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Islam and Australian values (Read 35654 times)
Malik Shakur
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #105 - Jul 6th, 2008 at 11:19pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
What is Islamic law regarding music, alcohol, marijuana and other drugs?

There is a difference of opinion on this issue, some hold that singing is forbidden, some hold that musical instruments are forbidden and singing is ok providing the content is good, some hold that one particular percussion instrument is acceptable at weddings and other festivities and others hold that both musical instruments and singing is acceptable providing the message inside the songs are not perverted. Any intoxitant is forbidden in Islam.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
What is the penalty under Islam for apostasy?

Depends who you ask. Some say that leaving Islam is punishable by death and will be punished by God in the next life and others say that leaving Islam is not punishable in this life but will be punishable in the next life.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
Only in a nominal sense. Christianity is a religion, not a system of government. When you try to extend it to a system of government, it doesn't work very well. Saying that Christians should live under Christian law doesn't make sense because there is no 'Christian law' in the same way there is Islamic law.

I would disagree, look at the vatican and the empires ruled by the pope.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
What about atheists and non-abrahamic religions?

That's a great question, I'm not quite sure, but the Hindus lived under the Islamic State for quite some time.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
The only problem with these states is that they didn't make provisions in their teachings or holy books for people of other faiths

No, that is not the only problem in trying to figure out what 'Christian law' is.
There is Christian law, look at the vatican and roman catholocism and also orthodox religions etc.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
Do those other Muslims distinguish between elections and referendums?

I'd say that would depend on the issue that is being voted on actually. Some might vote in other circumstances.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
re: coups and conquests. I know you said before you would simply vote in a theocracy. But technically Islam forbids democracy. Abu responded to this by giving the example of Muhammed's method, which seems to be the unification of warring tribes into an Islamic state. Obviously that model is pretty useless when it comes to a state that already exists. Is there a 'policy vacuum' in Islamic law on this issue?

The people of Yathrib voted in an Islamic State actually, that was the first Islamic State.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
I've told you it's referring to a situation where people had committed treason, they had apostated also but their crime was treason.

When you were responding to sprint's previous 'out of context' quotes you would quote the entire passage and/or explain the translational issues. can you do the same for that quote? It just seems so self-contained that it is hard to imagine anything preceding it that would change it's meaning.

I'll need to research more into it for you my friend and then I can.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
I'm not so sure it does protect those rights. It seems to have done a better job of protecting minorities than Europe. But that is only a small part of the rights I am interested in. Obviously separation of church and state alone does not achieve anything, but is part of the doctrine of separation of powers (including the media, police, the courts etc) that makes democracy work. Centralisation of power makes tyranny inevitable.  


But within an Islamic State there are separation of powers also. That's why it's possible to take the Caliph to court if they've done the wrong thing.

So that isn't necessarily something which is only in a democracy, it's also in other systems actually. Democracy is actually a bit different, it means that the people have the ability to legislate the laws according to their own lusts and wants.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #106 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 12:02am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
In fact that has been proven by previous Islamic States, just because Christian and Jewish states don't work properly it doesn't implicate the Islamic State.

I'm not using Europe to show that Islamic states don't work. But I do think that Islamic states are doomed to fail for very similar reasons, and have done so.
Not really, it failed because of the wars and subversion instigated by the West


freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
Yes, but this is depending on the tax. Some have set values, the others have different values. The Islamic Taxation system is very complex.

Can you give a few examples? I'll lose interest once it gets too complicated.

Wow, I wouldn't know where to start. It's very complex. Any particular topics you want to know about?

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
It would certainly be less than Australian tax rates, Australian tax rates are oppressive and illogical and discourages production.

We obviously don't think so. I personally support a reduction in the total burden as a lot is getting wasted. But I wouldn't go as far as the example set by the US. How does Islam fit into that picture? Is it more extreme than the US?

Free market capitalism but regulated. As I mentioned, from my understanding it's similar to the Austrian school of economics.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
from Mozz:

It is a long and circular argument you offer that chooses to ignore some Hadith's and ambiguously interpret others. You state the reason for a death penalty is only treason, but that is open to the interpretation that any who choose to merely leave Islam, if they ever speak out against Islam, are in fact guilty of treason, by seeking to weaken Islam, by their verbal attacks, so any apostate is either sentenced to death outright, or forced to live in fear that any thing he says about Islam may be used to impose a death penalty at any time in his life.

Is that true Malik? Is merely criticising Islam treasonous? Can Islam justify misleading the Australian people so as to achieve 'reconciliation'?

Not true at all. Many people at the time of the prophet pbuh, his closest companions questioned his judgement and criticised.. They weren't considered treasonous.

Also no, the reconciliation I referred to is different to that you are referring to.

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
Malik:

not really.. if it was islamic law to kill apostates i wouldn't hesitate to state that.. i fear God and not the opinion of non Muslims so what do i have to fear from you?

Why won't you say what the penalty for apostasy actually is?

I answered this one just a bit above

freediver wrote on Jul 6th, 2008 at 10:40pm:
There is a big difference of opinion amongst muslims about the issue of apostacy and whether simply changing one's religion is punishable by death or whether it must come down to someone outwardly going against the state and trying to be subversive in addition to leaving islam..

Interesting. So many Muslims believe apostasy is punishable by death? Could you estimate a percentage? Is it based on that quote that you insist has been taken out of context?

No I couldn't estimate it. I think it's based on some certain hadiths that cause that opinion.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #107 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 4:16pm
 
What is Islamic law regarding proselytising, especially for other religions?

What is Islamic law regarding divorce?

On music, can you quote the bits in the Koran that lead some to consider music to be illegal?

On the issue of Apostasy, is there anything in the Koran on which the hadith calling for the death penalty is based?

Are taxes based primarily on consumption, income, or trade tariffs?

What is the penalty for rape?

I would disagree, look at the vatican and the empires ruled by the pope.

So Christians would be required to live under Vatican law or its equivalent, rather than secular democracy?

Any intoxitant is forbidden in Islam.

What about caffeine, nicotine, etc? What is the punishment for drinking, smoking pot, etc?

But within an Islamic State there are separation of powers also. That's why it's possible to take the Caliph to court if they've done the wrong thing.

I suspect that it is only in a nominal sense. Separating the courts from the government is only a small part of the separation of church and state. Such a nominal separation is unlikely to be maintained in practice, given the tendency for concentration of power.

Not really, it failed because of the wars and subversion instigated by the West

Why is it that it was so easy for the west to Subvert Islam? They aren't physically occupying the middle east most of the time. Why is it so hard to overthrow the oppressors that were set up? Europeans frequently turned on their home grown leaders when they got too oppressive and chopped their heads off. I can't imagine them putting up with a puppet government set up by foreigners from a different religion for very long. Ignoring Iraq and Afghanistan in the current situation, what is holding back the middle eastern Muslims from forming a righteous Caliphate again?

Not true at all. Many people at the time of the prophet pbuh, his closest companions questioned his judgement and criticised.. They weren't considered treasonous

But that was before the closure of the gates of ijtihad.



Some interestintg stuff about the Ottoman empire. I assume Abu and malik consider it to be an Islamic state, and would want something similar set up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

The Ottomans practiced a system in which the state had control over the clergy

The rapidly expanding empire used loyal, skilled subjects to manage the Empire, whether Albanians, Phanariot Greeks, Armenians, Serbs, Bosniaks, Hungarians or others. The incorporation of Greeks (and other Christians), Muslims, and Jews revolutionized its administrative system.

Slavery in the Ottoman Empire was a part of Ottoman society.[31] As late as 1908 women slaves were still sold in the Empire.[32] During the 19th century the Empire came under pressure from Western European countries to outlaw the practice. Policies developed by various Sultans throughout the 19th century attempted to curtail the slave trade but, since slavery did have centuries of religious backing and sanction, they could never directly abolish the institution outright — as had gradually happened in Western Europe and the Americas.

The Ottoman Empire was, in principle, tolerant towards Christians and Jews (the "Ahl Al-Kitab", or "People of the Book", according to the Qu'ran) but not towards the polytheists, in accordance with the Sharia law. Such tolerance was subject to a non-Muslim tax, the Jizya.

Law:

Ottoman legal system accepted the Religious law over its subjects. The Ottoman Empire was always organized around a system of local jurisprudence. Legal administration in the Ottoman Empire was part of a larger scheme of balancing central and local authority.[42] Ottoman power revolved crucially around the administration of the rights to land, which gave a space for the local authority develop the needs of the local millet.[42] The jurisdictional complexity of the Ottoman Empire was aimed to permit the integration of culturally and religiously different groups.[42] The Ottoman system had three court systems: one for Muslims, one for non-Muslims, involving appointed Jews and Christians ruling over their respective religious communities, and the "trade court". The entire system was regulated from above by means of the administrative Kanun, i.e. laws, a system based upon the Turkic Yasa and Töre which were developed in the pre-Islamic era. The kanun law system, on the other hand, was the secular law of the sultan, and dealt with issues not clearly addressed by the sharia system.

These court categories were not, however, wholly exclusive in nature: for instance, the Islamic courts — which were the Empire's primary courts — could also be used to settle a trade conflict or disputes between litigants of differing religions, and Jews and Christians often went to them so as to obtain a more forceful ruling on an issue. The Ottoman state tended not to interfere with non-Muslim religious law systems, despite legally having a voice to do so through local governors. The Islamic Sharia law system had been developed from a combination of the Qur'ān; the Hadīth, or words of the prophet Muhammad; ijmā', or consensus of the members of the Muslim community; qiyas, a system of analogical reasoning from previous precedents; and local customs. Both systems were taught at the Empire's law schools, which were in Constantinople and Bursa.
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« Last Edit: Jul 12th, 2008 at 3:04pm by freediver »  

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #108 - Jul 12th, 2008 at 6:01pm
 
What is Islamic law regarding blasphemy?

Does the four witnesses thing apply to rape?

According to this site, there is no mention of stoning in the Koran:

http://stop-stoning.org/node/9

How much land did Muhammed obtain for his caliphate through military conquest and how much through some kind of agreement?



http://www.geocities.com/muslimfreethinkers/jews_islam.htm

The Dhimmi

Still, as "People of the Book," Jews (and Christians) are protected under Islamic law. The traditional concept of the "dhimma" ("writ of protection") was extended by Muslim conquerors to Christians and Jews in exchange for their subordination to the Muslims. Peoples subjected to Muslim rule usually had a choice between death and conversion, but Jews and Christians, who adhered to the Scriptures, were allowed as dhimmis (protected persons) to practice their faith. This "protection" did little, however, to insure that Jews and Christians were treated well by the Muslims. On the contrary, an integral aspect of the dhimma was that, being an infidel, he had to openly acknowledge the superiority of the true believer--the Muslim.

In the early years of the Islamic conquest, the "tribute" (or jizya), paid as a yearly poll tax, symbolized the subordination of the dhimmi. Later, the inferior status of Jews and Christians was reinforced through a series of regulations that governed the behavior of the dhimmi. Dhimmis, on pain of death, were forbidden to mock or criticize the Koran, Islam or Muhammad, to proselytize among Muslims or to touch a Muslim woman (though a Muslim man could take a non­Muslim as a wife).

Dhimmis were excluded from public office and armed service, and were forbidden to bear arms. They were not allowed to ride horses or camels, to build synagogues or churches taller than mosques, to construct houses higher than those of Muslims or to drink wine in public. They were not allowed to pray or mourn in loud voices-as that might offend the Muslims. The dhimmi had to show public deference toward Muslims-always yielding them the center of the road. The dhimmi was not allowed to give evidence in court against a Muslim, and his oath was unacceptable in an Islamic court. To defend himself, the dhimmi would have to purchase Muslim witnesses at great expense. This left the dhimmi with little legal recourse when harmed by a Muslim.(4)

Dhimmis were also forced to wear distinctive clothing. In the ninth century, for example, Baghdad's Caliph al­Mutawakkil designated a yellow badge for Jews, setting a precedent that would be followed centuries later in Nazi Germany.



If Islam permits the marriage of prepubescent girls, where are the guidelines on sex with them?

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/JenniferKing50718.htm

The law ordering pedophilia is in chapter 65, entitled ‘The Divorce’ and qualified by Islamic law, which is based on the sunnah, the ‘perfect example’ of Muhammad recorded in the hadiths, traditions. The context deals with the issue of the waiting period for divorce, and remarriage. The Quran orders Muslim men to wait a period of three months in the case of women who either are no longer menstruating or haven’t yet started their menstrual cycles.  

I found where sprint quoted this previously, but I couldn;t find the response to it:

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

What do these passages refer to?

http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/heaven.html

Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.

Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.

Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
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are we a peace loving society?
Reply #109 - Jul 29th, 2008 at 6:28pm
 
I posted about Malik's legal threat on the aussie muslims forum. I got this interesting response. Note, 3 days later and no-one has criticised this person for promoting violence in the name of Islam. I agree with the bloke who said it is up to Muslims to correct the 'false' perceptions that most westerners have of them. This would have been a good opportunity to do so.

http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24647&page=2

Being patient with it and accepting people are just losing the plot in this world is my way of dealing with it, but it depends like i said.
If some one said something about Allah i would (if there were no security cameras or way of getting caught) open a big can of roundhouses to the head, after expalining Allah is knower of all and if i didnt hurt you i would be guilty of not fighting for His cause, so please stop it, then if they dont stop, bombardment of flying fists and kicks.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #110 - Jul 29th, 2008 at 9:56pm
 
Quote:
Being patient with it and accepting people are just losing the plot in this world is my way of dealing with it, but it depends like i said.
If some one said something about Allah i would (if there were no security cameras or way of getting caught) open a big can of roundhouses to the head, after expalining Allah is knower of all and if i didnt hurt you i would be guilty of not fighting for His cause, so please stop it, then if they dont stop, bombardment of flying fists and kicks.


This could be an aberration FD - possibly a Muslim version of IQSRLOW?

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Re: are we a peace loving society?
Reply #111 - Jul 29th, 2008 at 10:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 29th, 2008 at 6:28pm:
Being patient with it and accepting people are just losing the plot in this world is my way of dealing with it, but it depends like i said.
If some one said something about Allah i would (if there were no security cameras or way of getting caught) open a big can of roundhouses to the head, after expalining Allah is knower of all and if i didnt hurt you i would be guilty of not fighting for His cause, so please stop it, then if they dont stop, bombardment of flying fists and kicks.


What's your point about what he said FD?

You obviously don't know what type of people tend to be the majority on aussiemuslims.com don't you?

If you think you've seen harsh stuff there, then you should read some of the stuff on there that's been said about me  Grin Grin Grin
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Re: are we a peace loving society?
Reply #112 - Jul 30th, 2008 at 12:07am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on Jul 29th, 2008 at 10:01pm:
You obviously don't know what type of people tend to be the majority on aussiemuslims.com don't you?

If you think you've seen harsh stuff there, then you should read some of the stuff on there that's been said about me  Grin Grin Grin


There are thugs in all societies.
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...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #113 - Jul 30th, 2008 at 2:37pm
 
It's not the comment itself that caught my attention, but the lack of response it got from other members. I've been on some pretty hostile forums in my time. Some of the most hostile are the local fishing forums. But even they make a token effort at rebuking anyone who promotes violence, even if they only jsutify it out of self interest.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #114 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 6:02pm
 
Here's some more 'interesting' comments. One member, out of many who responded to other issues, criticised some of the absurd claims:

http://www.aussiemuslims.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24647&page=4

I believe in the protocols of the elders of zion for two reasons, 1) all that is outlined in them has been done and/or is being done. 2) its the Jews that deny their authenticity but can you really expect anything less? of course they are going to deny it. Jews are world class liars and I have had this proved to me many many times.
The Jews do control the majority of the world and they have their goals and means in play right now. The Jews maintain that the holocaust took place but evidence shows that it didn't and that no 6 million Jews were exterminated.There was no extermination program in WWII. Official population records show there was in fact more Jews in the world after WWII than before it. The Nazi party has been made out to be an evil institution for 70 years but its just not true. All the stories we hear about it is allied and Jewish propaganda.Nothing more!

Yes, I believe the US government is 100% responsible for the 911 attacks.




Tattoo's aren't proof of extermination, they are proof that the National Socialists kept tract of their prisoners.

There is EVEN Jews who say the holocaust is a lie and that there was no extermination program.

I know the Holoco$t is a myth for a FACT, I've read enough evidence to know it 100%. I don't aim to convince you of this fact but I do ask you to keep an open mind about it and research it for yourself.

Google is you friend.



Actually, most serial killers are black men, although you don't hear about this in the biased media.
Heres just a few:

1. Matthew Emanuel Macon (Murdered and Raped 5 White Women in Lansing)
2. Jimmie Reed (Murdered his wife and his 2 month old daughter and set them on fire)
3. Shelly Brooks (Murdered 7 prostitutes in Detroit Cass Corridor)
4. Justin Blackshere (Stabbed two white cooks at Cheli’s Chili downtown Detroit)
5. Jervon Miguel Coleman (Murdered three people.)
6. Donell Ramon Johnson (Murdered a mother and a daughter)
7. Brian Ranard Davis (6 women known murdered by black person)
8. Paul Durousseau (Seven women)
9. Mark Goudeau “The Baseline Killer” (Eight women and a man in 2005-2006)
10. Coral Eugene Watts (Found Guilty of Killing 11 women in TX & 1 in MI. Suspected of Murdering Over 100 Women)
11. Anthony McKnight (Five girls and young women)
12. Derrick Todd Lee (8 Women)
13. Charles Lendelle Carter (4 known murders; admits to ‘hunting’ Atlantans for 15 years!)
14. The Zebra Killings (71 White people)
15. Chester Turner (L.A.s most prolific killer 12 women killed.)
16. Lorenzo J. Gilyard (Kansas City, MO.—13 victims)
17. Eugene Victor Britt (Gary, IN.–3 known murder/rapes.)
18. Reginald and Jonathan Carr (The Wichita Massacre–6 Whites murdered)
19. Ray Joseph Dandridge and his uncle, Ricky Gevon Gray (Richmond, VA.–Murdered 7 people in 7 days, including an entire White family.)
20. The Tinley Park Murderer (Suspect hasn’t been found but has been described as black - murdered 5 women in a store.)
21. Henry Louis Wallace (Raped and strangled 5 women to death.)
22. Charles Johnston (Murdered 3 unarmed white men in hospital)
23. Craig Price (Brutally murdered 3 women)
24. Harrison Graham (Brually Murdered 3 women)
25. Charles Lee “Cookie” Thornton (Murdered 6 Whites at the Kirkwood, MO. city council. )
26. & 27. Darnell Hartsfeld & Romeo Pinkerton (Abducted and Murdered 5 from a restaurant)
28 &29. John Allen Muhammad & Lee Boyd Malvo (Sniped 11 people from a car in DC, 9 died.)
30. George Russell (3 women, WA state)
31. Timothy W. Spencer (5 killed, Arlington, VA and Richmond, VA)
32. Elton M. Jackson (12 gay men killed, Norfolk, VA area)
33. Carlton Gary (3 killed in Columbus, GA)
34. Mohammed Adam Omar (16 women, Yemen. Omar is Sudanese.)
35. Kendall Francois (8 women, Poughkeepsie, NY and surrounding areas.)
36. Terry A. Blair (8 women, Kansas City area)
37. Wayne Williams (33 many of them children!, Atlanta, GA)
38. Vaughn Greenwood (11 killed in LA)
39. Andre Crawford (10 killed in Chicago - southside)
40. Calvin Jackson (9 killed possibley more in NY)
41. Gregory Klepper (killed 8, Chicago – southside)
42. Alton Coleman (Killed 8 in the Midwest)
43. Harrison Graham (killed 7+ in N. Philadelphia)
44. Cleophus Prince (6 killed in, San Diego
45. Robert Rozier (7 killed in, Miami)
46. Maurice Byrd (killed 20 + in St. Louis)
47. Maury Travis (17 and rising, St. Louis and possibly also Atlanta)
48. Hulon Mitchell, a.k.a. Yahweh Ben Yahweh (killed 20+ in Florida)
49. Lorenzo Fayne (killed 5 children in East St. Louis, IL)
50. Paul Durousseau, (killed 6, two of which were pregnant women, Jacksonville, FL; Georgia.)
51. Eddie Lee Mosley (killed 25 to 30 women, south Florida)
52. Henry Lee Jones (killed 4 in, south Florida; Bartlett, TN)
53. Richard “Babyface” Jameswhite (15 killed in, New York; Georgia.)
54. Donald E. Younge, Jr. (killed 4), East St. Louis, IL; Salt Lake City, UT.
55. Ivan Hill (killed 6 in Los Angeles area).
56. Michael Vernon (Bronx, NY. Killed at least seven people - )
57. Chester Dewayne Turner (12 women killed in, Los Angeles
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #115 - Aug 4th, 2008 at 7:14pm
 
freediver,

Either you're being deceptive, or you just didn't read enough from AussieMuslims, but the person who posted that is not a Muslim. Their name is Dana right? Go and search that person's posts, they are a non-Muslim member of AussieMuslims.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #116 - Aug 5th, 2008 at 7:46am
 
freediver,

Quote:
Abu responded to this by giving the example of Muhammed's method, which seems to be the unification of warring tribes into an Islamic state.


Actually I never claimed his methodogoly was to unite warring tribes. That was one of the outcomes of his coup in Madinah, but was certainly not his methodolgy. His methodology could be described as seeking the consent and support (Arabic: Nusrah, meaning help/victory in the same word) of the influential people within the society to embrace Islam and provide support and power to Islam and to the movement for the coup.

This is what he did, he approached various rulers all over Arabia and offered them Islam in return for their support of the establishment of an Islamic political entity, many foolishly declined. Finally the very wise people of Yathrib (now known as Madinah) accepted Islam and pledged that support, and their city became one of the most famous in all history.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #117 - Aug 11th, 2008 at 12:49pm
 
Some unanswered questions in the above two posts:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1215058243/107#107

Also, an old question: what is the punishment for indecent exposure?

My thread got deleted from Aussie Muslims.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #118 - Aug 11th, 2008 at 1:08pm
 
I am not aware of any physical punishment, but anyone exposing themselves in an Islamic Caliphate would definitely be forced to cover their nakedness. I don't really think it was ever that big an issue in the history of the Caliphate. As contrary to some claims, exhibitionism is not a sickness that is widespread amongst human beings, it's just in some strange cultures it's become some kind of weird fetish.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #119 - Aug 11th, 2008 at 5:47pm
 
I'm not sure what black serial killers have to do with Holocaust deniers and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Huh
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