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Islam and Australian values (Read 35647 times)
freediver
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #150 - Sep 1st, 2008 at 1:22pm
 
Quote:
You still have this view that something like tax laws are irrelevant to Islam


No I don't. It would be more accurate to say they are irrelevant to me, as none of my arguments are about it.

Quote:
but the fact is that if the government has spent the past 80 years educating the populace in tribalistic beliefs....


Has that actually happened?

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If the state doesn't exist, then arguing over what occurs today is irrelevant.


Not really. You can still stand up for women's rights, for the rights of your daughter, for the rights of your wife etc, even if the government doesn't enforce the same standards on your behalf. Take for example the culture we used to have in the west where men would open doors for women and all that sort of stuff. None of that was ever government enforced. Also, our treatment of young girls with regard to marriage sets a far higher standard than the law. The law in many western countries allows old men to marry relatively young teenagers with parents permission, but by and large parents never let that happen because such relationships are usually exploitive.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #151 - Sep 2nd, 2008 at 2:36am
 
CANT REFUTE...  IGNORE.

NICE TRY ABOO, BUT i'D SAY EVERYONE NOTICED.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #152 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 4:23pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:50am:
Quote:
things like communism, democracy etc that you brought up to show that ideologies require government implimentation otherwise they lose their following.


Well I think we have a misunderstanding here as to what's meant by following. After Communism fell, there's still many Communists left in Russia. People who believe in the ideology, but that doesn't mean that Communism is implemented in their society anymore. So they might keep and read their little red books (ok, that's Mao, but just using it for effect), they might attend communist party gatherings, they might do certain things (almost ritual like stuff), but that doesn't mean they're implementing Communism. Believing in an ideology and actually living/implementing it are not the same thing. One requires a state, the other does not.

Quote:
Fair enough if people abondon the tax laws once the government stops enforcing it, but that doesn't explain why the middle east went 'back' to opressing women etc so quickly.


You still have this view that something like tax laws are irrelevant to Islam, whereas treatment of women shouldn't be. I understand what you're saying, that tax is something implemented on the people by the state, whilst treatment of women is an individual activity, but the fact is that if the government has spent the past 80 years educating the populace in tribalistic beliefs like that men own women, then people will move towards those beliefs. They become ingrained in society. Now back to the original point, Islam clearly states the girl has a right to refuse or accept a marriage, and the Islamic state must uphold that right. If the state doesn't exist, then arguing over what occurs today is irrelevant. Also arguing over why society no longer protects that right is irrelevant, since the new societies that've been formed in the Muslim lands are not based on Islam. They might mix a few Islamic ideas in here and there, but by large they are not Islamic.



I put this in my list of techniques used to try to decieve non-Muslims.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Deception_of_Non-Muslims#Islam_doe...

Most of the criticism of what happens in the middle east has nothing to do with contract law, tax law, dodgy used car salesmen etc. It is about social issues. These are not solely controlled by the state. Abu claims that once a state stops enforcing a particular religious ideology, it stops having an influence. This is simply not true. Christianity had a very strong influence over western societies for centuries after it stopped being imposed on them. The distinction itself is absurd, because it is not a one-way street. The government, whatever form it takes, reflects the religion and views of the people more than it influences them.

Saying that social standards like the treatment of women have nothing to do with Islam if Islam is not imposed on people by the state is absurd. People are still Muslims. If anything, this is evidence that Islam undermines the standing of women in a society, because it is not enough for people to hold Islamic values. Rather, it has to be imposed on them. Muslims will not simply treat women right because it is the right thing to do, either at the personal, family, or community level. Instead, they will mistreat them, and can only be coerced into treating them well if it is imposed from above.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #153 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 5:07pm
 
Quote:
The distinction itself is absurd, because it is not a one-way street. The government, whatever form it takes, reflects the religion and views of the people more than it influences them.


Might be true to some extent in Democratic countries. In Middle Eastern dictatorships it means nothing. The people accept the views of the state, or they can goto prison and be tortured, that's the only two choices.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #154 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 5:14pm
 
That makes sense for things like Saudi forcing women to wear face covers in addition to the traditional Islamic tent. But what middle eastern dictatorships torture men for treating women respectfully, or not stoning them to death for adultery, or not marrying them off to a lecherous old man once they hit puberty?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #155 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 6:37pm
 

No, you stated that the religion of the people is reflected in the government, but in Muslim countries it's simply not the case. The government's are mostly the harshest enemies against Islam, and openly and covertly prevent Muslims practising their religion.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #156 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 6:47pm
 
Other than not being a proper Caliphate, how do they prevent Muslims from practising their religion? Which countries are you referring to now?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #157 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 7:51pm
 

Pretty much all of the Arab countries. Islamic political parties are banned, in some the hijab is banned in certain places, in some there is discrimination against people with beards.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #158 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 9:51pm
 
Is Iran an Arab country? Can you give some specific examples? As far as I know Saudi requires women to wear the full tent outfit. I'm only aware of Turkey banning it in universities.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #159 - Nov 5th, 2008 at 10:16pm
 

Quote:
Is Iran an Arab country?


No. Persian.

Quote:
Can you give some specific examples?


For the beard, most Arabic countries do not permit men to have beards in the armed forces for instance, and usually they also have national service, which means they'll be forced to shave their beards for a few years. Also it's difficult to enter many clubs and other social venues if you have a beard in quite a few Arabic countries.

Quote:
As far as I know Saudi requires women to wear the full tent outfit.


Saudi Arabia requires wearing of the hijab, it does not require a 'full tent outfit', you do waffle on some nonsense sometimes freediver.

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I'm only aware of Turkey banning it in universities.


Tunisia and Azerbaijan  as well.

Quote:
Tunisia is also one of three Muslim countries (Azerbaijan and Turkey are the others) that prohibits the hijab in government buildings. By government edict, women that insist on wearing the hijab cannot enter public buildings. Dissenters are liable to a fine and have to sign a document to avoid recidivism.

Tunisia on wikipedia
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #160 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 8:44am
 
most Arabic countries do not permit men to have beards in the armed forces for instance

I'd imagine it could cause problems with machine guns etc. Do they also ban beards around rotating equipment?

Also it's difficult to enter many clubs and other social venues if you have a beard in quite a few Arabic countries.

My initial response to this was that nightclubs set their own rules for dress standards etc, but something makes me think you are referring to some other type of club. All clubs set their own standards. membership is optional.

Saudi Arabia requires wearing of the hijab, it does not require a 'full tent outfit', you do waffle on some nonsense sometimes freediver.

I thought you said they had to cover their face and hands there.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #161 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 9:06am
 

Quote:
I'd imagine it could cause problems with machine guns etc. Do they also ban beards around rotating equipment?


Actually in some countries it's restricted only to officers, so unless using pens to write reports might get in the way of your beard, your explanation doesn't make a lot of sense. Anyway, the original point still stands, if the government reflected the religion of the people, they'd allow beards, or even demand them. I think even Israel permits soldiers to have beards.

Quote:
but something makes me think you are referring to some other type of club.


Of course I'm not talking about nightclubs. Talking about social/sporting clubs that exist in most Arabic countries where people goto eat, play sports and socialise. Many of them, the most prestigious ones are usually linked in with the higher ranks of the military and government.

You do realise it's possible to have social clubs that don't revolve around alcohol consumption and casual encounters with the opposite sex, don't you? Although some of that probably occurs in some anyway.

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I thought you said they had to cover their face and hands there.


I don't believe so. Unless you'd care to quote me?

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #162 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 10:46am
 
So you don't think clubs should be allowed to set their own standards for dress and personal grooming?

Quote:
Anyway, the original point still stands, if the government reflected the religion of the people, they'd allow beards, or even demand them.


What I initially said was that the government reflects the views of the people more than the other way round. Picking up a few examples where they differ hardly disproves this. You are merely giving the exceptions that prove the rule. While the middle east or North Africa may not be a perfect example of Sharia law, you cannot pretend that stoning people to death or treating women as property or sex slaves has nothing at all to do with Islam.

Quote:
Muslims will not simply treat women right because it is the right thing to do, either at the personal, family, or community level. Instead, they will mistreat them, and can only be coerced into treating them well if it is imposed from above.


Correction: and can only be coerced into treating them slightly better if it is imposed from above
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« Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2008 at 11:09am by freediver »  

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #163 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 11:17am
 
Quote:
So you don't think clubs should be allowed to set their own standards for dress and personal grooming?


Where did I say what I think should and shouldn't occur. Please stick with the dialogue fd. What I said is that governments in most Muslim countries couldn't care less about the religion of the people and in fact often discriminate against them.

Quote:
What I initially said was that the government reflects the views of the people more than the other way round.


And I said I agree in democracies. But not in dictatorships. There's no need for them to. They dictate what they want and the people follow suit.

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #164 - Nov 6th, 2008 at 11:30am
 
But there is a need for them to. Even a dictator has to appeal to the people and play politics. They just play the game a bit differenctly. You don't see any South American dictators trying to tell people they can't be Catholic. That doesn't mean they are model catholics and impliment catholic doctrine by the book. But if you look at a South American dictatorship and a middle eastern one, the influence of the people's views on government will be quite evident. It's only when you loose yourself in a few details of how one country differs from the views of the people that you can loose all perspective and pretend this doesn't happen.

You can't claim for example that stoning people to death in the middle east and mistreating women has nothing to do with Islam, just because Islamic doctrine is not imposed from above.
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