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a secular moral code (Read 23776 times)
muso
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #60 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 8:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 4th, 2008 at 12:13pm:
Helian, I think that prejudice leads people to vastly overestimate the risk involved in walking past a somali. The moralistic and the risk assessment approach are not contradictory. The immoral behaviour also makes no sense from a risk management presepective.


I agree. Incidentally, my jibe about the old lady with the dog was meant as a gentle rebuke against my Sister in Law's prejudice. I would regard it as an irrational prejudice or even an irrational fear. I find that humour sometimes works well against such things.

I think we need to strive towards making risk based decisions, based on rational concepts of risk, but we also need to retain a sense of fun. 

For example when somebody that I don't know phones me up and asks me "How are you today" in a certain well-rehearsed tone that I recognise, my prejudice kicks in. I go into 'telemarketer game' mode. It's actually a very positive prejudice.  I immediately start thinking of questions I can ask to break their script, and keep them on the line as long as possible before I finally tell them that I've kept them on the phone for (insert time) minutes and that I don't actually buy things over the phone on principle, because it encourages telemarketing. 

My best score so far is 9 minutes and 23 seconds.

Now some people might view that as unethical (or immature) because I'm deliberately deceiving somebody. (Abu Rashid - No I'm not 15. Reverse the digits and you'll be closer to the mark)

Actually I regard it as the only ethical behaviour because I regard telemarketing itself to be an abomination and a scourge on civilized society, and I feel that it's my duty to discourage them as much as possible.
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #61 - Jul 4th, 2008 at 9:09pm
 
I like to gently lay the phone down and come back later to see if they are still talking.
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #62 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 10:54am
 
You see the problem with an absolute moral code is that it's all very well when you're in a normal day to day life situation.

Thou Shalt not kill

Thou shalt not steal

That's all very well for most situations. But let's say a depraved atheist rushed into a church (or a Mosque), gun in hand and decided to take all the congregation hostage.

We have a hostage situation that goes on for hours. The police are surrounding the church, and the terrorist is starting to get a bit on edge. He has his back turned on one of the congregation members who spots the gun in the terrorist's back pocket.

The congregation member (an ex police woman) quickly steals the gun and points it at the terrorist, who walks towards the woman, not believing  that she will actually fire the gun. Twice she warns him that she is prepared to fire the weapon, and twice he ignores her. Finally she shoots him and he crumples to the floor, dead.

Unfortunately, she has just stolen a gun, and she just killed a man, so that's it - no honours to be bestowed - just a stoning or two, preferably fatal.

Then common sense and humanity step in, and they decide that she had actually just borrowed the gun, and that the terrorist had just walked in the way of the bullet.

So the congregation decide to honour the heroine for carrying out such a brave act in the face of such personal danger.

She is presented with a bravery award and asked to make a short speech.

"I am very proud and honored tonight to accept this award both as a Muslim (or insert religion) and a Lesbian....."

Stone her!!!!!!!!!!!!   Wink
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #63 - Jul 5th, 2008 at 12:53pm
 
Quote:
It is about assessing risk, the tradeoffs between competing risks, and the tradeoff between risk and reward in a rational manner. The bahaviour you described is irrational as well as immoral.


... And yet we are very often driven by irrationality. We like, love, dislike and hate many things and our feelings may not be based on rationality.

We are susceptible to the irrationality of mob hysteria like at a sports venue or a festive national day or when vilifying entire nations because they won't let our crims out of jail for free or when we determine their guilt before we are sure of the facts concerning how a baby could have died in the desert, for example. We are susceptible to racial stereotyping and believe that a bunch of foreigners of ethnicity X on a sinking boat would throw their babies overboard. We believe all kinds of strange things that may have absolutely no factual or rational basis.

And most often we attempt to rationalise them all when called on to justify our actions or we attempt to bury them due to shame and embarrassment. But we will believe spurious data that purport to justify our prejudices. We hear what we want to hear and see what we believe is there to be seen, because we want to believe our prejudices are acts of “sagacious perspicacity” and not just examples of irrational fear.

And, of course, often our fears which drive us to prejudge others do have some basis in reality - at least insofar as the past is some guide to the future. Like a cabbie who will not stop if the fare is of ethnicity X. Yes it’s easy, they might say, to be upbeat about X… until you’re beat up by X.

And also maybe there is even good enough reason to justify prejudice (or perhaps in this case correct risk assessment). No one would think any less of you if you chose to avoid a notoriously dangerous street known to be frequented by violent people – that you could rightly claim is an act of risk assessment - If you claim that the majority of crims in that street are of origin X and by that imply or allow it to be believed that all X are dangerous, then that is just raw prejudice.

But whatever the impulse drives us to prejudge, the act itself, where it negatively impacts (or potentially negatively impacts) on the well being or rightful freedoms of an innocent other, then that act carries a degree of immorality.

No one would argue that strength of character is not required to overcome irrational fear and defeat our inclination towards prejudice when interacting with or thinking about an instance of the X we irrationally fear - because sometimes it is far easier to be prejudiced than tolerant. That fact, however, does not excise the immorality from prejudice nor the status of virtue from tolerance.
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« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2008 at 2:32pm by NorthOfNorth »  

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #64 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 8:16am
 
So far we've discussed Respect (self-respect) and Tolerance (as the antithesis of prejudice) as possible features of a secular moral code.

Of the seven deadly sins (or cardinal sins if you're Catholic) which are lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride (and some would argue that spite is an eighth), all of which it is easily arguable can carry some degree of immorality. However, I have had some problems with the notion of pride being necessarily a cardinal sin except where its intent is to refer to arrogance.

Do you risk your own virtue necessarily when you feel proud that your children have succeeded? Or when your country has acted honourably?

Compare those to acting in an arrogant manner.

Is arrogance in itself immoral?
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #65 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 8:41am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 7th, 2008 at 8:16am:
Of the seven deadly sins (or cardinal sins if you're Catholic) which are lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride (and some would argue that spite is an eighth), all of which it is easily arguable can carry some degree of immorality. However, I have had some problems with the notion of pride being necessarily a cardinal sin except where its intent is to refer to arrogance.

Do you risk your own virtue necessarily when you feel proud that your children have succeeded? Or when your country has acted honourably?

Compare those to acting in an arrogant manner.

Is arrogance in itself immoral?


Only for other people  Grin

As a secular moral code, you're drawing on some good aspects of the Christian tradition, but to me there are some good examples in Taoist philosophy and Buddhism. (Nothing is Nothing)

As far as pride is concerned, it has its pitfalls (pride comes before a fall), and in its worse form leads to martyrdom, but I think patriotic pride or pride in one's community or religion can be very positive. If everybody in a community feels like it's doing well, it will do well. In that respect, pride is motivational.

For example, I like the Taoist virtue of the wu wei, or 'go with the flow' often translated as "effortless doing". We reach peak efficiency in life if we can achieve things without deliberately trying too hard. People who try too hard and make it obvious that they are putting in a big effort are basically putting a lot of energy into 'big timing' themselves, and making a fool of themselves. We are part of the universe, it's not 'Me versus the rest of the universe', and the sooner we realise that we are part of nature, the easier things will be.

When I'm road running, I always look for the wu wei. Don't waste all your energy fighting the universe when you can actually use the natural flow of the universe to improve your effort in life.

I don't know if I've explained that very well, but to me that's as important a moral value as any in Western philosophy and religion, and in light of the current climate crisis, it's even more relevant today.

I'm not going to explain the enture Taoist philosophy in one post, but in terms of ethics, the 'three treasures' are compassion, moderation and humility. They are also sometimes translated as kindness, simplicity and modesty.
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #66 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 9:00am
 
muso wrote on Jul 7th, 2008 at 8:41am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 7th, 2008 at 8:16am:
Of the seven deadly sins (or cardinal sins if you're Catholic) which are lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride (and some would argue that spite is an eighth), all of which it is easily arguable can carry some degree of immorality. However, I have had some problems with the notion of pride being necessarily a cardinal sin except where its intent is to refer to arrogance.

Do you risk your own virtue necessarily when you feel proud that your children have succeeded? Or when your country has acted honourably?

Compare those to acting in an arrogant manner.

Is arrogance in itself immoral?


Only for other people  Grin

As a secular moral code, you're drawing on some good aspects of the Christian tradition, but to me there are some good examples in Taoist philosophy and Buddhism. (Nothing is Nothing)

As far as pride is concerned, it has its pitfalls (pride comes before a fall), and in its worse form leads to martyrdom, but I think patriotic pride or pride in one's community or religion can be very positive. If everybody in a community feels like it's doing well, it will do well. In that respect, pride is motivational.

For example, I like the Taoist virtue of the wu wei, or 'go with the flow' often translated as "effortless doing". We reach peak efficiency in life if we can achieve things without deliberately trying too hard. People who try too hard and make it obvious that they are putting in a big effort are basically putting a lot of energy into 'big timing' themselves, and making a fool of themselves. We are part of the universe, it's not 'Me versus the rest of the universe', and the sooner we realise that we are part of nature, the easier things will be.

When I'm road running, I always look for the wu wei. Don't waste all your energy fighting the universe when you can actually use the natural flow of the universe to improve your effort in life.

I don't know if I've explained that very well, but to me that's as important a moral value as any in Western philosophy and religion, and in light of the current climate crisis, it's even more relevant today.

I'm not going to explain the enture Taoist philosophy in one post, but in terms of ethics, the 'three treasures' are compassion, moderation and humility. They are also sometimes translated as kindness, simplicity and modesty.


Good points raised. I absolutely agree. I would say all the the pillars of Buddhist and Taoist moral teachings have relevance to a secular moral code and should be included.

With pride, is it really pride, in itself, that we are warned comes before a fall or is it arrogance? Pride can be a positive attribute. Its hard to imagine that arrogance (an antonym of humility) could ever be considered morally wholesome (as opposed to pride which it could be argued can be a virtue).

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #67 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 2:06pm
 
I mentioned Buddhism before. I really like some of the aspects of Buddhism. Unlike other religions, the enlightenment comes from an appreciation of the nature of reality rather than from the revelations of a god.

It also relies on the premise that humans have the capability of understanding their world and that relief from suffering can only be achieved by improving this understanding - not as a result of faith in some other entity.

This is what the Dalai Lama says about the Buddhist version of morality when asked about the 'ten virtuous acts'

"Three concern the body: one must not kill, steal, or engage in sexual misconduct. Four others are verbal: do not lie, defame others, speak offensive words, or engage in frivolous conversation, which relates to everything that might be said under the influence of afflicting emotions. Finally, the last three virtuous acts are of a mental nature: do not develop covetousness or malice and, finally, do not hold false or perverted views, such as the extreme view, close to nihilism, which totally denies spiritual perfection.

What we mean by "erroneous views" generally includes absolutist, eternalist, and nihilistic views. But in the context of the ten virtuous acts, only nihilistic views are implicated. It is therefore on the basis of a lifestyle disciplined by ethics that one abstains from committing the contrary acts, the ten non-virtuous acts. When faced with a situation where you might possibly commit such negative acts, you abstain from committing them. A life rooted in ethics has at its foundation the abandonment of the ten non-virtues in favour of the practice of their opposites."
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #68 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 3:37pm
 
I can understand why pride is a sin. You say pride in your country is a good thing. But nationalistic pride was a major cause of both world wars. Pride in your country, or anything else, prevents you from looking at it with open eyes. That goes for your kids as well. Pride is a barrier to the truth.

What's the difference between spite and wrath?
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #69 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 4:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2008 at 3:37pm:
I can understand why pride is a sin. You say pride in your country is a good thing. But nationalistic pride was a major cause of both world wars. Pride in your country, or anything else, prevents you from looking at it with open eyes. That goes for your kids as well. Pride is a barrier to the truth.



Pride is a double-edged sword. You need a certain amount of pride in yourself, or self esteem to get things done. I think there is a distinction between blind nationalistic pride and motivational pride.  I've worked for organisations that have very little pride within the workforce, and I've worked for companies that have a genuine culture of corporate pride. Guess which ones do best.

You can be proud of your achievements, and you can be proud to be part of a country with the national values of Australia.

However that national pride can be distorted by those with more sinister purposes (such as Adolf Hitler).

Many of the other virtues can similarly be twisted and distorted by manipulative people.

I see the positive (virtuous) side of religion as well as the negative side. At its worse, religion can be used as a justification for genocide. At its best, it can inspire people to do great things.

Most genuinely religious people that I have met have very robust moral principles, but I don't think that religion is an essential basis for morality.
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #70 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 4:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2008 at 3:37pm:
I can understand why pride is a sin. You say pride in your country is a good thing. But nationalistic pride was a major cause of both world wars. Pride in your country, or anything else, prevents you from looking at it with open eyes. That goes for your kids as well. Pride is a barrier to the truth.


But is that pride as much as it is arrogance/chauvinism/hubris? Is it not possible to be proud (and to love) being aware of warts and all?

What's the difference between spite and wrath?

Spite is an internal feeling of ill will, wrath is an externalised expression but its easy to argue they are the same thing... just a mater of degree separates them. However, Buddhists acknowledge a state of wrath in a Buddha, such that he shakes you into enlightenment with his anger. But the anger is not born of spite or hatred but out of compassion for another being who, without the shock of the wrathful Buddha, would miss the opportunity for enlightenment. Spite does not appear to have a positive aspect it is an internally borne sense of malice which may give rise to acts of rage or may just simmer, polluting the bearer's mind.

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #71 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 4:19pm
 
Pride is a double-edged sword. You need a certain amount of pride in yourself, or self esteem to get things done.

What's the difference between self esteem and pride?

I've worked for organisations that have very little pride within the workforce, and I've worked for companies that have a genuine culture of corporate pride. Guess which ones do best.

Guess which ones would be more able to get their employees to act immorally?
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #72 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 6:45pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2008 at 4:19pm:
Pride is a double-edged sword. You need a certain amount of pride in yourself, or self esteem to get things done.

What's the difference between self esteem and pride?

I've worked for organisations that have very little pride within the workforce, and I've worked for companies that have a genuine culture of corporate pride. Guess which ones do best.

Guess which ones would be more able to get their employees to act immorally?


But is it pride or arrogance/hubris?

You could say "I am proud of this company's achievements, we do a damn good job" (that's pride).

Then "This company's so good that really the opposition should be eliminated... Let's set them up to fail whenever we can and soon we'll have run them out of town and if we need to break the law to do it... well, just remember we're the good guys".... that's arrogance.

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #73 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 6:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 7th, 2008 at 4:19pm:
What's the difference between self esteem and pride?

I've worked for organisations that have very little pride within the workforce, and I've worked for companies that have a genuine culture of corporate pride. Guess which ones do best.

Guess which ones would be more able to get their employees to act immorally?


On the latter point, I've never been in that kind of situation. I've always worked for reasonably responsible corporations. When I've been in a commercial role, I've always been virtually browbeaten with  corporate ethics, including such things as avoiding restrictive trade practices  and collusive trading etc. It's just not worth the risk to do anything else, unless it's a cowboy outfit.

I'm not sure what you're getting at re pride and self-esteem. Pride has a broader meaning, including that of 'self esteem'. Self esteem is like self-worth or believing in ones own potential. Pride can also mean an over inflated self image. That's what I mean about too much pride.

I guess it's very cultural and contextual when you get into semantics like this. I remember my mother saying to me when I hadn't tucked my shirt in, "have some pride in yourself' In that respect it's very similar to self respect, or having a positive attitude towards oneself which may or may not mean that one has an internal locus of control.
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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #74 - Jul 7th, 2008 at 7:49pm
 
I think when we become over-inflated with ourselves, we are displaying arrogance or hubris. We no longer have a sense of pride, but a sense of superiority. We are beyond ourselves, over-confident and ready to fall as soon as we realise how far we are off the cliff's edge.


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