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Islam and Australian values (Read 9758 times)
freediver
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Islam and Australian values
Jul 3rd, 2008 at 2:10pm
 
This came up in the secular moral code thread. I thought I would start a new thread so as not to hijack it.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1214870370/28#28

Questions for Abu and Malik: What is Islamic law regarding pedophilia and homosexuality? Does it accept higher societal standards or tolerance? Would you support different standards to what Islam teaches you? Can something be wrong or immoral, even if the Koran does not describe it as such?



Both are considered illegal practises and are capital offenses under Islamic law.

Can you be more specific? How do you judge whether pedophilia has been committed? Is it OK to be a homosexual, provided you don't actually have sex?

Does Islam compel you to lobby for capital punishment for gays and pedophiles? What other crimes?

Islam prohibits vigilantism, and we definitely do not condone attempting to clandestinely implement our law in a non-Islamic state. This is a matter that is often confused and misconstrued in the media.

Earlier, Malik claimed to support secular democracy, but when questioned further he said he would vote against it. Is it clandestine to publicly declare your support for something up until you are able to change it to what you really want?

I believe in Islam, so no I don't support different standards. However, since we do not live under an Islamic government, we must live by different laws. The two should not be confused.

How does this work? Is a gay Muslim allowed to have sex with other men if the local law allows it?

Also, how hard does Islam say you should work towards changing laws? Should you write to the media and encourage people to (legally) execute gays?



An interesting and relevant comment on another thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1214785726/30#30

Malm, I apologise if you are offended. But the fact remains that people on this forum tend to shoot first and ask questions later regarding Islam so I clarified that the behaviour was unislamic as is my duty in Islam.
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« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2008 at 6:45pm by freediver »  

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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #1 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 1:24am
 
Quote:
Can you be more specific? How do you judge whether pedophilia has been committed?


I'm no legal scholar, so I couldn't really give you the fine details. However, any sexual activity outside of marriage is considered illegal. Since nobody can be married prior to attaining puberty, then any sexual activity with a minor (that is, someone who hasn't attained puberty) would be considered illegal.

Quote:
Is it OK to be a homosexual, provided you don't actually have sex?


Islam does not recognise any such category of people as "homosexuals". Islam recognise thress classes of people, male, female and mukhaneth, those whose sex is ambigious. There are certain laws pertaining to them, and their condition is just considered a medical abnormality. However they are not what I think you refer to as homosexuals. What you mean is people who choose, yes they do choose, to engage in illegal sexual activities with members of the same sex. Such perversions were quite rare under Islamic rule, as the society was one which was conducive to people experiencing normal and healthy relationships within the confines of marriage. I know you're going to tell me "No, at all periods of time, they've existed in all societies in roughly the same proportions" etc. but this is just nonsense. There are very few cases of it ever being discovered in Islamic societies, and the records of punishment for it are few and far between. It existed in the fantasies of orientalists, that's about it.

I guess Islam would consider those who've experienced an urge towards such activities to be the victims of temptations from the devil, and that like any other temptation, it is a test for them, to see if they resist and pursue the correct path, or take the path of illegal and destructive activities.

Quote:
Does Islam compel you to lobby for capital punishment for gays and pedophiles? What other crimes?


Islam doesn't really compel Muslims to lobby for anything. We can lobby for our rights if we like, but as for lobbying for something like that, what would be the point? It's all through the media and in popular culture everwyehre. It is encouiraged a lot amongst society, so what would be the point in asking for capital punishment for it? Is it just to punish for something which is so heavily encouraged in society anyway? It just doesn't make sense. Your whole question actually doesn't make sense, it just seems to be worded in some half baked attempt to implicate Muslims as fanatics wanting to implement an out of place law in this society. Please make your questions at least half sensible.

Islam is a wholistic system, just picking one of it's punishments and applying it out of context, and out of place, in a society which doesn't even implement the most basic tenets that Islam relies upon is just a ludicrous idea.

Quote:
Is it clandestine to publicly declare your support for something up until you are able to change it to what you really want?


I am not speaking for Malik specifically, as I really don't know him enouigh to know how he thinks. But amongst Muslims generally there is a lot of confusion surrounding concepts lioke secularism and democracy, and this is quite a deliberate thing. The West has installed, and continues to fund and openly support the most brutal dictatorships in the Muslim countries, whilst at the same time, has also supported their opposition, although only through empty talk. So they've propagated these ideas that "Democracy is the opposite of what you live under now, you live under tyrrany, you need democracy, you live in poverty, you need democracy".

Also a lot of Muslims, even intelligent, educated Muslims mistake the word democracy to mean "popular election of a ruler", when it fact this not the case at all. This misconception obviously occurs because Islam has had a system of popular election (called bay'ah) of the ruler for well over 1350 years now, although it wasn't implemented that often, it was part of the model of the Caliphate that the early Caliphs established, although not the only means of appointing a ruler they implemented.

As for secularism, I don't know how anyone could mistake secularism for being in any way compatible with Islam, as it is clearly not.

Quote:
How does this work? Is a gay Muslim allowed to have sex with other men if the local law allows it?


Allowed by who? If you mean is it allowed under Australian law, I think you know the answer to that. In Islam it is, as I've mentioned an abhorrent crime, and is therefore strictly forbidden. There's no such things as a "gay muslim" because believing yourself to be "gay" means that you reject Islam as a belief system. Anyone who considers homosexuality to be a valid lifestyle, would've taken themselves outside of the fold of Islam, and would not be a Muslim.

Quote:
Also, how hard does Islam say you should work towards changing laws? Should you write to the media and encourage people to (legally) execute gays?


I've already addressed this point for you in another thread, search for the word vigilantism. Although I'm pretty sure you read it, and you're just trying to be provocative. Please, stick to rational discussion, if I wanted to listen to mindless sensationalism, I'd open a paper or turn on the idiot box.

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #2 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 1:42am
 
Sorry Abu, but you are deluding yourself even more than usually, if you really believe homosexuality is excluded from muslim societies.

They may be muslims, but before they were muslim they were human, and just like islam, you can only leave that state via death, and homosexuality has been a part of human nature as far back as recorded history.

Arabs even have a saying;
"If you want convenience, use a goat,
If you want a child, use your wife,
If you want pleasure, use a boy"

You have probably heard it befors, and it probably started out a little humourously, but that only strengthens it's probability, as being reflective of the culture.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #3 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 1:56am
 
hmmm.. ok so lets take a look at it.

homosexuality as in a man having sexual preference and feelings for men over women is rare in the middle east, however men having sex with men and women having sex with women in places like saudi arabia isnt.

in fact, my friend went there a couple of years ago and alot of the times he'd go to a public toilet there were guys having sex in there..

that is not because guys prefer guys over women, but instead is because that is their only option because saudi arabia's segregation laws are excessive and unnatural. there's no other alternative for guys and girls there because they see no one of the opposite sex who isnt their family and then even when they do, they can't marry yet because parents want them to marry at the age of 25+ rather than letting them marry earlier.

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abu_rashid
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #4 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 2:00am
 
Quote:
if you really believe homosexuality is excluded from muslim societies.


There is no Islamic society today. The Islamic laws/system ceased being officially implemented on March 3rd. 1924. Since that time, there has been no society in the world living under Islamic law, and therefore no society which can be called Muslim. I believe, that in the 1350 years that Islamic society did exist, this behaviour was very rarely observed. And I challenge you to bring forth the historical evidence of it, if you can. And I don't want to see any sick orientalist fantasies about bored harems or Turkish baths, I want real statistics from Islamic courts etc. If you don't have the evidence, don't make the claims, as I'm sorry I can't accept your "projections" about what "should've" existed in all cultures since the beginning of time. this is unscientific nonsense.

Quote:
Arabs even have a saying


I've never heard that saying mate, I think you got it off your kiwi friends.

Almost every Arab I have met, if you actually said this to them in Arabic, you'd wanna be a fast runner.

Enough of the deluded fantasies please. If you wanna be taken seriously, bring forth something concrete.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #5 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 2:04am
 
furthermore, the punishment for having homosexual feelings is not the death penalty.

the death penalty applies when two conditions have been fulfilled.
1. the person committing the act is married
2. there are four witnesses to the event.

now lets think about that..

if someone does have gay sex in the privacy of their own homes, how on earth would there be four witnesses? there simply wouldn't be four witnesses because spying on people to get that kind of information is forbidden in islam.

the reason why the death penalty applies to having four witnesses is because for four witnesses to have seen it, it would mean that the people committing the act would have to be so blatantly arrogant so as to do the act in public in the view of others. if that's the case then they are forcing their own perversion on the rest of society and spreading fitnah in the land. thus the duty of care on the government is to keep the rest of society safe from such perversion and deter such behaviour by applying death by stoning.

if however the people do it in their own house, then it is between them and God and they will be punished by Him in the next life for their sins.

also, if i am not mistaken, if the person committing the sin is not married they will be punished as someone who fornicates which is 100 lashes i believe as they have not cheated on their partner.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #6 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 2:13am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 1:24am:
Allowed by who? If you mean is it allowed under Australian law, I think you know the answer to that. In Islam it is, as I've mentioned an abhorrent crime, and is therefore strictly forbidden. There's no such things as a "gay muslim" because believing yourself to be "gay" means that you reject Islam as a belief system. Anyone who considers homosexuality to be a valid lifestyle, would've taken themselves outside of the fold of Islam, and would not be a Muslim.

I'm sorry, but there is a difference of opinion on that issue.

If I drink and think it's ok to drink, it doesn't mean I'm not a Muslim. Someone should only be considered non-Muslim if they commit sins like shirkh or certain other crimes. Certainly an action like drinking or homosexuality is a sin, but doesn't take them out of the fold of Islam, it just means they aren't practicing Islam properly.

That is between them and God and they'll be punished for it. It's not for us as Muslims to call another person a non-Muslim because of sins like that because that is only for God to judge and I would discourage putting your own position in paradise in jeopardy by speculating or saying such things about others, because if you are wrong you are the one who will be considered non Muslim by God..

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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #7 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 7:30am
 
Sorry boys, but you really need to try NOYFBism, it requires far less mental stress for you, trying to remember what aspect of what teaching, is currently needing justification, and does it clash with previous teachings, phew! that must get tiresome.

Abu first, what would you know about arab sayings?
I was told that one by an egyptian.

Now you do make the perfect religious tool, because you will only believe Islamic sources, and the probability of muslim homosexuals having a gay pride march through mecca is pretty slim.
Don't forget the good old catch all, if they do that then they are not true muslims anyway.

Muslims are a lot like an old mate of mine, who was a confirmed pacifist, except when he was angry, sincere, but totally full of it.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #8 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:10am
 
So basically, when there's grass on the wicket, it's time to play cricket? But you have to marry first, or shortly after?

Such perversions were quite rare under Islamic rule

Just because you don't see it, you assume it is rare? that is absurd. Obviously if the penalty is death, they aren't going to parade it in front of everyone. Lack of statistical evidence is in no way evidence of absence of homosexuality, as you claimed. That is a simple logical fallacy.

It is encouiraged a lot amongst society, so what would be the point in asking for capital punishment for it? Is it just to punish for something which is so heavily encouraged in society anyway?

Well, obviously you would lobby for it to be discouraged first, before you start executing gays.

it just seems to be worded in some half baked attempt to implicate Muslims as fanatics wanting to implement an out of place law in this society

But that is what you would like to do, right? You just accept that, for the time being, it is unlikely to happen.

Islam has had a system of popular election (called bay'ah) of the ruler for well over 1350 years now

When was it last implimented?

As for secularism, I don't know how anyone could mistake secularism for being in any way compatible with Islam, as it is clearly not.

Well a lot of Muslims insist that their religion is not incompatable with Australian values and the Australian way of life. Are they lying? Or do they really think that theocracy is part of the Australian way of life?

I've already addressed this point for you in another thread, search for the word vigilantism.

Saying you oppose vigilantism does not answer the question at all. In fact I even quoted that comment in the first post. Ruling out vigilantism leaves a lot open in terms of how hard you should lobby to get gay people executed and allow you to marry 4 twelve year old girls.

Malik:

homosexuality as in a man having sexual preference and feelings for men over women is rare in the middle east, however men having sex with men and women having sex with women in places like saudi arabia isnt

Are you saying Saudi is not aprt of the middle east?

that is not because guys prefer guys over women, but instead is because that is their only option because saudi arabia's segregation laws are excessive and unnatural

Crap. If the penalty for homsexuality is death (as Abu claimed), then you can hardly argue that the law pushes men to it.

the death penalty applies when two conditions have been fulfilled.
1. the person committing the act is married
2. there are four witnesses to the event.


So homosexuality is legal in Islam provided you aren't married? Is that your solution to running out of women because the rich men have four wives?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #9 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:18am
 
Quote:
If I drink and think it's ok to drink, it doesn't mean I'm not a Muslim


Malik, I sincerely request that you speak with a person of knowledge about this. If someone drinks but knows he's doing haraam, that person is sinful, if someone drinks and believes drinking to be halaal then that person has perverted the shari'ah and his beliefs and aqeedah no longer match that of Islam, such a person, according to all 4 schools of fiqh has taken himself outside of Islam. You are correct that actions do not make someone a kaafir, but belief certainly does.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #10 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:37am
 
freediver,

Quote:
Just because you don't see it, you assume it is rare? that is absurd. Obviously if the penalty is death, they aren't going to parade it in front of everyone. Lack of statistical evidence is in no way evidence of absence of homosexuality, as you claimed. That is a simple logical fallacy.


The onus of proof is on the one making the claim. If you've claimed something exists, it's not up to me to prove an absence of it.

Quote:
Well, obviously you would lobby for it to be discouraged first, before you start executing gays.


You still seem oblivious to what I was saying. Islam is a wholistic system, if the 100% complete system is not implemented, there's absolutely no point campaigning for little fragments of it, which themselves depend on the whole system anyway. When Islam comes to Australia, it will come, it doesn't even exist in the Muslim lands, so what's the point in campaigning for it here? The whole concept is just absurd, again, please stop trying to mimic the media with sensationalist nonsense.

Quote:
But that is what you would like to do, right? You just accept that, for the time being, it is unlikely to happen


The punishment and legal system of Islam is one tiny little facet of it. What I'd like to see is Australians, en masse, embracing the belief system of Islam. Once this occurs, then the other stuff just naturally follows. Your claims that I am sitting back wanting to implement one little punishment for one segment of society is just rubbish, you're just wasting your time and mine.

I believe they are victims of this society which has in some way or another pushed them into an abnormal lifestyle (doesn't excuse them, they still make the choice, as do drug addicts etc). When the society begins to embrace Islam on a larger scale than it already is, such abnormalities will evaporate. They are a symptom of this sick society, not the root cause of it.

Quote:
When was it last implimented?


It was officially abolished in writing on March 3rd. 1924. But in reality it was about 15 years prior when the Committee of Union & Progress seized control of the Ottoman Caliphate and deposed the last truly independant Caliph and began implementing their own secular non-Islamic laws right across society.

Quote:
Well a lot of Muslims insist that their religion is not incompatable with Australian values and the Australian way of life.


Capitalism and Communism are incompatible ideologies, are you suggesting Australian Communist's and Socialist's way of life is incompatible with Australian lifestyle? Please your lines of argument are just ridiculous. Learn how to debate.

Quote:
Ruling out vigilantism leaves a lot open in terms of how hard you should lobby to get gay people executed and allow you to marry 4 twelve year old girls.


Implementing a legal punishment is the role of a state, it has nothing to do with individuals. I have no right to execute anyone, nor to lobby for anyone to be executed. This is what it means to reject the concept of vigilantism, to believe in the rule of law and the authority of the state, even if you don't agree 100% with the ideology of that state. I'm really not going to waste my time with anymore ridiculously loaded questions, which have already been answered anyway. If you want enlightened debate, then I'm ready, if you wanna just post drivel, find someone else to amuse you.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #11 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:54am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:10am:
Malik:

homosexuality as in a man having sexual preference and feelings for men over women is rare in the middle east, however men having sex with men and women having sex with women in places like saudi arabia isnt

Are you saying Saudi is not aprt of the middle east?


Perhaps you didn't understand what I said FD, if a man is only attracted to, has feelings of love and wants sex with only men in preference over women then that is homosexuality.

That is rare in the middle east, in the middle east in places like saudi arabia there are people who commit homosexual actions but do it because they have no ability to do it with women. they use a male as substitute. thus it is not homosexuality, just one committing homosexual acts.

freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:10am:
that is not because guys prefer guys over women, but instead is because that is their only option because saudi arabia's segregation laws are excessive and unnatural

Crap. If the penalty for homsexuality is death (as Abu claimed), then you can hardly argue that the law pushes men to it.



Of course it pushes men to it, even if the penalty is so high the hypocrisy by the laws and social practice give young men and women no alternative. what do you expect them to do when they are hormone filled youths who don't have contact with the opposite sex?

instead some have sex with the same sex to relieve themselves.
freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:10am:
the death penalty applies when two conditions have been fulfilled.
1. the person committing the act is married
2. there are four witnesses to the event.


So homosexuality is legal in Islam provided you aren't married? Is that your solution to running out of women because the rich men have four wives? 

don't put words in my mouth FD.

committing homosexual acts is forbidden in islam, undoubtedly..

although the punishment for one who commits it of death by stoning may only apply in situations when they are married because they are committing adultery, for those who are unmarried i believe the punishment is 100 lashes for fornication.

again i could be wrong and it could be death by stoning for both but thus far i haven't seen evidence pointing to the latter.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #12 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 12:05pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 11:18am:
Quote:
If I drink and think it's ok to drink, it doesn't mean I'm not a Muslim


Malik, I sincerely request that you speak with a person of knowledge about this. If someone drinks but knows he's doing haraam, that person is sinful, if someone drinks and believes drinking to be halaal then that person has perverted the shari'ah and his beliefs and aqeedah no longer match that of Islam, such a person, according to all 4 schools of fiqh has taken himself outside of Islam. You are correct that actions do not make someone a kaafir, but belief certainly does.


Yes, but if it's out of ignorance rather than knowing it's haram but saying it's halal?
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #13 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 12:06pm
 
The onus of proof is on the one making the claim.

Then re-read the thread. It is you who made the absurd claim about gays not existing in Islam, not me.

Islam is a wholistic system

Right, so as well as executing gays and being allowed to marry 4 eleven year old girls, you would want lots of other changes - changes that make executing gays seem reasonable?

if the 100% complete system is not implemented, there's absolutely no point campaigning for little fragments of it

So how would you go about making change? What would you change first? The fact that you would want other changes does not negate the fact that you would want gays executed.

it doesn't even exist in the Muslim lands, so what's the point in campaigning for it here?

First, a contradiction - if the lands are Muslim, doesn't that mean islam is there? Furthermore, doesn't Islam compel you to champion Islam whereever you are?

The whole concept is just absurd, again, please stop trying to mimic the media with sensationalist nonsense.

You are the one who suggested executing gays and being allowed to marry four eleven year old girls (wholistically of course) is a good idea, not me. I am not sensationalising it at all. I am just repeating what you tell me. If it sounds sensationalist, perhaps you need to look at your own beliefs.

Your claims that I am sitting back wanting to implement one little punishment for one segment of society

That is not what I am claiming. I obviously accept that you would also campaign to make murder illegal, etc. You seem to be implying that there is something wrong with asking specific questions. Why is that? Are you suggesting that executing gays will be a 'mere triviality' amongst all the other changes you wish for our society?

It was officially abolished in writing on March 3rd. 1924. But in reality it was about 15 years prior

So the middle east had democratically elected rulers up until then?

Capitalism and Communism are incompatible ideologies

Not true. Australia is a nominally capitalist society, but we embrace many aspects of socialism. Pure capitalism and pure socialism are incompatible because they are extreme opposite ends of a spectrum. However, few people adopt the purist view as their ideology. There is no chruch of capitalism, or church of communism.

are you suggesting Australian Communist's and Socialist's way of life is incompatible with Australian lifestyle?

The extreme communists, yes. I would hate to think of communists or socialists running this country. Socialism works fine in a family or small community setting, so the 'way of life' is not at odds with Australian values.

Implementing a legal punishment is the role of a state, it has nothing to do with individuals.

That's just absurd. The state is made up of individduals. Furthermore Islam promotes theocracy as the ultimate way of life. Saying it is up to the state and not you personally is a lame copout, because as an Australian citizen you have influence over the state. I am not asking whether you would personally execute gays when it was illegal, I am asking about whether you would support capital punishment for gays, which you apparently would. You just try to avoid admitting it.

I have no right to execute anyone, nor to lobby for anyone to be executed.

Yes you do have a right to lobby. I'm not sure why you don't realise this. As far as I can tell, you have an obligation under Islam to follow through with it as soon as you are able to.
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Re: Islam and Australian values
Reply #14 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 12:11pm
 
thus it is not homosexuality, just one committing homosexual acts.

I don't get the difference. How is it possible to have sex with other men if there is no attraction involved? How would they get an erection?

Of course it pushes men to it, even if the penalty is so high the hypocrisy by the laws and social practice give young men and women no alternative.

Why wouldn't they just ahve sex with women if they are breaking the law anyway?

what do you expect them to do when they are hormone filled youths who don't have contact with the opposite sex?

I've been to a male only boarding school. We did not have sex with each other. Maybe it is something to do with indoctrinating people into thinking they have no control over their sexual urges and that it is up to physical barriers rather than self control to stop orgies.

don't put words in my mouth FD.

I didn't. It was a question.

again i could be wrong and it could be death by stoning for both but thus far i haven't seen evidence pointing to the latter.

I would appreciate knowing the actual rule.
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