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Women in islam (Read 66334 times)
Soren
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #135 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:10am
 
So, to sum up the answers so far:


1. Yes, there will be sex slaves under sharia in the caliphate for Mohammedans but not for unbelievers.

2. At what point in the implementation process will it become OK to have sex slaves? (ie how much of a priority is it in the scheme of the sharia legal framework).  - answer still under consideration

3. A captured non-muslim woman can become a sex slave under sharia in the caliphate.

4. If not - N/A

5. Are there any other instances where Mohammed's example will not be followed? Yes, details are under consideration.



Would that be a fair summation so far?


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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #136 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:40am
 

Quote:
1. Yes, there will be sex slaves under sharia in the caliphate for Mohammedans but not for unbelievers.


There's no Caliphate and no Shari'ah, so it's a moot point. In the end of the Ottoman Caliphate, there was severe restriction on slavery, and Islamically, it's discouraged to have slaves. So perhaps in any future implementation of a Caliphate, it may not even be an issue. Since the world has officially abolished it, although we know it still goes on, especially in Russia, Eastern Europe and the Gulf states.

Quote:
2. At what point in the implementation process will it become OK to have sex slaves? (ie how much of a priority is it in the scheme of the sharia legal framework).  - answer still under consideration


It is not a priority at all, neither is it a command in Islam to do so, contrary to some claims so far in this thread.

Quote:
3. A captured non-muslim woman can become a sex slave under sharia in the caliphate.


Did. That's about all you can say. Then again all nations took captives in wars as slaves in that time. Why would Islam be any different?
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #137 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:42am
 
Quote:
Why would Islam be any different?

Because you claim it's superior to all other belief systems, that it is the only truth and that it is the only moral way to live. If it does as all others do, why is it so special?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #138 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:47am
 

Yes but it's still just a way for people to live their lives, and it exists in a real world, not in a fantasy land. Islamic rules are realistic.
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mozzaok
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #139 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:52am
 
While few christians consider the bible as a total blueprint for how to live, we have seen the perception, at least, that muslims think very differently about the koran, and allowed the freedom to, would pursue anything that the koran permits.

That is why the anti-islamist sites quote so many iffy koranic verses, because they fear that muslims will interpret them literally, if given the chance, and demand that all respect their right to do so on religious grounds, even if the verses seem cruel and/or perverse.

It is a little like the christian, god moves in mysterious ways bit, where muslims say the koran can only be rightly understood in arabic, and only certain people can therefore truly and rightly interpret it, it allows a ready made excuse for any situation that is indefensible, or inexplicable, and exemplifies why the non-religious so often hold religion in contempt, for it's evasion and lack of accountability.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #140 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:40am
 

Quote:
because they fear that muslims will interpret them literally, if given the chance, and demand that all respect their right to do so on religious grounds, even if the verses seem cruel and/or perverse.


We do interpret them literally, we don't consider them just fairytales. But that's got nothing to do with demanding anything. You seem quite hung up on this demanding thing, Muslims demanding this and Muslims demanding that. Sorry, but I've never demanded anything, and doubt I ever would,, unless it was something like my basic right to live. Muslims having halal food etc. is usually done by food companies for their own PROFIT, not for our prophet (pun intended). They accomodate us because it makes good business sense, then bigots like you jump up and down and cry "Why should they have something special???" it's called supply and demand... hmm the word demand has a different meaning there though.

That's the way democratic and capitalist societies work, if you don't like it, I suggest you work out what kind of system you do like, and go find where it exists. This is called the hypocrisy of democracy, it's all good and well whilst it serves your needs, but heaven forbid that it ever serve the needs of Muslims. In that we have to suspend democracy, freedom, capitalism etc. and use emergency laws to put those Muslims back in their place!!

Likewise as I mentioned to you before mozza, probably the only way polygamy will be made legal is when the government decides it's profitable enough, and the ATO demands it, not us demanding it. Muslims do not go around demanding everyone accomodate them, and I challenge you to show where we have.

Quote:
where muslims say the koran can only be rightly understood in arabic


Would you accept the Australian government interpreting the Australian constitution in swahili? Probably not, and why should they? It exists in it's language, in which all the terms and concepts are clear, so why translate it to interpret it?

There's plenty of Western scholars who are also fluent Arabic speakers... So don't feel like it's just a way to remove it from the West's prying eyes.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #141 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:51am
 
This is like the argument that Islam is homophobic yet allowed homosexuality in the same time.

Isn't that what you argued Abu?

Not particularly. But if I do, yes I know where to come. Thanks.

If you don't want to ask, why did you ask?

I think we've been over this before haven't we? In this time, no.

So they can only take sex slaves as war booty in times of war, but not in times of peace? I must have forgotten going over this one.

Yes.

Can you list the examples for us?

However, if, as I suspect you just misworded your question a little, and would like to try again, perhaps we can find an answer for what you might actually have intended to ask.

I don't think I misworded the question. Anyway, feel free to reword it in a way that is acceptable to you so that you may answer it.

There's no Caliphate and no Shari'ah, so it's a moot point.

Haven't we been over this before? The fact that sharia law is not implimented does not mean that questions about what sharia law are moot. Or do you suggest people not bother themselves with finding out what it is until they find themselves living under it?

Yes but it's still just a way for people to live their lives, and it exists in a real world, not in a fantasy land. Islamic rules are realistic.

So because immoral behaviour is inevitable Islam allows it in order to be 'realistic'?
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #142 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:21am
 
jordan484 wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:42am:
Quote:
Why would Islam be any different?

Because you claim it's superior to all other belief systems, that it is the only truth and that it is the only moral way to live. If it does as all others do, why is it so special?


Don't you believe that your 'western' beliefs are superior to Islam. You have said so a number of times.

So here you are...attacking Abu and Islam for the very same thing that you have done yourself.

Serious question...do you have a mirror at home?
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Soren
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #143 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:27am
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:21am:
jordan484 wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:42am:
Quote:
Why would Islam be any different?

Because you claim it's superior to all other belief systems, that it is the only truth and that it is the only moral way to live. If it does as all others do, why is it so special?


Don't you believe that your 'western' beliefs are superior to Islam. You have said so a number of times.

Yes. One pertinent reason is that there is no sex slavery in western law.

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Re: Women in islam
Reply #144 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:28am
 
freediver wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 10:51am:
This is like the argument that Islam is homophobic yet allowed homosexuality in the same time.

Isn't that what you argued Abu?

Not particularly. But if I do, yes I know where to come. Thanks.

If you don't want to ask, why did you ask?

I think we've been over this before haven't we? In this time, no.

So they can only take sex slaves as war booty in times of war, but not in times of peace? I must have forgotten going over this one.

Yes.

Can you list the examples for us?

However, if, as I suspect you just misworded your question a little, and would like to try again, perhaps we can find an answer for what you might actually have intended to ask.

I don't think I misworded the question. Anyway, feel free to reword it in a way that is acceptable to you so that you may answer it.

There's no Caliphate and no Shari'ah, so it's a moot point.

Haven't we been over this before? The fact that sharia law is not implimented does not mean that questions about what sharia law are moot. Or do you suggest people not bother themselves with finding out what it is until they find themselves living under it?

Yes but it's still just a way for people to live their lives, and it exists in a real world, not in a fantasy land. Islamic rules are realistic.

So because immoral behaviour is inevitable Islam allows it in order to be 'realistic'?


lol...FD, seriously it is ridiculous posts like this which has caused me to cease taking you seriously long ago...and fair dinkum, Abu should do like wise. Like really, I sometime's wonder whether you are just pretending to be this thick, or your somehow think your funny or something. Either way...really, posts like these tell me that you have the maturity/intellect of a child.

This is especially highlighted by this ridiculous question..

"If you don't want to ask, why did you ask?" He didn't ask you doofus. And thats just it...if/when Abu highlights this, and challenges you to show where 'he asked'...you just move the goal post and carry on. Time and time again, he exposes you and others, and without shame, you just carry one, and a couple of days later...make the same claims, which have already been refuted and exposed, a number of times. Just a cycle of lies/refutations/exposure, and then the same lies again. Its a rather boring pattern to be honest.

You lot remind of animals....absolutely no shame and no idea of how to debate a topic. Time and time again your lies are exposed, and time and time again you just ignore this and continue with your ignorant rants.

I am amazed that Abu has put up with it as long as he has. Though I suspect that this is the idea...silence him with your ignorance and hate. And with the abundance of both that you all posses..you just might succeed. But alas, doesn't matter what you do or say, in the we will have the final laugh....and oh how I will laugh. Smiley

And don't bother with a response, because, as I said I decided a while ago your nothing but a waste of time.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #145 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:32am
 

Quote:
Isn't that what you argued Abu?


I did? I don't think so. Islam is clearly against homosexuality. But please let us not go here again, you've really done it to death. You know Islam prohibits homosexuality, and the claims that homosexuality was allowed in Islamic society was just orientalist propaganda, meant to be consumed by an anti-homosexual Europe (in the past), to justify wars and crusades.

Quote:
If you don't want to ask, why did you ask?


It was a rhetorical question. I know quite well that Biblical prophets did keep concubines and that it was considered quite acceptable in their religion.

Quote:
So they can only take sex slaves as war booty in times of war, but not in times of peace? I must have forgotten going over this one


Sex slaves is not the correct terminology and really doesn't befit the situation that existed. Yes in times of peace it's forbidden to take slaves, and as mentioned in the last days of the Caliphate, it was even forbidden at all to take slaves. It is a practise that existed in the past, but need not exist in the future, and Islamically, it's preferred for it not to exist, hence the great rewards for freeing slaves. Islam came as a mercy to mankind, to free them from their bonds to other men, not enslave them. The discussion of this topic here really does not do the Islamic history any justice whatsoever. You must look at it in it's correct perspective, Islam was a leading force in the decline of slavery throughout most of it's history. Those cases where it wasn't, like the Barbary slave trade for instance, where special cases that were not really sanctioned by Islam. The Barbary states grew out of the Moors who had escaped the inquisition and reconquista of al-Andalus and re-settled in North Africa, and they were seeking revenge for their mistreatment by the Catholics, and so they raided the coasts of the new Catholic Iberia, pillaging what they could and taking them as slaves. It wasn't right... but after what they'd been through, one can certainly see their justifications as having some validity.

Quote:
Can you list the examples for us?


It's what we are discussing now. Concubinage. Or did you mean something other than that?

Quote:
Haven't we been over this before? The fact that sharia law is not implimented does not mean that questions about what sharia law are moot.


It is, because it doesn't exist, and hasn't for a long time. Yes as Muslims we should be living under it, but we're not. I most likely won't in my lifetime, so what is the benefit in discussing what it hypothetically would and wouldn't allow? Concubinage is not a requirement of Islam, and therefore speculating that it might or might not be including as a means of dealing with the welfare issues that could arise out of a hypothetical future conflict is just ludicrous. Trends towards the end of the Ottoman Caliphate tend to indicate that it would probably not exist, but can't guarantee that... can you guarantee me democracies or Jewish or christian states would never re-implement it? You can't, and arguing over whether they might is just ridiculous.

But like with everything else, when discussing Islam, anything goes.. True?

Quote:
Or do you suggest people not bother themselves with finding out what it is until they find themselves living under it?


Exactly, ignorance is bliss, so remain in a blissful state for now. Nothing like a surprise is there?

Quote:
So because immoral behaviour is inevitable Islam allows it in order to be 'realistic'?


Immoral is a subjective term.
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #146 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:40am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:27am:
Lestat wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:21am:
jordan484 wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:42am:
Quote:
Why would Islam be any different?

Because you claim it's superior to all other belief systems, that it is the only truth and that it is the only moral way to live. If it does as all others do, why is it so special?


Don't you believe that your 'western' beliefs are superior to Islam. You have said so a number of times.

Yes. One pertinent reason is that there is no sex slavery in western law.



So if you believe that your beliefs are superior to others...then don't squeal like a b(tch when others do likewise.

I know Islam is superior to anything you can produce...and unlike you, I don't need to attack others beliefs due to a sense of insecurity. I am confortable with my religon and beliefs...the question is...are you? If so, then why spend more time attacking other beliefs, then actually practising your own?

As Abu has mentioned alreayd, their is no sex slavery in Islamic law....or maybe you can prove me wrong and highlight the Shariah law that you believe pertains to sex slavery.

And bit rich, given that sex and slavery make up two of the largest industries in the western world (the largest being Arms industry). I don't see any porn sites....prostitution rackets being organised in muslim countries...no, almost always they are organised by westerners....just like you!
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #147 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:48am
 
Quote:
Exactly, ignorance is bliss, so remain in a blissful state for now. Nothing like a surprise is there?

Do you actually believe that, or could you just not be bothered answering the question?
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Soren
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Re: Women in islam
Reply #148 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:48am
 
Lestat wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:40am:
Soren wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:27am:
Lestat wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:21am:
jordan484 wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 9:42am:
Quote:
Why would Islam be any different?

Because you claim it's superior to all other belief systems, that it is the only truth and that it is the only moral way to live. If it does as all others do, why is it so special?


Don't you believe that your 'western' beliefs are superior to Islam. You have said so a number of times.

Yes. One pertinent reason is that there is no sex slavery in western law.



So if you believe that your beliefs are superior to others...then don't squeal like a b(tch when others do likewise.



Superiority is not just in the declaring, Captain. You actually have to be superior. This is the trap for Muslims. Declaring a lot of things don't make them so.  
Declaring the koran the most beautiful book, unsurpassable in its (your favorite hypoerbole here) does not make it true.
Declaring Islam the religion of peace does not make it so.

If your emperor is not exactly starkers, his ar$e is certainly hanging out in the most ridiculous fashion.




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« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2008 at 12:00pm by Soren »  

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Re: Women in islam
Reply #149 - Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:59am
 
Soren wrote on Oct 21st, 2008 at 11:48am:
Declaring a lot of things don't make them so.  


Right back at ya sunshine. Like I said, I'm comfortable with my beliefs, I don't need to justify my own religon and beliefs by attacking others. Sadly same can't be said about you.

I suspect that you know your religon to be inferior, after all, your priests are so sex starved that they revert to playing with little boys. These things obviously nag at you, and when you see all your woman (thousands) flocking to the banner of Islam, its understandable that you feel inferior. However, you hope that by attacking that which is clearly far superior to anything you have ever come accross, and if enough people agree with you, you might be able to convince yourself otherwise. Its called an inferiority complex. Those who are inferior will spend all their time attacking other beliefs...trying to put them down.

THose who are comfortable with their beliefs....will move on and live their lives.

Take Gaybriel for example...I believe that she is Christian, however, unlike you, it appears she is comfortable with her beliefs, hence, she does not attempt to put down others.

You on the other hand.....INFERIORITY COMPLEX!






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