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Poll Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?

Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed    
  11 (55.0%)
Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops    
  4 (20.0%)
Something else    
  5 (25.0%)




Total votes: 20
« Created by: freediver on: Oct 9th, 2014 at 12:43pm »

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Is Islam against free speech? (Read 157389 times)
freediver
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #225 - Oct 7th, 2014 at 10:35pm
 
Quote:
Presumably there is some technicality that allows him to keep that web page - as long as he doesn't go out and promote it - like what landed him in prison in 2009.


I expect the technicality is that it is not illegal to deny the holocaust.

Quote:
Put this in the me illegally downloading movies basket if you like


Sure, the one single case of someone actually running into trouble for denying the holocaust.

Quote:
a prominent international denier has been banned from entering the country to talk about it


We ban all sorts of people for not having "good character". This does not mean it is illegal.

Quote:
Whatever technicality you can find that allows holocaust denial to still exist here, the fact is our own government insists that it is unlawful with no howls of outrage from mainstream Australia for this egregious attack on our freedoms. You should be condemning mainstream Australia for this, yet instead here you are spinelessly apologising for it. Strange.


I am considering putting together an article about it. I merely disagree with you that this is evidence that our society does not value freedom of speech, or is anywhere near being 'on the same page' as the Muslim community. This is no less stupid than picking one policy of the Nazi party - a good rail system for example - an insisting that anyone, or any majority, that agrees with that policy is 'on the same page' as the Nazi party. You have been pushing this bollocks the entire thread. It is a transparent attempt to misrepresent the degree to which Islam and the views of Muslims are compatible with western values.

Quote:
uhuh. So we have an issue on which the mainstream of Australia is, by your own concession, in favour of chipping away at our freedoms - and you continue to insist it is an example of how the mainstream loves our freedom.


Yes I do. There was a heated debate over 18c, which is difficult to understand and unlikely to directly affect anyone. The heated debate arose because of the restriction on freedom of speech, which people genuinely value. This is not the same thing as placing it above all other rights and freedoms. The contrast with the Muslim community is that there is no debate, nor is there even any mentioning of freedom of speech, in the face of outright hostility from a significant sector of the Muslim community to freedom of speech.

You cannot respond to this. You pretend you cannot understand this. You pretend that you cannot even read it. Because to even acknowledge what I say, and have said in at least a dozen posts, puts the lie to your crap about Muslims being on the same page and your efforts to turn every question put to you into a question about 18c.

Quote:
I gave you a link, read it.


You have made a lot of claims in this thread that you cannot back up Gandalf. If you cannot even give an explanation of how anti-terror laws restrict freedom of speech, I am not going to bother reading the link that 'informed' you. You claimed that you would be able to find an Australian Muslim leader speaking out in defense of people's right to depict and mock Muhammed. The only example you have produced does not mention freedom of speech and only supports it 'by implication'. I read through your entire link, scratching my head at how you could fail so miserably in backing up your argument, to the extent that you prove your own words to be a lie. You claimed that non-Muslims are also opposed to people's right to depict and mock Muhammed. Again, not a single example to back this up. And of course there is the biggest lie of all - that you personally support people's right to depict and mock Muhammed, with the caveat that no Muslims feel vilified by it - another point that instantly brings out your selective blindness.

Quote:
Alo very significantly, nobody rioted and Piss Christ remained on display. Nobody rioted and nobody was killed. The judgment means under common law that if an artist created a Piss Mohammed work, it could be exhibited without fear of LEGAL prosecution.


Soren you left out the most significant aspect of all - that Christians themselves took part in the debate and spoke out in support of freedom of speech. The existence of that debate and the seriousness with which our society took it is yet another affirmation of our support for freedom of speech. Freedom of speech won the day, easily, because this is such a clear case of freedom of speech vs religious censorship. This contrasts with the Muslim community, where only one side speaks out against freedom of speech. The rest, at best, remain silent.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #226 - Oct 7th, 2014 at 11:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2014 at 10:35pm:
I merely disagree with you that this is evidence that our society does not value freedom of speech


You cannot deny there is a culture in the west of being deeply intolerant of holocaust denial - to the extent that it is unambiguously illegal in some European countries, and is celebrated as "unlawful" by our own government (without any significant opposition).

It is understood that a serious public promotion of holocaust denial in this country will be met with a concerted effort to gag this free speech, armed with the racial discrimination act. Our own AG has promised that any holocaust denial will be deemed "unlawful". It is no coincidence that there is nothing resembling any sort of academic debate on holocaust denial. You simply cannot say with a straight face that we as a nation have the freedom to publicly deny the holocaust.

freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2014 at 10:35pm:
There was a heated debate over 18c, which is difficult to understand and unlikely to directly affect anyone. The heated debate arose because of the restriction on freedom of speech, which people genuinely value.


What a joke. No one wanted a debate on this, it was forced on us because George Brandis and his merry band of fringe ideologues decided to needlessly try and give more free rein to bigots. In the end people power spoke and issued a big "f_uck off George", and he was forced into a humiliating retreat. No one else thought this "restriction on freedom of speech" was a problem, and certainly didn't enter this debate as a gesture of genuine concern for our freedom of speech. You are trying to characterise the Australian public as something they are not. Your argument is no less stupid than referring to Tony Abbott calling the burqa "confronting", and the fact that the muslim community jumped in and condemned the comment and repudiated any suggestion that the burqa shouldn't be allowed - that therefore means the muslim community somehow shares Tony Abbott's concerns about the burqa. Just because there was a "debate".

freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2014 at 10:35pm:
The contrast with the Muslim community is that there is no debate, nor is there even any mentioning of freedom of speech, in the face of outright hostility from a significant sector of the Muslim community to freedom of speech.


Yes brilliant contrast FD. We had the 18c debate because the government forced it upon us by proposing changes that almost no one else wanted. "Contrasted" to this, the muslim community merely joined hands with the rest of mainstream Australia and said a big "f_uck you George Brandis". It is completely unfathomable how you can interpret the Australian public as overwhelmingly rejecting a proposal to weaken the restrictions on our freedoms as some sort of demonstration of the Australian public's valuing of free speech. I mean muslims joined in the debate too right? So why don't you apply your retarded logic on them as well?

freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2014 at 10:35pm:
your efforts to turn every question put to you into a question about 18c


I've invited you to present more examples of this supposed demonstration of the mainstream's relative love of freedom you insist is there. You refuse. So you can't blame me for picking on the only example you can think of.

freediver wrote on Oct 7th, 2014 at 10:35pm:
If you cannot even give an explanation of how anti-terror laws restrict freedom of speech, I am not going to bother reading the link that 'informed' you.


Awww poor FD - even he knows that there is no argument that the new anti-terror laws aren't an egregious attack on our freedoms, so he pretends not to know about them. Which I must say is a brave facade to keep up - I mean you'd literally have to live in a complete media blackout for the last week for this to be possible.

I'll give you a hint - *ALL* the ideologues who make it their mission to stand up for personal liberties have slammed these laws as an egregious attack on our freedoms. You see FD, these people aren't hypocrites - they don't feel the need to spinelessly apologise for these sorts of attacks because they are terrified not doing so will detract from trying to frame the debate as a muslim issue, and muslim issue alone. They actually care about freeeedom, they don't use it as a cynical tool to bash muslims.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #227 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 1:11pm
 
Quote:
You cannot deny there is a culture in the west of being deeply intolerant of holocaust denial


I acknowledge this.

Quote:
to the extent that it is unambiguously illegal in some European countries


Germany is the only one I know of.

Quote:
and is celebrated as "unlawful" by our own government (without any significant opposition)


So trying, but failing, to wind back the legislation is celebrating it?

Quote:
It is understood that a serious public promotion of holocaust denial in this country will be met with a concerted effort to gag this free speech, armed with the racial discrimination act.


It is the first I had head of it actually.

Quote:
Our own AG has promised that any holocaust denial will be deemed "unlawful".


Sounds empty to me. While I acknowledge that Toben was punished, it is unclear to me exactly what for. It appears it was ineffective in silencing him, and as Brian pointed out, there are plenty of other Australian groups and individuals doing the same.

Quote:
It is no coincidence that there is nothing resembling any sort of academic debate on holocaust denial.


Because it is illegal, or because it is stupid?

Quote:
You simply cannot say with a straight face that we as a nation have the freedom to publicly deny the holocaust.


I still think we do, though I am struggling to figure out where we draw the line.

Quote:
No one else thought this "restriction on freedom of speech" was a problem


I do, as do plenty of others. This is not like your claim that Muslims stand up for the right to depict and mock Muhammed. There are Australians who actually spoke out against it, including the elected government.

The contrast could not be more striking Gandalf. You claim something on behalf of our Muslim community that you cannot back up with a single example, while at the same time claiming that the elected government tried to make a change to the laws that not a single person supported, despite being in an argument with someone who supports it and despite sections of the mainstream media vocally supporting it.

These are the mental gymnastics a Muslim must perform in order to pretend that Muslims are "holding hands" with Australia on the issue of freedom of speech.

Quote:
Your argument is no less stupid than referring to Tony Abbott calling the burqa "confronting", and the fact that the muslim community jumped in and condemned the comment and repudiated any suggestion that the burqa shouldn't be allowed - that therefore means the muslim community somehow shares Tony Abbott's concerns about the burqa. Just because there was a "debate".


The existence of the debate is evidence of the significance we place on freedom of speech. This is not the same thing as saying the majority agree. Vocal opposition to Abbot proves that the Muslim community values the right to wear a burqa. The combination of complete silence from the 'good' Muslim community on the right to depict and mock Muhammed, and aggressive opposition to it from the 'bad' Muslims shows that the Muslim community does not value that right.

Quote:
Yes brilliant contrast FD. We had the 18c debate because the government forced it upon us by proposing changes that almost no one else wanted.


Sounds far fetched to me. You don't get into government by being that stupid.

Quote:
"Contrasted" to this, the muslim community merely joined hands with the rest of mainstream Australia and said a big "f_uck you George Brandis". It is completely unfathomable how you can interpret the Australian public as overwhelmingly rejecting a proposal to weaken the restrictions on our freedoms as some sort of demonstration of the Australian public's valuing of free speech. I mean muslims joined in the debate too right? So why don't you apply your retarded logic on them as well?


I have. Me being on the opposite side to the majority does not make me an extremist, as you claim. That is just plain stupid. Using that logic could paint 49% of the population as extremists with a single question. Likewise, the Muslim community being among the majority on 18c only shows that they are with the majority on one single issue, and certainly not on the issue of freedom of speech in general. The right to depict and mock Muhammed is a far more significant issue and one in which the Muslim community is against the vast majority.

Quote:
I've invited you to present more examples of this supposed demonstration of the mainstream's relative love of freedom you insist is there. You refuse. So you can't blame me for picking on the only example you can think of.


I asked you a while back if there was anything we are legally not allowed to say in Australia. We were obviously unaware of the holocaust denial thing at the time, because you agreed with me that there was nothing we were not allowed to say. Merely achieving that, in spite of all the interests pushing for censorship, demonstrates our values. The holocaust denial thing is the exception, not the rule.

Quote:
Awww poor FD - even he knows that there is no argument that the new anti-terror laws aren't an egregious attack on our freedoms, so he pretends not to know about them. Which I must say is a brave facade to keep up - I mean you'd literally have to live in a complete media blackout for the last week for this to be possible.


You claimed they are an attack on our freedom of speech. How?
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #228 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 1:12pm
 
Quote:
I'll give you a hint - *ALL* the ideologues who make it their mission to stand up for personal liberties have slammed these laws as an egregious attack on our freedoms. You see FD, these people aren't hypocrites - they don't feel the need to spinelessly apologise for these sorts of attacks because they are terrified not doing so will detract from trying to frame the debate as a muslim issue, and muslim issue alone. They actually care about freeeedom, they don't use it as a cynical tool to bash muslims.


Can you cite one that claimed, as you do, that it is an attack on our freedom of speech? You are chopping and changing between accusing me of being an extremist and an apologist.

Just in case you have forgotten:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 5th, 2014 at 12:36pm:
Wow FD - forgive me if I'm just totally bowled over by the hypocricy here.

I must have missed all the passionate protests by you and all the other 'freedom loving' non-muslims against the raft of anti-terror laws that are some of the most egregious and effective attacks on our freedom of speech we have ever seen


Colourful language isn't it? Can you back it up, or will you continue pretending you said something else?
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #229 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:51pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 1:12pm:
Can you cite one that claimed, as you do, that it is an attack on our freedom of speech?


Not just freedom of speech, other freedoms such as privacy.

- firstly, the gagging of journalists from reporting ASIO activities that are deemed "Special Intelligence Operations" - with the threat of up to 10 years gaol. And anything ASIO do can potentially be labelled a SIO, and the gag is forever. It basically makes ASIO unaccountable, and as the media alliance said, is "an outrageous attack on press freedom in Australia". This particular aspect of the law has been universally slammed across the media profession:
http://www.abc.net.au/mediawatch/transcripts/s4101446.htm
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/29/the-coalitions-national-sec...

Attacking the freedom of the press is very much a case of attacking the freedom of speech for us all

- Civil libertarians have also slammed the provisions that prevents travel "to a designated area where terrorist organisations are conducting hostile activities unless there is a legitimate purpose" - as well as ASIO's potentially unlimited access to metadata under one warrant:

http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/spy-laws-passed-in-senate-asio-given-ne...
http://redflag.org.au/article/new-anti-terror-laws-attack-basic-freedoms
+ the article I linked before.

freediver wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 1:12pm:
olourful language isn't it? Can you back it up


Yes FD. The new provisions mentioned above are clearly an egregious attack on many of our freedoms, as many Australians clearly agree. This is contrasted to making up bs statements like Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" with absolutely no basis.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #230 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 5:23pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:51pm:
The new provisions mentioned above are clearly an egregious attack on many of our freedoms, as many Australians clearly agree. This is contrasted to making up bs statements like Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" with absolutely no basis.



Muslims behaving badly - that is the only cause of these laws.
No Islamic threat - no anti-terrorism laws.


Let's not forget that, Gandy. Let us not start, as Muslims like to start, with the response to Muslims behaving badly.i
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #231 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 6:30pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 5:23pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:51pm:
The new provisions mentioned above are clearly an egregious attack on many of our freedoms, as many Australians clearly agree. This is contrasted to making up bs statements like Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" with absolutely no basis.



Muslims behaving badly - that is the only cause of these laws.
No Islamic threat - no anti-terrorism laws.


Let's not forget that, Gandy. Let us not start, as Muslims like to start, with the response to Muslims behaving badly.i


If you saw an Australian Muslim being verbally or physically attacked, would you defend them?
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #232 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:00pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 6:30pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 5:23pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:51pm:
The new provisions mentioned above are clearly an egregious attack on many of our freedoms, as many Australians clearly agree. This is contrasted to making up bs statements like Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" with absolutely no basis.



Muslims behaving badly - that is the only cause of these laws.
No Islamic threat - no anti-terrorism laws.


Let's not forget that, Gandy. Let us not start, as Muslims like to start, with the response to Muslims behaving badly.



If you saw an Australian Muslim being verbally or physically attacked, would you defend them?


If it was bloke and his mates holding a sign saying behead thosee who insult the prophet - no. Some people need their noses bloodied.
If it was a woman in a niqab or hijab and someone gave her a piece of his or her mind about respecting the norms and customs of Australia (no swearing)  - no. This is not an attack. It is communication, like the niqab etc.

If someone touched or swore at a muslim who has been simply going about his/her business - yes, I would step in and stop it.  I would also tell him/her  that ostentatious display of alien customs is not welcome. I would not want the muslim person to think that I defended him/her because of any respect for Islam. It would be out of respect for my own norms and culture.


But opposition to ostentatious display of hostile cultural alegiances is not in itself justification for physical confrontation or uncivilised rebuke. Civilised rebuke however is to be strongly encouraged. After all, the niqab and hijab are strong nonverbal rebukes of western norms and customs.


So -I would not stand  violence, touching,  swearing.

PS.
Yes, I have seen the Mac Uni vid.


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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #233 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:03pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 5:23pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:51pm:
The new provisions mentioned above are clearly an egregious attack on many of our freedoms, as many Australians clearly agree. This is contrasted to making up bs statements like Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" with absolutely no basis.



Muslims behaving badly - that is the only cause of these laws.
No Islamic threat - no anti-terrorism laws.


Oh, old boy, by your own admission, terrorist attacks in Australia are so passe.

No laws passed for Armenians. No laws passed for wrongly convicted Ananda Margas. No laws passed for Hakoa Club bombers - the police don’t even know who they are.

And yet, a Muselman is arrested in Sydney for possessing an unlicensed crossbow, and it’s game-on.

Your own apologism for actual terrorist bombings says it all.

We don’t have any new anti-terrorism laws, we have new restrictions on overseas travel, new restrictions on sending money overseas, and a raft of new laws against whistleblowing and reporting on ASIO operations.

None of these laws are about preventing terrorism at all.

But then, that’s hardly your point, no? If it was, you’d hardly be excusing non-Musel terrorism, which as we all know, is the only form of terrorism to have ever taken place on Australian soil.

Yes, old boy, and we’ll fight to the death for your right to say the complete opposite. This, you see, is Freeeedom.

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #234 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:12pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:00pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 6:30pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 5:23pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:51pm:
The new provisions mentioned above are clearly an egregious attack on many of our freedoms, as many Australians clearly agree. This is contrasted to making up bs statements like Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" with absolutely no basis.



Muslims behaving badly - that is the only cause of these laws.
No Islamic threat - no anti-terrorism laws.


Let's not forget that, Gandy. Let us not start, as Muslims like to start, with the response to Muslims behaving badly.



If you saw an Australian Muslim being verbally or physically attacked, would you defend them?


If it was bloke and his mates holding a sign saying behead thosee who insult the prophet - no. Some people need their noses bloodied.
If it was a woman in a niqab or hijab and someone gave her a piece of his or her mind about respecting the norms and customs of Australia (no swearing)  - no. This is not an attack. It is communication, like the niqab etc.

If someone touched or swore at a muslim who has been simply going about his/her business - yes, I would step in and stop it.  I would also tell him/her  that ostentatious display of alien customs is not welcome. I would not want the muslim person to think that I defended him/her because of any respect for Islam. It would be out of respect for my own norms and culture.



Yes, and this is Freeeedom too. No one has the right to not receive one of the old boy’s tirades.

All for one and one for all. Team Australia, innit.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #235 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:19pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:00pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 6:30pm:
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 5:23pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:51pm:
The new provisions mentioned above are clearly an egregious attack on many of our freedoms, as many Australians clearly agree. This is contrasted to making up bs statements like Australian muslims are "chipping away at our freedoms at every opportunity" with absolutely no basis.



Muslims behaving badly - that is the only cause of these laws.
No Islamic threat - no anti-terrorism laws.


Let's not forget that, Gandy. Let us not start, as Muslims like to start, with the response to Muslims behaving badly.



If you saw an Australian Muslim being verbally or physically attacked, would you defend them?


If it was bloke and his mates holding a sign saying behead thosee who insult the prophet - no. Some people need their noses bloodied.
If it was a woman in a niqab or hijab and someone gave her a piece of his or her mind about respecting the norms and customs of Australia (no swearing)  - no. This is not an attack. It is communication, like the niqab etc.

If someone touched or swore at a muslim who has been simply going about his/her business - yes, I would step in and stop it.  I would also tell him/her  that ostentatious display of alien customs is not welcome. I would not want the muslim person to think that I defended him/her because of any respect for Islam. It would be out of respect for my own norms and culture.


But opposition to ostentatious display of hostile cultural alegiances is not in itself justification for physical confrontation or uncivilised rebuke. Civilised rebuke however is to be strongly encouraged. After all, the niqab and hijab are strong nonverbal rebukes of western norms and customs.


So -I would not stand  violence, touching,  swearing.

PS.
Yes, I have seen the Mac Uni vid.





Soren, that is so incredibly wrong. I remember being in a busy Woolworths once when I wore hijab and a man and his wife and 2 kids came into the aisle I was in. The man said "watch out for the tea towel head" in quite a loud voice as they walked past me. It felt like a slap in the face. I looked around and the couple next to me looked at me with ...pity, I guess. It was so terribly humiliating. Anyway, me being me, humiliation turned to fury and I swung my trolley around and marched up the aisle and demanded the man repeated what he said. He refused because he was a coward and I was fully prepared to make the scene from hell. I left the store and bawled my eyes out all the way home. I'm sharing this here because it's happening to women all over Australia and it's unfair. Properly unfair.

Nobody has the right to make anyone feel like that because of the clothing they wear. I know you disagree and will say that I invited it, but that's like saying women invite rape with revealing clothing.

Another thing - people like you and Freediver talk about the hijab/niqab as a tool of patriarchal oppression in Islam. What if by chance the woman you "civilly rebuke" about her hijab or niqab is being coerced into wearing it? You may be making the life of someone who is already suffering an even greater hell purely because she is a visible sign of an ideology that you disagree with.



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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #236 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:20pm
 
PB,
Thank you, looney, you are as f.ckking mad as ever.you have run out out of reasonabke arguments and so now you join the Brains, Hot Breasts, Wallys and other assorted freaks and come up with threadbare snarling.

These laws were introduced because of a cross-bow? You are an idiot (yes, correct word).

Try sending money to Singapore or Korea or Portugal and see who cares.
Book a ticket to fly to a nonmuslim country -  ditto, nobody cares.

Whatever you do, dont mention ze Islam. (I did it once but I think I got away with it.)


PB, you have no argument, you have no reason, as the French say. All you are left with is idiotic innuendo, nudge-nudge and allusions only you understand (if understand is the word).

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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #237 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:52pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:20pm:
PB,
Thank you, looney, you are as f.ckking mad as ever.you have run out out of reasonabke arguments and so now you join the Brains, Hot Breasts, Wallys and other assorted freaks and come up with threadbare snarling.

These laws were introduced because of a cross-bow? You are an idiot (yes, correct word).

Try sending money to Singapore or Korea or Portugal and see who cares.
Book a ticket to fly to a nonmuslim country -  ditto, nobody cares.

Whatever you do, dont mention ze Islam. (I did it once but I think I got away with it.)


PB, you have no argument, you have no reason, as the French say. All you are left with is idiotic innuendo, nudge-nudge and allusions only you understand (if understand is the word).



Thanks, old boy. Next time you stand in and defend a humble PB like moi from those marauding neo-Nazis, I’ll happily accept your lecture about fitting into your norms and dressing like a Danish old boy.

You should come down to Cronulla next time there’s a jolly riot and have your say.  Maybe you could bring one of those mobile PAs the Christians use when they’re street preaching.

Good show.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #238 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:57pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 7:19pm:
Soren, that is so incredibly wrong. I remember being in a busy Woolworths once when I wore hijab and a man and his wife and 2 kids came into the aisle I was in. The man said "watch out for the tea towel head" in quite a loud voice as they walked past me. It felt like a slap in the face. I looked around and the couple next to me looked at me with ...pity, I guess. It was so terribly humiliating. Anyway, me being me, humiliation turned to fury and I swung my trolley around and marched up the aisle and demanded the man repeated what he said. He refused because he was a coward and I was fully prepared to make the scene from hell. I left the store and bawled my eyes out all the way home. I'm sharing this here because it's happening to women all over Australia and it's unfair. Properly unfair.

Nobody has the right to make anyone feel like that because of the clothing they wear. I know you disagree and will say that I invited it, but that's like saying women invite rape with revealing clothing.

Another thing - people like you and Freediver talk about the hijab/niqab as a tool of patriarchal oppression in Islam. What if by chance the woman you "civilly rebuke" about her hijab or niqab is being coerced into wearing it? You may be making the life of someone who is already suffering an even greater hell purely because she is a visible sign of an ideology that you disagree with.




I appreciate sincerely your putting yourself on the line like this.

In the situation you describe I would have taken your side (if you weren't equally uncouth).  "Watch out for the towelhead" is stupid, mindless, idiotic.

But if the bloke had said, passing you in the aisle, something like ' You shouldn't be dressed like you don't actually belong here', or 'Perhaps dressing less challengingly or provocatively would make you better accepted',  I would have sided with him.

I have never done this but I feel like making an undertaking to say this next time I see a hijabi or especially a niqabi in a public place. I will report back.

As for women who are coerced - they should respond to my comment with something like, "I know, but I am made to wear this. What can I do? Help me." There is a short story/ short film in there, Annie. Either they have spirit or they are door mats.
I would not say anything to a woman over 50 or so. They are likely to be recent arrivals and you cannot change a lifelong  habit. Women born here or under 40 recent arrival, on the other hand,  have no excuse for being subservient. Choosing Middle Eastern customs over Australian freedoms is cowardly.


My rage tells me that the men who coerce women to wear such thing in the west should be pussy whipped by a bunch of butch lesbians until the repent. I would put the legal screws on them until it really hurts. (sorry about the uncivil rebuke).








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Mattyfisk
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #239 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 8:13pm
 
Yes, old boy, but I feel it would be more of a documentary following you around dressing down the burqa crowd. Make sure you report back.

Once you start with the fashion tips, we can move on to hair and makeup, deportment, manners, flower arranging, etc, until finally we’ll have them dressing, talking and thinking just like you.

I can’t wait.
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