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Women in islam (Read 92941 times)
Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #30 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:25am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 22nd, 2008 at 8:26pm:
Acid, I stated in no uncertain terms:

Quote:
The Ottoman Caliphate banned slave trading long before 1908


How is this ambigious enough that it would lead you to ask me that question?




I was giving you a chance to further explain your comment which you didn't. Yes, you are being ambiguous. You claim the wiki source is dubious without offering a more "credible" source.

This, in spite of many independent historical references stating that the slave trade went as far as 1908. FD may have quoted from wiki to which you scoffed at. However, wiki is not the only source to say this.

How long was "long before"? What are we talking about here, days, weeks, years, decades, centuries before? What are you basing your comments on. What makes the many validating references invalid?

Are you falling into the same trap as Sprint by quoting only sources (whatever they may be, because you haven't revealed them) that validates one view while ignoring other (scientific, historical and secular) opinions. This is like Sprint's "secret source" in the trench treachery thread which turned out to be a bible-bashing anti-Islam website.

Try to be more accomodating instead of dishing out one line throw away answers. You are not presenting your case well enough nor helping others to understand. To do so gives you no right to cry indignance that people don't understand your faith or culture.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #31 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:27am
 
Perhaps it was officially banned on Christmas day in 1907.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #32 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:35am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 23rd, 2008 at 11:27am:
Perhaps it was officially banned on Christmas day in 1907.


Grin Grin Grin


Or one week after Ramadan.

Wink
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #33 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 6:52pm
 
Quote:
How long was "long before"? What are we talking about here, days, weeks, years, decades, centuries before?


Capturing of new slaves (which Islam only allows in military conquest) was outlawed by Sultan Mahmoud II in the 1830's. Although isolated cases did occur by some tribes in two wars after the reform, these were isolated instances and the captives were subsequently returned.

Slaves were still owned beyond this time, and traded until the 1850's when trading in slaves was also outlawed under the reforms of Abdul Majid.

There was still the existence of slavery in Ottoman lands after these times, and the authorities probably weren't too strict about it. But it was officially banned.

Source: Islam and the Abolition of Slavery (W. G. Clarence-Smith)
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #34 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 6:53pm
 
Do many people still own slaves over there?
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Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #35 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 7:17pm
 
Ottoman restricted the slave tade in stages.

1847: slave trade banned in Persian Gulf
1857: African slave trade banned
1864: Traffic in Georgian and Circassian child slaves restricted
1867: Programme introduced to help slaves from Russia get their freedom
1887-1880: Conventions against the slave trade signed with Britain
1890: Brussels Act against slave trade signed
1908: Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and the end of slave trade
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #36 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 8:16am
 
freediver,

Quote:
Do many people still own slaves over there?


Over where? In case you haven't been keeping up with the news, the Ottoman Empire ceased to exist some years ago.

acid,

Quote:
1908: Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and the end of slave trade


I don't know where you got this little timeline from, but it's not very accurate, the Ottoman Empire certainly was not dissolved in 1908.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #37 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 12:13pm
 
But the place still exists. Some rich middle easterners were recently busted in Europe because they brought their slaves with them to a fancy hotel. That seems pretty arrogant and indicates to me that keeping slaves must still go unquestioned and be fairly common in parts of the middle east.
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Acid Monkey
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #38 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 12:39pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 25th, 2008 at 8:16am:
acid,

Quote:
1908: Dissolution of the Ottoman Empire and the end of slave trade


I don't know where you got this little timeline from, but it's not very accurate, the Ottoman Empire certainly was not dissolved in 1908.


http://www.naqshbandi.org/ottomans/decline_main.htm

http://www.experiencefestival.com/ottoman_empire_-_dissolution_19081922

http://www.experiencefestival.com/ottoman_empire_-_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

http://www.crystalinks.com/ottomanempire.html

http://historyofottoman.com/index_files/page0006.htm

http://www.discoverturkey.tv/page.php?cid=477&seo=/Dissolution+in+Ottoman+Empire+%281908%C3%83%C2%A2%C3%A2%E2%80%9A%C2%AC%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%C5%931922%29

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ottoman-Empire#Dissolution_.281908.E2.80.931922.29

http://www.umich.edu/~turkish/links/ottemp_brhist.html

http://fds.oup.com/www.oup.co.uk/pdf/0-19-928737-6.pdf




Are these sources enough for you. Perhaps I should have said that the beginning of the end began in 1908.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #39 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 2:08pm
 
freediver,

As usual, I'm not particularly interested in defending what some British-created monarchy in the Middle East has done, and as usual I can't really see the relevance to Islam.

Quote:
That seems pretty arrogant and indicates to me that keeping slaves must still go unquestioned and be fairly common in parts of the middle east.


Those monarchies are setup and backed by the West. They get all their military from the West, and they use it to not defend the people, but to maintain control of the people, and to institute things like slavery over foregin workers, something Islam STRICTLY forbids.

I know that you've got no leg to stand on in this argument, but at least argue something half plausible. Islam allowing enslavement of foreign workers (many of whom are Muslims) is just ridiculous.


Acid,

Quote:
Are these sources enough for you. Perhaps I should have said that the beginning of the end began in 1908.


The dissolution officially occured in 1923, with the proclamation of the Republic. In 1922 the Sultanate was officially abolished, but since no new form of government had been specified, the Caliphate (which is what you call the Ottoman Empire) still existed

You can attempt to claim 1908 is when the "beginning of the end" occured etc. others would use even earlier dates. The fact is the empire still existed and certainly had not been dissolved, in fact it still entered a war after this time, certainly not something a dissolved empire could accomplish. Dissolution is the point at which it ceases to exist, not when decline has reached beyond an unrecoverable state, which is what 1908 could be seen as..  So just admit it was a technicality the site you quoted from missed, and continue with your point.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #40 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 2:26pm
 
As usual, I'm not particularly interested in defending what some British-created monarchy in the Middle East has done, and as usual I can't really see the relevance to Islam.

So the fact that they are merely carrying on a tradition which was the foundation of the Ottoman empire and is even today considered by some to be ordained by the Koran is irrelevant? You use some really convoluted logic to blame every problem in the middle east on the west. In fact it was pressure from Britain that contributed to the decline of slavery.

something Islam STRICTLY forbids

Crap. It was only fairly recently that Muslims decided Islam is opposed to slavery and not all Muslims have even progressed that far. I think even Malik believes that slavery is OK in Islam.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #41 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 3:37pm
 
Quote:
So the fact that they are merely carrying on a tradition which was the foundation of the Ottoman empire


First you'd need to prove the supposed continuity between the Ottoman Empire, and the British-created Monarchy, to establish this was a state sponsored practice just merely merged into a cultural practise of the people once that state ceased to exercise authority over the region.

Quote:
and is even today considered by some to be ordained by the Koran is irrelevant?


The Qur'an does not ordain the enslavement of foreign workers, and I challenge you to bring any evidence of any Muslim authority claiming this.

Quote:
You use some really convoluted logic to blame every problem in the middle east on the west.


The British created the Emirates, if you dispute this, go take a history lesson.

Quote:
Crap. It was only fairly recently that Muslims decided Islam is opposed to slavery and not all Muslims have even progressed that far. I think even Malik believes that slavery is OK in Islam.


This statement is absolutely useless, as nowhere did I state Islam completely forbids the possessing of captives, on the contrary Ive iterated many times that Islam permits it, but you've so fr failed to grasp this fact.

You keep throwing up pathetic arguments that are completely removed from the reality, and they are continually being shot down.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #42 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 3:49pm
 
to establish this was a state sponsored practice

Why would I want to establish that it is a state sponsored practice? I'm trying to do the opposite, if anything. The state aspect is only relevant to the Ottoman empire part because it was an Islamic Caliphate and because Islam is a system of government.

The Qur'an does not ordain the enslavement of foreign workers

Of course not, they would be slaves, not 'workers' and they would have to catch them some other way. I'm not sure why it makes any difference how they end up as slaves, which I think is what you are getting at. You seem to be missing the pont. Islam allows slavery. The fact that the example in the media involves slaves that were obtained in a slightly different manner to the ordained way is kind of beside the point. the problem is slavery, not the correct way to enslave people.

The British created the Emirates, if you dispute this, go take a history lesson.

We are not discussing the emirates. We are discussing slavery. The fact that the British created the Emirates does not resolve the local people of responsibility for their own actions. I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this, but you cannot blame the west for every problem in the middle east. The west did not bring slavery to the middle east. They tried to get rid of it, but it appears they awere not 100% successful.
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« Last Edit: Jul 25th, 2008 at 3:55pm by freediver »  

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Re: Women in islam
Reply #43 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 4:39pm
 
I think we define slavery differently FD.

How about you tell me what you consider a slave? what are their rights? are they considered human? How can one treat them? etc.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #44 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 4:51pm
 
If they don't have the right to simply walk away from the job, they are slaves.
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