Yes, easy mistake to make, we have been going around in circles for a couple of weeks on this subject, and believe it or not, we have reached a concensus, Islam is, as it always has been, and always will be, perfect in every way.
I tried to resist, but the weight of evidence from Islam was too great to withstand.

Acid Monkey wrote on Jul 28^th, 2008 at 8:11pm:

Thanks, I'll be sticking around, I doubt my opinions on Islam will be of any benefit, I'm one of those dreaded infidels who enjoys equality of the sexes, freedom of choice, independent thought, monogamy, gay rights...etc. I also enjoy a drop of wine from time to time and a beer on a hot summers afternoon. Pork is also a favourite of mine.

I'm just feeling my way around at the moment, it seems to be a little heavy on the islam topics......everything in moderation is fine....but I accidentally found myself at muslimvillage once.....I had to get the hell out of there, scary stuff. I hope this place is a little, should I say, different.

Something enraged the muslims?

Now that's unusual! 

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A massive problem with Islam is it's confusing appearance to outsiders, who see muslims coming to non-muslim countries, and demanding we change our ways to suit them, and then start crying foul when people resent that presumptuous and rude behaviour

This statement does nothing but show how much of a racist you are

But Abu, there is nothing at all racist in the statement.

and that you in fact don't consider Muslims to even be Australians

Isn't it true that genuine Muslims want to leave Australia as soon as the appropriate opportunity arises? How can you expect others to see you as genuine aussies when you see yourself as a temporary visitor in a nation whose values you reject?

I don't see mozza and co. jumping up and down and ranting and raving about their divided loyalties.

Jews don't believe that they have to leave Australia as soon as Israel is re-established. Plenty of Australian Jews speak out against Israel. If a new caliphate were to come and take back Israel by force, would Australian Muslims speak out against the caliphate, or would they sign up to fight for it?

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It's true that Islam came to Indonesia via trade but also with a little bit of the sword. The ruling empire in Java and Sumatra at the time was the Hindu Majapahit Empire

Completely irrelevant what happened in the internal situation of the country after Islam arrived.

No it isn't Abu. Read it again. It's about how Islam 'arrived'. Or are you saying that Muslims can take Australia by force once Islam has 'arrived' in a few small pockets here? You seem to be implying that Islam must merely establish itself peacefully in one area of a nation, then this counts as peaceful spread of Islam, then the Caliphate can attack the government and set up the entire nation as a religious state and tax infidels. Is this supposed to make people feel more accomodating toward Islam?

Any examples of pre-Christian religions still extant in Europe? None that I can think of.

that isn't exactly a solid argument Abu.

The key word here being "reached". Islam did arrive in indonesia through Muslim traders, and established a state there without the use of the sword. Yes at some point they had to use their military to maintain and perhaps expand, but that doesn't detract from the original arrival one iota.

What exactly is your point?

Islam did not arrive in Indonesia by the sword, it arrived through trade.

Didn't you just point out the meaninglessness of referring to Indonesia as a single entity at that time?

abu,

don't tell me what I do or don't like, what I should or shouldn't like and don't bother wasting your time preaching your vile religion to me. You and malik are bigots of the highest order. Now crawl back to muslimvillage where you belong.

Hmmm. Actually Jordan that DOES look good! And the spuds are huge!

freediver,

You're a little late into this discussion, and in fact I think a lot of the points you mentioned have already been addressed, so anything I skip, is probably already answered a page or so back.

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Well there is actually. Because mozza has insinuated that non-Muslims are welcome to campaign for changes to Australian society, yet Muslims for some reason don't deserve the same right. Since we're always outsiders and aliens, we'd just be considered bad guests who wanted everyone to accomodate us.

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We're here, and a large % of us are born here. What may or may not happen in the future is irrelevant. A lot of Aussies leave Australia to go and live in England, USA, Canada etc. because they prefer the lifestyle there, are they unAustralian? Were they just visitors the whole time they were here? many of them probably dreamed their whole life of living in the great US of A instead of the backwards Australia they were unlucky enough to be born in. In fact the epitome of Australian-ness Paul Hogan himself is now a resident of the USA, would you consider him unAustralian? Was he just a visitor here for the time he lived here?

Also when some Australians give a much less than welcoming attitude to Muslims, do you expect them to want to stay and consider this their home? That's probably the intention though I guess, make them feel unwelcome so they wanna leave.

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This whole thing about Aussie values is just nonsensical. Mateship is an Aussie value right? Like all the other people in the world just give eachother the cold shoulder, cos they're not Aussies who value mateship like us right?

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Are you sure about that? Perhaps you should go read up on the concept of Aliyah. What you mean to say is not all Jews, likewise not all Muslims intend to leave Australia if a Caliphate is established, so this only negates your own argument.

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Why would we speak against our fellow Muslims being freed from the 60 year long siege they've suffered? Would you speak out against it?

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A few points, that you would've understood if you read the full text of our discussion:

1) Islam was in Indonesia for 200 years before the Majaphit wars.

2) Islam didn't 'take over', existing princes of city-states embraced Islam, and their city-states therefore became Muslim along with them.