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Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence (Read 26703 times)
mozzaok
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #45 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 11:48pm
 
So Malik, are you actively campaigning within Islam to see an end brought to these barbaric death penalties?
Do you have a problem with the sharia law?

And to Al, you may find that quoting that moses mentioned it may not help your argument if you are attempting to portray Islam as anything but anachronistic.
I believe the romans used to throw christians to the lions, but I do not recall seeing any of that in modern rome. Maybe you should take some well intentioned advice and drag your beliefs, and the standards that go with them, into the twenty first century.
Things have progressed in the rest of the world over the last 1400 odd years.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #46 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 11:56pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 22nd, 2008 at 11:48pm:
So Malik, are you actively campaigning within Islam to see an end brought to these barbaric death penalties?
Do you have a problem with the sharia law?


It's not shariah I have a problem with at all. I believe that Shariah law is God's law and it would be foolish of you to expect me to denounce it, but the problem seems to be that you think that any nation which claims to be adhering to Shariah law is actually doing so. That simply isn't the case just as if I had claimed to be a Doctor without actually fulfilling the criteria on doing so.

In regards to the Teacher with the bear, it was completely unislamic to even arrest her for what she did if they think that she required the death penalty then they obviously don't understand Islam.

In regards to the cartoonist, he was not a part of an Islamic State and wasn't bound by it's laws. There are better diplomatic ways to deal with that issue instead of calling for his death.

The amount of damage that has been done to the countries who allowed it to happen's trade with the Middle East has really hurt them. The boycott worked quite well.

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mozzaok
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #47 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:05am
 
It does only seem to verify the widely held belief, that Islam, is out of control.
The fact is that all these acts, which you say are un-islamic, are all perpetrated by muslims.
I posted just yesterday about the cleric demanding female circumcision, yet you say it is against Islam, and in fact carries???
You guessed it, the DEATH penalty.
It does seem to illustrate that any wackjob, can justify whatever he wants, by quoting one text or another from the koran.
All this is what we see of your religion, and you not only expect, but demand, respect.
I repeat, get your own house in order, and then run that respect thing by us again.
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Al-Gharib
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #48 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:08am
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 22nd, 2008 at 11:27pm:
Can you therefore please confirm that such incidents shown on this link is false, doctored, didn't happen etc.

I believe this was from a doco called "Fitna" by a Dutch right wing parliamentarian. The actual footage I believe was from Saudi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URxqP8A6FJ0



I heard Ayatollah Khomeini somewhere in there. That shows it's from Iran and not Saudi. The fact that all those recorded in the video were not wearing traditional Saudi garments also verifies that.


I've never heard of burying people in sand before. As far as I'm aware, it's baseless.


Also, just have a quick read of the following:

Quote:
The scholars have listed the ways of establishing proof of zina, and there are four ways:

1-    Testimony of witnesses

2-    Admission by the parties concerned

3-    Pregnancy of a woman who has no husband or master

4-    If the husband engages in li’aan and the wife refuses to take part in li’aan

With regard to witnesses to zina, they should be four people whose testimony is acceptable, and they should state that they have seen the zina in clear terms, i.e., they should have seen the man’s penis in the woman’s vagina.  If some of them only testify that they saw them naked, or they describe certain positions or movements, that is not sufficient to proof that zina took place.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Sharh al-Mumti’ (6/157):

They should describe zina in clear terms, such as saying: “I saw his penis in her vagina”. There is no alternative to that. If they say: “We saw him on top of her and they were naked”, that is not acceptable. Even if they say “We saw him doing with her what a man does with his wife,” that is not sufficient as testimony. They must say “We bear witness that his penis was in her vagina.” And this is very difficult, as the man said who was testified against at the time of ‘Umar: “If you were among the (four) thighs you would never be able to give this testimony.” Hence Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah mentioned that at his time no case of zina was proven by means of testimony from the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the time of Ibn Taymiyah. If no case was proven from that time until the other, then we do not know of any case that was proven by testimony up till our own times, because it is very difficult. End quote.

This strictness with regard to testimony about zina serves only to achieve the purpose aimed at by sharee’ah, which is to conceal people and not spread immorality, and to make societies avoid accusations against people’s honour and aspersions on their lineages.

Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Jaami’ li Ahkaam al-Qur’aan (5/83):

Allaah has stated that testimony in a case of zina must be given by four people, so as to make it hard for those who are testifying to such a thing, and to conceal people. End quote.

Shaykh ‘Abd al-Rahmaan al-Sa’di said in his Tafseer (1/563): “Why did they not produce four witnesses?” [al-Noor 24:13], i.e., why did the accusers not bring witnesses to the things they accused them of? “four witnesses” i.e., of good character. “Since they (the slanderers) have not produced witnesses! Then with Allaah they are the liars” – even if they are certain about that in themselves, they are liars in Allaah’s judgement, because Allaah has forbidden them to speak of that without four witnesses. Hence Allaah says: “Then with Allaah they are the liars”, and He did not say “Then they are the liars”. All of this points to the grave sanctity of the Muslim’s honour, so it is not permissible to make accusations against it without establishing testimony. End quote.
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #49 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:26am
 
Al-Gharib wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:08am:
The scholars have listed the ways of establishing proof of zina, and there are four ways:

1-    Testimony of witnesses

2-    Admission by the parties concerned

3-    Pregnancy of a woman who has no husband or master

4-    If the husband engages in li’aan and the wife refuses to take part in li’aan



Thanks. I'm guessing that zina is adultry. Can you please translate li’aan for me. I think it means sex.

Al-Gharib wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:08am:
I've never heard of burying people in sand before. As far as I'm aware, it's baseless.



Well, it's clearly shown on the YouTube link. The condemned are clearly half buried when stoned. The footage clearly shows them actually being buried. You've confirm that it was Khomeni's voice and that it was most likely from Iran. Therefore, how can they still be baseless? Do you think that footage was doctored?
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #50 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:26am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:05am:
The fact is that all these acts, which you say are un-islamic, are all perpetrated by muslims.


And many acts that were un-christian were committed by christians, just as many acts that were un-jewish were committed by jews, and similarly many acts that were against humanity were committed by athiests.


mozzaok wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:05am:
I posted just yesterday about the cleric demanding female circumcision, yet you say it is against Islam, and in fact carries???
You guessed it, the DEATH penalty.
It does seem to illustrate that any wackjob, can justify whatever he wants, by quoting one text or another from the koran.
All this is what we see of your religion, and you not only expect, but demand, respect.
I repeat, get your own house in order, and then run that respect thing by us again.



Colonel Sanders (the KFC guy/Mr. Madula Oblangata) can get up tomorrow and claim that anyone who doesnt eat KFC is not a Christian. Or that anyone who doesn't buy a zinger burger is sinning. Does that mean he's right?

Anyone can get up and say anything.

The problem here is, just because someone says something, does not mean they are experts in the field of religion. It could just as well be a hillbilly in the middle of nowhere trying to get their 15 minutes of fame. If you really want to learn about a religion, you'd go to the real scholars of the religion. Not some random tom dick and harry off the road.
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #51 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:38am
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:26am:
Well, it's clearly shown on the YouTube link. The condemned are clearly half buried when stoned. The footage clearly shows them actually being buried. You've confirm that it was Khomeni's voice and that it was most likely from Iran. Therefore, how can they still be baseless? Do you think that footage was doctored?


I meant baseless on the topic of burying in sand. I've never heard of that before. In regards to the footage, I never said it was doctored.
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #52 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:51am
 
Quote:
Thanks. I'm guessing that zina is adultry. Can you please translate li’aan for me. I think it means sex.


It means to invoke the curse of God.

Basically if one partner in marriage was accused of adultery, and they refused to invoke the curse of God upon themselves in the case they were lying, then their guilt would be assumed.
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #53 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 12:53am
 
Anyway this thread is getting quite off topic. I suggest if people want to discuss capital punishment under Islam, then make a thread about it and discuss it there.
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #54 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 5:56am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 22nd, 2008 at 9:25pm:
I can assure you FD, it's not an empty threat. I had never wanted to do this in the first place because I believed that perhaps you, being a moderator would moderate the forums and prevent such a gross incitement of hate continue. I've reported many posts as being insulting and offensive and you haven't done a thing about it so it's obvious that you are not going to stop him by simple requests.


I suggest you don't go down this pathway, Malik, because all it's going to do is further sour the majority of Australians against Islam. If this forum is sued, penalised, or shut down, it will make national headlines. Far better would be to continue the trend of Muslims coming to post here and debate the points. This alone has already had a significant balancing effect, in my opinion, and I for one welcome that balancing effect. That's how you counter what you feel is hatred, real or not, and incitement to hatred. Censorhip isn't going to work, it will only create more prejudice against Islam.
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #55 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 8:42am
 
Ray_A wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 5:56am:
I suggest you don't go down this pathway, Malik, because all it's going to do is further sour the majority of Australians against Islam. If this forum is sued, penalised, or shut down, it will make national headlines. Far better would be to continue the trend of Muslims coming to post here and debate the points. This alone has already had a significant balancing effect, in my opinion, and I for one welcome that balancing effect. That's how you counter what you feel is hatred, real or not, and incitement to hatred. Censorhip isn't going to work, it will only create more prejudice against Islam.

Then FD should start being tougher around here and stop letting incitement of hatred against Muslims and from what he says, from Jews happen. It's inappropriate and no proper dialogue can occur while this continues.

Why should we have to be put through that when all we want to do is contribute?

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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #56 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:14am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 8:42am:
Then FD should start being tougher around here and stop letting incitement of hatred against Muslims and from what he says, from Jews happen. It's inappropriate and no proper dialogue can occur while this continues.

Why should we have to be put through that when all we want to do is contribute?


Malik, I speak for myself. Sprint's posts haven't incited me to hate Muslims. In fact, I ignore most of Sprint's posts on Islam, with the exception of when I first came here, and I took exception to some of his ideas (he can verify that) about Muslims, which I felt were stereotyped. I'm sure I have some of my own, still, and hopefully you and others will clear those up.

I've made similar arguments about Mormons (although I'm an ex-Mormon), that the slander and vilification of Mormons on the Internet could lead to actual violence against them in the future. For saying this I was ridiculed to kingdom come. No Islamic society would tolerate this, but it is tolerated in Australia and America. They (Mormons) are lambasted and ridiculed, both as a Church and personally, in ways that would make anyone shudder (I can provide the Internet evidence if you want). However, all I could do is add my voice of concern, because it's a free country, and in America the 1st Amendment protects free speech. Outside of personal defamation, you can say anything you want about any religion in America. In Oz we have tighter laws, but general criticism of religion still continues, and is tolerated. Witness some media criticism of the Pope's recent visit, and the enactment of some radical laws at gatherings, which received criticism from the legal fraternity.

I think you're inflating the impact that Sprint's posts may have, and I think you underestimate the intelligence of many readers, who can make up their own minds without having to take what Sprint says as Gospel. I don't. But I believe he's entitled to speak his mind, whether he's right or wrong. And you are entitled to rebut what he says. Fair minded people will make intelligent judgements about all of this. But when someone is censored, or threatened - out the window goes free speech, and in comes anger at being denied free speech, and the opportunity to say what you really feel. What do you think created the Pauline Hanson phenomenon? What do you think sparked the French Revolution? And the result of the latter was not more religion, but a total abandonment of it in France, because people were denied basic freedoms.
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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #57 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:32am
 
You see it starts with open hatred towards a particular group of people. When enough of these people who incite hatred get together they will take it much further, the genocide in Bosnia, the genocide in Germany and the genocide in Rwanda are all testemony to that.

This incitement of hatred can cause people to do stupid things.

5000 Australians on the beach of Cronulla demonstrated quite clearly that even a person with illogical views can move the masses into action when they are ignorant enough about the facts and if FD allows these people to continue doing it on this forum then he is giving them a place to sew their seeds of hatred.

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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #58 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:54am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:32am:
You see it starts with open hatred towards a particular group of people. When enough of these people who incite hatred get together they will take it much further, the genocide in Bosnia, the genocide in Germany and the genocide in Rwanda are all testemony to that.

This incitement of hatred can cause people to do stupid things.

5000 Australians on the beach of Cronulla demonstrated quite clearly that even a person with illogical views can move the masses into action when they are ignorant enough about the facts and if FD allows these people to continue doing it on this forum then he is giving them a place to sew their seeds of hatred.



Yes, that's because they are rallied together.

At the moment this is just 1 or 2 anonymous internet bloggers in an anonymous forum. Take legal action and it will become public, the media (being the media) will report what and how they want (and from past trends you know which side they are going to take), it will galvanise people, those who are already prejudiced could rally together Cronulla style or at least have a concerted voice against Islam, those who are secular, neutral or undecided will more than likely side in favour of free speech and Muslims and Islam will be further tainted.

Think about it - who is Sprint "inciting"? There a few members in here. One assumes that they are intelligent and rational adults. Whatever Sprint has said is nothing new and generally taken with a grain of salt, laughed off or reputed. Legal action will make this public and suddenly a nation will hear about his "incitements". This will be the rallying call for those who are already prejudiced and others will turn away from your cause (remember, I mentioned that elsewhere in response to Abu).

This is the wrong path. There will be only one winner - YOU.
You will feel happy about yourself for punishing Sprint for his opinions and "exposing" him as a "bigot".
Sprint will be publically labelled as a "racist".
FD will be labelled as a sympathiser to racists ideals or at least a bad moderator.
We will all lose a good forum.
And worst, Muslims will once again be seen as the oppressors of freedom.

You are living in a Western world. This tactic may work in Iran or Dubai or Saudi or even (I lament) Indonesia but it will not work here. Legally, you could be in the right (I don't know, I'm not an expert) but you won't be winning the hearts and minds of the wider and general populace.

Furthermore, I don't believe that the racist element (or outright hatred) is prevalent in Australia. 

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Re: Sprints Posts=Inciting religious intolerence
Reply #59 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:58am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 9:32am:
5000 Australians on the beach of Cronulla demonstrated quite clearly that even a person with illogical views can move the masses into action when they are ignorant enough about the facts and if FD allows these people to continue doing it on this forum then he is giving them a place to sew their seeds of hatred.


This is true, and we've discussed before that Cronulla isn't Australia, nor is it how most Australians think. I have met "dinky-di" Aussies who moved out of Cronulla not only because of the racism against Muslims, but European "wogs".

I'm also aware of racism and anti-Muslim sentiment among some where I live, but I can't say it's anywhere near "epidemic", and most people want a peaceful society where we can all tolerate different beliefs and traditions. I think the real fear many Australians have, whether grounded in fact of fiction, is that any religion will try to influence government to impose laws the majority don't want. I think the attitude is "live and let live", but don't tell me how to live. That is what they fear, and how some Islamic countries are governed brings them no solace. That's the last thing they want here.

Perhaps, I'm only suggesting, that Muslims can quell these fears, but doing things like trying to legalise polygamy isn't going to help, because regardless of the hypocrisy, most Australians believe this is basically a Christian society, built upon basic Christian ideals. The idea of this being overturned by Islam doesn't sleep well with them. It is a secular state founded on Judeo-Christian ideals, which includes the freedom to be critical of Christianity, not easily won, since last century into this one, blasphemy was a crime. No one wants to go back to those days, and rightly or wrongly, many perceive that this could happen when considering how other Islamic countries are run. 

I'm only suggesting some of the roots of prejudice. Racism is something Aborigines still experience, and that's not because of religion.  So talking about religion and racism isn't always the same thing.

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