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Women in islam (Read 62822 times)
Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #60 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 1:20am
 
Just curious Abu and Malik and hypothetically, in this modern and contemporary world, should Palestine invade and defeat Israel thereby absorbing its boundaries would you acknowledge the captured Israeli citizens if they are forced into servitude? Do you consider such legal (by your definition) practice are justified and relevant in todays enlightened thinking if they are forced into slavery?
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #61 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 2:10pm
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 1:20am:
Just curious Abu and Malik and hypothetically, in this modern and contemporary world, should Palestine invade and defeat Israel thereby absorbing its boundaries would you acknowledge the captured Israeli citizens if they are forced into servitude? Do you consider such legal (by your definition) practice are justified and relevant in todays enlightened thinking if they are forced into slavery?

I think you really don't quite understand much about what we consider slavery. People aren't forced into it, they have an option to either accept it or leave the lands without their possessions or stay in the lands if they wished but without any of their possessions. It just brings into question how they would survive without any wealth?

Allow me to further explain it to you below:

If Israel doesn't accept the Arab Peace initiative, which is:
Quote:
1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

       a. Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights to the lines of June 4, 1967 as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

       b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

       c. The acceptance of the establishment of a Sovereign Independent Palestinian State on the Palestinian territories occupied since the 4th of June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza strip, with east Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

       a. Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

       b. Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.


If they refuse the Arab Peace Inititive which is just and fair on all sides and guarantees Israel peace and security and even trade deals and an Islamic State comes about, then the State should again call for the initiative to be accepted and do it's best to convince the Israeli's to accept it, if they continue to refuse than the Islamic State should fight Israel and if necessary, take the whole nation over just as Salahudeen Ayoube did against the Crusaders. In such a circumstance terms may be offered by the Israeli's which are mutually beneficial for both Arabs and Israeli's and Israeli's may be able to keep their wealth, but if no terms are met and they don't surrender then not only should Israel be wholly taken over, but the Israeli's possessions taken from them as reperations for the Islamic State having to go to war (reparations are commonplace after wars, with Germany having to pay reparations after losing WW2 and WW1, Italy after WW2 and Japan after WW2, even after the First Gulf War, 30% of the money for the oil for food program went towards reparations for the West's expenditure) and to compensate the Palestinians for more than 60 years of occupation and oppression where their lands and possessions were taken from them (just as individuals were compensated after WW2 from having to do forced labour). In such a case the Israeli's would have the option of either leaving the State and returning back to Europe where they came from. Staying in the lands, not necessarily as slaves, but it means they'd be without their possessions and wealth and if they don't accept servitude then they'll starve, at least under servitude they'd be able to rebuild their lives. If the West wanted to fund the Israeli's after they had all of their possessions taken from them that would be fine, there'd be no need for any slavery because the Israeli's wouldn't starve.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #62 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 6:32pm
 
Acid,

Quote:
Just curious Abu and Malik and hypothetically, in this modern and contemporary world, should Palestine invade and defeat Israel thereby absorbing its boundaries


A few points first need to be clarified before such a question could even be considered:

1) Palestine can't invade Israel, as Palestine is the land that Israel, a military installation of the West, is built on top of.

2) As a Muslim, I no more support an Arab state of Palestine than I would a Jewish state of Israel. Both, in my eyes, are just as wrong as one another. If the Palestinians just want another state called Palestine, then let them beg the Israeli government for citizenship.

Quote:
would you acknowledge the captured Israeli citizens if they are forced into servitude? Do you consider such legal (by your definition) practice are justified and relevant in todays enlightened thinking if they are forced into slavery?


I have no definition. The Qur'an and the Hadith decide what is permissable and prohibited for Muslims, not individual's whims and desires.
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mozzaok
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #63 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 7:51pm
 
You guys are very, very, very deluded.
That anyone can be so blinded by religious dogma, as to try and still justify slavery, in the 21st century, is indication enough of the worth of Islam, if attitudes like you display, are what it produces.

If you guys are content to justify slavery, and any form of violence, against whoever you deem to be oppressing Islam, then you only go to justify the fears of people like Sprint.
As usual, the worst examples of religious people are the ones who take it way too seriously.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #64 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 7:58pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 7:51pm:
You guys are very, very, very deluded.
That anyone can be so blinded by religious dogma, as to try and still justify slavery, in the 21st century, is indication enough of the worth of Islam, if attitudes like you display, are what it produces.

If you guys are content to justify slavery, and any form of violence, against whoever you deem to be oppressing Islam, then you only go to justify the fears of people like Sprint.
As usual, the worst examples of religious people are the ones who take it way too seriously.

Again, slaves in Islam 1400 years ago were treated far better than indigenous Australians in a secular Australian society who weren't even considered human beings, counted on the census nor given the right to vote in 1962 (1965 in QLD) so don't come and try the all high and mighty act mate, Australia is evidence that secularism is barbaric.

In Islam slaves are considered more like servants than the Western interpretation ( and application mind you) of slavery.

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Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #65 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 11:41pm
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 2:10pm:
I think you really don't quite understand much about what we consider slavery. People aren't forced into it, they have an option to either accept it or leave the lands without their possessions or stay in the lands if they wished but without any of their possessions.


Well, I think you need to confer with Abu because he just said that a slave can only be taken legally through war (ie: a war captive). How is this not forcing them into slavery?
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Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #66 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 11:51pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 6:32pm:
1) Palestine can't invade Israel, as Palestine is the land that Israel, a military installation of the West, is built on top of.



Whatever! Stop arguing the trivialities (you always do that!) You're very pedantic aren't you? That is not the point I'm making. The point of the question is a Muslim force capturing a Jewish force during contemporary times.

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 6:32pm:
2) As a Muslim, I no more support an Arab state of Palestine than I would a Jewish state of Israel. Both, in my eyes, are just as wrong as one another. If the Palestinians just want another state called Palestine, then let them beg the Israeli government for citizenship.


Then why are you arguing in defence of the Palestinians? That's what they are fighting for aren't they?

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 6:32pm:
I have no definition. The Qur'an and the Hadith decide what is permissable and prohibited for Muslims, not individual's whims and desires.


Nicely avoided, but I'll take that as a yes! You are a Muslim. Muslims take their directives from the Qur'an and the Hadith. You, yourself confirm that slaves are considered legal in Islamic law if captured during the course of war. The Palestinians are at war with the Israel.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #67 - Jul 26th, 2008 at 11:57pm
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 2:10pm:
If Israel doesn't accept the Arab Peace initiative, which is:
Quote:
1. Requests Israel to reconsider its policies and declare that a just peace is its strategic option as well.

2. Further calls upon Israel to affirm:

       a. Full Israeli withdrawal from all the territories occupied since 1967, including the Syrian Golan Heights to the lines of June 4, 1967 as well as the remaining occupied Lebanese territories in the south of Lebanon.

       b. Achievement of a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem to be agreed upon in accordance with U.N. General Assembly Resolution 194.

       c. The acceptance of the establishment of a Sovereign Independent Palestinian State on the Palestinian territories occupied since the 4th of June 1967 in the West Bank and Gaza strip, with east Jerusalem as its capital.

3. Consequently, the Arab countries affirm the following:

       a. Consider the Arab-Israeli conflict ended, and enter into a peace agreement with Israel, and provide security for all the states of the region.

       b. Establish normal relations with Israel in the context of this comprehensive peace.


If they refuse the Arab Peace Inititive which is just and fair on all sides and guarantees Israel peace and security and even trade deals and an Islamic State comes about, then the State should again call for the initiative to be accepted and do it's best to convince the Israeli's to accept it, if they continue to refuse than the Islamic State should fight Israel and if necessary, take the whole nation over just as Salahudeen Ayoube did against the Crusaders. In such a circumstance terms may be offered by the Israeli's which are mutually beneficial for both Arabs and Israeli's and Israeli's may be able to keep their wealth, but if no terms are met and they don't surrender then not only should Israel be wholly taken over, but the Israeli's possessions taken from them as reperations for the Islamic State having to go to war (reparations are commonplace after wars, with Germany having to pay reparations after losing WW2 and WW1, Italy after WW2 and Japan after WW2, even after the First Gulf War, 30% of the money for the oil for food program went towards reparations for the West's expenditure) and to compensate the Palestinians for more than 60 years of occupation and oppression where their lands and possessions were taken from them (just as individuals were compensated after WW2 from having to do forced labour). In such a case the Israeli's would have the option of either leaving the State and returning back to Europe where they came from. Staying in the lands, not necessarily as slaves, but it means they'd be without their possessions and wealth and if they don't accept servitude then they'll starve, at least under servitude they'd be able to rebuild their lives. If the West wanted to fund the Israeli's after they had all of their possessions taken from them that would be fine, there'd be no need for any slavery because the Israeli's wouldn't starve.


Nicely avoided as well, but my question is in the context of slavery (which is what we were discussing). As I've said to Abu, I'm asking whether you accept slavery during contemporary times to be legal if they were captured "legally" under Islamic law? I've only used the Palestinian/Israeli conflict as an example.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #68 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 3:33am
 
Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 26th, 2008 at 11:51pm:

Whatever! Stop arguing the trivialities (you always do that!) You're very pedantic aren't you? That is not the point I'm making. The point of the question is a Muslim force capturing a Jewish force during contemporary times.

Are you kidding? It's hardly something which is trivial, their lands were stolen from them!

I also wonder, why does it have to be a Jewish force that you mention? Do you think that for some reason we have separate rules for enslaving Jews?

In regards to enslavement. From my understanding it is something which is dependant on the situation. I gave an explanation as to how people become slaves. If the conditions I mentioned are applicable then so is slavery.

However, Islam encourages the freeing of any slave possible and that includes not taking them in the first place unless absolutely necessary. If there was some way for the force that were the aggressors against the Islamic State to be sustained by some other party after losing all of their possessions in reparations to the Islamic State for its' expenditure in going to war and in compensation to those affected by the conflict then that's fine, it wouldn't be necessary to take slaves in that case and I couldn't personally imagine a need to keep them, they'd just be more mouths to feed.

So if a third party was willing to either give the aggressors a loan or pay for them to sustain themselves to sustain themselves then it isn't necessary, the same if the aggressors were accepted into a third party's lands and taken care of there.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #69 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 10:00am
 
Acid,

Quote:
Whatever! Stop arguing the trivialities (you always do that!) You're very pedantic aren't you? That is not the point I'm making. The point of the question is a Muslim force capturing a Jewish force during contemporary times.


I've already answered, I say/believe what the Qur'an and Sunnah say. Since you're well aware of what they say regarding this issue, I really can't see the point in asking further questions.

Quote:
Then why are you arguing in defence of the Palestinians?


Why wouldn't I be arguing in defence of the Palestinians? They're Muslims, who've been occupied, oppressed and beseiged for over 60 years now, as a Muslim it's compulsory upon me to argue in defence of them.

Quote:
That's what they are fighting for aren't they?


Some are, yes. Not all. Many of them are fighting for an Islamic state (Caliphate). In fact the largest organisation working for the re-establishment of the Caliphate, Hizb ut-Tahrir, was founded in Palestine by the Palestinian scholar Taqi'ad-deen an-Nabhani.
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mozzaok
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #70 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 10:53am
 
From a saudi cleric(oh that isn't real Islam);
" Muslim Brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy neither compassion on the Jews, their blood, their money, their flesh. Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don't you enslave their women? Why don't you wage jihad? Why don't you pillage them?"

The previous thread about the perviness of Islamic men, is also brought into question again, with it's figures on slavery, and the more sexual element of it in Islamic history.
Western slavers took two to one males over females, as they were the stonger for working, Islam took two to one female over male, many as concubines, many as extra wives.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #71 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 11:23am
 
Quote:
Western slavers took two to one males over females, as they were the stonger for working


That's right, because you were looking for oxen to build your empire on their backs. And cos you considered them to be sub-human.
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mozzaok
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #72 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 11:48am
 
An ignorant belligerence to all criticisms of Islamic behaviour is counter productive Abu.
If you do not admit your mistakes, you cannot learn from them.

I would suggest you do, as many earlier twentieth century muslim scholars did, and actually re-appraise Islamic traditions re-slavery, and condemn them, and give a clear indication that you regret the incorrect actions of prior days, and work to see they are not repeated.

The idiotic belief that everything in Islam is, and always has been perfect, because it is directed by Allah, is just too silly, even for the most deluded followers of Islam, to attempt to justify.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #73 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 12:30pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 27th, 2008 at 11:23am:
Quote:
Western slavers took two to one males over females, as they were the stonger for working


That's right, because you were looking for oxen to build your empire on their backs. And cos you considered them to be sub-human.

Or maybe western slavers preferred male company instead of female company  Grin

I really think it's silly though.. Has the West made amends for it's taking of slaves Mozza? Has the West truly changed?

I think not and you wouldn't be able to prove a single iota's worth that the West has changed.
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mozzaok
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #74 - Jul 27th, 2008 at 12:59pm
 
Sprint will be loving this Malik, just sitting back and watching as you paint such a compassiopnate, and understanding, portrait of Islam.
It is a little ironic for someone complaining about his team being demonised, that your views on the west are so extreme.
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