslim society - based on actual facts.


Sure, you start with facts, then put it through your Islamic filter of complete miscomprehension of freedom of speech.

Quote:
Whether you agree with that assemssment or not, you haven't been able to demonstrate any real distinctions between this society and mainstream muslim society because there are no known facts about mainstream Australian muslim society - at least none that have been presented here.


Crap. You desperately ignore the evidence I post over and over again. I have presented a long list of evidence. Your own evidence even backs up my case, like when you presented Muslim leader failing to mention freedom of speech as an example of a Muslim leader speaking out in support of freedom of speech, or when you cited people accepting the primacy of freedom of speech in the context of something they find personally distasteful as evidence that they somehow devalue freedom of speech. The evidence is not lacking, only your comprehension.

Quote:
And yet here you are making these breathtaking statements like mainstream muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" based on nothing at all - and thinking you can justify it by your "name one muslim..." schtick. Oh the arrogance.


Even Annie acknowledged I was right on this point, and that it is a genuine problem. You are in a desperate state of denial Gandalf.

Quote:
A survey saying a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery does... well... mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery.


Except it doesn't. You even acknowledged this about the survey when you first put it up.

Quote:
No I didn't, and its irrelevant.


Yes you did, several times, and it is what this thread is about.

Quote:
Hows this for a starting point: prove your own bloody claims.


These are my claims - some Muslims oppose the right to depict and mock Muhammed with violence and threats of violence. Some oppose it through legal channels. Some are silent. Some, like you, pretend to support freedom of speech, but qualify it heavily, then run away when pressed on the issue. Which of these claims would you like me to prove?

Quote:
Show me a survey of mainstream muslim attitudes that sets them apart from mainstream non-muslim attitudes.


You are the one claiming the have a survey to back up your claims, not me. You have not presented it. By your own admission, it demonstrates the opposite of what you claim.

Quote:
As opposed to the screaming howls of protest by non-muslims in the face of effetive attacks on our freedom?


Many of the protests were published right here on this forum Gandalf.

Quote:
if all else fails you can always throw in Barak Obama's irrelevant comments


They are relevant, because they directly contradict some of your claims about the western response to attacks by Muslims on our freedom of speech.

Quote:
or what Gandalf didn't say, or your good ol' trusty "name one muslim..." routine.


The fact that you cannot present even one Muslim who fits into the mainstream on this issue, or one single non-Muslim who sides with the Muslims, is entirely relevant.

Quote:
Give me one piece of evidence that indicates my position is in any meaningful way out of step with mainstream Australian opinion.


Sure, your inability to comprehend your own evidence, for example:

Quote:
A survey saying a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery does... well... mean they support the government trying to place religion beyond criticism or mockery.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #308 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 7:36pm
 
Ok, let's resolve this poo. It's all in the definitions. What is "Islam" for the purposes of this debate? Is it the brand that the sword shakers espouse, the death-to-infidels type? Or is it the live-and-let-live brand practiced by the saner muslims? Or, does it include both? That will put this tired old topic to bed.

FD's definition of Islam is the fundies' definition - what the sword shakers espouse. gandalf's definition is the progressive one that says the Quran is to be interpreted throught the lens of the author's context.

So, Muslims who adhere to FD's definition are absolutely against free speech - anyone who says something contrary to what they or their brand of islam teaches should be beheaded. Thus, FD is partially correct.

And, Muslims who adhere to gandalf's definition don't really care what people think about their religion - they recognise that it is not theirs to judge, and that God is quite capable of looking out for himself. These people are for free speech, so gandalf is also partially right.

Question answered. Thread solved. Move on - next question?


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See Profile For Update wrote on Jan 3rd, 2015 at 2:58pm:
Why the bugger did I get stuck on a planet chalked full of imbeciles?
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #309 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 8:20pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 12:24am:
Soren wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:57pm:
Islam has NO history of freedom or speech or freedom of anything. Islam is against freedom of every kind.


Except of course when they did...

The evidence is there Soren, whether you choose to look at it or not.

It simply defies all common sense to dismiss the greatest intellectual centres the world had ever seen as happening under an empire that was "against freedom of every kind".



You go and publish a cartoon of Mohammed here in Australia in a newspaper or magazine or play the Mohammed youtube vid on the ABC and see what happens.

The 'greatest intellectual centres' 1000 years ago give you no excuse for the way Islam is today.





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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #310 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 9:18pm
 
Quote:
Show me one protest against George Brandis boasting that denying a particular event in history will remain "unlawful"


The wikipedia article about the guy who went to jail over it lists some Australian organisations campaigning for the right.

Quote:
And, Muslims who adhere to gandalf's definition don't really care what people think about their religion - they recognise that it is not theirs to judge, and that God is quite capable of looking out for himself. These people are for free speech, so gandalf is also partially right.


Not even Gandalf will support people's right to depict and mock Muhammed without qualifying it to the point of meaninglessness. When I say that Gandalf is unable to cite a single Australian Muslim leader supporting the right, I mean by his own definition of Islam. He gets to choose from whatever Muslims he wants, to find a mere one willing to utter the same words as Barak Obama - one of the most Muslim-friendly politicians in US history. Words that he insists that no non-Muslims will utter either, despite all the bleeding obvious examples.

Quote:
Question answered. Thread solved. Move on - next question?


LOL. Spoken like a Muslim.

I have made some updates to the wiki:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Statistic...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Freedom

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Secularis...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Denying_s...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Reinterpr...
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« Last Edit: Oct 13th, 2014 at 9:39pm by freediver »  

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #311 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 11:54pm
 
You use your wiki as a method of intimidation, FD.  Your hubris in presuming to claim you understand Islam is quite amazing.  All you're doing is displaying is your prejudices.  You've started from a preconceived position and proved nothing.   You refuse to accept any alternative unless it fits your prejudices.  It is biased and shoddy research at it's worst.    Roll Eyes
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #312 - Oct 14th, 2014 at 4:15pm
 


freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm:
Crap. You desperately ignore the evidence I post over and over again. I have presented a long list of evidence. Your own evidence even backs up my case, like when you presented Muslim leader failing to mention freedom of speech as an example of a Muslim leader speaking out in support of freedom of speech, or when you cited people accepting the primacy of freedom of speech in the context of something they find personally distasteful as evidence that they somehow devalue freedom of speech. The evidence is not lacking, only your comprehension.


Your "evidence" is a reference to a lack of evidence. You are completely sidestepping any attempt to back up your BS claim that muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" and instead resort to your usual infantile "prove they are not not doing it". I don't need to explain how proving a negative is a logical fallacy.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm:
Even Annie acknowledged I was right on this point, and that it is a genuine problem. You are in a desperate state of denial Gandalf.


Grin Pathetic.

Take another look at what Annie acknowledged. I agree with it. Certainly had nothing to do with endorsing the BS claim that maistream Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity". God you can be so full of sh*t FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm:
Except it doesn't. You even acknowledged this about the survey when you first put it up.


Rubbish. I can tell I'm going to have to post it again for your benefit.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm:
These are my claims - some Muslims oppose the right to depict and mock Muhammed with violence and threats of violence. Some oppose it through legal channels. Some are silent. Some, like you, pretend to support freedom of speech, but qualify it heavily, then run away when pressed on the issue. Which of these claims would you like me to prove?


How about the claim that muslims are any different to mainstream AUstralians in terms of freedom. Something thats actually not a logical fallacy or lying about what me or Annie said. Can you do that FD? I won't hold my breath.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm:
You are the one claiming the have a survey to back up your claims, not me. You have not presented it. By your own admission, it demonstrates the opposite of what you claim.


I already posted it before, I told you that. But I will post it again for those special ones who have a complete inability to find what is already there.

freediver wrote on Oct 13th, 2014 at 6:45pm:
The fact that you cannot present even one Muslim who fits into the mainstream on this issue, or one single non-Muslim who sides with the Muslims, is entirely relevant.


Yes, demanding that I prove a negative to back up FD's BS claims for him is entirely relevant in FD world.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #313 - Oct 14th, 2014 at 5:31pm
 
As promised:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1369558442/404#404

Quote:
Nearly 80% support laws against racial vilification. Close to 70% support laws against religious vilification.


It should be unlawful to offend someone on the basis of their race, culture or religion: strongly agree: 27% agree 38.7%

It should be unlawful to humiliate someone on the basis of their race, culture or religion: strongly agree: 29% agree 44.7%

It should be unlawful to insult someone on the basis of their race, culture or religion: strongly agree: 28% agree 43.5%

http://theconversation.com/what-do-australian-internet-users-think-about-racial-...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #314 - Oct 18th, 2014 at 11:35am
 
Quote:
Your "evidence" is a reference to a lack of evidence.


I have presented plenty of actual evidence of Muslims undermining our freedom of speech. The lack of 'good' Muslims standing up for freedom of speech in response is not absence of evidence.

Quote:
How about the claim that muslims are any different to mainstream AUstralians in terms of freedom.


I have already. I have demonstrated that there is not even any overlap in the two spectrums of opinion when it comes to the right to depict and mock Muhammed. You respond to this by picking one piece of evidence I have presented, insisting that is the only piece, then concluding I have not made the case. That is not an argument Gandalf. That is selective deafness on your part.

Quote:
Something thats actually not a logical fallacy or lying about what me or Annie said.


How have I misrepresented what Annie said?

Quote:
Yes, demanding that I prove a negative to back up FD's BS claims for him is entirely relevant in FD world.


Actually, what I ask is the opposite of proving a negative. You criticise me for citing absence of evidence. You claim you could present the evidence to refute my claim. You cannot.

Quote:
As promised:


Thanks Gandalf. Am I supposed to be embarrassed about not remembering a dodgy internet survey you posted many months ago? Where does it say that "a massive majority of Australians want the government to place religion beyond criticism or mockery"? Is another one of your spectacular efforts at interpretation?
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