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Islam and Australian values (Read 35646 times)
Sprintcyclist
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #45 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 9:47pm
 


Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"


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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #46 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 9:51pm
 
Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:
Narrated 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."



http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/084.sbt.html#009.084.058
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« Last Edit: Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:05pm by Sprintcyclist »  

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #47 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 9:52pm
 
Sprint would you mind including the link as well when you copy and paste?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #48 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:03pm
 
Yes Sprint, those are all hadiths from the right source (for once) but what your missing is the fact that when these people had left Islam, they openly went out and waged war against the State, thus making them guilty of treason.

It's not because they left Islam that they were executed but because of the treason.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #49 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:08pm
 
The second of the two quotes looks very much like death for apostasy to me Malik.

Also, should it have included pedophilia?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #50 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:32pm
 

This is not an Aussie value.
It is from the UAE. A muslim country.



"Arab royals accused of enslaving 17 women  From correspondents in Brussels
July 04, 2008 12:52am

SEVENTEEN women have been taken by police from a luxury hotel in Brussels amid allegations they had been enslaved by an Arab royal family.

The women were freed from one of Europe's most stylish hotels, where they claimed they were being kept captive to wait hand and foot on a royal heiress and four princesses.

The women were allegedly held captive for eight months by the widow of an emir from the United Arab Emirates and her daughters, The Australian reports.

The family had hired the entire fourth floor of the exclusive Conrad Hotel in Brussels, according to reports in Belgium yesterday.

In scenes described by onlookers as pure Hollywood, dozens of police raided the hotel, in the chic Avenue Louise, after one of the slaves managed to escape and raise the alarm.

In the luxury rooms, each costing up to E300 ($500) a night, they found women from countries including The Philippines, Morocco, India, Egypt, Turkey, Iraq and Syria.

The women claimed they were kept as prisoners and forced to work as cleaners, servants and cooks, after their passports were taken away. Two of the slaves staged a breakout last week but one was quickly recaptured by the family's bodyguards at the city airport, according to an agency that represents immigrants and is helping the women.

They claimed they were paid less than E150 each a month and had to be on call 24 hours a day.

The Belgian Labour Audit Authority was investigating whether the women were victims of human trafficking, brought to Belgium to work for their royal mistresses.

The freed women are being housed in local government accommodation centres.

The Conrad prides itself as the most exclusive hotel in Brussels, a city not short on luxury accommodation. Its basic rooms are described as the largest in the Belgian capital and "offer calm and total tranquillity" and the "highest levels of comfort".

According to the hotel's publicity, the premium guest rooms "give you the familiar feeling of simply being at home".


http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23967010-954,00.html
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #51 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:36pm
 
freediver,

Quote:
In Australia, muslims would presumably only act if they gained some power as a voting block


Islam forbids voting in democratic elections. Even though some Muslims do participate in this activity, it is generally out of ignorance.

Quote:
Can a Muslim man take an atheist wife?


No. Muslim, Christian or Jewish only.

Quote:
What other things are legal in Australia but illegal under Islamic law?


How about some things that are legal under Islam and illegal in Australia?
After all, isn't it meant to be a wiki entry about the differences between Australian and Islamic values? Or is it really just "Lets find all stuf about  Islam that we find barbaric or out of touch and post it here to mock Islam", if that's what you want to do, then make the title more relevant to what it is you're actually doing.

My participation in this discussion is ceasing from this post, you are not even worth discussing this with.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #52 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:36pm
 
Islam doesn't allow that behaviour, that's the problem with just picking and choosing hadiths, you don't get the full picture and context about the situations it talks about. Apostasy is not punishable by death, it will be punished in the next life by God.

If you force people to stay Muslim by threatening them with death if they leave it will mean they will become hypocrites and not really believe, that is far worse for the community than people who have openly changed religion, at least you know where they stand.

Below is a fatwa on the issue.


Quote:
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Sc...
Title
Should an Apostate Be Put to Death?

Question

Respected scholars, as-salamu `alaykum. Is it true that in Islam a person must be put to death if he or she converts to another religion? Jazakum Allahu khayran.

Date
27/Mar/2006

Name of Counsellor
Ahmad Kutty

Topic
Apostasy

Answer

Wa`alaykum as-salamu wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh.

In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.

Dear brother in Islam, thanks a lot for your question, which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to knowledgeable people to learn more about the teachings of Islam.

It is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who choose to leave Islam. To kill anyone who chooses to follow a religion other than Islam is against the fundamental teachings of the Qur'an. Freedom of conscience is a fundamental principle of the Qur'an that is clearly stated. Thus, if apostates cause no harm to the Muslim community and do not call for spreading hostility towards Islam, they should not to be punished; rather they should be advised kindly and wisely to learn the truth about Islam.

In his response to your question, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states the following:

Freedom of conscience is one of the fundamental rights of humans enshrined in the Qur'an; it is therefore, absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam allows putting people to death just because they convert to another religion.

Even a casual reader of the Qur'an will not fail to be impressed by its emphasis on the freedom of conscience as a cornerstone of its moral structure. To cite a few verses as follows:

[There shall be no compulsion in religion. Distinct has now become the right way from [the wayof] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing] ( Al-Baqarah 2:256)

[If it had been your Lord's will, all who are in the earth would have believed. Will you, then, force the people to become believers?] (Yunus 10:99)

[And if they surrender themselves unto Him (i.e. God), they are on the right path; but if they turn away – behold, thy duty (O Muhammad,) is no more than to deliver the message: for God sees all that is in [the hearts of] His creatures.] (Aal `Imran 3:20)

[Hence, pay heed unto God, and pay heed unto the Messenger, and be ever on your guard [against evil]; and if you turn away, then know that Our Messenger's only duty is a clear delivery of the message [entrusted to him].] (Al-Ma'idah 5:92)


[But if they turn away [from thee, O Prophet, know that] Wehave not sent thee to be their keeper: thou art not bound to do more than deliver the message [entrusted to thee] .] (Ash-Shura 42:48)
I should further state that all of the moral teachings of the Qur'an are based on the notion of moral responsibility, which entails the freedom of choice. Therefore, to state that one must be put to death for choosing to disbelieve would only undermine the entire moral edifice of the Qur'an.

Furthermore, the Qur'an does not allow anyone to harm those who are leaving in peace, no matter what religion they hold on to. This principle has been clearly stated in the Qur'an as follows:

[Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.] (An-Nisaa' 4:90)
In pursuance of this policy, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) issued clear directives to his soldiers never to disturb those who are engaged in any form of worship. The policy of living and letting others to live is firmly enshrined in the following verses:

[Say: O disbelievers! I do not worship what you worship, Nordo you worship what I worship.. to you your religion, and to me, mine.] (Al-Kafirun 109:1-3, 6)

In full conformity with the above teachings, neither the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) nor any of the four rightly guided caliphs who succeeded him were in the habit of hunting down people and executing them for merely changing their religions. Rather, they refrained from doing so except in rare cases involving treason. Treason, however, is another matter. The punishment for treason in the Qur'an is as strict as it is in the Hebrew Bible. But it must never be confused with mere change of religion.

In conclusion, it is absurd for anyone to suggest that Islam advocates killing people who covert to another religion.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #53 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:39pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:32pm:
This is not an Aussie value.
It is from the UAE. A muslim country.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23967010-954,00.html

What do you expect from people who claim to be kings?

This type of behaviour is forbidden in Islam and they clearly think that they are above Islamic law.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #54 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:42pm
 
malik - most kings are very good for their people and well loved by them.

Most kings feel responsible for their people, not that they were "born perfect" and are a "superior belief system."

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #55 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:50pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 10:42pm:
malik - most kings are very good for their people and well loved by them.

Most kings feel responsible for their people, not that they were "born perfect" and are a "superior belief system."


Oh, so you don't believe in democracy.. Sorry I thought you did.

If kings were loved so much how come the US colonies rebelled against the king of england, or how come the french rebelled against their monarchy?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #56 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:22pm
 
back to the topic.

seems murdering those that leave islam is a direction.
many other muslims have justified this stance to me.
Want their reasons?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #57 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:35pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:22pm:
back to the topic.

seems murdering those that leave islam is a direction.
many other muslims have justified this stance to me.
Want their reasons?

Not really, just becauase a Muslim states something is the appropriate way it doesn't necessarily make it a teaching of Islam. The problem lays with peoples lack of any ability to look at context when forming an opinion.

Those hadiths don't fit with what the Qur'an says, so that's even more of a reason why it's important to look at the context behind them instead of taking them at face value and be black and white to mean if someone becomes an apostate you should kill them. The problem lays with your inability to see that. That's why I said you'd be a great wahabi because they have the same problem.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #58 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:10am
 
as I have said before,

the wahabis have had this "misinterperetation for many generations.
What's say the non-wahabis show them where they are wrong ?

Yes, it is that simple.

there are korans quotes that support that mindset
Just as a hyperthetical, what if the wahabis proved they were right, and you wrong ?
What would you do ?

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #59 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:22am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:10am:
as I have said before,

the wahabis have had this "misinterperetation for many generations.
What's say the non-wahabis show them where they are wrong ?

Yes, it is that simple.

there are korans quotes that support that mindset
Just as a hyperthetical, what if the wahabis proved they were right, and you wrong ?
What would you do ?


It's a hypothetical which wont happen because they ARE wrong.

They have been shown that they are wrong, but they have this idea that if you disagree with them that you are not a Muslim and they can kill you.

So they did that in the middle east, alot..

They are crazy and the reason they are still in power and have influence is because the West supports their governments.

Stop supporting wahabis and you'll see an end to groups like Al Qaeda.
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