Quote:You cannot deny there is a culture in the west of being deeply intolerant of holocaust denial
I acknowledge this.
Quote:to the extent that it is unambiguously illegal in some European countries
Germany is the only one I know of.
Quote:and is celebrated as "unlawful" by our own government (without any significant opposition)
So trying, but failing, to wind back the legislation is celebrating it?
Quote:It is understood that a serious public promotion of holocaust denial in this country will be met with a concerted effort to gag this free speech, armed with the racial discrimination act.
It is the first I had head of it actually.
Quote:Our own AG has promised that any holocaust denial will be deemed "unlawful".
Sounds empty to me. While I acknowledge that Toben was punished, it is unclear to me exactly what for. It appears it was ineffective in silencing him, and as Brian pointed out, there are plenty of other Australian groups and individuals doing the same.
Quote:It is no coincidence that there is nothing resembling any sort of academic debate on holocaust denial.
Because it is illegal, or because it is stupid?
Quote:You simply cannot say with a straight face that we as a nation have the freedom to publicly deny the holocaust.
I still think we do, though I am struggling to figure out where we draw the line.
Quote:No one else thought this "restriction on freedom of speech" was a problem
I do, as do plenty of others. This is not like your claim that Muslims stand up for the right to depict and mock Muhammed. There are Australians who actually spoke out against it, including the elected government.
The contrast could not be more striking Gandalf. You claim something on behalf of our Muslim community that you cannot back up with a single example, while at the same time claiming that the elected government tried to make a change to the laws that not a single person supported, despite being in an argument with someone who supports it and despite sections of the mainstream media vocally supporting it.
These are the mental gymnastics a Muslim must perform in order to pretend that Muslims are "holding hands" with Australia on the issue of freedom of speech.
Quote:Your argument is no less stupid than referring to Tony Abbott calling the burqa "confronting", and the fact that the muslim community jumped in and condemned the comment and repudiated any suggestion that the burqa shouldn't be allowed - that therefore means the muslim community somehow shares Tony Abbott's concerns about the burqa. Just because there was a "debate".
The existence of the debate is evidence of the significance we place on freedom of speech. This is not the same thing as saying the majority agree. Vocal opposition to Abbot proves that the Muslim community values the right to wear a burqa. The combination of complete silence from the 'good' Muslim community on the right to depict and mock Muhammed, and aggressive opposition to it from the 'bad' Muslims shows that the Muslim community does not value that right.
Quote:Yes brilliant contrast FD. We had the 18c debate because the government forced it upon us by proposing changes that almost no one else wanted.
Sounds far fetched to me. You don't get into government by being that stupid.
Quote:"Contrasted" to this, the muslim community merely joined hands with the rest of mainstream Australia and said a big "f_uck you George Brandis". It is completely unfathomable how you can interpret the Australian public as overwhelmingly rejecting a proposal to weaken the restrictions on our freedoms as some sort of demonstration of the Australian public's valuing of free speech. I mean muslims joined in the debate too right? So why don't you apply your retarded logic on them as well?
I have. Me being on the opposite side to the majority does not make me an extremist, as you claim. That is just plain stupid. Using that logic could paint 49% of the population as extremists with a single question. Likewise, the Muslim community being among the majority on 18c only shows that they are with the majority on one single issue, and certainly not on the issue of freedom of speech in general. The right to depict and mock Muhammed is a far more significant issue and one in which the Muslim community is against the vast majority.
Quote:I've invited you to present more examples of this supposed demonstration of the mainstream's relative love of freedom you insist is there. You refuse. So you can't blame me for picking on the only example you can think of.
I asked you a while back if there was anything we are legally not allowed to say in Australia. We were obviously unaware of the holocaust denial thing at the time, because you agreed with me that there was nothing we were not allowed to say. Merely achieving that, in spite of all the interests pushing for censorship, demonstrates our values. The holocaust denial thing is the exception, not the rule.
Quote:Awww poor FD - even he knows that there is no argument that the new anti-terror laws aren't an egregious attack on our freedoms, so he pretends not to know about them. Which I must say is a brave facade to keep up - I mean you'd literally have to live in a complete media blackout for the last week for this to be possible.
You claimed they are an attack on our freedom of speech. How?