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The Ideal Western society (Read 5042 times)
Sprintcyclist
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The Ideal Western society
Jul 21st, 2008 at 8:53am
 
Lets throw our ideals into a thread.

For a start, Aussie to me contains many of the ideals of a society
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #1 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 10:22am
 
It's your thread, Sprint. You first.




Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 8:53am:
Aussie to me contains many of the ideals of a society


This doesn't tell me anything - even the Aussie ideals are put aside when convenient - there are many examples. The Aussie Fair Go which we all value highly has been suspended time and time again for no good reason other than political gain or personal bias etc.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #2 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:38am
 
The Ideal Western society would be one free of religion.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #3 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:41am
 
Pommy Bastard wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:38am:
The Ideal Western society would be one free of religion.


nice, so i take it ur looking forward to the USSR coming back??

or would u prefer China??

Grin Grin Grin
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #4 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:44am
 
Why would it of necessity be like one of those? I thought we were looking at ideals here, not past failures.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #5 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:50am
 
Pommy Bastard wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:44am:
Why would it of necessity be like one of those?


u mentioned the ideal western society is one free of religion.......just showing u want happened to societies that were free of religion.

as much as u may hate religion, religion does provide us with a moral code, without it, we are merely applying our whims and desires. and without it, there would be widespread chaos.

the problems lie in the extremes of religion.......too little (or none of it), then chaos occurs and too much of it, then it's oppressive. u need a middle ground.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #6 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:54am
 
Pommy Bastard wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:38am:
The Ideal Western society would be one free of religion.


That's the ideal communist society. Jsut ask John Lennon.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #7 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:20pm
 
GSS wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:50am:
u mentioned the ideal western society is one free of religion.......just showing u want happened to societies that were free of religion.


No you didn't. You showed me what effect totalitarian regimes, ones which forbid religion are like. Or at least what totalitarian regimes in the past have been like.

You showed me nothing at all about waht a proposed "ideal" Western society without religion would be like.

Quote:
as much as u may hate religion, religion does provide us with a moral code, without it, we are merely applying our whims and desires. and without it, there would be widespread chaos.


Utter claptrap. For that to be true you not only deny centuries of philosophical thought, but also claim that we are living under a theocratic legal system, which we plainly are not.

Quote:
the problems lie in the extremes of religion.......too little (or none of it), then chaos occurs and too much of it, then it's oppressive. u need a middle ground.


Rubbish.

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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #8 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:24pm
 
but also claim that we are living under a theocratic legal system, which we plainly are not.

You don't have to live under theocracy to obtain a moral code from religion. They are two completely separable issues.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #9 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:34pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:24pm:
You don't have to live under theocracy to obtain a moral code from religion. They are two completely separable issues.


That is true, but religion is not the sole source of moral thought.

I would contend that within our proposed "Ideal" western society, it is not necessary to draw any moral or legal ethical code from a religion or several religions.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #10 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:36pm
 
Quote:
No you didn't. You showed me what effect totalitarian regimes, ones which forbid religion are like. Or at least what totalitarian regimes in the past have been like.


the only way to free society of religion is by being totalitarian and forbidding it by force.

u cannot have a society which simply gives up religion altogether, because whether u like it or not some ppl will always believe in it.

Quote:
Utter claptrap. For that to be true you not only deny centuries of philosophical thought, but also claim that we are living under a theocratic legal system, which we plainly are not.


while we don't live in a theocratic legal system, alot of our basic values/beliefs/definition of right vs wrong are derived from Judeo-Christian concepts.

Quote:
Rubbish.


gotta love ur maturity, rather than just disagreeing u decide to say other ppl's thoughts are "rubbish".

okay, i will give u an example of what i mean:
* do u remember the black-out that happened in New York city a few years back? do u remember what the people did? well, if not, they basically went looting, broke every shop window and grabbed whatever they could.

they didn't care that stealing is a crime did they? why? because they didn't have religion or had very little religion in their lives. so what do u have - total chaos.

* other side - too much religion, it's becomes oppressive to the point that u have Taliban style rule or medieval Europe (to give u a christian example).

a middle ground solution is best......some religion, not too much and not too little.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #11 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:39pm
 
u cannot have a society which simply gives up religion altogether, because whether u like it or not some ppl will always believe in it

To be fair, we are talking about ideal societies, not real ones.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #12 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:49pm
 
GSS wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:36pm:
[quote]

the only way to free society of religion is by being totalitarian and forbidding it by force.


Utterly wrong.

A voluntary society, which I believe would be a necessity for a "ideal" Western society, could be one where all who choose to join it agree to foreswear religion, or agree to leave it should they choose to believe in the flying spaghetti monster, or other god.

Quote:
u cannot have a society which simply gives up religion altogether, because whether u like it or not some ppl will always believe in it.


Yes you can, see above.

Quote:
while we don't live in a theocratic legal system, alot of our basic values/beliefs/definition of right vs wrong are derived from Judeo-Christian concepts.


We are talking about an ideal society. Here you go;

Quote:
i•de•al   Audio Help   /aɪˈdiəl, aɪˈdil/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ahy-dee-uhl, ahy-deel] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a conception of something in its perfection.  
2. a standard of perfection or excellence.  
3. a person or thing conceived as embodying such a conception or conforming to such a standard, and taken as a model for imitation: Thomas Jefferson was his ideal.  
4. an ultimate object or aim of endeavor, esp. one of high or noble character: He refuses to compromise any of his ideals.  
5. something that exists only in the imagination: To achieve the ideal is almost hopeless.  
6. Mathematics. a subring of a ring, any element of which when multiplied by any element of the ring results in an element of the subring.  
–adjective 7. conceived as constituting a standard of perfection or excellence: ideal beauty.  
8. regarded as perfect of its kind: an ideal spot for a home.  
9. existing only in the imagination; not real or actual: Nature is real; beauty is ideal.  
10. advantageous; excellent; best: It would be ideal if she could accompany us as she knows the way.  
11. based upon an ideal or ideals: the ideal theory of numbers.  
12. Philosophy. a. pertaining to a possible state of affairs considered as highly desirable.  
b. pertaining to or of the nature of idealism.  



We are not talking about the nature of current society.

Quote:
gotta love ur maturity, rather than just disagreeing u decide to say other ppl's thoughts are "rubbish".


If I find someone's thoughts rubbish, I have the honesty to tell them so.

I also find being lectured on maturity from someone who uses the terms "u", "ur" and "ppl" in debate rather....sweet..


Quote:
okay, i will give u an example of what i mean:
* do u remember the black-out that happened in New York city a few years back? do u remember what the people did? well, if not, they basically went looting, broke every shop window and grabbed whatever they could.

they didn't care that stealing is a crime did they? why? because they didn't have religion or had very little religion in their lives. so what do u have - total chaos.


They also didn't have Socratic moral philosophy in their lives, should we blame an absence of Greek humanism too? But again, you are talking about societies which have failed to meet the ideal tag, why?

Quote:
* other side - too much religion, it's becomes oppressive to the point that u have Taliban style rule or medieval Europe (to give u a christian example).


All Arabic religions are totalitarian by nature, including all the Christian cults.

Quote:
a middle ground solution is best......some religion, not too much and not too little.


I disagree. A society without religion is best. Once you introduce religion into a society, you lay it open to abuse by snake oil salesmen, conjurors, and other such clerics who have a direct line to the Great Oogah Boogah in the sky.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #13 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:39pm:
To be fair, we are talking about ideal societies, not real ones.


Why bother with this then?

I may as well say that my ideal western society is one of peace, love and mung beans. Where all the men wore togas and the women wear nothing. We'll frolick through the immaculately kept gardens in summer and have android servants give us all the free massages we want. Kinda like the planet Aurora in Asimov's Robot novels (without the human solitude).

Wink
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #14 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:53pm
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:50pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:39pm:
To be fair, we are talking about ideal societies, not real ones.


Why bother with this then?

)


Just for the fun of debate old chap, it takes me back to my Cambridge days, punting along the Isis with dear old Berty Russel, Karl Marx, and JP Satre.

I find the rest of your post rather witty..
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #15 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 2:54pm
 
Why bother with this then?

Think of it as brainstorming. It's to come up with ideas, not shoot them down. Otherwise you end up like a bureacrat who says no that idea won't work, we don't have the correct forms for it. It is often helpful to forgoe questions on how to achieve something while you focus on what it is you want to achieve. Once you agree on something you want to achieve, it can be remarkably easy to achieve it.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #16 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:04pm
 
Excellent post, FD.

However, we refine our ideasand thoughts by holding them up for inspection, so that by having their weaknesses and inconsistencies exposed, we can refine them to perfection. No?
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #17 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:04pm
 
a brainstorming session is kind of useless if we're not going to be realistic.

imagine:
Person No. 1 - "oh, look we've developed the model for the perfect society. now what do we do?"
Person No. 2 - "well, we implement it of course."
Person No. 1 - "sorry, can't do that"
Person No. 2 - "why not?"
Person No. 1 - "well, u see it's not exactly realistic."
Person No. 2 - "so what's the point of it?"
Person No. 1 - "umm....umm....not sure, i'm going to have to get back to you on that"
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #18 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:07pm
 
a brainstorming session is kind of useless if we're not going to be realistic.

Wrong. The whole point of brainstorming, and why it is so useful, is to suspend criticism in order to generate ideas.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #19 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:07pm:
a brainstorming session is kind of useless if we're not going to be realistic.

Wrong. The whole point of brainstorming, and why it is so useful, is to suspend criticism in order to generate ideas.


yes, the whole point of brainstorming is to generate ideas, but it's to generate ideas that can work.

ideas that don't work in reality are a waste of everyone's time.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #20 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:07pm:
a brainstorming session is kind of useless if we're not going to be realistic.

Wrong. The whole point of brainstorming, and why it is so useful, is to suspend criticism in order to generate ideas.


Agreed.

The Japanese took a lead in many industries by instituting sessions of brainstorming, which they called "blue sky thinking". Within this, creative people, not limited to designers and engineers, were invited to throw any ideas WHATSOEVER around the concept "car", "TV", "washing machine".

Out of it came some of their most inovative products.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #21 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:12pm
 
it's to generate ideas that can work

By not discarding ideas just because you are too shortsighted to see how they could work at the moment.

ideas that don't work in reality are a waste of everyone's time

No they aren't because they get people thinking and generate more ideas. that's the whole point of brainstorming. That's the whole point of coming up with and ideal before trying to shape it to reality, rather than arbitrarily confining your ideals to your perception of reality. Otherwise your ideals are not ideals at all but nothing more than a reflection of the boundaries you impose on yourself.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #22 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:13pm
 
GSS wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:10pm:
yes, the whole point of brainstorming is to generate ideas, but it's to generate ideas that can work.

ideas that don't work in reality are a waste of everyone's time.


No it's not. The process of delopment, testing, and design, are there to prove what ideas are feasible, brainstorming is not.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #23 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:12pm:
it's to generate ideas that can work

By not discarding ideas just because you are too shortsighted to see how they could work at the moment.

ideas that don't work in reality are a waste of everyone's time

No they aren't because they get people thinking and generate more ideas. that's the whole point of brainstorming. That's the whole point of coming up with and ideal before trying to shape it to reality, rather than arbitrarily confining your ideals to your perception of reality. Otherwise your ideals are not ideals at all but nothing more than a reflection of the boundaries you impose on yourself.


maybe u can try to demonstrate ur point with an example.

we had pommy bastard saying an ideal society is one that frees itself of religion........how do we achieve this?

realistically........i'm saying, no matter what, there will always be people who believe in religion. that's reality, maybe i'm being short-sighted here, tell me how we will make all people toss aside religion to create the ideal society?
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #24 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:35pm
 
Just because it is not achievable does not mean it isn't ideal. There is value in recognising ideals, even if they are unachievable.

For example, an ideal of science is to uncover truth. In practice that ideal is never achievable. But the search for truth via the scientific method is still one of the most valuable endeavours humanity has undertaken.

While the absence of religion from society is not possible, the ideal no doubt contributed to far more messy principles like the separation of church and state.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #25 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:52pm
 
GSS wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:24pm:
we had pommy bastard saying an ideal society is one that frees itself of religion........how do we achieve this?


I've already answered that one.

Quote:
realistically........i'm saying, no matter what, there will always be people who believe in religion. that's reality, maybe i'm being short-sighted here, tell me how we will make all people toss aside religion to create the ideal society?


You do not need to. Enough people already have the moral courage not to need the crutch of religion to form a society.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #26 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 4:59pm
 
GSS wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:10pm:
yes, the whole point of brainstorming is to generate ideas, but it's to generate ideas that can work.

ideas that don't work in reality are a waste of everyone's time.


Agreed. It no longer becomes brainstorming (the denotes a collective of minds working towards a goal) but fantasy.

It needs to be realistic otherwise I'd have my android masseuse by now.

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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #27 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 10:33am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:07pm:
 
Wrong. The whole point of brainstorming, and why it is so useful, is to suspend criticism in order to generate ideas.

Oh so now criticism is detrmimental to generating ideas..

oh the hypocrisy..  Grin
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #28 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:18am
 
"tell me how we will make all people toss aside religion to create the ideal society?"
Great question GSS.

The very human characteristic of wanting to understand things, gave rise to our earliest ideas of religion.
Primitive people saw things they could not understand, and created their own answers to what were, for them, unanswerable questions.

As scientific, and human knowledge grew, many of these unanswerable questions were answered, and usually were strongly resisted at the time.

That we still ponder the big spiritual questions, is always likely to remain an intrinsic, and valuable part of our makeup, what is likely to change is the need to develop fantasy constructs to try and answer these questions.
As that is the general domain of religion, to claim to have the answers to the unanswerable questions, as we continue to evolve, the validity of pretending to have answers where none exist, is likely to become more and more marginalised.

I expect we will see a growing attachment to a more philosophical approach to life, rather than a religious one.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #29 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:25am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:18am:
"tell me how we will make all people toss aside religion to create the ideal society?"
Great question GSS.

The very human characteristic of wanting to understand things, gave rise to our earliest ideas of religion.
Primitive people saw things they could not understand, and created their own answers to what were, for them, unanswerable questions.

As scientific, and human knowledge grew, many of these unanswerable questions were answered, and usually were strongly resisted at the time.

That we still ponder the big spiritual questions, is always likely to remain an intrinsic, and valuable part of our makeup, what is likely to change is the need to develop fantasy constructs to try and answer these questions.
As that is the general domain of religion, to claim to have the answers to the unanswerable questions, as we continue to evolve, the validity of pretending to have answers where none exist, is likely to become more and more marginalised.

I expect we will see a growing attachment to a more philosophical approach to life, rather than a religious one.


Notwithstanding the awareness of mortality, the greatest religious motivator of all. Even many who have abandoned religion find it hard to walk away from what they term spirituality and a sense that somehow this life is not all there is.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #30 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:38am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 25th, 2008 at 11:18am:
"tell me how we will make all people toss aside religion to create the ideal society?"
Great question GSS.


I've already answered that one at least twice.

Quote:
The very human characteristic of wanting to understand things, gave rise to our earliest ideas of religion.
Primitive people saw things they could not understand, and created their own answers to what were, for them, unanswerable questions.

As scientific, and human knowledge grew, many of these unanswerable questions were answered, and usually were strongly resisted at the time.

That we still ponder the big spiritual questions, is always likely to remain an intrinsic, and valuable part of our makeup, what is likely to change is the need to develop fantasy constructs to try and answer these questions.
As that is the general domain of religion, to claim to have the answers to the unanswerable questions, as we continue to evolve, the validity of pretending to have answers where none exist, is likely to become more and more marginalised.


Agreed.

Religion is a way for the weak to gain power and exploit society.. Always has been, always will be.

Quote:
I expect we will see a growing attachment to a more philosophical approach to life, rather than a religious one.


In any mature society this is inevitable. Though there are still those who will cling to superstition as they fear death.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #31 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 1:20pm
 
GSS wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:50am:
as much as u may hate religion, religion does provide us with a moral code, without it, we are merely applying our whims and desires. and without it, there would be widespread chaos. [/color]


Religion does not provide us with a moral code, rather the moral code is merely the by product of being social animals. It has evolved in partnership with our own mental complexities (and contradictions) to the point where it took the likes of Microsoft to rival religion as a business.

How do we get a society without religion? Education, decent education. The Pedagogy of the Oppressed, (Frier) concept should be applied to political and religious liberation. Plato belived that to Know is to be Happy.

If you are happy what need of religion. Most of the religious placebo effects can be redirected to philosophical ways of life that give meaning to our lives and our interactions with the world around us. Buddhism and Taoism don't rely on supernatural beings. ( Don't confuse this with buddhist religion : which is something the Buddha rejected)

We must not believe the many, who say that only free people ought to be educated, but we should rather believe the philosophers who say that only the educated are free.
EPICTETUS

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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #32 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 1:33pm
 
GSS wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:10pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:07pm:
a brainstorming session is kind of useless if we're not going to be realistic.

Wrong. The whole point of brainstorming, and why it is so useful, is to suspend criticism in order to generate ideas.


yes, the whole point of brainstorming is to generate ideas, but it's to generate ideas that can work.

ideas that don't work in reality are a waste of everyone's time.


Freediver is spot on here, That is exactly what brainstorming is. Remember one of the key words in his explaination is 'SUSPEND' criticism, the proceedure for criticism arrives later, when debate and culling of ideas are needed.
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Re: The Ideal Western society
Reply #33 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 4:35pm
 
Thanks Locutius. I was having trouble figuring out why I couldn't get the point across.
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