Australian Politics Forum - a secular moral code

NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #45 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:06pm

Muso

The problem with excising the moral valency from a risk assessment is that a significant dimension of value is lost.

An amoral risk assessment would allow for any instinctive feelings of fear no matter how unjustified to be worthy of inclusion. It would be OK to prejudge all Somalis, for instance, as natural born muggers, if you felt that way. You could assess the risk and determine that taking an alternate route is the best option.

By including the moral dimension you can ask the questions: Was my sister-in-law's actions morally justifiable? Is it right to presume all Somalis (or enough of them) are muggers? What effect does this prejudice have on good Somali-Australian citizens? Is it right for my sister-in-law to pass on this prejudice to others dressed as a "fact"?

That kind of prejudice is also a two edged sword. What happens to your sister-in-law's world as she progressively quarantines parts of it from her life? When and where does it end? Does her submission to fear mean that ultimately she will not leave the house?

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47433 At my desk.	Re: a secular moral code Reply #46 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:13pm Helian, I think that prejudice leads people to vastly overestimate the risk involved in walking past a somali. The moralistic and the risk assessment approach are not contradictory. The immoral behaviour also makes no sense from a risk management presepective.
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mozzaok

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #47 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:26pm

For any real prejudice to be evidenced, it would need to take the circumstances you are in to be evaluated.
If you were out alone, and saw a group of ethnic, gang style, youths loitering, in what you perceive to be a threatening or intimidatory fashion, then avoiding them is not prejudicial, just cautious.
If you have a fear of all ethnic, youths, irrespective of the circumstances, then you would need to consider if your fears were justified, or more based on emotive reporting of cultural violence, it does exist, but it needs to have a fair perspective applied to it.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #48 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:39pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:13pm:

The immoral behaviour also makes no sense from a risk management presepective.

How does it make no sense? Is risk assessment about whether evasive action is right or wrong or is it about contributing to achieving an outcome with the least amount of loss or damage? If you determine that Somalis are a risk (for whatever reason) are you not then bound to determine a mitigation strategy, like selecting a safer route?

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47433 At my desk.	Re: a secular moral code Reply #49 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:42pm or is it about contributing to achieving an outcome with the least amount of loss or damage? It is about assessing risk, the tradeoffs between competing risks, and the tradeoff between risk and reward in a rational manner. The bahaviour you described is irrational as well as immoral.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #50 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:46pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:42pm:

or is it about contributing to achieving an outcome with the least amount of loss or damage?

It is about assessing risk, the tradeoffs between competing risks, and the tradeoff between risk and reward in a rational manner. The bahaviour you described is irrational as well as immoral.

So the factor that is the crux is one of rationality not morality? If you had stats that indicated superficially that the chances of being mugged in Smith St (where coincidentally many Somalis live) are 1 in 12. Would morality come into it or would this fact require a mitigation strategy?

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freediver

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #51 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:57pm

So the factor that is the crux is one of rationality not morality?

I am saying they do not contradict each other.

If you had stats that indicated superficially that the chances of being mugged in Smith St (where coincidentally many Somalis live) are 1 in 12. Would morality come into it or would this fact require a mitigation strategy?

Hell yes. If there is a one in 12 chance of getting mugged, no morality and no rationality would make someone feel compelled to take that risk.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #52 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 1:01pm

mozzaok wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:26pm:

For any real prejudice to be evidenced, it would need to take the circumstances you are in to be evaluated.
If you were out alone, and saw a group of ethnic, gang style, youths loitering, in what you perceive to be a threatening or intimidatory fashion, then avoiding them is not prejudicial, just cautious.
If you have a fear of all ethnic, youths, irrespective of the circumstances, then you would need to consider if your fears were justified, or more based on emotive reporting of cultural violence, it does exist, but it needs to have a fair perspective applied to it.

Perspective. Easy to say for most, hard to apply for many. It's not easy to overcome reactive or instinctive fear. How does it go, an optimist is a pessimist who hasn't been disappointed enough... Or... its easy to be even-handed about Johnny until he knocks you off your bike.

I believe non-prejudice is easy when you have no evidence to the contrary. True commitment to non-prejudice is when you have the courage to be so despite past injuries.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #53 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 1:04pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 12:57pm:

So the factor that is the crux is one of rationality not morality?

I am saying they do not contradict each other.

If you had stats that indicated superficially that the chances of being mugged in Smith St (where coincidentally many Somalis live) are 1 in 12. Would morality come into it or would this fact require a mitigation strategy?

Hell yes. If there is a one in 12 chance of getting mugged, no morality and no rationality would make someone feel compelled to take that risk.

What would be your commitment to the moral high ground in the case of the 1 in 12 risk?

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mozzaok

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #54 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 1:06pm

So true Helian, I previously mentioned how we accepted the attitudes of many diggers towards the japanese after the war, we empathised with their terrible experiences, and did not condemn them because of that.

We did however have a great admiration for those who could rise above their past experiences and extend the hand of friendship and reconciliation.

So we can praise and encourage a more generous attitude, but we cannot condemn the ones who could not make that step.

The whole 'walk a mile in my shoes' thing, you know.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47433 At my desk.	Re: a secular moral code Reply #55 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 1:07pm There is no moral high ground. You are not discriminating against people based on race. You are avoiding a clear and present danger. It wouldn't make any difference if the muggers were white or black.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #56 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 1:57pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 1:07pm:

There is no moral high ground. You are not discriminating against people based on race. You are avoiding a clear and present danger. It wouldn't make any difference if the muggers were white or black.

The question is would you be prepared to query the validity of the stats if it were a well known "Anglo-Australian" street as opposed to a well known "Somali" one?

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47433 At my desk.	Re: a secular moral code Reply #57 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 2:07pm I would query those stats no matter where they came from.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #58 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 2:16pm

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 2:07pm:

I would query those stats no matter where they came from.

The question was rhetorical, I suppose. Admitting to prejudice is like admitting to schadenfreude. We know its shameful and don't easily admit to it without heavy qualifications, except when lathered up by a mob mentality as with the Schappelle Corby fiasco.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: a secular moral code
Reply #59 - Jul 4^th, 2008 at 3:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 2:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 4^th, 2008 at 2:07pm:

I would query those stats no matter where they came from.

The question was rhetorical, I suppose. Admitting to prejudice is like admitting to schadenfreude. We know its shameful and don't easily admit to it without heavy qualifications, except when lathered up by a mob mentality as with the Schappelle Corby fiasco.

Interestingly I have heard the Police have stats on perpetrators' ethnicities by suburb (not just major crime but the many times more common petty crime like bag snatching etc) but are either pressured by local governments not to release them or they are withheld in the interests of public order. I have never read or heard a Police Commissioner making these claims but I have worked with a couple of cops who, as they say, "gave me the good oil" on some of the suburbs where I live.

Has anyone ever heard of these stats being available?

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