Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
jail time for price fixers (Read 3256 times)
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47066
At my desk.
jail time for price fixers
Jan 11th, 2008 at 5:04pm
 
This should prevent companies from taking a purely economic approach to cartels:

Price-fixers may get jail terms: govt

http://news.smh.com.au/pricefixers-may-get-jail-terms-govt/20080111-1lfo.html

People found guilty of price fixing could face jail terms of up to five years under beefed-up legislation proposed by the federal government.

The federal government has released draft legislation to amend the Trade Practices Act, adding jail terms and harsher fines for companies and individuals who engage in serious cartel conduct.

Presently, there is no provision in the Act for the jailing of anyone proven to have engaged in cartel behaviour.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 5:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 5:04pm:
This should prevent companies from taking a purely economic approach to cartels:

Price-fixers may get jail terms: govt

http://news.smh.com.au/pricefixers-may-get-jail-terms-govt/20080111-1lfo.html

People found guilty of price fixing could face jail terms of up to five years under beefed-up legislation proposed by the federal government.

The federal government has released draft legislation to amend the Trade Practices Act, adding jail terms and harsher fines for companies and individuals who engage in serious cartel conduct.

Presently, there is no provision in the Act for the jailing of anyone proven to have engaged in cartel behaviour.


Nor should there be.  This isn't the Soviet Union.
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #2 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 5:45pm
 
Nor should there be.  This isn't the Soviet Union.

Don't be so pessimistic DT. Give Liebor time...they only 6 weeks into it. It takes time to create a Stalinist state
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47066
At my desk.
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #3 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 5:47pm
 
Um, price fixing is what communists do. It is pretty much universally illegal in capitalist countries.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
IQSRLOW
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1618
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #4 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 5:55pm
 
I don't think they have found that many incidences of it happening anyway...except for Visy just recently. It's another Labor govt feel-good measure.
Back to top
 

Political Animal has little moderation. It is the forum for free speech and free thinkers to converse passionately without the threat of being banned. It is a forum for adults.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47066
At my desk.
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #5 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 6:05pm
 
That visy thing was a preety big deal. It cost a lot of businesses a lot of money. Changing the penalty to jail time is a bit more than a feel good gesture. It reflects public impatience with the ability of very wealthy people to get away with ripping people off. Sooner or later someone is going to end up in jail because of it. A lot more people who are currently getting away with price fixing are going to think twice, now that the penalty is not just financial.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #6 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 7:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 5:47pm:
Um, price fixing is what communists do. It is pretty much universally illegal in capitalist countries.


There are lots of examples of 'price fixing'.  OPEC sets oil prices, airlines set their international ticket prices under the guise of group cooperation, health funds have their prices set for them by government and in many countries price fixing is encouraged to protect local industry.

But I'm not talking about price fixing anyway.  I'm talking about draconian legislation which turns business people into gaolbirds.  Instead of very large fines which enrichen the country the Liebor government dig deeper into our pockets to house businessmen/women with rapists, child molesters and motherphuquers.

It's medieval in its context.  It's Liebor's back to the future style in action.  Prison is not the place for business people. 

Though knowing Liebor pollies as everyone does it may be the safest place . . .
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jan 11th, 2008 at 7:20pm by deepthought »  
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Online


OzPolitic

Posts: 39432
Gender: male
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #7 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:30pm
 
deepy, I'm in agreeance with ALP and freediver on this one.

businesspeople have to operate within the laws, or they are criminals.

Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 37678
Gender: male
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #8 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:32pm
 
What a wank. 

It is okay by DT that the Law punish pricks who break the Law......but 'business people' are to be above the Law, if jail is involved.

HIH, anyone?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #9 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:43pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:32pm:
What a wank.  

It is okay by DT that the Law punish pricks who break the Law......but 'business people' are to be above the Law, if jail is involved.

HIH, anyone?


Nope.  I am not suggesting that price fixing be legal.  It is already illegal under the Trade Practices Act and is enforced by the ACCC.  Visy anyone?  It was worth $38 million to the taxpayer.   Imprisoning someone would not net $38m.  It would cost.  Which nutter dreamed up a solution which costs the taxpayer money?

I am afraid it will be necessary to repeat myself.  It is the punitive measures that Liebor propose that concern me.  

Perhaps you too could read my post for the first time Aussie?

The law already has a punishment for price fixing.  It's called a whacking great fine.
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #10 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:45pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:30pm:
deepy, I'm in agreeance with ALP and freediver on this one.

businesspeople have to operate within the laws, or they are criminals.



Should they go to prison?  Or lose the profits they made by price fixing?
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 37678
Gender: male
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #11 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:56pm
 
deepthought wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:43pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:32pm:
What a wank. 

It is okay by DT that the Law punish pricks who break the Law......but 'business people' are to be above the Law, if jail is involved.

HIH, anyone?


Nope.  I am not suggesting that price fixing be legal.  It is already illegal under the Trade Practices Act and is enforced by the ACCC.  Visy anyone?  It was worth $38 million to the taxpayer.   Imprisoning someone would not net $38m.  It would cost.  Which nutter dreamed up a solution which costs the taxpayer money?

I am afraid it will be necessary to repeat myself.  It is the punitive measures that Liebor propose that concern me. 

Perhaps you too could read my post for the first time Aussie?

The law already has a punishment for price fixing.  It's called a whacking great fine.


....and it seems, just like with breaches of ASIC legislation......(regulating the conduct of business people).......an imprisonment option will be included.

Who'd a thunk that DT would suggest that jailing Bondy, pursuing Scase, getting up those HIH cheats and jailing them was wrong?

Well, he did vote Lieberal!!!

How about the alleged AWB cheats, DT?  Jail for them an appropriate option?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47066
At my desk.
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #12 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:01pm
 
Wasn't the visy bloke a mate of Howard's? Surely we wouldn't put a mate of the PM's behind bars....

The real value in punishment is it's deterrent. It's not about the money that Visy piad back, it's about all the other companies undermining our economy. A purely financial punishment will never be sufficient deterent for a crime that is almost impossible to detect and even harder to prove. Seeing punishment as a source of income to be maximised is absurd. You want to prevent the crime, not profit from it. If you profit from this, the crooks are profiting ten times as much, as the honest business people are paying the price.

Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #13 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:07pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:56pm:
deepthought wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:43pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 8:32pm:
What a wank.  

It is okay by DT that the Law punish pricks who break the Law......but 'business people' are to be above the Law, if jail is involved.

HIH, anyone?


Nope.  I am not suggesting that price fixing be legal.  It is already illegal under the Trade Practices Act and is enforced by the ACCC.  Visy anyone?  It was worth $38 million to the taxpayer.   Imprisoning someone would not net $38m.  It would cost.  Which nutter dreamed up a solution which costs the taxpayer money?

I am afraid it will be necessary to repeat myself.  It is the punitive measures that Liebor propose that concern me.  

Perhaps you too could read my post for the first time Aussie?

The law already has a punishment for price fixing.  It's called a whacking great fine.


....and it seems, just like with breaches of ASIC legislation......(regulating the conduct of business people).......an imprisonment option will be included.

Who'd a thunk that DT would suggest that jailing Bondy, pursuing Scase, getting up those HIH cheats and jailing them was wrong?

Well, he did vote Lieberal!!!

How about the alleged AWB cheats, DT?  Jail for them an appropriate option?


When the activity is a clear breach of the criminal code then prison should be an option.  And even the Trade Practices Act has provision for application of the Criminal Code where relevant.  But colluding on price fixing of cardboard boxes or toilet paper is hardly a reason to put someone behind bars.

I'm afraid in that regard I am Liberal.  I believe in like for like.  I do not believe in draconian legislation which will inevitably capture innocents, cause massive delays in the courts and push the price of upholding the law into new territory.  Anyone recall Bondy, Skase et al?

I voted Liberal for a reason.  I believe in liberal values.
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #14 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:01pm:
Wasn't the visy bloke a mate of Howard's? Surely we wouldn't put a mate of the PM's behind bars....

The real value in punishment is it's deterrent. It's not about the money that Visy piad back, it's about all the other companies undermining our economy. A purely financial punishment will never be sufficient deterent for a crime that is almost impossible to detect and even harder to prove. Seeing punishment as a source of income to be maximised is absurd. You want to prevent the crime, not profit from it. If you profit from this, the crooks are profiting ten times as much, as the honest business people are paying the price.



As there was no "provision in the Act for the jailing of anyone proven to have engaged in cartel behaviour" I'm not certain how anyone could have been jailed whether a mate of Johnny's or not.

And you believe prison is a deterrent do you?   What are all those people doing inside?
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 37678
Gender: male
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #15 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:21pm
 
Quote:
How about the alleged AWB cheats, DT?  Jail for them an appropriate option?


After all, all they alllegedly did was ensure a good price for Australian wheat.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #16 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:32pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:21pm:
Quote:
How about the alleged AWB cheats, DT?  Jail for them an appropriate option?


After all, all they alllegedly did was ensure a good price for Australian wheat.


Who are we talking about Aussie?  I think you will find Commissioner Cole suggested there may have been breaches of the criminal code.
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Aussie
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 37678
Gender: male
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #17 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 10:04pm
 
deepthought wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:21pm:
Quote:
How about the alleged AWB cheats, DT?  Jail for them an appropriate option?


After all, all they alllegedly did was ensure a good price for Australian wheat.


Who are we talking about Aussie?  I think you will find Commissioner Cole suggested there may have been breaches of the criminal code.


What Criminal Code?

....or, do you mean the capacity of ASIC to lay a charge under either civil or criminal provisons of Corporations Law?

In either case, your argument is shallow, and inconsistent.  You would deny the Feds the capacity to send to jail buggerers under ACCC legislation and yet you submit to their capacity to do so under ASIC legislation.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #18 - Jan 11th, 2008 at 11:11pm
 
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 10:04pm:
deepthought wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:32pm:
Aussie wrote on Jan 11th, 2008 at 9:21pm:
Quote:
How about the alleged AWB cheats, DT?  Jail for them an appropriate option?


After all, all they alllegedly did was ensure a good price for Australian wheat.


Who are we talking about Aussie?  I think you will find Commissioner Cole suggested there may have been breaches of the criminal code.


What Criminal Code?

....or, do you mean the capacity of ASIC to lay a charge under either civil or criminal provisons of Corporations Law?

In either case, your argument is shallow, and inconsistent.  You would deny the Feds the capacity to send to jail buggerers under ACCC legislation and yet you submit to their capacity to do so under ASIC legislation.



No, I mean exactly what I said.  May I suggest you read my posts for the first time?

I mean a breach of the criminal code (deepy repeated).  It is a breach of the Commonwealth Criminal Code to bribe a foreign public official.

I am saying (and repeating ad nauseum) that the law is adequate as it is.  To start throwing people in prison for colluding to set the price of model airplanes, toy trucks, cardboard boxes or horse manure is phuqtackingly craptacular.  It could only happen with a freedom hating Liebor government.

I voted Liberal.
Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47066
At my desk.
Rudd govt to outlaw hidden pricing
Reply #19 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 10:21am
 
This is another necessary law. It really pisses me off when I go to America and the marked prices exclude their equivalent of the GST, tips and other charges. The standard response from the business is 'we don't get the tax, or the tips which go to employees.' By that logic they should exclude all their other costs and only mark the profits on the item. It's just stupid. Marked and advertised prices are for the customer, not so the business knows how much they get from each transaction.

http://news.smh.com.au/rudd-govt-to-outlaw-hidden-pricing/20080112-1ljw.html

The federal government may introduce laws forcing airlines and retailers to advertise the full cost of their products, and not exclude hidden fees and taxes.

Under the bill, drafted by the previous Howard government, so-called component pricing would have been outlawed.

Assistant Treasurer Chris Bowen said Labor is now considering resurrecting the bill, Fairfax Newspapers report.

The airlines are the most high-profile offenders of component pricing, often not including levies and taxes when they advertise their flights, Fairfax says.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Sprintcyclist
Gold Member
*****
Online


OzPolitic

Posts: 39432
Gender: male
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #20 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 1:14pm
 
freediver - I absolutely agree with this law.

it is ridiculous for me to get quotes then all GST, then postage and packaging !!
The customer wants to know how much it will cost us.

If someone says $120, that is what is will cost me. $120.
Not somewhere over $130 or more.

Back to top
 

Modern Classic Right Wing
 
IP Logged
 
deepthought
Gold Member
*****
Offline


In Defence Of Liberty

Posts: 2869
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #21 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 1:58pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 12th, 2008 at 1:14pm:
freediver - I absolutely agree with this law.

it is ridiculous for me to get quotes then all GST, then postage and packaging !!
The customer wants to know how much it will cost us.

If someone says $120, that is what is will cost me. $120.
Not somewhere over $130 or more.



Agreed.  When I shop, I want to know what it will cost.  The prices of cars should really be 'on road' and air tickets should be what it costs to board.

Back to top
 
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Online


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 47066
At my desk.
Re: jail time for price fixers
Reply #22 - Jan 12th, 2008 at 3:05pm
 
I looked into the car issue recently. That is also a big scam. There are some genuine dealer delivery charges for new cars. If you live in Alice Springs you will have to pay a bit more. The simple way to get around that is to demand that any vehicle be available for the advertised price in at least two capital cities for nationawide advertising, or two dealers if the advertising is limited to a state or region. On top of ripping you off, they won't even tell you what the price is, even if you turn up in person. You have to do a test drive then sit with them for half an hour while they tell you what a good deal they can line up and ask you how much you are willing to pay. You basically have to agree to buy it before they will tell you.
Back to top
 

I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print