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Poll Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?

Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed    
  11 (55.0%)
Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops    
  4 (20.0%)
Something else    
  5 (25.0%)




Total votes: 20
« Created by: freediver on: Oct 9th, 2014 at 12:43pm »

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Is Islam against free speech? (Read 157379 times)
Soren
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #285 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 4:49pm
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 4:07pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:11pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 11:17pm:
Adamant wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 8:48pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 6:14pm:
Please define the term "assimilation", Soren.


Why don't you do it brian as you will tell all of us later!


No.  I wish to see Soren's definition, so that we can pin down what he means exactly by it.

Quote:
Why is it brian that you refuse to answer questions that others pose?


If they are sensible, I answer them, Adamant, if I am able to.   What about you, do you always answer the questions posed to you?   Roll Eyes



Assimilation is a very ordinary word. It has no special meaning. It means that people assimilate. Do you have some special, uniquely Brainian interpretation of it?  Just use it in its normal meaning, I suggest.

Migrants should assimilate.







Except for the Freudians.

Or Paki Bvggers.
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Soren
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #286 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 4:59pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:53pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:23pm:
Freedom of speech is not about mocking the prophet but includes that too. It is part of the established framework of society in the West and so it needs no street marches.


Rubbish.

We live in a society that demonstrates its propensity to chip away at our freedoms all the time - bullying down the government's attempts to remove mere "offense" from the racial discrimination act, maintaining a ban on holocaust denial, banning anyone from visiting who might be "offensive" to certain people, the spectre of wholesale internet censorship and on it goes.

Freedom of speech needs to be constantly defended - thats FD's favourite catchphrase, yet strangely I never see it. Brandis proudly declare holocaust denial will remain 'unlawful' - no howls of protests from the freedom lovers. The word 'offense" remains on the Racial Discrimination Act - no howls of protests from the freedom lovers. Even the "threat" of the muslim protestors you whinge about constantly produced no demonstration of your love of freedom. And don't tell me our freedoms weren't affected by that - you'll be the first to argue that people are terrified to speak out against islam. Mission accomplised freedom hating muslims.

You are gutless wonders, the lot of you. Pathetic, spineless do-nothings. You, who talk endlessly about the need to keep standing up for our freedoms, do sweet f_uck all yourselves when all this chipping away at our freedoms is rampantly going on. So of course you will rationalise and give the lily-livered response you gave here "oh its all good - its "part of the established framework" - no need to do anything" to explain your limp-wristed responses.



There was concerted opposition to Labor's median laws and it was defeated through the democratic process.
True, Abbott and Brandis mishandled the 18c issue and caved in to Muslims (with nothing to show for it).
The proposed Foreign Fighters bill is being debated ferociously and there are many, many submissions to the parliamentary enquiry into it advocating significant changes in order to safeguard journalists and press freedoms.

Street marches are not the only way to exert pressure.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #287 - Oct 11th, 2014 at 8:56pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 4:59pm:
True, Abbott and Brandis mishandled the 18c issue and caved in to Muslims (with nothing to show for it).


What dishonest crap. Abbott and Brandis caved in to clear majority opinion, led by prominent non-muslims.

As I keep saying to FD, the mainstream muslim and non-muslims were hand in hand on this issue. You and FD just can't handle the fact that you two are clearly out of step with mainstream non-muslim opinion on this issue - prompting you to come up with limp wristed and clearly dishonest responses like this.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Soren
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #288 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:07am
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 6:14pm:
I suspect what you mean by "assimilated" is that they wear singlets, stubby shorts and thongs, swill beer, swear like troopers, eat barbequed pork sausages and attend church every Sunday.    Roll Eyes




You are being stupid and dishonest, Brain, once again.

Quote:
The reality is that there is little in the core tenants of Islam which are incompetable with Western secular civil society.  You unfortunately continually concentrate on the circumstantial stuff.   Roll Eyes




Well, show us the core tenets of Islam that require the equal treatment of women and nonMuslims. 

Or is the degradation of women and nonmuslims merely circumstantial stuff?
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Soren
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #289 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:11am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 8:56pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 4:59pm:
True, Abbott and Brandis mishandled the 18c issue and caved in to Muslims (with nothing to show for it).


What dishonest crap. Abbott and Brandis caved in to clear majority opinion, led by prominent non-muslims.

As I keep saying to FD, the mainstream muslim and non-muslims were hand in hand on this issue. You and FD just can't handle the fact that you two are clearly out of step with mainstream non-muslim opinion on this issue - prompting you to come up with limp wristed and clearly dishonest responses like this.


A key factor in this respect has been the precise shape of the Liberals’ electoral triumph last September, when it achieved its strongest performance in Sydney since 1975. This has brought the party’s parliamentary representation into contact with constituencies it might hitherto have felt comfortable ignoring. Among the gains last year were two seats with respective histories going back to 1922 and 1949 which the Liberals had never won before — Reid, where Labor’s John Murphy was unseated by Craig Laundy, and Banks, where Daryl Melham’s 23-year parliamentary career was brought to an end by David Coleman. Also in the Liberal fold for the first time since 1983 is the southern Sydney seat of Barton, where Nick Varvaris sits on the party’s slimmest margin after prevailing by 489 votes.

Reid, Barton and Banks will all be on the front line when the next election is held in 2016, and they respectively rank fourth, eighth and 16th out of the country’s 150 electorates for the number of residents identifying as Muslim. Before the election, Labor’s lock on the top 25 most strongly Muslim electorates was disturbed only by the highly marginal seat of Swan in the strongly Liberal state of Western Australia.

Another Sydney outlier is John Howard’s old seat of Bennelong, which ranks second only to Banks for residents of Chinese ancestry, and which until last year had the distinction of being the least “white” electorate held by the Coalition. While Bennelong is presently held for the Liberals by John Alexander on a margin of 7.8%, John Howard’s experience in 2007 means there is little chance that the party will lose sight of its long-term vulnerability.

It is obviously no coincidence that all four of the aforementioned MPs were associated with disquiet within the party over 18C. Coleman was reportedly behind the secret drafting of a more palatable alternative proposal, and was said to have been supported in the endeavour by Alexander and Varvaris. In response to yesterday’s backflip, Laundy expressed his relief while boasting that his electorate was “the second most multiculturally diverse seat in federal Parliament”.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #290 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:14am
 
I don't know if Shariah is against free speech but I definitely know you are Soren.    Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #291 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 1:15pm
 
Soren, you appear ignorant that Islam has had a long history of a belief in Freedom of Speech.  It's intolerance of it is a more recent development and goes with the increasing strain of intolerance which has grown up within Islam in the last 200 years - largely, I'd suggest in reaction to encroachment from the Christian West on it's territory and culture.

Back in the early days of Islam:
Quote:
Freedom of expression

Citizens of the Rashidun Caliphate were also free to criticize the Rashidun Caliphs, as the rule of law was binding on the head of state just as much as it was for the citizens. In a notable incident, when Umar tried to investigate a disturbance, by entering a home without permission, he was criticized for his behavior; he was also later criticized for the judgement he gave in that case.[42] There were also numerous other situations where citizens insulted Caliph Umar, but he tolerated the insults and simply provided them explanations. Similar situations also occurred during the time of Caliph Ali. For example, there was an occasion when he was giving a sermon and a Kharijite rudely interrupted him with insulting language. Though he was urged to punish the interrupter, Ali declined on the grounds that his "right to freedom of speech must not be imperilled."[43]

During the Abbasid Caliphate, freedom of speech was also declared by al-Hashimi, a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun, in a letter to a non-Muslim he was attempting to convert:[44] "Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely."

According to George Makdisi and Hugh Goddard, "the idea of academic freedom" in universities was "modelled on Islamic custom" as practiced in the medieval Madrasah system from the 9th century. Islamic influence was "certainly discernible in the foundation of the first deliberately planned university" in Europe, the University of Naples Federico II founded by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor in 1224.[45]

In a letter written by the fourth Rashidun Caliph and first cousin of the prophet Muhammad, Ali ibn Abi Talib to his governor of Egypt, Malik al-Ashtar. The Caliph advices his governor on dealings with the poor masses thus:[original research?]

Quote:
    "Out of your hours of work, fix a time for the complainants and for those who want to approach you with their grievances. During this time you should do no other work but hear them and pay attention to their complaints and grievances. For this purpose you must arrange public audience for them during this audience, for the sake of Allah, treat them with kindness, courtesy and respect. Do not let your army and police be in the audience hall at such times so that those who have grievances against your regime may speak to you freely, unreservedly and without fear."
Nahjul Balaagha letter 53

[Source]

I would suggest no society has ever had true Freedom of Speech, Soren, all have placed limits and continue to do so, on the basis of limiting inappropriate and perhaps even dangerous commentary:

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Adamant
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #292 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 6:01pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 11:17pm:
Adamant wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 8:48pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 6:14pm:
Please define the term "assimilation", Soren.


Why don't you do it brian as you will tell all of us later!


No.  I wish to see Soren's definition, so that we can pin down what he means exactly by it.

Quote:
Why is it brian that you refuse to answer questions that others pose?


If they are sensible, I answer them, Adamant, if I am able to.   What about you, do you always answer the questions posed to you?   Roll Eyes


Answer the question brian!
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Brian Ross
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #293 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 6:49pm
 
Adamant wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 6:01pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 11:17pm:
Adamant wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 8:48pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 6:14pm:
Please define the term "assimilation", Soren.


Why don't you do it brian as you will tell all of us later!


No.  I wish to see Soren's definition, so that we can pin down what he means exactly by it.

Quote:
Why is it brian that you refuse to answer questions that others pose?


If they are sensible, I answer them, Adamant, if I am able to.   What about you, do you always answer the questions posed to you?   Roll Eyes


Answer the question brian!


I did, Adamant.   Sometimes you won't get an answer you like or desire.  I suggest you learn to deal with your disappointment.    Roll Eyes
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freediver
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #294 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:15pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 1:18pm:
freediver wrote on Oct 11th, 2014 at 9:59am:
Merely obeying the law is not sufficient to maintain our rights and freedoms.


Bullshit. Its clearly enough for everyone else, and you insult my intelligence by pretending you have argued otherwise. You haven't.


I have. I am arguing it right now. You even seem to recognise this fact when you attempt to accuse me of hypocrisy for not criticising other ways in which you think are rights and freedoms are being chipped away. A person can obey the law while lobbying at every opportunity to destroy our rights and freedoms, as many muslims do.

Quote:
You continue just obfuscating and waffling your way through the thread like you always do - desperately trying to conceal the fact that your argument entirely boils down to "I have an irrational prejudice against muslims, and I dream up freedom-loving attributes of the non-muslim community that clearly aren't there


So why did Obama appeal directly to the principle of freedom of speech in response to Muslims trying to deny people the right to depict and mock Muhammed, if no-one values this principle?

Quote:
to create an imaginary and completely unnecessary divide between the muslims and non-muslims


The divide is already there. I did not create it. One the one hand we have a society that values our right to depict and mock any historical figure and that has and maintains this right. On the other hand we have Muslims who either use violence to deny people this right, or who try to use 'legitimate' legal means to deny people this right, or who remain silent, or who, like yourself, pretend to support freedom of speech but heavily qualify their support for this right, then desperately change the subject.

Quote:
Even the "threat" of the muslim protestors you whinge about constantly produced no demonstration of your love of freedom. And don't tell me our freedoms weren't affected by that - you'll be the first to argue that people are terrified to speak out against islam. Mission accomplised freedom hating muslims.


Gandalf are you suggesting mainstream Australians are OK with this?

Quote:
You are gutless wonders, the lot of you. Pathetic, spineless do-nothings. You, who talk endlessly about the need to keep standing up for our freedoms, do sweet f_uck all yourselves when all this chipping away at our freedoms is rampantly going on.


Gandalf, the first and most effective way to defend you freedom of speech is to exercise it.

Quote:
As I keep saying to FD, the mainstream muslim and non-muslims were hand in hand on this issue. You and FD just can't handle the fact that you two are clearly out of step with mainstream non-muslim opinion on this issue - prompting you to come up with limp wristed and clearly dishonest responses like this.


Yes Gandalf, we noticed your efforts to change every topic into a question about 18c. I have been telling you there is nothing wrong with being in a minority on an issue. You are the one trying to make something out of it.

You, and the Muslim community, are out of step with mainstream Australia on the right to depict and mock Muhammed. You are yet to produce a single example of a Muslim who is with the majority on that issue, and it is a far stronger majority than 18c - so strong in fact that despite insisting you can, you are also yet to produce an example of a non-Muslim in opposition to this right. Can you handle that fact?
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Soren
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #295 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:49pm
 
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« Last Edit: Oct 12th, 2014 at 10:08pm by polite_gandalf »  
 
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Soren
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #296 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:57pm
 
Islam has NO history of freedom or speech or freedom of anything. Islam is against freedom of every kind.


You have the freedom of SUBMISSION.

Islam is a STRICTLY discriminatory creed. It has a non-negotiable stance of degradation of women and non muslims.
You cannot have freedom of speech, conscience, press, association, or any other freedom under sharia. You can have sharia which is submission to Islam. You are free to bow down.
bugger that, Brain, bugger that.








Brian Ross wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 1:15pm:
Soren, you appear ignorant that Islam has had a long history of a belief in Freedom of Speech.  It's intolerance of it is a more recent development and goes with the increasing strain of intolerance which has grown up within Islam in the last 200 years - largely, I'd suggest in reaction to encroachment from the Christian West on it's territory and culture.

Back in the early days of Islam:
Quote:
Freedom of expression

Citizens of the Rashidun Caliphate were also free to criticize the Rashidun Caliphs, as the rule of law was binding on the head of state just as much as it was for the citizens. In a notable incident, when Umar tried to investigate a disturbance, by entering a home without permission, he was criticized for his behavior; he was also later criticized for the judgement he gave in that case.[42] There were also numerous other situations where citizens insulted Caliph Umar, but he tolerated the insults and simply provided them explanations. Similar situations also occurred during the time of Caliph Ali. For example, there was an occasion when he was giving a sermon and a Kharijite rudely interrupted him with insulting language. Though he was urged to punish the interrupter, Ali declined on the grounds that his "right to freedom of speech must not be imperilled."[43]

During the Abbasid Caliphate, freedom of speech was also declared by al-Hashimi, a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun, in a letter to a non-Muslim he was attempting to convert:[44] "Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely."

According to George Makdisi and Hugh Goddard, "the idea of academic freedom" in universities was "modelled on Islamic custom" as practiced in the medieval Madrasah system from the 9th century. Islamic influence was "certainly discernible in the foundation of the first deliberately planned university" in Europe, the University of Naples Federico II founded by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor in 1224.[45]

In a letter written by the fourth Rashidun Caliph and first cousin of the prophet Muhammad, Ali ibn Abi Talib to his governor of Egypt, Malik al-Ashtar. The Caliph advices his governor on dealings with the poor masses thus:[original research?]

Quote:
    "Out of your hours of work, fix a time for the complainants and for those who want to approach you with their grievances. During this time you should do no other work but hear them and pay attention to their complaints and grievances. For this purpose you must arrange public audience for them during this audience, for the sake of Allah, treat them with kindness, courtesy and respect. Do not let your army and police be in the audience hall at such times so that those who have grievances against your regime may speak to you freely, unreservedly and without fear."
Nahjul Balaagha letter 53

[Source]

I would suggest no society has ever had true Freedom of Speech, Soren, all have placed limits and continue to do so, on the basis of limiting inappropriate and perhaps even dangerous commentary:


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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #297 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 10:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:15pm:
You, and the Muslim community, are out of step with mainstream Australia on the right to depict and mock Muhammed. You are yet to produce a single example of a Muslim who is with the majority on that issue, and it is a far stronger majority than 18c - so strong in fact that despite insisting you can, you are also yet to produce an example of a non-Muslim in opposition to this right.


"mainstream" virtually all of western civilization expressed a clear disgust with the Muhammad cartoons, and said they should not have been published. When asked they offered a grudging support for the right to publish them. What surveys do you have of, say, the muslim community in Australia on this matter? As far as I know they haven't been done. About the only thing we can safely assume is that they are disgusted with the cartoons - just like the rest of society. But since we don't have any surveys of Australian muslims attitudes on whether they think people should have the right to publish them, you can't make any judgements about them on that front. All we have is beheading placards and such - which everyone agrees is representative of only a tiny minority of the muslim community.

What we also have is surveys from the 18c debate, which I have posted before, that show massive majorities of Australian society who oppose removing the words "offend" and "insult" on the basis of race, nationality or ethnicity.

This is all we need to expose your rank hypocricy - here we have a massive majority of our community wanting to retain legal provisions against mere "insults" and "offense", and what response to we get from our resident crusader for freeeeedom?

1. Its all the muslims fault
2. Such a thumping reaction from the community actually indicates (wait for it...) the communities innate love of freedom.... somehow.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Brian Ross
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #298 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 11:36pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:07am:
Brian Ross wrote on Oct 10th, 2014 at 6:14pm:
I suspect what you mean by "assimilated" is that they wear singlets, stubby shorts and thongs, swill beer, swear like troopers, eat barbequed pork sausages and attend church every Sunday.    Roll Eyes


You are being stupid and dishonest, Brain, once again.


How?  Unless you provide us with the information, Soren what is dishonest about assuming something on the basis of your past comments?   Roll Eyes

Quote:
Quote:
The reality is that there is little in the core tenants of Islam which are incompatible with Western secular civil society.  You unfortunately continually concentrate on the circumstantial stuff.   Roll Eyes


Well, show us the core tenets of Islam that require the equal treatment of women and nonMuslims. 

Or is the degradation of women and nonmuslims merely circumstantial stuff?


Yes.  Do you really think they are part of the central core beliefs?   Roll Eyes
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #299 - Oct 12th, 2014 at 11:42pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 8:57pm:
Islam has NO history of freedom or speech or freedom of anything. Islam is against freedom of every kind.


So, Soren you're denying the historical record?   Roll Eyes

Brian Ross wrote on Oct 12th, 2014 at 1:15pm:
Soren, you appear ignorant that Islam has had a long history of a belief in Freedom of Speech.  It's intolerance of it is a more recent development and goes with the increasing strain of intolerance which has grown up within Islam in the last 200 years - largely, I'd suggest in reaction to encroachment from the Christian West on it's territory and culture.

Back in the early days of Islam:
Quote:
Freedom of expression

Citizens of the Rashidun Caliphate were also free to criticize the Rashidun Caliphs, as the rule of law was binding on the head of state just as much as it was for the citizens. In a notable incident, when Umar tried to investigate a disturbance, by entering a home without permission, he was criticized for his behavior; he was also later criticized for the judgement he gave in that case.[42] There were also numerous other situations where citizens insulted Caliph Umar, but he tolerated the insults and simply provided them explanations. Similar situations also occurred during the time of Caliph Ali. For example, there was an occasion when he was giving a sermon and a Kharijite rudely interrupted him with insulting language. Though he was urged to punish the interrupter, Ali declined on the grounds that his "right to freedom of speech must not be imperilled."[43]

During the Abbasid Caliphate, freedom of speech was also declared by al-Hashimi, a cousin of Caliph al-Ma'mun, in a letter to a non-Muslim he was attempting to convert:[44] "Bring forward all the arguments you wish and say whatever you please and speak your mind freely."

According to George Makdisi and Hugh Goddard, "the idea of academic freedom" in universities was "modelled on Islamic custom" as practiced in the medieval Madrasah system from the 9th century. Islamic influence was "certainly discernible in the foundation of the first deliberately planned university" in Europe, the University of Naples Federico II founded by Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor in 1224.[45]

In a letter written by the fourth Rashidun Caliph and first cousin of the prophet Muhammad, Ali ibn Abi Talib to his governor of Egypt, Malik al-Ashtar. The Caliph advices his governor on dealings with the poor masses thus:[original research?]

Quote:
    "Out of your hours of work, fix a time for the complainants and for those who want to approach you with their grievances. During this time you should do no other work but hear them and pay attention to their complaints and grievances. For this purpose you must arrange public audience for them during this audience, for the sake of Allah, treat them with kindness, courtesy and respect. Do not let your army and police be in the audience hall at such times so that those who have grievances against your regime may speak to you freely, unreservedly and without fear."
Nahjul Balaagha letter 53

[Source]

I would suggest no society has ever had true Freedom of Speech, Soren, all have placed limits and continue to do so, on the basis of limiting inappropriate and perhaps even dangerous commentary:



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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour.  Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe?  Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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