Australian Politics Forum - Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children

Malik Shakur

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Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Jul 7^th, 2008 at 12:05am

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Malik Shakur Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 799 Auckland, New Zealand Gender:	Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children Reply #1 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 12:21am And Ted Haggard, the preacher on there insulting homosexuals has now admitted he's GAY! Hypocracy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhcScBdnEhY&feature=related
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mozzaok

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #2 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 6:11am

You get no argument from me Malik, they are twisted in the head.
Are you looking for validation for Islam by pointing out that others, born again christian extremists in this case, that believe things different than you, which are equally preposterous, somehow makes Islamic teachings seem sensible?

I think you have kicked an own goal Malik, you assume that opposition to Islam is a coordinated attack from right wing extremist christians, and it isn't.

It is broadly based, across all sections of the non- Islamic world, from people who are just sick to death of hearing about Allah from people with guns in their hands, and hate in their hearts.

I have said it before, no matter how nice a person may be, if they really believe their religious bull, they are self deluders.
Personally that is fine, but only up to the point where their fallacious beliefs do not impact negatively upon others.

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muso

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #3 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 8:05am

I think it's unfortunate that every time Malik types a word on this forum, he is taken to be speaking for Islam and every word is interpreted to have a hidden agenda.

Muslims are actually human beings with individual opinions, and they sometimes even disagree with each other. Islam is not like the Borg. It's not even a cult. It's a major world religion but like most religions, it has its downside (of course that's the view from my own little window on the universe).

On the main subject, fortunately we don't have anything like that in this country yet, although the way that private education is funded, we might even see Jesus Camp in this country yet , subsidized by Australian taxpayers.

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mozzaok

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #4 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:16am

The doco was extremely disturbing, but it did achieve it's aims to warn the greater public, of the dangers that extreme religious fanatics pose.

What did they do about it?

They had them shut down.

They derided them on national television.

They sparked calls of outrage from christians who felt that these extremists diminished their credibility as christians.

So I think that it shows that the western world is capable of denouncing the most blatant idiocy when it is pointed out to them, I just wish they could see the more subtle forms of idiocy that the neo-cons have promoted, which Malik has referred to, like the appalling foreign policy of the US.

He fairly points to US interference in middle eastern governments as adding to the problems, by propping up, or legitimising creeps like the saudis, this is where it gets very tricky, because diplomatic means are not likely to have great impact.

The US will hopefully see a change of direction, post Bush, but if the middle eastern people could get a rallying point for freedom, outside of, and separate from the religious zealotry we now see, there may still be scope for improvement without violence.

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muso

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #5 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:30am

mozzaok wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:16am:

He fairly points to US interference in middle eastern governments as adding to the problems, by propping up, or legitimising creeps like the saudis, this is where it gets very tricky, because diplomatic means are not likely to have great impact.

The US will hopefully see a change of direction, post Bush, but if the middle eastern people could get a rallying point for freedom, outside of, and separate from the religious zealotry we now see, there may still be scope for improvement without violence.

I heard an interesting talk on Radio National the other day in which they were talking about religion in the US.

It seems that the fastest growing religious position in the US today is actually the 'non-religious'. The fundamentalists have a strong hold in many parts of the US, but their core of true believers is relatively small. They just have the ability to influence a large section of the community and offer them all kinds of social incentives for belonging to the Church.

It's interesting to me how so many of the 'Fundies' will actually be voting for Obama. It seems that many feel guilty about 'selling their souls' to Bush's Republicans.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #6 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:35am

mozzaok wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 6:11am:

You get no argument from me Malik, they are twisted in the head.
Are you looking for validation for Islam by pointing out that others, born again christian extremists in this case, that believe things different than you, which are equally preposterous, somehow makes Islamic teachings seem sensible?

I think you have kicked an own goal Malik, you assume that opposition to Islam is a coordinated attack from right wing extremist christians, and it isn't.

It is broadly based, across all sections of the non- Islamic world, from people who are just sick to death of hearing about Allah from people with guns in their hands, and hate in their hearts.

I have said it before, no matter how nice a person may be, if they really believe their religious bull, they are self deluders.
Personally that is fine, but only up to the point where their fallacious beliefs do not impact negatively upon others.

Thats quite an assumption there mate.

And posting it certainly wasn't an own goal.

The US has many many people like the ones shown in the movie, their nation is run according to the Christian Rights political agenda.

US Government policy (including their foreign policy) is dictated by the Christian Right's own agenda.

They've infiltrated every facet of thet US Government and military.

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mozzaok

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #7 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:46am

I was referring to the belief that pointing out somebody else's craziness, would somehow legitimise opposing craziness.

We are talking about fanatics here.

The woman who was traumatising these kids in the name of jesus, spoke of how muslims trained their kids to die for their religion, and how "we"(actually the pentecostal christian wackos, but she was inferring 'ALL' christians), need to do the same.

Great just what we want, more kids being taught to kill and die for a delusional belief system.

Fortunately, the outrage this program caused, saw the authorities step in and shut down these wackos, personally I would like to have seen them charged with child abuse, for their psychological manipulation of these kids.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #8 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:50am

mozzaok wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 9:46am:

I was referring to the belief that pointing out somebody else's craziness, would somehow legitimise opposing craziness.

We are talking about fanatics here.

The woman who was traumatising these kids in the name of jesus, spoke of how muslims trained their kids to die for their religion, and how "we"(actually the pentecostal christian wackos, but she was inferring 'ALL' christians), need to do the same.

Great just what we want, more kids being taught to kill and die for a delusional belief system.

Fortunately, the outrage this program caused, saw the authorities step in and shut down these wackos, personally I would like to have seen them charged with child abuse, for their psychological manipulation of these kids.

So you're telling me that all Muslim children are trained to kill and die for Islam?

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mozzaok

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #9 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 10:35am

Is that a legitimate question Malik, or ARE YOU BEING DELIBERATELY DENSE?

I quoted the woman, who I described as a wacko fanatic, as saying "we", which I specifically qualified as to which 'we' she was referring.

As I am neither christian or pentecostal, I think it would be safe to exclude me from the "we" in question.

I don't classify all muslims as fanatics, I don't classify all christians as fanatics, and I especially do not endorse one group of fanatics, trying to outfanaticise another.

I think your misunderstanding is that I do classify all religious people as being deluded, and you then extrapolate that I must also therefore consider them as being fanatical, because of their delusional beliefs.

I don't.

I do despise the idea of any kids being taught to hate, to the point of being willing to kill, or die for, any delusional belief, be it christian, muslim, sikh, hindu or any of the myriad of false gods that people adhere to.

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King Billy New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25	Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children Reply #10 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 5:33pm It is not a particular religion we should condemn, it is fundamentalism, whatever it's form, and particularly those who seek to exploit fundamentalism to further thier meglomanical desires. Bill
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #11 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 6:46pm

mozzaok - though I have not seen the clips I'm happy to go with mozzaoks comments.

yes, I'ld call that child abuse too. It could be termed psychological abuse.

As if often in a free society, a whacko version of something may arise.
The normal members of that movement shuts them down rapidly.

malik - my children go to public schools.

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Malik Shakur Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 799 Auckland, New Zealand Gender:	Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children Reply #12 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 7:52pm King Billy wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 5:33pm: It is not a particular religion we should condemn, it is fundamentalism, whatever it's form, and particularly those who seek to exploit fundamentalism to further thier meglomanical desires. Bill That's a good point, but how do we define fundamentalism?
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mozzaok

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #13 - Jul 7^th, 2008 at 10:22pm

Fundamentalists, broadly speaking, are those who literally follow a set religious text.

Which unfortunately would include most of those whom you would describe as good, muslims, and those who literally follow bible teachings.

They tend to place religious beliefs above all secular obligations, and often have a disdainful attitude to the broader society.

So what they consider as their religious duty, most see as a form of anti-social behaviour, by ignoring modern social obligations, in favour of out of date texts, written by people from a primitive and violent culture, from times when our views of the world were based on primitive, superstitious, and unscientific knowledge.

So the evangelical christian lot are pretty much included, as well as most strict muslims.

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Malik Shakur

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Re: Jesus Camp-Extremists Indoctrinating Children
Reply #14 - Jul 8^th, 2008 at 12:00am

mozzaok wrote on Jul 7^th, 2008 at 10:22pm:

Fundamentalists, broadly speaking, are those who literally follow a set religious text.

Which unfortunately would include most of those whom you would describe as good, muslims, and those who literally follow bible teachings.

They tend to place religious beliefs above all secular obligations, and often have a disdainful attitude to the broader society.

So what they consider as their religious duty, most see as a form of anti-social behaviour, by ignoring modern social obligations, in favour of out of date texts, written by people from a primitive and violent culture, from times when our views of the world were based on primitive, superstitious, and unscientific knowledge.

So the evangelical christian lot are pretty much included, as well as most strict muslims.

I see a fundamentalist as one who follows their religion as it was intended to be followed.

So I don't see a problem with that at all, I do see a problem however with extremists who wish to force their religion on others and try and compel them to believe and act like those of other religions are somehow less human because of their beliefs.

I do see also that people with beliefs that somehow someone who follows their religion the way it should be as being wrong or anti social as somewhat of an extremist themselves. Because they are judging others in that sense.

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