Australian Politics Forum - Islam and Australian values

Acid Monkey

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #120 - Aug 11^th, 2008 at 5:53pm

Speaking of holocaust deniers, I've asked Malik a questions which wasn't answered. I guess this is a good time to address it again.

Iran's President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a holocaust denier. I wanted to know the basis and validity of his conclusions within a Muslim context.

Also, the question about Islamic revolutionary idealogy.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1216658313/3#3

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam and Australian values Reply #121 - Aug 11^th, 2008 at 5:55pm As I pointed out, the person who poasted that is a non-Muslim, so it's irrelevant here anyway and shouldn't have been posted in this thread.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #122 - Aug 11^th, 2008 at 5:57pm

Since he's Shi'a, that would best be answered by Malik I think.

Just going by my gut feeling at the time though, it seemed to me like he was just doing it to upset the West, to show the hypocrisy of the "Call to freedom of speech" when people wanted to speak about Muhammad (pbuh) or draw defamatory cartoons of him. Perhaps he's a bit of a stirrer.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47464 At my desk.	Re: Islam and Australian values Reply #123 - Aug 11^th, 2008 at 5:59pm Quote: Perhaps he's a bit of a stirrer. Oh great, just what you want in a middle eastern leader.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47464 At my desk.	Re: Islam and Australian values Reply #124 - Aug 29^th, 2008 at 1:53pm What is Islamic law regarding arranged marriages? Islam & Aussie Values Wiki Entry http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1218709393
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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #125 - Aug 29^th, 2008 at 3:02pm

Arranged marriages have no legal basis in Islam.

This doesn't mean they're not allowed, of course it's allowed for people to assist others in marrying.

However, it's not allowed to force someone to marry, and this is what people normally mean when they speak about 'arranged marriage'.

Here's some hadith relating to forced marriage:

When a girl reported that her father had forced her to marry without her consent, the Prophet (peace be upon him) gave her the choice, either to accept the marriage or to choose to invalidate it. (Narrated by Ahmad)

In another version of this hadith, the girl said "Actually I accept this marriage but I wanted to let women know that parents have no right (to force a husband on them.)" (Narrated by Ibn Majah)

Abu Hurairah quoted the Prophet as saying, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her, and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." (Narrated by Al-Bukhari)

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47464 At my desk.	Re: Islam and Australian values Reply #126 - Aug 29^th, 2008 at 4:15pm Does that mean you don't need a matron's permission? Does Islam have any rules regarding the social pressure on young girls to accept an arranged marriage?
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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #127 - Aug 29^th, 2008 at 4:35pm

Quote:

Does that mean you don't need a matron's permission?

As far as I'm aware the right to accept or refuse is extended to all people.

Quote:

Does Islam have any rules regarding the social pressure on young girls to accept an arranged marriage?

I just showed the hadith which clearly state it's not allowed to force a girl to marry.

How can Islam have rules regarding social pressure? When social pressure is generally something that acts outside rules, establishing it's own? The law is the law, and when Islam is the ruling system, it is able to assert itself via it's laws. Simple as that.

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freediver

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #128 - Aug 29^th, 2008 at 4:57pm

Consent is pretty meaningless when it concerns a child acting against the wishes of a parent. So is a law that requires the consent of a child bride. I'm sure that Islam, like all religions, contains plenty of rules that, although they cannot be legally enforced, guide people in these situations. Or is Islam limited to laws as they can be legally enforced?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #129 - Aug 29^th, 2008 at 11:54pm

listen freediver, I don't know what you want, but that's the law in Islam, it's not allowed for anyone to force someone into marriage. Since Islam isn't even implemented as law today, arguing over it is moot.

You ask a question, when you're given the answer you retort "But nobody will listen to the law"... if you didn't wanna hear the answer, don't ask the question, just continue on in your deluded little fantasy world in which Islam prescribes everything evil and the west is the bastion of goodness.

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jordan484

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #130 - Aug 30^th, 2008 at 6:40am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 29^th, 2008 at 11:54pm:

just continue on in your deluded little fantasy world in which Islam prescribes everything evil and the west is the bastion of goodness.

At least he balances out your deluded little fantasy world in which the west prescribes everything evil and Islam is the bastion of goodness.

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"We should always say that I may refrain from publishing a cartoon of the Prophet Mohammed, but it's because I fear you. Don't for one moment think it's because I respect you." Richard Dawkins

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freediver

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #131 - Aug 30^th, 2008 at 10:31am

MY question is about what it means to 'force' a child. A parent can get a child to agree to just about anything, even if it isn't in the child's interest. When the entire community is behind the parents, a child can have very little real choice. Does consent merely involve the child publicly accepting the arranged marriage?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #132 - Aug 30^th, 2008 at 11:17am

Quote:

A parent can get a child to agree to just about anything, even if it isn't in the child's interest. When the entire community is behind the parents, a child can have very little real choice

Any similar law in any other system can be reduced to the same pathetically irrelevant argument...

How about you refocus your energies in the Setting the record straight thread... what were you talking about there, was it pre-Islamic Arabs or something?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47464 At my desk.	Re: Islam and Australian values Reply #133 - Aug 30^th, 2008 at 1:21pm Any similar law in any other system can be reduced to the same pathetically irrelevant argument... How about the laws that forbid parents from selling off their daughters to dirty old men as soon as they hit puberty? How about the community values that stand in the way of arranged marriages for young girls?
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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #134 - Aug 30^th, 2008 at 1:44pm

Quote:

How about the laws that forbid parents from selling off their daughters to dirty old men as soon as they hit puberty?

You asked for the Islamic law regarding it, I told you what it is. You didn't like that it wasn't what you expected so you become hyper-argumentative and try to clutch at any straw to attack Islam.

It's also quite obvious that your reference to how societies view this and pressure their maturing girls, is based on the post-Islamic societies of today that are 80 years removed the Islamic laws and systems.

Perhaps if you weren't so presumptuous about Islam in the first place, you wouldn't feel so disappointed when you realise that the point you want to use to denigrate Islam doesn't actually exist. Then you wouldn't need to clutch for your proverbial straws to try and maintain your position in the discussion.

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