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Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial (Read 4023 times)
freediver
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Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:00pm
 
This is a good example of why it is sometimes necessary to limit speech to ensure a fair trial. This is often an issue with terrorism suspects and high profile criminals, because our stupid politicians want to score some cheap points by publicly attacking them.

Convicted sex offender Ferguson released

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/01/2291340.htm

Convicted Queensland child sex offender Dennis Raymond Ferguson has been released from custody.

Ferguson will not face another trial on child sex charges after a Brisbane judge ordered a permanent stay of proceedings.

Ferguson faced a District Court trial in Brisbane last year accused of molesting two young girls in their Dalby home in 2005.

He pleaded not guilty in the District Court in Brisbane last year, but the trial jury was dismissed after the Crown withdrew one of the charges because of insufficient evidence.

Ferguson was to face a new trial next week, but Judge Hugh Botting today ruled that Ferguson would not get a fair trial because of the publicity surrounding his previous convictions, which included numerous comments by state and federal politicians, and because the case against him was weak.

He also found that the two-and-a-half years Ferguson has already spent in custody would be likely to exceed the punishment he would receive if convicted.
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RecFisher
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #1 - Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:02pm
 
It wasn't mainly because "the case against him was weak"?
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #2 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:03am
 
ferguson has had a long history of child molestation.
he should have never been released last time.

the effects of molestation on a child are amongst the longest lasting of any crime.


The importance of guarding our children against repeat sex offenders should also be taken into account.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #3 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:13am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:03am:
ferguson has had a long history of child molestation.
he should have never been released last time.

the effects of molestation on a child are amongst the longest lasting of any crime.


The importance of guarding our children against repeat sex offenders should also be taken into account.

So, if you can prove he raped kids.. Don't let him out.. But don't make the tax payer pay for it.. Give him the death penalty.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #4 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:15am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:03am:
ferguson has had a long history of child molestation.
he should have never been released last time.

the effects of molestation on a child are amongst the longest lasting of any crime.


The importance of guarding our children against repeat sex offenders should also be taken into account.


Sprint is right, once cought child sex offenders should never be released, I know that sounds harsh but if somones choice of sexual partner is a child going to jail for two years is not going to change their feelings.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #5 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:30am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:03am:
ferguson has had a long history of child molestation.
he should have never been released last time.

the effects of molestation on a child are amongst the longest lasting of any crime.


The importance of guarding our children against repeat sex offenders should also be taken into account.


Yes, it's potentially self- perpetuating - a never ending chain of consequences. A victim is more likely to become a perpetrator later in life.  (but not necessarily)   

You break the cycle either by imprisoning for life or chemical castration. Death is a bit extreme. From our discussions of other threads, it's interesting how something like child sex goes from broadly acceptable to a social taboo worse than murder, in the space of 200 years.

I don't think the death penalty is appropriate for anything. What if he was later proved to be innocent?  Is it really just to sentence a person to death because they had their life screwed up during their childhood? Of course there has to be some individual culpability, but when you go to clear-cut absolute morality, there is no opportunity to weigh up the pros and cons of the individual case.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #6 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:36am
 
posting deleted due to implied request.
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« Last Edit: Jul 2nd, 2008 at 12:36pm by Sprintcyclist »  

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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #7 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 10:43am
 
Gee sprint, we nearly had a thread that wasn't about Islam. Lucky you were on the case.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #8 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 11:04am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 10:43am:
Gee sprint, we nearly had a thread that wasn't about Islam. Lucky you were on the case.


OCD will not permit. Hopefully not another doomed marriage. How ironic if it were damaged by obsession with Islam.

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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #9 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 4:39pm
 
Meanwhile back at the farm........

I have not read the Judgement yet, but it seems from media reports the District Court Judge found that the charges should not proceed because Ferguson could not get a fair trial, and.....note....and....because the case against him was weak.

So the ratio decidendi is this:

Cases may not be allowed to proceed in either of the following circumstances:

(a) no chance of a fair trial, or
(b) the prosecution case is weak.

Really, the District Court Judge is not breaking new ground in stating those principals.

It has always been the law that a prosecution will be stayed in the accused cannot get a fair trial.

It is a regular occurrence, at the commencement of a criminal trial for the defence to ask the Judge to consider whether he ought allow the case to proceed because of the lack of evidence, or weakness.  If the Judge agrees, he will indicate so, and the Prosecutor will ask for the return of the Indictment (the formal piece of paper upon which the charges are set out.)  The Judge's Associate (shoe cleaner and general odds body, slave for the Judge......s/he sits directly in front of the Judge usually) will physically take that piece of paper to the Prosecutor who will then write upon it, "The Crown will proceed no further on this Indictment," and he will sign it.  The Latin expression is 'nolle prosequi.'

Now, the real fun is......how will this affect the persecution of Dr Death - Jayant Patel?

Ho ho ho and a bottle of Rum!!!!!!
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #10 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 4:45pm
 
It is a regular occurrence

The weakness issue is, but not the fair trial issue. This issue also came up in the Henson child photo case, because Rudd thought it was a good idea to publicly declare that the images were not art, were disgusting etc. It also came up in the Hicks case, and also lead to the banning of the Underbelly TV series in Victoria.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #11 - Jul 2nd, 2008 at 7:17pm
 
muso wrote on Jul 2nd, 2008 at 9:30am:
Yes, it's potentially self- perpetuating - a never ending chain of consequences. A victim is more likely to become a perpetrator later in life.  (but not necessarily)    

You break the cycle either by imprisoning for life or chemical castration. Death is a bit extreme. From our discussions of other threads, it's interesting how something like child sex goes from broadly acceptable to a social taboo worse than murder, in the space of 200 years.

I don't think the death penalty is appropriate for anything. What if he was later proved to be innocent?  Is it really just to sentence a person to death because they had their life screwed up during their childhood? Of course there has to be some individual culpability, but when you go to clear-cut absolute morality, there is no opportunity to weigh up the pros and cons of the individual case.


I actually do agree with you in most cases there, but that application of such a sentence would be up to a judge. Judges today take all of that into consideration, especially regarding the possibility of someone being innocent and issues that happened in their life that prevented them from being able to function as regular people. It would be in cases where the judge finds no possible doubt of ones guilt and no real reason for their behaviour, ie if they had a normal upbringing and had every possible chance in life but instead committed the rape for fun. That is when such a penalty would be applicable.

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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #12 - Jul 3rd, 2008 at 11:41am
 
It would be in cases where the judge finds no possible doubt of ones guilt

As far as i know, guilty is guilty, regardless of how solid the evidence is. Judges are not given a mandate to judge varying levels of guilt. Once the jury reaches a verdict, then the quality of the evidence used to reach that verdict is no longer an issue in deciding the severity of the punishment.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #13 - Jul 3rd, 2008 at 2:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 3rd, 2008 at 11:41am:
It would be in cases where the judge finds no possible doubt of ones guilt

As far as i know, guilty is guilty, regardless of how solid the evidence is. Judges are not given a mandate to judge varying levels of guilt. Once the jury reaches a verdict, then the quality of the evidence used to reach that verdict is no longer an issue in deciding the severity of the punishment.


Maybe not the quality of the evidence, but mitigating circumstances and previous convictions are certainly taken into account by judges when handing down sentences in cases involving the criminal code.

Either that or your version of the law in Victoria is different from ours in Queensland. Maybe you have a background in Law. My only exposure has been from my experience as a JP.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #14 - Jul 3rd, 2008 at 3:09pm
 
Quote:
As far as i know, guilty is guilty, regardless of how solid the evidence is. Judges are not given a mandate to judge varying levels of guilt. Once the jury reaches a verdict, then the quality of the evidence used to reach that verdict is no longer an issue in deciding the severity of the punishment.


Absolutely 100% correct, and yes, Muso, I am a lawyer.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #15 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 3:05pm
 
As a psychologist who has worked in the field of child sexual abuse, I have to concur that the victims of such abuse have long standing, life destroying, and life threatening concequences to face.

This man is now being supported at tax payer expense, and we have gone so far as to pay$1000 a day to a "christian group", to "monitor him". How much is being spent on the victims of his abuse?

Whiel I cannot support the death penalty, I would want to see the man imprisoned for life, with access to the means of ending his life, voluntarily, should he wish.
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Re: Ferguson released - importance of a fair trial
Reply #16 - Jul 9th, 2008 at 3:48pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jul 3rd, 2008 at 3:09pm:
Absolutely 100% correct, and yes, Muso, I am a lawyer.


OK, but I was talking about the seriousness of the offense and mitigating circumstances.

In summing up, it's the Constitution, it's Mabo, it's justice, it's law, it's the vibe, and, uh ... No, that's it. It's the vibe.

(Makes a note not to make any lawyer jokes. )  Grin
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