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Women in islam (Read 92953 times)
Malik Shakur
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #15 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:14pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
Muslim Quranic (bible) verse 4:34 instructs Muslim men to "admonish" and "beat" their wives if they become "rebellious" and that "men are the managers of the affairs of women because Allah has preferred men over women and women were expended of their Rights."

Not the managers of affairs of women at all, the protectors and maintainers in fact. We are obligated to protect them and provide for them.

You also know Islam's stance regarding the 'beating' issue. So obviously your only trying to incite hate

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
In an Islamic court of law, it takes the testimony of two women to override the testimony of one man. Justification for this legal tradition is found in Quran 2:282.

Not quite, this is regarding business transactions. Not regarding criminal trials. Christianity and Judaism however don't even let women be witnesses.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
Muslim women are not allowed equal right to their inheritance (Quran 4:11-12) because they are only worth half of a man's share. In most Islamic countries, women are not allowed to vote and are certainly not allowed to be elected to public office.

Women can be elected into public office and it's not forbidden at all, and they can vote too. Unlike in Christianity and Judaism they had no such luxury.

Islam gives women 50% of the share of inheritance because she has no financial outlays whatsoever, it's the man who looks after his parents, wife and provides for them all. His money is his wifes, and his wifes is only hers. He can't touch it.

Compare that with Christianity and Judaism where women can't inherit anything unless there are NO sons whatsoever. If there are sons then girls get nothing.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
According to Islam, most women are inherently evil and their ultimate destiny is Hell fire. Muhammad explained about one of his visions, ". . . I stood at the gate of the Fire [Hell] and saw that the majority of those who entered it were women."
When a women asked Muhammad why there were more women in Hell than men, he replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you."

No, according to Christianity and Judaism women are considered inherently evil because of the Adam and Eve story. Islam doesn't hold this to be the case and doesn't cast judgement on people who haven't been proven to commit a crime. Unlike Christinity and Judaism.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
When the woman asked what was deficient in a woman's intelligence and religion, Muhammad answered, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man? This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses? This is the deficiency in her religion."

Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of this, it is not referring to a dificiency in the quality of religion and her belief, but a dificiency in the quantity and prayers a woman can do etc.

Unlike Christianity and Judaism we don't judge women based on the actions of women previous.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
Because Muhammad said, "marry such women as seem good to you, two, three, four; but if you fear you will not be equitable, then only one, or what your right hands own; so it is likelier you will not be partial," polygamy is legal in Islam. A man may marry "four Permanent" and as many "Provisional" or temporary wives as he desires.

Hmm, The messengers of the Old Testament who were messengers of God had multiple wives, in fact I think most of them did. If you condemn Muslims for this you condemn those messengers and even Jesus because according to you he is the God of the Old testament.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
Because Muhammad said, "your women are a tillage for you; so come unto your tillage as you wish," Islam assumes not only that women are worth less than men, but that they are property who must unquestionable meet all her husband's sexual desires. If she refuses, he has the legal right under Islamic law to deny her food, shelter, and all of life's necessities.

LOL, not quite true.

Yes, our wives belong to us, as we belong to our wives. The level of ownership relates to ones rights over each other. My wife has rights over me as I have rights over her, those rights no other woman has over me (unless I am married to her) and no other man has those rights over my wife, thus there is a form of possession. But certainly not objectification.

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Malik Shakur
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #16 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:14pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
A Muslim woman does not have the right to choose who she wants to marry. She is not permitted to divorce her husband unless she can prove he is impotent or that he does not have sex with her "at least one night in every forty nights" and if he has not provided her with a minimum standard of living. In both cases, the woman would need another witness, because Muhammad said a women's testimony counts only "half of a man's."

Not true at all. In fact your a complete liar because you know that's forbidden in Islam. Islam forbids forced marriages and no woman can be married off to a man without her permission.
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
If a Muslim women protests any of her treatment, she is reminded that "her husband can divorce her simply by repeating "I divorce you" three times and that her prayers and devotions will not be accepted by God and curses of heaven and earth will fall upon her" if she continues to rebel.

Not true at all. A husband cannot divorce a woman after simply saying I divorce you three times. That's a big misconception even amongst Arabs.

Divorce can be pronounced once and when this happens the woman goes into a waiting period of 3 months, if during this time they reconcile then their marriage can continue. However the 3 divorces is actually a protection for the women to teach men how serious saying 'i divorce you' is, because if he does it three times during their marriage, then their divorce will be final and he cannot marry her again. It is to teach men how serious it is to even pronounce such a thing.
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Malik Shakur
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #17 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:18pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 10:57pm:
malik - it is done to 100% of the women in muslim countries.
It is mass female vulva multilation.

Unless they are all so dirty and infected they all medically need it.

I feel sorry for your poor wife if you actually believe that the clitoral hood is the only element of a womans vulva. Obviously you don't know anything about a women's anatomy. The vulva is part of the outside of a womans genitals but the clitoral hood itself being removed will not effect the woman harmfully. The clitoral hood is not the only part of a woman's vulva Sprint. The clitoral hood can be pierced, removed or reduced and that isn't considered FGM. In fact it's some women in the West and the East get their clitoral hood pierced. Many others get their clitoral hood removed or reduced so that it's more hygenic and so that sex is better for them.

Islam forbids FGM
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #18 - Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:21pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:01pm:
we are in the year 2008, not 1008


"AT least eight women and one man have been sentenced to be stoned to death in Iran and may be executed at any time, the lawyers defending several of those sentenced said today.

The eight women, ranging in age from 27 to 43, had convictions including prostitution, incest and adultery.

The man, a 50-year-old music teacher, was convicted of illegal sex with a student.

The last officially reported stoning in the Islamic Republic was carried out on a man a year ago which drew criticism from rights groups, the European Union and a top U.N. official.

Iran's judiciary chief Ayatollah Mohmoud Hashemi-Shahroudi ordered a moratorium on stoning in 2002.

"Our specific and clear demand is to have the stoning sentence stopped by Ayatollah Shahroudi since the defendants are liable to be stoned at any moment," defence lawyer Mariam Kian-Arsi said.

Judiciary officials were not immediately available for comment.

But the Iranian authorities routinely dismiss charges of rights abuses, saying they are acting on Islamic sharia law.

The lawyers issued a list of those facing stoning, saying it numbered at least nine people and urged parliament to remove stoning and other corporal punishments from law books.

"We are trying to have such punishments removed and replaced by different ones so that it would be compatible with the dignity of humanity," lawyer Mohammad Mostafaie said.

According to Iran's Islamic penal code, men convicted of adultery should be buried up to their waists and women up to their chests for stoning.

Stones used should not be large enough to kill the person immediately.

Shadi Sadr, another defence lawyer, called on the international community and rights groups to back their efforts.

"We are in close touch with human rights organisations and many of them have supported our campaign," Sadr said.

Amnesty International earlier this year called on Iran to immediately abolish "this grotesque punishment" and said many of those awaiting execution by stoning were sentenced after grossly unfair trials.

Iran responds to Western criticism of its rights record by pointing to what it says are abuses in the West, such as detainees held by the United States in Guantanamo Bay. "

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24048793-12335,00.html

I never said Iran is an Islamic state, however if these women are guilty of their crimes of adultery, incest and prostitution and it could be proven with eye witness accounts then they certainly are liable for death by stoning as a punishment. Islam forbids these behaviours and I'm not going to apologize for that. I will mention however, as you are VERY well aware, that men are also liable for sucha a punishment if found to be committing the same crimes.

Stop trying to make it look like women only have these punishments.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #19 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 12:13pm
 
From the Iran thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215611509/42#42

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:44am:
Quote:
It was only relatively recently that the middle east stopped selling their women as slaves


Are we talking about the middle east, as in the real physical tangible location on planet earth? Or the fictional setting in the writings of the famous orientalists?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_(Ottoman_Empire)

Quote:
Slavery was an important part of Ottoman society.[1] As late as 1908, women slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.[2] In Istanbul, about one-fifth of the population consisted of slaves.[3]


I would hardly call that better treatment of women than today. Maybe I am underestimating just how badly women are treated in the middle east right now.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #20 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 8:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 12:13pm:
From the Iran thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215611509/42#42

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 20th, 2008 at 11:44am:
Quote:
It was only relatively recently that the middle east stopped selling their women as slaves


Are we talking about the middle east, as in the real physical tangible location on planet earth? Or the fictional setting in the writings of the famous orientalists?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_(Ottoman_Empire)

Quote:
Slavery was an important part of Ottoman society.[1] As late as 1908, women slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.[2] In Istanbul, about one-fifth of the population consisted of slaves.[3]


I would hardly call that better treatment of women than today. Maybe I am underestimating just how badly women are treated in the middle east right now.

I have mentioned previously that the Ottoman empire was not perfect and in particular towards the end became quite corrupted. That I won't deny at all. However let's take a look at how some women are treated in Western Countries today shall we?

Quote:
http://www.channel4.com/news/2003/02/week_2/11_slavery.html
Slavery in Europe 
Human Traffic 

Published: 11-Feb-2003
By: Gaby Rado   

Channel 4 News uncovers the modern day slave trade taking place across Eastern Europe. Our correspondent talks to the women in Romania who were literally sold into slavery. 

Diana isn't sure of her surname - and she can't read or write. She probably has a mental age of about ten, but not long ago, she even wanted a baby's dummy. She's now safe in a women's refuge in Romania.

But just a few weeks ago, she was a slave. We filmed her standing next to a man who was about to sell her – she was asking him if her buyer would beat her. He said her new owner will feed her and give her warm clothes. Minutes later, four hundred dollars is paid for her.

She told Channel 4 News: "I was prostituted by force. I was beaten with a chain, I was kept undressed, naked in the cold, outside in the cold, and chained in a dog's cage, a large one.

"And after they gave me food, they kept me eight weeks without eating, then I was taken away by men, raped."

This is Bucharest, Romania, but it could probably be anywhere on the poorer fringes of the former Soviet empire - Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus.

With freedom from communism came the domination of money. And with that, young women with no money became pieces of merchandise.

We decided to test how easy it would be to buy a slave - for anyone, at any time. We drove into a run down part of the city, and in less than half an hour, had found someone who said it could possibly be arranged.

We were taken round the corner and shown a girl. She's obscured by one of the men.

The woman walked back into the courtyard.

If we had proceeded, it may have gone something like this. An undercover team went to the house of a man calling himself "Shorty".

A young woman appeared, and underwent the most degrading kind of exhibition. The team claimed they would come back with money and left.

Two weeks later, they contacted Shorty again, and he said the blond woman had already been sold.

Outside, Diana clearly showed her relief at having a new owner. The pay-off for Shorty took place at a nearby park - there's little doubt he was to take a cut as the middle-man. Finally the four hundred dollars in local currency is counted out.

Diana is then taken to a women's refuge and the full horror of her story emerges and shows the burn marks on her shoulder, thought to have been made by red-hot chains.

She said she had been their slave since she ran away from home in the city of Timisoara at the age of ten after her father had raped her.

She's then told she was nobody's property and would have food and a bed to sleep in.

Diana, who's in the refuge with eight other former enslaved women, has changed in appearance.

Her weight has increased because of "street kid sydrome" the impulse to overeat, caused by former starvation. This is the only refuge of its kind in Romania, where ten thousand women are thought to be trafficked every year.

Her story may well be typical.

Diana: "I was prostituted by force, I was beaten with a chain, I was kept undressed,naked in the cold, outside in the cold, and chained in a dog's cage.

"It was a large one and after they gave me food, they kept me 8 weeks practically without eating, then I was taken away by men, raped, I was forced to do all types of sex."

The founder of the refuge says the final amount paid for Diana was actually too high. Had the buyers not posed as foreigners it would have been around $100, we were told.

During our filming, by chance, we spotted Shorty the trafficker on the streets, openly talking to policemen. The Romanian authorities say whatever measures they take, corruption does take place.

After her unimaginable past, Diana hopes she has a future. She wants to learn to be a cook, and maybe have a family.

But for the unknown, un-named young blond woman, she and thousands like her have disappeared into the night, sold at least once, but more likely several times more.

Trafficking in women is a growing trade and while poverty and profit-making exist side-by side, it will continue.


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Re: Women in islam
Reply #21 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 9:25pm
 
what does it say in the koran about women ??

A woman is worth 1/2 a man ?
amongst other nicieties such as the assaination of a mother means as much to mohammad as 2 goats butting heads ??

mohammads bonking of a 9 year old girl.

who would follow that sicko ?
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #22 - Jul 21st, 2008 at 9:36pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 21st, 2008 at 9:25pm:
what does it say in the koran about women ??

A woman is worth 1/2 a man ?
amongst other nicieties such as the assaination of a mother means as much to mohammad as 2 goats butting heads ??

mohammads bonking of a 9 year old girl.

who would follow that sicko ?

Where is your evidence that says a woman is worth half a man in the Quran?

You forget, in your own religion that Jesus christ is the God of the old testament who ordered the following punishment:

Hosea 13:16
Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.


You also forget that Mary, was married to Joseph when she was 12-14 and already pregnant and Joseph was 90 years old and after Jesus was born they had more children and God allowed a 90 year old man to have sex with a little 12-14 year old.

So this all was allowed by God so according to your own logic you are saying that God is a sicko..

How hypocritical..

I smell an olive grove burning Sprint.. You can't help yourself can't you? Your so filled with hate that you actually can't help yourself.

I could expect nothing less from a fanatical Christian bible thumping extremist
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #23 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 11:52am
 
I have mentioned previously that the Ottoman empire was not perfect and in particular towards the end became quite corrupted.

In the end? Didn't they have slaves all the way through?

However let's take a look at how some women are treated in Western Countries today shall we?

What exactly do you hope to prove with this? It's a pretty juvenile line of argument, don't you agree?
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #24 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 4:32pm
 
Quote:
Slavery was an important part of Ottoman society.[1] As late as 1908, women slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.[2] In Istanbul, about one-fifth of the population consisted of slaves.[3]


Just because wikipedia says it's so, doesn't make it so.

The Ottoman Caliphate banned slave trading long before 1908, so I think that source would have ot be considered dubious.

Also did you notice the European painting in that wiki article? The one of an "Arabian slave market", that had several robed Arab men standing around a naked slave woman? That about says it all regarding the European knowledge of slavery in Muslim lands. It's all based on orientalist fantasies and delusions of harems.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #25 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 4:34pm
 
Just because wikipedia says it's so, doesn't make it so.

It doesn't make it wrong either. The article references other sources.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #26 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 4:46pm
 
Abu, I'm not sure what your point of discussion is. Are you saying that the slave trade didn't happen during the Ottoman Empire because it was referenced in Wikipedia? Or that the slave trade weren't abolished in 1908?
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #27 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 8:26pm
 
Acid, I stated in no uncertain terms:

Quote:
The Ottoman Caliphate banned slave trading long before 1908


How is this ambigious enough that it would lead you to ask me that question?

freediver,

Quote:
It doesn't make it wrong either. The article references other sources.


Yeh it references a BBC article about a documentary they made, which itself has no reference for the claim. It's a known fact the Ottoman government abolished slave trading long before this, so such a comment is really irrelevant.

Quote:
As late as 1908, women slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire


This is about as clear as saying "As late as 2008 women slaves were still being sold in Eastern Europe". However they used the word Ottoman as if to imply the Ottoman Government approved of such an activity at that point in time. When it clearly didn't, as it had banned the practise.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #28 - Jul 22nd, 2008 at 8:47pm
 

Yes, and Islam has banned FGM.
I am making a run for pope.
Women who say No, really mean Yes.

Any more blinding truths you care to dazzle us with?

I guess anyone who relys on desert dogma to define his reality, should be expected to have trouble discerning fact from fiction.

Funnily enough your, silly putty of a, religion seems to have no qualms about saying one thing, but doing nothing about it's followers, doing the exact opposite.

It goes back to the question I posed a while ago.

Who's in charge?

Any nutjob who claims to have read and understood the koran, can start pontificating on what "real" muslims should do.
Unfortunately for the average muslim, and the rest of us, there are thousands of these nutjobs, and they could not agree if it was night or day.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #29 - Jul 23rd, 2008 at 10:52am
 
It's a known fact the Ottoman government abolished slave trading long before this

When?

Unfortunately for the average muslim, and the rest of us, there are thousands of these nutjobs, and they could not agree if it was night or day.

No Mozz, it's American interference that is causing the problems..... If it wasn't for that, the nutjobs would have reached an agreement by now.
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