Australian Politics Forum - Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website

freediver

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Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website
Reply #30 - Aug 8^th, 2008 at 11:38am

I understand what FD is saying when he disputes the use of the term scientific proof. There is no such thing as scientific proof, there are scientific theories that are supported by scientific evidence.

Thanks Locutius. This is one of the hardest points to communicate about science. I suspect it is something to do with how science is taught. The scientific method is either not taught at all, or taught in a cursory manner. Then they go back to pretending that the little experiments they do prove the theories, and that the history of science consists of little more than clever new experiments proving to the scientific community and convincing them overnight that the new theory is right.

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mozzaok

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Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website
Reply #31 - Aug 8^th, 2008 at 12:23pm

It is academic, and totally unhelpful to get pedantic about scientific facts.
Are known basic elements facts, or theories?

Sure we must accept that all theories are just hypotheses with varying degrees of evidence supporting them, but in so many cases the preponderance of evidence is so great, that to challenge, or diminish the reliability of these theories is actually just mischievous promotion of misinformation.

Unfortunately what is an obvious and fair point, gets misused by the religious lobby, to try and elevate absolutely ridiculous beliefs, with absolutely no evidence to support them, to the same status as well established, and well documented, and repeatedly testable scientific theories, and they do not deserve to be allowed to claim that status.

It is only religion which claims to have all the answers, and claims to know absolute truth, science is never foolish enough to make such claims.

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freediver

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Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website
Reply #32 - Aug 8^th, 2008 at 12:29pm

It is academic, and totally unhelpful to get pedantic about scientific facts. It is a complete misunderstanding of science that causes most of these problems.

No it isn't. It goes right to the heart of the matter.

Sure we must accept that all theories are just hypotheses with varying degrees of evidence supporting them, but in so many cases the preponderance of evidence is so great, that to challenge, or diminish the reliability of these theories is actually just mischievous promotion of misinformation.

You could say the same about the theory of relativity. That's just the way science is.

Unfortunately what is an obvious and fair point, gets misused by the religious lobby, to try and elevate absolutely ridiculous beliefs, with absolutely no evidence to support them, to the same status as well established, and well documented, and repeatedly testable scientific theories, and they do not deserve to be allowed to claim that status.

They can only do so because people like Dawkins misrepresent science in order to attack them. It was the evolution lobby that opened the door on this one, not the religious lobby. If the Dawkins' of this world destroy the definition of science to attack religion, then it is inevitable that religious people will take advantage of that opening.

It is only religion which claims to have all the answers, and claims to know absolute truth, science is never foolish enough to make such claims.

Funny you should say that given your comments about mischievous new theories.

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mozzaok

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Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website
Reply #33 - Aug 8^th, 2008 at 12:57pm

I guess it comes down to trust FD.

If we have a religion telling people that god will protect them from bullets, should they accept that, or would they err on the side of the repeated evidence that people hit with bullets usually get hurt?

That is the basic question, do we give a baseless claim credence, because it claims religious divination, or do we go with the best evidence we have?

It is a tough question, for many, but glaringly obvious to others.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #34 - Aug 8^th, 2008 at 2:04pm If we have a religion telling people that god will protect them from bullets Religions don't tend to make claims that can be tested. The few that do, like doomsday cults, don't last long.
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locutius Gold Member Offline You can't fight in here! It's the War Room Posts: 1817 Queensland Gender:	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #35 - Aug 8^th, 2008 at 2:08pm freediver wrote on Aug 8^th, 2008 at 2:04pm: If we have a religion telling people that god will protect them from bullets Religions don't tend to make claims that can be tested. The few that do, like *doomsday cults, don't last long* . Nice one FD !
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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #36 - Aug 9^th, 2008 at 8:49am Are they not ALL doomsday cults? This life is just a test to see how good a seat you will get in heaven. All death cults degrade themselves by placing more importance on life after death, than life itself.
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Pommy Bastard Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 105	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #37 - Aug 9^th, 2008 at 9:40am All religions promise 'Jam tomorrow", none deliver.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website
Reply #38 - Aug 9^th, 2008 at 9:52am

mozzaok wrote on Aug 9^th, 2008 at 8:49am:

Are they not ALL doomsday cults?

This life is just a test to see how good a seat you will get in heaven.

All death cults degrade themselves by placing more importance on life after death, than life itself.

All religions prescribe how we should live and offer a solution to the mystery of death, because what we all want is freedom from fear and doubt.

Is there a greater mystery and a more consuming fear than death?

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mozzaok

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Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website
Reply #39 - Aug 9^th, 2008 at 10:50am

Quote:

a more consuming fear than death?

Agonising pain is up there for me.

I had a very prolonged and very painful experience as a young man, and I would always have rather died, than go through it again, until the responsibility of parenthood made me reconsider.

But if it was just me to consider, no worries, give me death any day.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #40 - Aug 10^th, 2008 at 8:31pm Apparently most people who hang themselves the slow way (no broken neck) change their mind at the last second and choose life. For most of them, it's too late.
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Pommy Bastard Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 105	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #41 - Aug 11^th, 2008 at 10:26am freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2008 at 8:31pm: Apparently most people who hang themselves the slow way (no broken neck) change their mind at the last second and choose life. For most of them, it's too late. How do we know that the ones who succeeded changed their minds?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #42 - Aug 11^th, 2008 at 10:39am From the cctv video you get in jails and nuthouses.
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Pommy Bastard Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 105	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #43 - Aug 14^th, 2008 at 2:21pm As a specialist in the treatment of schizophrenia, I don't care much for the term "nuthouses." And I don't find your argument for cctv images very persuasive..
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47369 At my desk.	Re: Richard Dawkins ImagineFrom his website Reply #44 - Aug 14^th, 2008 at 2:26pm Another source would be survivors of either failed attempts or who were cut down by someone at the last minute.
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