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Women in islam (Read 66333 times)
freediver
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #150 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 12:04pm
 
"If you don't want to ask, why did you ask?" He didn't ask you doofus. And thats just it.

Yes he did Lestat.

I did? I don't think so. Islam is clearly against homosexuality.

But you also argued that it effectively allows it by making a conviction almost impossible unless they do it in the street or something.

Islam was a leading force in the decline of slavery throughout most of it's history.

As far as I can tell the historical facts indicate the opposite. It was the British who were the driving force behind it. The middle east was one of the last places to abolish slavery, and this can be at least in part attributed to western interference.

It's what we are discussing now. Concubinage. Or did you mean something other than that?

OK. Concubines if you prefer. Under what situations does/has Islam permit concubines. Is a concubine regarded as additional or separate to a wife?

It is, because it doesn't exist, and hasn't for a long time. Yes as Muslims we should be living under it, but we're not. I most likely won't in my lifetime, so what is the benefit in discussing what it hypothetically would and wouldn't allow?

Because it is something that a large number of people are pushing for. We should not wait until they achieve it to consider it. It is a threat to democracy, freedom and human rights. It seems that every time I discuss I discover something new about it that concerns me.

The fact that you are arguing that it shouldn't be discussed just adds to that concern.

Immoral is a subjective term.

Well, you talk about the decline of slavery like it is a good thing.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #151 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 12:21pm
 
re: discussing this earlier, I put some stuff in the wiki about polygamy and slavery, but it seems I was unaware that Muslims could have sex with female slaves.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #152 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 12:39pm
 

Jordan,

Quote:
Do you actually believe that, or could you just not be bothered answering the question?


Can't get much past the keen eye of Jordan. You're right it is the latter.

freediver,

Quote:
But you also argued that it effectively allows it


I did no such thing.

Quote:
As far as I can tell the historical facts indicate the opposite. It was the British who were the driving force behind it.


Like with most issues, your memory only goes back about 5 minutes.

When Islam was revealed, slavery almost overnight became virtually outlawed. Prior to Islam, slavery was rampant, and pretty much anyone could just capture and slave another, so long as he had the ability to do so. Islam changed this, and prevented it in all cases, except captives during war, who were considered to have forfeited their freedom by waging war against the Islamic State.

Islam also put extremely stringent rules on servitude, that meant you must clothe, feed and house any servants (I am using this word, because the English word slave just doesn't mean the same as what we're talking about here) in the same manner anyone else in your household was to be looked after. In the West, yes even just a few centuries or less ago, they were considered animals, and usually slept in the barn with the other animals. Except for the favourite slave, the "porch n1gger" who was allowed to sleep on the porch with the dog.

Also we have the two independant cases of 'servant kingdoms' arising in the Muslim lands. The Mamelukes of Egypt and the Mamelukes of India (mamlook means possessed). In which servants as an entire class of people rose to such a high rank in society they became the Sultans, not just once, but twice, independantly.

As stated, it was mostly in later years, the last 500, that slavery became very widespread in the Muslim lands, with the rise of the Barbary states, and their situation is a special case, due to to the extreme persecution and genocide they suffered.

Also with the Mongol/Tatar invasions slavery was made quite big in Muslim lands, by the invaders. Prior to it, slavery was very rare.

Quote:
Because it is something that a large number of people are pushing for. We should not wait until they achieve it to consider it. It is a threat to democracy, freedom and human rights. It seems that every time I discuss I discover something new about it that concerns me.


As I asked, can you guarantee Democracy and Christianity won't re-institute it in future? After all, it's clearly written in the Bible...

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The fact that you are arguing that it shouldn't be discussed just adds to that concern.


You are free to discuss it, just don't think it's as relevant as you make out.

Quote:
Well, you talk about the decline of slavery like it is a good thing.


Yes, it is a good thing. And Islam views it as a good thing too. Don't forget to add that to your wiki... or is it in only the 'juicey' bits that make the cut?
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #153 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 12:44pm
 
Quote:
Do you actually believe that, or could you just not be bothered answering the question?

Can't get much past the keen eye of Jordan. You're right it is the latter.

Glad you can be honest about your laziness, that's a start.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #154 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 1:09pm
 
Quote:
As I asked, can you guarantee Democracy and Christianity won't re-institute it in future? After all, it's clearly written in the Bible...


If some group of people started suggesting that medievil Europe was an ideal society and we should return to that, I would be equally concerned.

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You are free to discuss it, just don't think it's as relevant as you make out.


How relevant do I make it out to be?

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Yes, it is a good thing. And Islam views it as a good thing too.


Why not just abolish it then? Perhaps the issue goes a bit deeper, as it appears 'necessary' under Islam because Islam permits the taking of everything following a victory in war. That is the bigger problem, and slavery is just aprt of it.

Quote:
Don't forget to add that to your wiki... or is it in only the 'juicey' bits that make the cut?


It's the conflicts between Islam and western values that make it into the section about the conflicts between Islam and western values. If you want to add a page about Islamic recipes, go for it.

Quote:
It's what we are discussing now. Concubinage. Or did you mean something other than that?


OK. Concubines if you prefer. Under what situations does/did Islam permit concubines? Is a concubine regarded as additional or separate to a wife?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #155 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 1:19pm
 

Quote:
If some group of people started suggesting that medievil Europe was an ideal society and we should return to that, I would be equally concerned.


Well Muslims don't call to live by the way things were 1400 years ago, but by the principles of the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), we don't believe in travelling by Camels instead of cars.. even though camels were mentioned in the Qur'an, it's not compulsory to use them, as it's not compulsory to take captives during war.

Quote:
How relevant do I make it out to be?


You seem to think it's a very present danger that Muslims might be doing this...

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Why not just abolish it then? Perhaps the issue goes a bit deeper, as it appears 'necessary' under Islam because Islam permits the taking of everything following a victory in war.


And the West are just in Iraq to help improve the people's lives right?

As Lawrence Korb, former US Assistant Secretary of Defence, said in January 1991:

"If Kuwait grew carrots, we wouldn't give a damn."

Or US Congressman Stokes (Ohio), 12th January 1991:

"I venture to say that if Kuwait produced bananas, instead of oil, we would not have 400,000 American troops there today."

'Spoils of war' is by no means a purely Islamic concept, it's most likely been in part a motivation for most of the major conflicts mankind has ever engaged in. To suggest otherwise would be utter naivety or outright deception

Quote:
OK. Concubines if you prefer. Under what situations does/did Islam permit concubines? Is a concubine regarded as additional or separate to a wife?


As mentioned it's a moot point. Go fish for your wiki elsewhere.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #156 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 1:23pm
 
Quote:
You seem to think it's a very present danger that Muslims might be doing this...


You mean, keeping women as slaves, like what was reported in the media recently?

Quote:
And the West are just in Iraq to help improve the people's lives right?


We aren't going to move in, if that's what you are worried about.

Quote:
As mentioned it's a moot point. Go fish for your wiki elsewhere.


So, I finally get the question in a form you approve of, and you refuse to answer it? On the grounds that revealing the truth about Islam may paint Islam in a bad light? Surely if it is God's law, you should proclaim it to be so, and we will see the Godliness of the law and live by it.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #157 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:33pm
 
Gaybriel wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:11pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 20th, 2008 at 10:01pm:
Quote:
Did he have sex with them?


Even if he did, so did Biblical prophets... so what?


well isn't this against the ruling that there should be no sexual contact outside of marriage?


i don't think this was answered
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #158 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:35pm
 
[quote author=Lestat33 link=1216537027/135#149 date=1224554390
Take Gaybriel for example...I believe that she is Christian, however, unlike you, it appears she is comfortable with her beliefs, hence, she does not attempt to put down others.

You on the other hand.....INFERIORITY COMPLEX! [/quote]

actually I don't really belong to an religion Tongue

I believe in god but don't belong to an organised religion. Perhaps one day I will- who knows Tongue
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #159 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:03pm
 

Gaybriel, most verses referring to legal sexual conduct mention "your wives, and those whom your right hand possesses"
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #160 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:18pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:03pm:
Gaybriel, most verses referring to legal sexual conduct mention "your wives, and those whom your right hand possesses"


can you explain what that means a bit more please?

I dunno why please sounds rude at the end of that sentence- but for some reason it does- lol Tongue
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #161 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 6:56am
 

It means concubines, as mentioned above.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #162 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 8:13am
 

Quote:
legal sexual conduct mention "your wives, and those whom your right hand possesses"


makes me think of the pirates law.
"Take all you can, give back nothing."


images of assassainations, treatment of infidels etc etc etc.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #163 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 8:30am
 

Concubinage is in your own Bible too, and is practised by the Prophets (pbut) who you claim Jesus (pbuh) sent to the world and spoke through...

Does the Bible, and the Prophets (pbut) that Jesus (pbuh) sent make you think of those things too? Or only Islam?
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #164 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 9:17am
 

I ask for the mod. to delete his own posting.
repeatedly being offtopic DESPITE being repeatedly requested to stay ONtopic.

What is he scared off ? the truth ?
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