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Poll Poll
Question: most effective attacks on our freedom of speech?

Muslims preventing people from mocking Muhammed    
  11 (55.0%)
Journalists not reporting some ASIO intel ops    
  4 (20.0%)
Something else    
  5 (25.0%)




Total votes: 20
« Created by: freediver on: Oct 9th, 2014 at 12:43pm »

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Is Islam against free speech? (Read 157372 times)
|dev|null
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #150 - Oct 2nd, 2014 at 11:18am
 
Mattyfisk wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 10:54am:
|dev|null wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 10:26am:
Datalife wrote on Oct 1st, 2014 at 9:22pm:
What was the death toll? 


One - Graham Chapman.   Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin


Good point. He died of cancer.


Christians claimed it was "God's revenge" for the "blasphemy" of Life of Brian. 

Quote:
I blame Islam.


We all do.   Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Grin Grin Grin
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #151 - Oct 2nd, 2014 at 12:37pm
 
The Life of Brian, and that dodgy youtube video that may or may not have been about the prophet Muhammed, clearly demonstrate the vast gulf between the global Muslim community and the west on the issue of freedom of speech. Despite being so far behind, and despite being regularly confronted with the consequences of Islam's stance on the matter, the Muslim community still refuses to even have the debate about freedom of speech. They cannot even say the word without spitting.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #152 - Oct 2nd, 2014 at 1:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 12:37pm:
The Life of Brian, and that dodgy youtube video that may or may not have been about the prophet Muhammed, clearly demonstrate the vast gulf between the global Muslim community and the west on the issue of freedom of speech. Despite being so far behind, and despite being regularly confronted with the consequences of Islam's stance on the matter, the Muslim community still refuses to even have the debate about freedom of speech. They cannot even say the word without spitting.



So Muslims were responsible for Life of Brian?  You really are moving into crackpot territory!   Grin Grin Grin Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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"Pens and books are the weapons that defeat terrorism." - Malala Yousefzai, 2013.

"we will never ever solve violence while we grasp for overly simplistic solutions."
Freediver, 2007.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #153 - Oct 2nd, 2014 at 1:13pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 1st, 2014 at 7:41pm:
Quote:
and your only counter is to condemn muslims for not doing what no other Australian does


Plenty do - hence the 18C debate, and one of our major parties attempting to get rid of it. And that is a heated debate over a comparatively minor threat to freedom of speech.


Thats completely incoherent. That "heated debate" resulted in a massive majority of Australians indicating their support for restrictions being placed on our freedom in the interests of protecting minorities from vilification - and forcing the government to scrap their plans to remove those restrictions.

Mainstream muslims join hands with mainstream Australians in calling for a balance between the right to free speech and the right to not be vilified. Mainstream muslims are no more and no less in favour of our freedoms as the rest of mainstream Australia. Your problem is that you don't represent the mainstream - so you view mainstream muslim views about freedom (but curiously not the rest of mainstream Australia - who are the same) - as somehow un-Australian - when in fact it is you who is out of step with our values.

Quote:
Nice try at shifting the goal posts. It is impossible to demonstrate your values when they are never put to the test. When they are, Muslims fail. When the OIC tried to use the UN to destroy freedom of speech and freedom of religion, how many of our Muslim leaders could bring themselves to utter the word freedom? When head hacking lunatics all over the world blew up over books, videos, cartoons etc, how many of our Muslim leaders could bring themselves to utter the word freedom in a single one of their frequent press releases?


According to the only example you have offered (the 18c debate), non muslims fail too.

If you can offer an actual example of mainstream non-muslims doing more than mainstream muslims in demonstrating their freedom credentials, then I'm all ears. Otherwise you should either get off the muslim's case, or start framing this as a whole-of-society problem, in which muslims are in no way unique.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #154 - Oct 2nd, 2014 at 6:23pm
 
Brandis and Abbott botched the 18c debate, for sure.
There should be no legal intervention to protect people’s subjective feelings - what is offensive , insulting or humiliating are largely personal issues of sensitivity and no law can set an objective standard for subjective perception.
Replacing these with intimidate and vilify removes some of the exessively subjective aspects of the current wording but is not a sufficiently clear distinction from what is in place.

Once the anti terror laws are bedded down this issue shoul be and will be revisited.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #155 - Oct 2nd, 2014 at 6:31pm
 
Soren wrote on Oct 2nd, 2014 at 6:23pm:
Brandis and Abbott botched the 18c debate, for sure.


Now now, dear boy. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

You've botched quite a few things of late, no? When you blamed Islam for Australian terorism, you meant to blame (a) the cops and

(b) the Copts.

You can still blame Islam, you know. We'll still love you just the way you are.

Even if you have been botched.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #156 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 1:06pm
 
Quote:
Mainstream muslims join hands with mainstream Australians in calling for a balance between the right to free speech and the right to not be vilified.


LOL, do they also sing kumbayah?

What about depicting and mocking Muhammed?

Quote:
Mainstream muslims are no more and no less in favour of our freedoms as the rest of mainstream Australia.


Crap. When people draw cartoons of Muhammed, mainstream Muslims cannot bring themselves to utter the word freedom. Even Muslims like you avoid it like the plague.

Quote:
According to the only example you have offered (the 18c debate), non muslims fail too.


18c is not the only situation where we balance freedom of speech against other rights and freedoms Gandalf. By trying to make this point you merely demonstrate your inability to even comprehend what is going on. You have tried this trick before. Disagreeing over where to draw the line is not the same thing as being unable to utter the word freedom in a positive context because your religion is hostile to it.

Quote:
If you can offer an actual example of mainstream non-muslims doing more than mainstream muslims in demonstrating their freedom credentials, then I'm all ears. Otherwise you should either get off the muslim's case, or start framing this as a whole-of-society problem, in which muslims are in no way unique.


The 18c debate. The Muhammed cartoons. The Muhammed video. The Satanic verses. I have explained what makes Muslims unique in every one of my last dozen posts. I have pointed out your own taboos. You pretend your values, and those of other Muslims, are compatible with western values, but you can only do this when you ignore the issue of whether people have a right to depict and mock Muhammed. Nothing demonstrates Islam's offense at western values more clearly than this one issue. You running away from it is hardly reassuring, and is not going to convince anyone.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #157 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 3:22pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 1:06pm:
Crap. When people draw cartoons of Muhammed, mainstream Muslims cannot bring themselves to utter the word freedom. Even Muslims like you avoid it like the plague.


And what do non-muslims say? Its very simple FD - if you think mainstream muslims are less vocal or enthusiastic or whatever about this issue than mainstream Australia, then show us how - with evidence.

freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 1:06pm:
The 18c debate. The Muhammed cartoons. The Muhammed video. The Satanic verses. I have explained what makes Muslims unique in every one of my last dozen posts.


Mainstream muslims have shown a reluctance to jump up and down demanding that people stand up and insult them - yes you have made that point FD, and I agree it is true.

What you have not done though is demonstrated that mainstream Australians are any different. What do they say on the issue of the Muhammad cartoons or the video? Are they any more pro-freedom of speech than mainstream muslims on these issues? We don't know, because you haven't provided any evidence.

But the evidence that I can think of indicates they are not - the 18c debate, which you bizarrely continue to cite this as evidence that non-muslims are more pro-freedom, somehow. Several surveys came out where a huge majority of Australians were in favour of laws to protect people from merely being offended.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #158 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 6:46pm
 
Quote:
And what do non-muslims say? Its very simple FD - if you think mainstream muslims are less vocal or enthusiastic or whatever about this issue than mainstream Australia, then show us how - with evidence.


Let's start with what Annie posted above.

Quote:
What you have not done though is demonstrated that mainstream Australians are any different


Have you ever asked a mainstream Australian whether it is OK to ban Muhammed cartoons? Mainstream Australians debate issues like the 18c legislation. As I have already pointed out, this is a very long way from the debate that needs to happen within the Muslim community about the right to depict and mock Muhammed. For most Australians, it simply goes without saying. That we can have a significant minority of Australians (ie Muslims) who are fundamentally opposed to freedom of speech, without a broad debate, is reflective of the efforts of Muslims such as yourself to avoid the debate and misrepresent the compatibility of Islam and western values. A good demonstration of this has occurred right here in this thread. Muslims are not having the debate about freedom of speech. Every time a non-Muslim asks a Muslim about the topic, the Muslim pretends that have suddenly gone deaf. If you honestly believe that mainstream Australians are indifferent to their right to depict and mock religious figures, you are simply deluded. I can only conclude from your efforts to avoid the debate that you are aware of how Islam is so irretrievably at odds with western values.

Quote:
But the evidence that I can think of indicates they are not - the 18c debate


The 18c debate was not about the right to depict and mock Muhammed. It was about balancing conflicting rights and freedoms. Banning the depiction and mockery of Muhammed on the other hand is an outright rejection of the most basic precepts of freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

Quote:
which you bizarrely continue to cite this as evidence that non-muslims are more pro-freedom, somehow


I have not cited anything as evidence, because it never occurred to me that you would suggest I need to prove it.

Before we go into the evidence of whether non-Muslims are pro-freedom, can we finally have a response from you regarding your own views on whether people should have the right to depict and mock Muhammed? I would hate to falsely accuse you of being able to answer a basic question regarding your views.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #159 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 6:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 6:46pm:
I have not cited anything as evidence, because it never occurred to me that you would suggest I need to prove it.


Of course you do.

Lets start with:
a) mainstream muslims demanding that Muhammad cartoons be banned
b) mainstream non-muslims demanding that people have the right to make Muhammad cartoons

You stake an awful lot on these two assumptions being unquestioned fact. I don't think they are.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #160 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:06pm
 
Quote:
mainstream muslims demanding that Muhammad cartoons be banned


Does the OIC count as mainstream?

You have failed to produce a single Muslim speaking out in direct support of this right, in response to a very long list of Muslims and Muslim organisations trying to destroy this right, and Islam itself being opposed to the right.

You have also proven yourself unwilling to state your own views on the matter.

The ball is in your court Gandalf.

Quote:
mainstream non-muslims demanding that people have the right to make Muhammad cartoons


We already have that right. Why would we demand something we already have? But just to humour you, and to offer an example I have already given in this thread, Barak Obama recently demanded that the right be maintained. You'll have trouble finding non-Muslims who disagree with him. It was basically an exercise in stating the bleeding obvious.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #161 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 6:46pm:
can we finally have a response from you regarding your own views on whether people should have the right to depict and mock Muhammed?


Your amnesia on this forum is simply breathtaking FD. For someone who seems to remember every keyboard stroke of Abu, you have remarkable lapses when it comes to discussions that were over 20 pages long.

Its a loaded question - yes people should have the right to make cartoons depicting and mocking any historical figure, sacred or otherwise. But there is a fine line between free speech and vilification - and people should not have the right to use such depictions to vilify and entire group. And by the way, mainstream Australians agree with me - even more so, as most Australians support laws to protect against mere offense. I don't go that far.

All been discussed before of course.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #162 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:17pm
 
I haven't heard of the OIC - please show me what they have said that indicates mainstream muslims are less supportive of free speech than the rest of society.

freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:
You have failed to produce a single Muslim speaking out in direct support of this right


I'm sure I could find one, just as I could find one speaking to the opposite. But that wouldn't tell us anything about what the mainstream says. Just as you have singularly failed to produce anything that indicates the mainstream non-muslims are any different to muslims on this issue.

freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:
You have also proven yourself unwilling to state your own views on the matter.


Yes of course, 30 page threads don't count.

freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:
We already have that right. Why would we demand something we already have?


Muslims in Australia already have that right, why would they demand something they already have? You really do excel at finding interesting and original ways to not make sense FD.

freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:06pm:
You'll have trouble finding non-Muslims who disagree with him.


And you just flat out fail at demonstrating there is any reason whatsoever to think that mainstream muslims disagree with him.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #163 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:52pm
 
Quote:
Its a loaded question


Only to someone who is prepared to discard freedom of speech but doesn't want to admit it.

Quote:
yes people should have the right to make cartoons depicting and mocking any historical figure, sacred or otherwise. But there is a fine line between free speech and vilification - and people should not have the right to use such depictions to vilify and entire group.


So the Muhammed cartoons should be banned?

Quote:
I haven't heard of the OIC - please show me what they have said that indicates mainstream muslims are less supportive of free speech than the rest of society.


http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#OIC_vs...

Quote:
I'm sure I could find one, just as I could find one speaking to the opposite.


You tried once already. You failed. You produced yet another example of a Muslim refusing to mention the words freedom of speech. There is no shortage of the opposite. Just say Yadda 3 times and they will appear.

Quote:
But that wouldn't tell us anything about what the mainstream says.


It is not just what they say. That is merely the first step. They are a long way from being part of the solution here.

Quote:
Muslims in Australia already have that right, why would they demand something they already have?


There should be some kind of debate within the Muslim community about the right of people to depict and mock Muhammed. The only Muslims speaking out on the issue are the ones who want to behead those who insult the prophet. The rest of the Muslim community is disturbingly silent on the issue. That is dangerous, and it encourages the head hacking lunatics when the so-called 'good' Muslims won't take a stance against them.
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Re: Is Islam against free speech?
Reply #164 - Oct 3rd, 2014 at 8:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:52pm:
http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values#OIC_vs...


Sorry, I thought you were going to show me a demonstration of Australian mainstream muslims demonstrating their hostility to free speech. My bad.

freediver wrote on Oct 3rd, 2014 at 7:52pm:
There should be some kind of debate within the Muslim community about the right of people to depict and mock Muhammed.


Just like there was a debate in the wider community, in which it was overwhelmingly agreed that freedom of speech should be limited - even to the point to protect people from mere offense?

Really not making much progress on the whole "non-muslims in Australia have demonstrated they  like our freedoms more than mainstream Australian muslims" - are we?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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