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Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea (Read 43430 times)
Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #195 - May 30th, 2008 at 5:02pm
 
deepthought wrote on May 30th, 2008 at 1:00pm:
First, the 'predatory pricing laws' are not new.  They were introduced by the coalition in about 2003.


I would ask for a source but wont bother because I know There has only been a relevent law since October 2007.

"so called Birdsville amendment, rushed through parliament in the dying days of the Howard government. That made it illegal for big business to sell at below-cost to kill a small competitor."


fuelwatch? Well, I can compare two brands of tinned lichees in the supermarket because they are side by side on the shelf, buy the lowest priced one and save a few cents. Why shouldn't I be able to compare petrol prices side by side.
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deepthought
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #196 - May 30th, 2008 at 5:13pm
 
Alex wrote on May 30th, 2008 at 5:02pm:
deepthought wrote on May 30th, 2008 at 1:00pm:
First, the 'predatory pricing laws' are not new.  They were introduced by the coalition in about 2003.


I would ask for a source but wont bother because I know There has only been a relevent law since October 2007.

"so called Birdsville amendment, rushed through parliament in the dying days of the Howard government. That made it illegal for big business to sell at below-cost to kill a small competitor."


fuelwatch? Well, I can compare two brands of tinned lichees in the supermarket because they are side by side on the shelf, buy the lowest priced one and save a few cents. Why shouldn't I be able to compare petrol prices side by side.


Yes, my mistake, the Boral case I spoke of was in 2003 and I mixed my dates up.  Thanks for the heads up.

I correct myself.

First, the 'predatory pricing laws' are not new.  They were introduced by the coalition in 2007.

You can compare fuel prices side by side now - you don't need fuelwatch for that.

Do you support it?
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Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #197 - May 30th, 2008 at 5:41pm
 
deepthought wrote on May 30th, 2008 at 5:13pm:
First, the 'predatory pricing laws' are not new.  They were introduced by the coalition in 2007.

You can compare fuel prices side by side now - you don't need fuelwatch for that.

Do you support it?


The Birdsville amendment is so named because not only was it rushed through parliament as a last minute deal with the Nats, but Joyce was surprised to hear the Libs had finally agreed to introduce such a law after so many years of not addressing it, that when he was finally told he could write one he was traveling. They say it was done at the bar of the Birdsville pub. It was rushed and lacks detail.
That was the best the Libs were prepared to do after sitting back and watching independant and smaller businesses disappear for years.


Yes I support fuelwatch. It was an election promise and I am happy to see it introduced.
And no, I cant compare petrol prices side by side at all. I have to drive kilometers if I want to know what the various prices are.
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deepthought
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #198 - May 30th, 2008 at 6:08pm
 
Alex wrote on May 30th, 2008 at 5:41pm:
deepthought wrote on May 30th, 2008 at 5:13pm:
First, the 'predatory pricing laws' are not new.  They were introduced by the coalition in 2007.

You can compare fuel prices side by side now - you don't need fuelwatch for that.

Do you support it?


The Birdsville amendment is so named because not only was it rushed through parliament as a last minute deal with the Nats, but Joyce was surprised to hear the Libs had finally agreed to introduce such a law after so many years of not addressing it, that when he was finally told he could write one he was traveling. They say it was done at the bar of the Birdsville pub. It was rushed and lacks detail.
That was the best the Libs were prepared to do after sitting back and watching independant and smaller businesses disappear for years.


Yes I support fuelwatch. It was an election promise and I am happy to see it introduced.
And no, I cant compare petrol prices side by side at all. I have to drive kilometers if I want to know what the various prices are.


So you oppose a 5 cent discount but support a scam which, according to some, alleges to offer a 1 or 2 cent saving.  Even though there will be a considerable cost to the taxpayer to implement and run it?  Isn't that hypocritical?

And if you support it so you can compare prices without driving "drive kilometers if I want to know what the various prices are" do you already use the available online services now?  If not why will this be different?

And if you support it and the cheapest fuel requires you to "drive kilometers" to get it, will you do that anyway?

And if you do support it and it turns out that the anti-competitive nature of it causes fuel to rise (as it actually has in Perth) how will you feel knowing you are paying more for petrol plus paying for the system plus using a system which was already available for free?

Oh and incidentally, the Section 46 which was amended in 2007 was already capable of capturing companies guilty of predatory pricing, it just did not contain the words 'predatory pricing'.

It was used against Tel$tra in 2005, Time Warner in 2001 and Safeway in 2003.
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Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #199 - May 30th, 2008 at 7:12pm
 
We know fuel is going to get more and more expensive. Nothing will make much difference. Cutting the tax is not the answer. By the time fuel hits $2.50 only 20% of it will be tax. Cut 5 cents off the excise and it will still be awful close to 20%. Wont make a scrap of difference to the price but removes money from the budget.

Fuelwatch cant make much difference either. It hasn't been a disaster in WA. Some think it good and some think it bad which is pretty normal really. It might help competition to a degree. It was never touted as an answer to the problem of fuel prices and it isn't. Because there is nothing we can do that will make a real difference. It's out of our hands.

Want cheaper fuel? Find your own oil and distil it yourself.
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deepthought
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #200 - May 31st, 2008 at 7:15am
 
Alex wrote on May 30th, 2008 at 7:12pm:
We know fuel is going to get more and more expensive. Nothing will make much difference. Cutting the tax is not the answer. By the time fuel hits $2.50 only 20% of it will be tax. Cut 5 cents off the excise and it will still be awful close to 20%. Wont make a scrap of difference to the price but removes money from the budget.

Fuelwatch cant make much difference either. It hasn't been a disaster in WA. Some think it good and some think it bad which is pretty normal really. It might help competition to a degree. It was never touted as an answer to the problem of fuel prices and it isn't. Because there is nothing we can do that will make a real difference. It's out of our hands.

Want cheaper fuel? Find your own oil and distil it yourself.


So if Cardboard Kev me-toos the idea?  What of it then?  Still a bad idea?




From liberty

Quote:
What the bugger!!!!  Now Cardboard Kev is me-tooing a possible fuel excise cut after ranting for the last two weeks how irresponsible it was of the coalition for proposing it.  Am I still in the real Australia?




Quote:
Govt won't rule out cut in petrol excise


Mounting pressure over soaring petrol prices has led the federal government to consider a backflip on cutting the fuel excise.

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd says he expects a backlash in opinion polls following a trying week in which federal police were called in to hunt down the source of embarrassing cabinet leaks about the FuelWatch scheme.

After ridiculing Opposition Leader Brendan Nelson for proposing a five cents per litre cut in the excise, the government on Friday left open the possibility of reducing the tax to ease motorists' pain.

Is Cardboard Kev actually Brendan Nelson in disguise?


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Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #201 - May 31st, 2008 at 12:41pm
 
"What of it then?  Still a bad idea?"

Yes. Bad idea and pointless.

If Rudd backflips and does it (and I dont think he will), would you give him the credit for it, or would you give credit to the Libs?

Remember, you have already given credit to the Liberals over their backflips on indexation and excise cuts...
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deepthought
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #202 - May 31st, 2008 at 3:13pm
 
Alex wrote on May 31st, 2008 at 12:41pm:
"What of it then?  Still a bad idea?"

Yes. Bad idea and pointless.

If Rudd backflips and does it (and I dont think he will), would you give him the credit for it, or would you give credit to the Libs?

Remember, you have already given credit to the Liberals over their backflips on indexation and excise cuts...


The Libs didn't backflip on indexation, the evil Liebor Party's Bob Hawke introduced that and gentle Johnny did away with it.  And Johnny cut the excise too - all by his lonesome.  Twice in fact.

And no, I wouldn't give Cardboard Kev the credit for plagiarism.

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Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #203 - May 31st, 2008 at 4:33pm
 

Dont forget Howards GST. When the base price has risen by another 50 cents, the GST will have grown by 5 cents and completely swallowed the proposed excise cut.

When petrol costs 50 60 70+ cents more and things are that much worse than they are today, the Liberal's GST will be relentlessly increasing the amount of tax on fuel.


Some interesting quotes from Henry Ergas, Economist reviewing taxation policy for the Liberal Party. May 20, 2008

Quote:
"International studies looking at the costs and benefits of fuel taxes suggested the current Australian level of 38c a litre may be about right."

"It is not obvious the current level is all that wrong,"

"The most comprehensive modelling showed that the ideal petrol tax would be about double the US rate and half the UK's. This would be roughly where Australia's fuel excise is now."
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deepthought
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #204 - May 31st, 2008 at 5:04pm
 
Alex wrote on May 31st, 2008 at 4:33pm:
Dont forget Howards GST. When the base price has risen by another 50 cents, the GST will have grown by 5 cents and completely swallowed the proposed excise cut.

When petrol costs 50 60 70+ cents more and things are that much worse than they are today, the Liberal's GST will be relentlessly increasing the amount of tax on fuel.


Some interesting quotes from Henry Ergas, Economist reviewing taxation policy for the Liberal Party. May 20, 2008

Quote:
"International studies looking at the costs and benefits of fuel taxes suggested the current Australian level of 38c a litre may be about right."

"It is not obvious the current level is all that wrong,"

"The most comprehensive modelling showed that the ideal petrol tax would be about double the US rate and half the UK's. This would be roughly where Australia's fuel excise is now."


You accidentally missed a bit out when you quoted from that report mate.  I'm sure you would not have cherry picked the article intentionally .  . . . . .


Quote:
According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Australia's petrol taxes are the fourth lowest in the developed world, behind the US, Canada and New Zealand. The level of
fuel tax has been declining in real terms by about 3 per cent a year since 2001, when the Howard government removed fuel indexation
.


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Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #205 - May 31st, 2008 at 5:12pm
 
deepthought wrote on May 31st, 2008 at 5:04pm:
[quote]According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Australia's petrol taxes are the fourth lowest in the developed world, behind the US, Canada and New Zealand. The level of
fuel tax has been declining in real terms by about 3 per cent a year since 2001, when the Howard government removed fuel indexation
.


Which completely ruins the argument in favour of an excise cut. Thanks.
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deepthought
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #206 - May 31st, 2008 at 5:38pm
 
Alex wrote on May 31st, 2008 at 5:12pm:
deepthought wrote on May 31st, 2008 at 5:04pm:
[quote]According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Australia's petrol taxes are the fourth lowest in the developed world, behind the US, Canada and New Zealand. The level of
fuel tax has been declining in real terms by about 3 per cent a year since 2001, when the Howard government removed fuel indexation
.


Which completely ruins the argument in favour of an excise cut. Thanks.


Not for me.  Since the removal of the indexation by the kindly Howard government the excise has been static.  However general revenue from the sale of fuel has not.

As the volume of fuel sold increases the total revenue increases.  An excise reduction of 5 cents per litre means that the most disadvantaged may get bread for a week (while helian gets a chocolate bar), but the effect on general revenue, while costed nominally at $1.8 billion this budget year, could be negated by the average growth in fuel sales (by volume) within one budget year.  There may well be no forward cost.

Why, incidentally, don't you want the price of fuel to be less?
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Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #207 - May 31st, 2008 at 6:44pm
 

It is inevitable, given oil supplies are dwindling and prices are going up to the extent that people are starting to think twice about driving if they can avoid it, that the volume of fuel sold will have to start falling. There are ways of saving on fuel costs that dont need the price to be reduced. Car pooling will become more and more popular for getting to work or the shops and unessential travel will be reduced.
People will adapt to save on fuel. Less fuel will be sold.
I'm not opposed to cheaper fuel costs, I just dont need the government to do it for me so I can go cruising around in an SUV.
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #208 - May 31st, 2008 at 6:50pm
 
Alex wrote on May 31st, 2008 at 6:44pm:
It is inevitable, given oil supplies are dwindling and prices are going up to the extent that people are starting to think twice about driving if they can avoid it, that the volume of fuel sold will have to start falling. There are ways of saving on fuel costs that dont need the price to be reduced. Car pooling will become more and more popular for getting to work or the shops and unessential travel will be reduced.
People will adapt to save on fuel. Less fuel will be sold.
I'm not opposed to cheaper fuel costs, I just dont need the government to do it for me so I can go cruising around in an SUV.



Once again, the attitude of the lefty shines through.  Inevitably a leftard has a 'what's in it for me' attitude and has little interest in others.

So once you realise you're not the only person in Australia how about cheaper fuel for those who struggle to survive?
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Alex
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Re: Nelson's petrol tax cuts are a bad idea
Reply #209 - May 31st, 2008 at 7:03pm
 
I havn't seen any proposal that will provide "cheaper fuel for those who struggle to survive" beyond $2.50 off a 75 dollar tank of petrol which will be completely clawed back anyway by the GST which takes 1 more cent every time the price goes up by ten cents. Thats why.

Funny you should be so worried about a few cents off excise but completely unconcerned about the effect of GST which will claw it back.

You provided the evidence that fuel excise is not the problem, and I accept it. When you see a real proposal to help "those struggling to survive", let me know.
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