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Islam and Australian values (Read 9886 times)
freediver
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #135 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 2:52pm
 
I'm just trying to figure out what a law against forcing a child into marriage means in practice. I don't think it is a moot point at all. It's what the thread is about.

Also, you mentioned that the post-Islamic societies of today are 80 years removed the Islamic laws and systems. Why did it take only 80 years to end up how it is now? Why didn't the people simply go on living up to the standards of Islam even though it wasn't imposed on them from above?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #136 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 3:49pm
 
The Russian people are only 20 years removed from Communism, why do they not still live according to it's laws and dictates?

The German people are only about 70 years removed from Nazism, why they not still live according to it's laws and dictates?

One could just go on and on, but I'm sure you get the picture, and realise the absurdity of your question.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #137 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 6:11pm
 
The Russian people are only 20 years removed from Communism, why do they not still live according to it's laws and dictates?

Because it's an economic system. The government made all their decisions for them. You can't go on having the government make all your economic decisions for you if the government is not doing that.

You could however go on respecting women, and demanding respect for women, even if the government doesn't force you to do it.

The German people are only about 70 years removed from Nazism, why they not still live according to it's laws and dictates?

Because they rejected Nazism. Is that why people in the middle east don't live under Islam any more?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #138 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 6:51pm
 
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Because it's an economic system. The government made all their decisions for them. You can't go on having the government make all your economic decisions for you if the government is not doing that.


It was more than an economic system. It was a complete state system and ideology, and millions of people believed in it and some still do. But it no longer governs their societies and so it would be completely irrelevant to ask today "Why didn't such and such communist law from 20 years ago compel the people to still do such and such".

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You could however go on respecting women, and demanding respect for women, even if the government doesn't force you to do it.


Most Arab governments promote ignorant tribalistic beliefs and practises amongst their populaces, as they know that's the best way to keep them under control. Therefore they promote ideas like "men own their women" and so forth and it's from these ideas that forced marriages arise. Nothing to do with Islam, no matter how hard you try and twist it to appear that way. Just give up already, you really look quite desperate.

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Because they rejected Nazism.


Some did, some did not. There's still quite a lot of neo-nazi sentiment in Germany, and generally racist attitudes are still quite common amongst Germans. Either way, 70 years of 're-education' has removed most of the Nazi system from society, so why can't you just accept that 80 or more years of 're-education' in the former Caliphate lands has removed most of the Islamic system from those societies?

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Is that why people in the middle east don't live under Islam any more?


Most were duped into it. They were fed false ideas of nationalism, which caused them to engage in infighting and thereby assist the Sykes-Picot agreement to come to fruition. It's in the history books, you don't need me to re-iterate it for you, just look up Hussein Bin Ali or Mustafa Kemal, and you'll probably find a detailed account of how a lot of it happened.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #139 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 7:00pm
 
Either way, 70 years of 're-education' has removed most of the Nazi system from society

Only a small percentage of the population actually supported what is generally considered to be nazism. They only lived under nazism for a few years then rejected it, not a millenium. As for communsim, try being more specific. I am not familiar with any personal moral codes that comes with communism.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #140 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 7:55pm
 
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Only a small percentage of the population actually supported what is generally considered to be nazism


I see, so Hitler voted himself into power did he? And Crystal night and all the other pogoroms were actually Stormtroopers in civvies right? There has to have been quite a bit of popular support for something like Nazism to reach the point that it did.

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I am not familiar with any personal moral codes that comes with communism.


What do personal moral codes have to do with anything?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #141 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 9:13pm
 
When the laws of the land are more relaxed than Islamic law, Muslims are required to live by the higher standard. It becomes personal.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #142 - Aug 30th, 2008 at 10:24pm
 
Yes and it also means it's not being implemented by the state....

Come on freediver, these are things that anyone with half a wit about him could deduce. An ideology ceases to be implemented by the state, it's authority amongst general society wanes...

I really can't fathom what's driving you to persist with this empty discussion. Are you bored? Why don't you continue with the Setting the record straight discussion? Or am I just asking for more pointless discussions to erupt there as well, in which you can't find any actual mud to sling at Islam, so you scrape the bottom of the barrel for a quasi-argument?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #143 - Aug 31st, 2008 at 10:23am
 
An ideology ceases to be implemented by the state, it's authority amongst general society wanes...

That may be how it works with Islam, but Islam is unique among religions in this respect. Sure other types of ideologies require government enfvorcement, but that is because they are ideologies about governance, not morals. The fact that Islam requires government imposition indicates to me that people do not choose it as readily as other religions.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #144 - Aug 31st, 2008 at 8:25pm
 
Quote:
but that is because they are ideologies about governance, not morals..


Your assumption that Islam is merely an 'ideology about morals' is false.

In fact probably 90% or more of the jurisprudence in Islam is relating to societal transactions, not individual behaviour. It is an ideology about economics, about ruling, about criminal law, about social law, about foriegn relations, about agriculture, about military, about trade and so on. And yes, there are some laws relating to individual morals and behaviours, but they are a very tiny aspect of Islam.

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The fact that Islam requires government imposition indicates to me that people do not choose it as readily as other religions


Well a lot of people have, and continue to choose it. It seems you're claiming that the belief requires government imposition, this is wrong and is  clearly not what we were discusssing. We were discussing an aspect of the Islamic social system, quite clearly not 'individual morals'.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #145 - Aug 31st, 2008 at 8:30pm
 
Th real problem with islam is that you want to shove it down the throats of every last living being on the planet.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #146 - Aug 31st, 2008 at 9:11pm
 
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Your assumption that Islam is merely an 'ideology about morals' is false.


But I am not assuming that. I said the opposite.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #147 - Aug 31st, 2008 at 10:22pm
 
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Sure other types of ideologies require government enfvorcement, but that is because they are ideologies about governance, not morals.


This sentence appears to me like you're comparing Islam to other ideologies, and you've concluded other ideologies are about governance and not morals whilst Islam is about morals and not governance. And therefore that's why government enforcement is understandable in the former case, yet not the latter.

If this is not the case, then please clarify.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #148 - Aug 31st, 2008 at 10:44pm
 
That comment was referring to things like communism, democracy etc that you brought up to show that ideologies require government implimentation otherwise they lose their following. For the most part, religion is about personal morals. Islam is fairly unique in this respect. Fair enough if people abondon the tax laws once the government stops enforcing it, but that doesn't explain why the middle east went 'back' to opressing women etc so quickly.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #149 - Sep 1st, 2008 at 12:50am
 
Quote:
things like communism, democracy etc that you brought up to show that ideologies require government implimentation otherwise they lose their following.


Well I think we have a misunderstanding here as to what's meant by following. After Communism fell, there's still many Communists left in Russia. People who believe in the ideology, but that doesn't mean that Communism is implemented in their society anymore. So they might keep and read their little red books (ok, that's Mao, but just using it for effect), they might attend communist party gatherings, they might do certain things (almost ritual like stuff), but that doesn't mean they're implementing Communism. Believing in an ideology and actually living/implementing it are not the same thing. One requires a state, the other does not.

Quote:
Fair enough if people abondon the tax laws once the government stops enforcing it, but that doesn't explain why the middle east went 'back' to opressing women etc so quickly.


You still have this view that something like tax laws are irrelevant to Islam, whereas treatment of women shouldn't be. I understand what you're saying, that tax is something implemented on the people by the state, whilst treatment of women is an individual activity, but the fact is that if the government has spent the past 80 years educating the populace in tribalistic beliefs like that men own women, then people will move towards those beliefs. They become ingrained in society. Now back to the original point, Islam clearly states the girl has a right to refuse or accept a marriage, and the Islamic state must uphold that right. If the state doesn't exist, then arguing over what occurs today is irrelevant. Also arguing over why society no longer protects that right is irrelevant, since the new societies that've been formed in the Muslim lands are not based on Islam. They might mix a few Islamic ideas in here and there, but by large they are not Islamic.
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