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"We are a society not just an economy" - partisan? (Read 18079 times)
freediver
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"We are a society not just an economy" - partisan?
Nov 20th, 2007 at 4:56pm
 
The Liberal party cannot have it both ways. If it claims that it supports the concept of being more than just an economy then it cannot complain about a message that has bipartisan backing.

School sign stirs political debate

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/School-sign-stirs-political-debate/2007/11/20/1195321750325.html

Acting NSW Premier John Watkins says he does not believe a Sydney school is displaying an anti-John Howard slogan on its school grounds.

Riverside Girls High School at Gladesville in Sydney's north-west is displaying the message "We are a society not just an economy" on an external notice board.

But Mr Watkins said he saw nothing wrong with the Riverside slogan.

"Actually, both sides of federal politics believe that," he said.

"I don't see it as being politically partisan to say that we are more than just an economy, that we are a society."

Mr Stoner said later, he believed the message was a shot at the Howard government.

"John Watkins must think we came down in the last shower if he's trying to sell this as a non-partisan, non-political message," he told reporters.

"It's clearly a reference to the Howard government, it's clearly been placed there at the peak time of political opportunism, just days out from an election."
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #1 - Nov 20th, 2007 at 5:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 20th, 2007 at 4:56pm:
The Liberal party cannot have it both ways. If it claims that it supports the concept of being more than just an economy then it cannot complain about a message that has bipartisan backing.

School sign stirs political debate

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/School-sign-stirs-political-debate/2007/11/20/1195321750325.html

Acting NSW Premier John Watkins says he does not believe a Sydney school is displaying an anti-John Howard slogan on its school grounds.

Riverside Girls High School at Gladesville in Sydney's north-west is displaying the message "We are a society not just an economy" on an external notice board.

But Mr Watkins said he saw nothing wrong with the Riverside slogan.

"Actually, both sides of federal politics believe that," he said.

"I don't see it as being politically partisan to say that we are more than just an economy, that we are a society."

Mr Stoner said later, he believed the message was a shot at the Howard government.

"John Watkins must think we came down in the last shower if he's trying to sell this as a non-partisan, non-political message," he told reporters.

"It's clearly a reference to the Howard government, it's clearly been placed there at the peak time of political opportunism, just days out from an election."



"We are a society not just an economy"?

What does it mean?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #2 - Nov 20th, 2007 at 6:16pm
 
Deep - it is an ALP platitude, so it means nothing.

We are always a society.
We can be a poor malnourished ignorant violent one or a wealthy educated safe one.
Take your pick
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #3 - Nov 20th, 2007 at 6:21pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 20th, 2007 at 6:16pm:
Deep - it is an ALP platitude, so it means nothing.

We are always a society.
We can be a poor malnourished ignorant violent one or a wealthy educated safe one.
Take your pick



Kind of like a bumper sticker?

Who needs an economy when we have a society - even if the society we have is a violent, starving and desperate one due to the lack of a functioning economy?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #4 - Nov 20th, 2007 at 7:15pm
 
...

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/environment-society-economy.html

This simple diagram neatly captures how the new focus on sustainability has changed the way we view the interaction between the environment, society and the economy. On the right is the old 'Mickey Mouse' model showing the economy as most important with society and the environment as separate, minor, side issues. The new 'bullseye' model on the left reveals an understanding that our society is wholly dependent on the environment and how our economy is wholly dependent on our society. Rather than seeing the environment and society as a luxury issue that only the rich can afford to concern themselves with, they are a vital basis which must be maintained in order to achieve a healthy economy. You cannot sacrifice the environment for the economy - it is simply not possible. By destroying the environment, you destroy the society and the economy.



Sprint and DT, both parties support the concept, yet the Liberals are upset because they think people will associate it more with Labor.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #5 - Nov 20th, 2007 at 7:49pm
 
One Liberal is upset - that is hardly a crowd.  But that kind of bumper sticker philosophy is probably quite typical of the Liebor supporter.  After all why else would Kevvum be trotting out slogans like 'Education Revolution' and 'Fork In The Road' if he didn't think his audience anaesthetised enough to be convinced by it.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #6 - Nov 20th, 2007 at 7:57pm
 
Cute pictures FD- but utterly meaningless.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #7 - Nov 20th, 2007 at 8:32pm
 
Nah freediver, I liked the diagrams. Just interpereted them differently.

The concentric one shows a well run ecomony is at the centre of the society, which correspondingly supports the envitronment.

The mickey mouse one nothing is together, the environment and society will roll off and away.
All will tumble

the lesser developed economies are destroying environments quicker and the societies are worse.
The more developed economies are better for the environment and have the best society
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #8 - Nov 21st, 2007 at 9:20am
 
That generalisation is not entirely true. There are plenty of dirt poor countries who look after their environment and plenty of rich ones that don't. The difference is the direction they are going. The environment is the cause, not the result.

Deepthought, if you want bumper sticker philosophy, try repeating over and over again 'Labor will stuff the economy.' (Then complaining if the public thinks you only care about the economy).
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #9 - Nov 21st, 2007 at 6:40pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2007 at 9:20am:
That generalisation is not entirely true. There are plenty of dirt poor countries who look after their environment and plenty of rich ones that don't. The difference is the direction they are going. The environment is the cause, not the result.

Deepthought, if you want bumper sticker philosophy, try repeating over and over again 'Labor will stuff the economy.' (Then complaining if the public thinks you only care about the economy).


Thing is freediver, there's adequate proof that Liebor root economies.  They always have.   Australia has a history of cyclic catastrophes caused by Liebor Parties then fixed by the coaltion.

Whereas 'forks in the road' and 'education revolutions' are so much jaw flapping with no substance.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #10 - Nov 21st, 2007 at 6:52pm
 
Right now the Liberal party is looking more like the Labor party of old. Handouts for everyone. It's absurdly simplistic to assume the smae aprty means te same policies. It's the policies that matter.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #11 - Nov 21st, 2007 at 7:33pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2007 at 6:52pm:
Right now the Liberal party is looking more like the Labor party of old. Handouts for everyone. It's absurdly simplistic to assume the smae aprty means te same policies. It's the policies that matter.


Quite.  And once you have heard Kevvum speak you have heard how he plans to root the economy.   Again.

But you will only hear it after you take your fingers out of your ears.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #12 - Nov 21st, 2007 at 7:38pm
 
Perhaps you should quote him.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #13 - Nov 21st, 2007 at 9:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 21st, 2007 at 7:38pm:
Perhaps you should quote him.


Quote:
RUDD: . . . .  it’s my plan for the country’s future, I’m offering new leadership, fresh ideas for working families under financial pressure but fresh ideas for the nation’s future too – hospitals, education, climate change, water and getting rid of Workchoices.


Get ready to be poverty stricken again and vote for Kevvum

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #14 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 9:38am
 
Sounds good to me. The devil is in the details of course.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #15 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 10:41am
 
What details ? he does not give any, nor answer any questions
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #16 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 10:45am
 
I think you have to look for them Sprint.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #17 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 5:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 22nd, 2007 at 9:38am:
Sounds good to me. The devil is in the details of course.


Well he's opposed to the idea of regional run (by boards) hospitals and as the current system is in chaos what does he propose?  He doesn't say but I guess he means throwing more buckets of money at the problem and hope it goes away.

Education revolution menas chucking vast sums of money at Technical Colleges while the world cries out for university educated dudes.  And allocating enough funds to child care which works out to about the price of a lunch a week for every child care worker.

Climate change is some plan to do something 40 years from now - a target he hopes to meet (but doesn't say how) in 2050.  And he will ratify the Kyoto Treaty which could see all our unskilled jobs go offshore to China and India.

His historical 'water plan' was to do nothing because dam building upset voters so the future is likely to be the same.

And by getting rid of workchoices he will re-create the army of casual workers with no security and no future that Keating created before and he will increase unemployment dramatically.

Yep, I agree freediver.  It all looks pretty good to an ALP supporter who doesn't care about ordinary Australians as long as the unions and Liebor cronies are happy.

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #18 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 8:02pm
 
Education revolution menas chucking vast sums of money at Technical Colleges while the world cries out for university educated dudes.

Tried to hire a plumber recently?

Climate change is some plan to do something 40 years from now

Ratifying Kyoto will imply short term action.

And he will ratify the Kyoto Treaty which could see all our unskilled jobs go offshore to China and India.

This gets repeated over and over, but I haven't seen any hard evidence. It's especially ahrd to justify given China's massive investment in wind energy.

You can't argue climate change both ways - that you don't like it because he will do nothing and that you don't like it because he will do something.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #19 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 8:09pm
 
It's especially ahrd to justify given China's massive investment in wind energy.

Massive according to who and in relation to what?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #20 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 8:33pm
 
For starters, compared to Austrralia's investment. According to who - try the Australian wind energy comapnies who are taking their jobs over to China because of our government's 'full steam ahead' approach to coal fired power stations.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #21 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 8:40pm
 
For starters, compared to Austrralia's investment.

How about a per capita/ KW comparison then...if it is on the 'massive' scale

try the Australian wind energy comapnies who are taking their jobs over to China because of economies of scale

I fixed that one for you
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #22 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 9:07pm
 
It has nothing to do with economies of scale. We aren't taking our coal fired plants over to China because of economies of scale. The Howard government killed off the Australian wind power industry. It's as simple as that.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #23 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 9:53pm
 
What rot

You stated
the Australian wind energy comapnies who are taking their jobs over to China

The reason for this is economies of scale

We aren't taking our coal fired plants over to China because of economies of scale.

What sort of strawman argument is that? Aside from that fact that China will be pulling online more coal fired plants in the next few years than what your beloved Kyoto protocol could ever hope to counteract.

The Howard government killed off the Australian wind power industry. It's as simple as that.

Pray tell oh environmental saviour?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #24 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 10:38pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 22nd, 2007 at 9:07pm:
It has nothing to do with economies of scale. We aren't taking our coal fired plants over to China because of economies of scale. The Howard government killed off the Australian wind power industry. It's as simple as that.


Most of China's energy will be coming from nuclear plants mate.  The wind plants are for people like you who believe that their tiny investment in renewable means something.

Are you aware that wind energy power generation is considerably more costly than many other forms and that it can not be relied upon for base load?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #25 - Nov 22nd, 2007 at 11:30pm
 
  Howard's fear has been that Kyoto would put out the flame of his flickering little economy.
  It will have a wet blanket effect for sure. But our economy with the right people in charge
  would be unstoppable.

  Australia is a country that hasn't happened yet.
     
  To get it happening we must put a new party into parliment.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #26 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 12:21am
 
So what you are saying is...that you aren't saying anything at all?  Roll Eyes
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #27 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 12:41am
 
What I'm saying is if 3.whatever percent  growth was the best the colonial conservatives could do, Labor will probaly
manage only half of that under Kyoto.

A new party is needed, a party that has a real plan for the country.

A plan that the Sustainability party will come up with in time.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #28 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 6:15am
 
Greg wrote on Nov 22nd, 2007 at 11:30pm:
 Howard's fear has been that Kyoto would put out the flame of his flickering little economy.
 It will have a wet blanket effect for sure. But our economy with the right people in charge
 would be unstoppable.

 Australia is a country that hasn't happened yet.
     
 To get it happening we must put a new party into parliment.


And what PM would not want to protect his 'flickering little economy'?  Why destroy the market which enables a country to build a society?  Without an economy we have the end of normalcy.  Forget a society - it would crumble overnight without wealth.  Check out Nauru.  Without an economy Nauru's chief source of income is Australian aid.  90% of Naurian adults are overweight, 40% of Naurians have adult onset diabetes and the life expectancy of Nauruian men is 58 years young.  The Bank of Nauru is insolvent, 95% of all employed persons work for the government - however unemployment is at 90%.

Only with an economy can a functioning society exist.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #29 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 7:25am
 
The reason for this is economies of scale

No it isn't. This is just stupid. Coal fired plants are more suited to alrger scale setups. The economies of scale argument works in the opposite direction. It is Howard government policy that is destroying our wind industry.

What sort of strawman argument is that?

It is an absurd thing to say - but no more absurd than claiming that economies of scale are sending our wind energy jobs overseas. The fact that we are even discussing economies of scale in this context is absurd.

Pray tell oh environmental saviour?

They federalised the states MRET system. The states established a wind energy industry. Howard destroyed it. This is well known.

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/ecita_ctte/renewableenergy/report/d03.htm

The Government's failure to implement recommendations 8 and 9 of the Tambling report (to increase and extend MRET) in this Bill is economically, socially and environmentally irresponsible and short-sighted.

In addition to potential job losses submitters also indicated that because of the Government's failure to provide business certainty companies and investors are moving offshore resulting in billions of dollars of lost investment in Australia. This is criminal given Australians widening trade and current account deficit gap.

The Australian Wind Energy Association cited in their submission a number of examples of investors going offshore as a result of Government inaction:

The investment cliff is also clearly demonstrated by the amount of investment that is proceeding offshore to countries and regions providing market incentives for the renewable energy sector.

Are you aware that wind energy power generation is considerably more costly than many other forms and that it can not be relied upon for base load?

Of course it is more expensive or we would have been using them already. Under a distributed system thay can support significant base load. Base load is also not fixed - there are plenty of economic mechanisms that are already used to adjust electricity consumption.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #30 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 4:30pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 22nd, 2007 at 9:07pm:
It has nothing to do with economies of scale. We aren't taking our coal fired plants over to China because of economies of scale. The Howard government killed off the Australian wind power industry. It's as simple as that.


It has a great deal to do with economies of scale.

China's energy requirements are frightening.  Today they produce approx 2,000,000,000,000 Kwh of electricity - that's 2 thousand billion Kwh.  That's far more than the rest of Asia combined. 

Wind power makes up less than .001%.  Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!!   It's pathetically small as a percentage of the total.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region.  We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined.  In fact we generate more electricity using wind power than Latin America, the Carribean, North Africa, Egypt and Morocco combined.  Under John Howard we have seen huge growth in alternative energies.

But still we generate only a little over half of China's output.

It's called 'economies of scale' as IQ pointed out.  They don't seem to do much as a percentage - but the quantum is massive.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #31 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 4:36pm
 
Wind power makes up less than .001%.  Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!!

Wrong. Wind had already made up more than 100 times that amount a few years back, before they started ramping up wind power.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region.  We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined.

Crap. What do you mean by pacific region anyway? Just the little Islands?

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/releases/china-has-potential-to-be-worl

Beijing, China — On the eve of the Beijing International Renewable Energy Conference (BIREC)(1), a new report released by the Chinese Renewable Energy Industries Association (CREIA) and sponsored by Greenpeace and the European Wind Energy Association (EWEA) shows that China could at least double its current wind energy target for 2020

Energy Bureau Director of the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), Xu Dingming said: “The development of renewable energy plays a crucial strategic role in the power supply of China. Wind energy growth in China is now on a fast track and globally we believe that wind power will become the primary alternative energy in the future.”

According to the CREIA report, Wind Force 12 in China, China’s current wind energy plan is to reach 20 Gigawatts (GW) (2) by 2020. Germany, the world wind energy leader today, has just under 17GW. However experts within the Chinese industry believe that 40GW can be delivered within 15 years; rising to ten times this by 2050. This scale of wind power would need 20,000 typical modern wind turbines by 2020 and the investment generated could be worth USD 40 billion; putting China on track to become the world’s biggest wind energy market by 2020.
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« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2007 at 4:53pm by freediver »  

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #32 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 4:57pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 4:36pm:
Wind power makes up less than .001%.  Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!!

Wrong. Wind had already made up more than 100 times that amount a few years back, before they started ramping up wind power.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region.  We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined.

Crap. What do you mean by pacific region anyway? Just the little Islands?


Correct me if I'm wrong, don't just say 'wrong' - how much power is generated by wind power in China mate?  I am all ears.

And by the Pacific Region I mean all the countries of the Pacific excluding Asia.

Australia is far and away ahead of China - we produce about 1% of energy from wind.  That's about a thousand times greater than China as a percentage of total power generation.  The Howard government has made major leaps forward.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #33 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 4:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 4:36pm:
Wind power makes up less than .001%.  Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!!

Wrong. Wind had already made up more than 100 times that amount a few years back, before they started ramping up wind power.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region.  We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined.

Crap. What do you mean by pacific region anyway? Just the little Islands?

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/releases/china-has-potential-to-be-worl

Beijing, China — On the eve of the Beijing International Renewable Energy Conference (BIREC)(1), a new report released by the Chinese Renewable Energy Industries Association (CREIA) and sponsored by Greenpeace and the European Wind Energy Association (EWEA) shows that China could at least double its current wind energy target for 2020

Energy Bureau Director of the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), Xu Dingming said: “The development of renewable energy plays a crucial strategic role in the power supply of China. Wind energy growth in China is now on a fast track and globally we believe that wind power will become the primary alternative energy in the future.”

According to the CREIA report, Wind Force 12 in China, China’s current wind energy plan is to reach 20 Gigawatts (GW) (2) by 2020. Germany, the world wind energy leader today, has just under 17GW. However experts within the Chinese industry believe that 40GW can be delivered within 15 years; rising to ten times this by 2050. This scale of wind power would need 20,000 typical modern wind turbines by 2020 and the investment generated could be worth USD 40 billion; putting China on track to become the world’s biggest wind energy market by 2020.


That's 2020 - it's 2007 mate.  How much today?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #34 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:00pm
 
And by the Pacific Region I mean all the countries of the Pacific excluding Asia.

Does that include America?

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't just say 'wrong' - how much power is generated by wind power in China mate?  I am all ears.

Where did you get the 0.001% figure from? Just made it up eh?

That's 2020 - it's 2007 mate.  How much today?

What matters for jobs is how much they are currently investing. We are currently investing zero, which is How Howard killed off our wind energy industry.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #35 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:00pm:
And by the Pacific Region I mean all the countries of the Pacific excluding Asia.

Does that include America?

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't just say 'wrong' - how much power is generated by wind power in China mate?  I am all ears.

Where did you get the 0.001% figure from? Just made it up eh?


No.  I gave you the figures.  If you read what I said you would see that the current amount of power generated by wind compared to the current amount generated by all means in China is .0001%.  I urge you to whip out your calculator and do the math.  I provided the figures.

America is not a Pacific Nation.


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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #36 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:12pm
 
No.  I gave you the figures.  If you read what I said you would see that the current amount of power generated by wind compared to the current amount generated by all means in China is .0001%.  I urge you to whip out your calculator and do the math.  I provided the figures.

No you didn't. You gave one of several figures necessary to calculate 0.001%

America is not a Pacific Nation.

So basically you want us to pat ourselves on the back for outperforming a bunch of pacific islands? Or perhaps you want to be more specific?

If you reject China's total investment in wind as a meaningful comparison, do you also reject Howard's argument that we shouldn't do anything because our total emissions are insignificant compared to China's?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #37 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:12pm:
No.  I gave you the figures.  If you read what I said you would see that the current amount of power generated by wind compared to the current amount generated by all means in China is .0001%.  I urge you to whip out your calculator and do the math.  I provided the figures.

No you didn't. You gave one of several figures necessary to calculate 0.001%

America is not a Pacific Nation.

So basically you want us to pat ourselves on the back for outperforming a bunch of pacific islands? Or perhaps you want to be more specific?

If you reject China's total investment in wind as a meaningful comparison, do you also reject Howard's argument that we shouldn't do anything because our total emissions are insignificant compared to China's?


Quite right I apologise - I did only post one figure.  The other is "Wind power in China, currently at 1,260 megawatts".

I reckon we should be patting ourselves on the back.  Those wind blasted islands include New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc and yet still we blast them out of the water.  In some states (South Australia for example) wind power makes up a significant portion of the power generated.  We have under construction wind farms which will add 70% more to the current capacity and our farms have very high capacity factors by world standards.  We are world leaders in technological advancement in this area thanks to this government's initiatives.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #38 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:39pm
 
Some of those Islands in the pacific make huge use locally grown of biofuels. Pretty much all of them have far fewer emissions, both in total and on a per capita basis.

You gave one figure as a unit of current and the other as a unit of energy. You can't just divide them.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #39 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 6:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 5:39pm:
Some of those Islands in the pacific make huge use locally grown of biofuels. Pretty much all of them have far fewer emissions, both in total and on a per capita basis.

You gave one figure as a unit of current and the other as a unit of energy. You can't just divide them.


If my figures are wrong (according to you) then let's use yours.   I'm up for it.

According to you "China’s current wind energy plan is to reach 20 Gigawatts (GW) by 2020".  I expect you won't dispute your own figures.  Will you.

According to China's own figures (from their US Embassy site) China's energy requirements at the same time as your projected figures (2020) will be "China's consumption of electricity has seen an average growth rate of over 10 percent over the past several years. If it continues to follow this rate, by 2020 China's overall electricity demand will reach 11 trillion kilowatt". Source

Strangely that is still only .001%.

I think your own figures just proved me right.  Thanks.  I expect you will apologise for your scornful remarks.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #40 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 7:11pm
 
You're not having much luck with the whole maths thing are you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

In 2005 it was over 0.1%. It doubled in 2006. Australian companies are over there right now trying to keep up with the demand. This is for a dirt poor country whose per capita emissions are only a tiny fraction of ours.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #41 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 7:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 7:11pm:
You're not having much luck with the whole maths thing are you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

In 2005 it was over 0.1%. It doubled in 2006. Australian companies are over there right now trying to keep up with the demand. This is for a dirt poor country whose per capita emissions are only a tiny fraction of ours.


They're your figures dude.

But post the information that says it is 0.1% if you would.  You keep saying I'm wrong (even though you provided the second set of figures which proved me right) but haven't given the figures which prove me wrong.   Do oblige or I will believe you aren't being honest with your facts.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #42 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 7:58pm
 
Those figures did not prove you right. You got the maths completely wrong. The 0.1% figure is from the wikipedia article.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #43 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 8:02pm
 
If you reject China's total investment in wind as a meaningful comparison, do you also reject Howard's argument that we shouldn't do anything because our total emissions are insignificant compared to China's?

Isn't that one of your favourite sayings? False dichotomy?

You are the one always talking up the per capita emissions as being a key point, yet when it is applied to your argument that Australia is doing nothing in regards to Wind Power you put your hands over your ears and yell 'nahhh,nahhh, nahhh I can't hear you"

And the economies of scale has everything to do with why our companies are targeting this market. If you can't see that then your stupider than your unsubstantiated 'stupid' comment or your just providing spin for your own arguments limited benefit.

Investment in China will always be greater because the potential returns are greater
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #44 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 8:26pm
 
Isn't that one of your favourite sayings? False dichotomy?

That wasn't a dichotomy.

yet when it is applied to your argument that Australia is doing nothing in regards to Wind Power you put your hands over your ears and yell 'nahhh,nahhh, nahhh I can't hear you"

It was a percentage, not per capita. Obviously the per capita emissions are the most important measure. DT go the percentages completely wrong.

And the economies of scale has everything to do with why our companies are targeting this market.

What was described earlier was scale, not economies of scale. If our wind energy was going up at the same rate (in % per year terms) we would not be losing all those jobs to China.

Investment in China will always be greater because the potential returns are greater

That doesn't explain our wind energy companies abandoning Australia for China. Howard government policy does explain it.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #45 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 8:35pm
 
Obviously the per capita emissions are the most important measure.

So you agree then that Australia is hitting above it's weight in regards to per capita wind power generation?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #46 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 8:45pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 7:58pm:
Those figures did not prove you right. You got the maths completely wrong. The 0.1% figure is from the wikipedia article.


So do the maths and tell me where I went wrong.  You appear to be very reluctant to back yourself on this,  All you do is keep saying I'm wrong.    So prove it dude.

And where in the article you posted does it say China has  .1% of their power generated from the wind?  The only time that figure is mentioned in the article is in relation to the US.

Quote:
According to the American Wind Energy Association, wind generated enough electricity to power 0.4% (1.6 million households) of total electricity in US, up from less than 0.1% in 1999.


Don't keep saying everyone is wrong.   Try to show it with some facts.  You are starting to look very dishonest mate.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #47 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:05pm
 
So you agree then that Australia is hitting above it's weight in regards to per capita wind power generation?

No. Well below. We are the highest per capita emitters of greenhouse gasses.

So do the maths and tell me where I went wrong.  You appear to be very reluctant to back yourself on this,  All you do is keep saying I'm wrong.    So prove it dude.

China had 0.1% in 2005. I have no idea where you calculations went wrong.

And where in the article you posted does it say China has  .1%

At the start.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #48 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:05pm:
So you agree then that Australia is hitting above it's weight in regards to per capita wind power generation?

No. Well below. We are the highest per capita emitters of greenhouse gasses.

So do the maths and tell me where I went wrong.  You appear to be very reluctant to back yourself on this,  All you do is keep saying I'm wrong.    So prove it dude.

China had 0.1% in 2005. I have no idea where you calculations went wrong.

And where in the article you posted does it say China has  .1%

At the start.


Quote it if you would.  Don't be shy.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #49 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:19pm
 
I'll simplify it for both of you.

1) China's per capita GHG emissions are only a fraction of ours. They will never reach our current level (though if we pull our finger out and make big cuts, we may end up with roughly the same emissions one day).

2) Despite the lower emissions, China is investing a massive amount in wind (as well as nuclear), at a time when Australia has stopped investing in wind. Howard killed off our wind energy industry and the jobs went to China. This should change under Rudd.

Thus Howard's assertion that we shouldn't do anything unless China does is absurd.

Wind power is not a measure of greenhouse emissions, but the increase in wind power is an indication of a government's efforts to reduce GHG.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #50 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:20pm
 
Why won't you quote where it says China gets .1% of its power from wind?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #51 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:22pm
 
Past tense. That was 2005. It doubled in 2006 and is still going up.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #52 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 10:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:22pm:
Past tense. That was 2005. It doubled in 2006 and is still going up.


Despite me asking you several times to post it you have not.  I can only assume you are lying.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #53 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 10:09pm
 
deep - get used to it.

besides fd not answering questions when he is wrong, he is ok though
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #54 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 10:13pm
 
So you agree then that Australia is hitting above it's weight in regards to per capita wind power generation?

No. Well below. We are the highest per capita emitters of greenhouse gasses.


Roll Eyes Don't obfuscate- answer the question

Does Australia currently have more wind power KW/per capita?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #55 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 5:49am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 23rd, 2007 at 10:09pm:
deep - get used to it.

besides fd not answering questions when he is wrong, he is ok though


I don't really need him to answer a question - my request is not that tough.  I would like him to quote the evidence he relies on is all.  He keeps saying I'm wrong but won't quote the source he uses to make that claim.  And he won't tell me why he reckons my math is wrong even though his own figures prove him wrong.

It's very cowardly of a forum participant to keep saying you are wrong and that the evidence is out there somewhere.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #56 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 9:26am
 
Sorry I just realised I gave the wrong link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_China

Growth rates for wind power in China have far exceeded the world average, although China still lags behind many countries in terms of total wind power installations. In 2005, with a total production of 2.375 TWh, wind, combined with all other renewables except for hydro comprised 0.10013% of the electricity production in China.[1]

A growing local manufacturing base and an increasingly strong policy environment and contributed to China more than doubling of its wind power capacity in 2006, to a total of 2,588 MW.[2]

In 2005 China had the world's largest total investment in renewable energy sources (excluding large scale hydropower plants)

IQ - possibly - the states went a long way with their MRET scheme, but then Howard took it over and killed it off. It's kind of beside the point though, we are still the world's highest emitters of GHG's, we have stopped investment in renewables, and our current PM (for the moment) is pointing his finger at poor countries with lower per capita emissions and bigger per capita renewable energy programs. We do not just need to match the per capita renewables figure, we need to match the per capita emissions. It's a bit of a copout to say you have more wind energy per capita when that's because it is a minute part of a huge energy consumption per capita that has 5 times the per capita emissions. To match China's per capita emissions we would need 80% renewables.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions_per_capita
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #57 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 11:25am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2007 at 9:26am:
Sorry I just realised I gave the wrong link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_China

Growth rates for wind power in China have far exceeded the world average, although China still lags behind many countries in terms of total wind power installations. In 2005, with a total production of 2.375 TWh, wind, combined with all other renewables except for hydro comprised 0.10013% of the electricity production in China.[1]



I expect you will apologise.  That 0.1% you so eagerly kept screeching at me includes all other renewables.  The fact is that wind is only part of it - the others include Geothermal, Solar, Wood and Waste.  I know because I followed the link that you finally provided after all your blustering.

Your apology if you would good sir for saying I was wrong when it is clearly you who is.


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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #58 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 1:19pm
 
It does not include all other renewables. It excludes hydro - the only other significant renewable source employed. The doubling in 2006 and the increase since then is almost exclusively wind power.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #59 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 4:07pm
 
So when is that apology coming?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #60 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 5:03pm
 
IQ - possibly

If you are judging Australia on a per capita emissions basis, then you must also judge on a per capita green energy basis- but you can't keep changing the terms of engagement to suit your particular argument....it shows you up as a hypocrite
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #61 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 5:12pm
 
Aussie also is a major resource centre for the whole world.
A lot of the emmissions made here are done to get resources that are used worldwide.

That has to be factored into account
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #62 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 5:38pm
 
So when is that apology coming?

I already apologised about the wrong URL. Do you want me to whip myself or something?

If you are judging Australia on a per capita emissions basis, then you must also judge on a per capita green energy basis

I think % not per capita makes more sense for renewables. We could match China's per capita wind power but have far higher emissions and a far lower percent of wind power. I wouldn't see any kind of equality in that.

Aussie also is a major resource centre for the whole world.

We like to think we are, but we aren't. We're just slight better off because we only have to share what resources we have with a tiny population.

A lot of the emmissions made here are done to get resources that are used worldwide.

A tiny fraction are. Even to the extent that are, with proper management we can significantly reduce those emissions at little cost.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #63 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 5:56pm
 
I think % not per capita makes more sense for renewables.

How did you get to that conclusion?

We could match China's per capita wind power but have far higher emissions and a far lower percent of wind power. I wouldn't see any kind of equality in that.

I fail to see the equality in your logic
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #64 - Nov 25th, 2007 at 9:29am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 24th, 2007 at 5:38pm:
So when is that apology coming?

I already apologised about the wrong URL. Do you want me to whip myself or something?



It's pretty obvious to me freediver that you won't admit an error.  While you might apologise for providing the wrong URL, when you do finally provide it after several polite requests for a link it turns out you gave the wrong information anyway.  The percentage you spoke of was in fact all renewables bar hydro, not just wind.

Your misrepresentation is noteworthy.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #65 - Nov 25th, 2007 at 2:54pm
 
...

  Grin Cheesy Shocked Cool Huh Tongue Roll Eyes Undecided Cry Lips Sealed Wink Grin Cheesy
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #66 - Nov 25th, 2007 at 6:07pm
 
Australia hasn't been kind to you Horse?
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Economy no longer top issue: pollster
Reply #67 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 10:12am
 
How did you get to that conclusion?

I believe I already explained how. It is the least representative measure of either emissions or efforts to reduce emissions.

I fail to see the equality in your logic

Why should logic have equality?

It's pretty obvious to me freediver that you won't admit an error.  While you might apologise for providing the wrong URL, when you do finally provide it after several polite requests for a link it turns out you gave the wrong information anyway.  The percentage you spoke of was in fact all renewables bar hydro, not just wind.

Do you have any reason to believe that soalr etc are a significant contribution? Just to keep it in perspective, you were out by a factor of 100 on two occasions.



Economy no longer top issue: pollster

http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Economy-no-longer-top-issue-pollster/2007/11/26/1196036770981.html

The Howard government is the first "better economic manager" to lose an election, a leading pollster says.

Newspoll chief executive Martin O'Shannessy said opinion polls during the past year and Saturday's federal election result showed the economy was not the pre-eminent issue it once was with voters.

He partly attributed that to a younger generation of voters with no experience of difficult economic times.

It is the first time since Newspoll began conducting polls in 1985 that a political party has lost an election where they were seen to be leading on the economy.

"Somewhere along the line people's priorities slightly changed," Mr O'Shannessy told Sky News.

Environment, for example, had gained equal status with the economy, he said.

Labor win will not impact market: expert

http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking-news/labor-win-will-not-impact-market-expert/2007/11/25/1195947541321.html

The election of a Labor government posed no immediate risk to Australia's economy and is expected to have little impact on local stock and currency markets, when trading resumes this week.

Federal Labor has inherited an economy with low unemployment, solid growth and a strong budget surplus and promised to maintain a fiscally conservative approach.

Financial market economists say the elevation of Kevin Rudd as prime minister poses little risk to markets, although business may be cautious until it sees the detail of Labor's industrial relations policy.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #68 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 7:55pm
 
How did you get to that conclusion?

I believe I already explained how. It is the least representative measure of either emissions or efforts to reduce emissions.

This is just you ignoring your own methodology because it doesn't suit your particular argument

I fail to see the equality in your logic 

Why should logic have equality?


Sorry- I should have rephrased that. There isn't anything logical about your interpretation of measurement, so I guess that's why there is no equality
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #69 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 8:48pm
 
OK I'll explain the logic to you again. Greenhouse emissions are bad. In comparing groups of people (eg countries), the current GHG emissions per capita are more representative of those people's contribution to the global problem than the total for the group, because the total emissions for a group depends on a relatively meaningless paramter - how big you draw the circle around a group of people.

Both the % of a person's energy consumption from renewables and the total amount of renewable energy they consume are meaningless by themselves as they do not tell you how much GHG a person actually emits. However they are a measure of a person's efforts to reduce emissions. The % is a better measure of this effort. For example, two people may consume the same amount of wind power, but this could represent 100% of one person's power consumption and 1% of anothers (with the other 99% coming from coal). Comparing their consumption of reneable enrgy would imply some kind of equality, but comparing the percentage gets you far closer to the truth of the matter.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #70 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 9:11pm
 
comparing the percentage gets you far closer to the truth of the matter.

The truth as you see it
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #71 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 9:58pm
 
The truth as any rational person would see it. Do you agree that in the example I gave, the % is a far better measure?

You cannot come up with a single example where the per capita reneable energy consumption is a better measure either of emissions or efforts to reduce them. Go on, try it. You cannot even make one up.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #72 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 10:10pm
 
It's about applying the same standard that you endorse to the establishment of renewables. It's about take up of the existing technology. You chop and change because it doesn't suit you argument...nothing more, nothing less
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #73 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 10:48pm
 
I have never said that per capita consumption of renewable energy is a better measure of anything than % takeup of renewables. I may have quoted them in reference to China when that was what I found on other sites, but for any comparison on per capita renewables between China and Australia, a comparison based on % renewables is going to look more favourable for China, for the simple reason that they are emitting less per capita so don't need as much renewables to replace that. I'm not sure why you are getting all hung up on that. No sane person would expect those who are causing less harm to do more offsetting and call it fair.

Remember, this is ultimately about redeucing GHG emissions, not takeup of renewables. Just because I mention takeup of renewables does not mean I am saying it is a more important measure.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #74 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:11pm
 
I'm not getting hung up- just wanting fair representation when erroneous statistics are quoted or implied

No sane person would expect those who are causing less harm to do more offsetting and call it fair.

LOL...there you go again.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #75 - Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:23pm
 
IQSRLOW wrote on Nov 26th, 2007 at 11:11pm:
I'm not getting hung up- just wanting fair representation when erroneous statistics are quoted or implied

No sane person would expect those who are causing less harm to do more offsetting and call it fair.

LOL...there you go again.



See that dead horse IQ?  Go and flog the smackitty testicles out of it.

Freediver stretches his truth and then acts affronted when you point it out.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #76 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 9:13am
 
IQ, it was Deepthought who was out by a factor of 100 with his 'statistics'.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #77 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 12:41pm
 
deepthought wrote on Nov 25th, 2007 at 6:07pm:
Australia hasn't been kind to you Horse?

If Johnny wasn't pro-Nuclear he wouldn't get so much shite from me...but he is and he will!

  Cheesy Grin Wink Tongue Huh Shocked Cool
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #78 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 1:59pm
 
Economy and ecology have the same Greek root.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #79 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 5:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 9:13am:
IQ, it was Deepthought who was out by a factor of 100 with his 'statistics'.


I was spot on - you lied about the figures dude.  You reckoned wind accounted for .1% (according to your source) and you were actually misrepresenting the source you relied on because it said "wind, combined with all other renewables except for hydro comprised 0.10013% of the electricity production in China"

Own up mate.   You lied, you can't make yourself look righteous later.  The record stands.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #80 - Nov 27th, 2007 at 6:16pm
 
OK, if you want to be really anal about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_China

2,588 MW of WIND energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

2.8344 trillion kWh total energy in 2006, corresponds to 320 000 MW

So, that's about 1% WIND energy, not 0.001% as you claimed. You were not spot on, you were out by a factor of about 100. The fact that the first figure included a small amount of other renewables hardly made up for that factor of 100 error. You just got the maths wrong. Twice.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #81 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:21pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 6:16pm:
OK, if you want to be really anal about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_China

2,588 MW of WIND energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

2.8344 trillion kWh total energy in 2006, corresponds to 320 000 MW

So, that's about 1% WIND energy, not 0.001% as you claimed. You were not spot on, you were out by a factor of about 100. The fact that the first figure included a small amount of other renewables hardly made up for that factor of 100 error. You just got the maths wrong. Twice.

Ahem, isn't that a factor of 1000?
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #82 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:25pm
 
BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:21pm:
freediver wrote on Nov 27th, 2007 at 6:16pm:
OK, if you want to be really anal about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_China

2,588 MW of WIND energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_People's_Republic_of_China

2.8344 trillion kWh total energy in 2006, corresponds to 320 000 MW

So, that's about 1% WIND energy, not 0.001% as you claimed. You were not spot on, you were out by a factor of about 100. The fact that the first figure included a small amount of other renewables hardly made up for that factor of 100 error. You just got the maths wrong. Twice.

Ahem, isn't that a factor of 1000?


Quite right.   freediver has misrepresented the facts by a factor of 1,000.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #83 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:26pm
 
I was being generous. The previous figure I got from the first wikipedia page was for an earlier year based on the actual amount produced. It was 0.1%.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #84 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:26pm:
I was being generous. The previous figure I got from the first wikipedia page was for an earlier year based on the actual amount produced. It was 0.1%.


Which also happened to include every other source of renewable energy electrical power generation bar hydro.  So we know 0.1% can't be true for wind alone.  You already agreed you forgot to post the correct URL which would have revealed the truth.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #85 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:38pm
 
Both figures could be true. One is for actual power produced, the other is based on installed capacity after a huge additional investment to increase wind power.

Ate the very least, it is nowhere near 0.001%
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #86 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:43pm
 
Both figures could be true.

LOL  Grin
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #87 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:38pm:
Both figures could be true. One is for actual power produced, the other is based on installed capacity after a huge additional investment to increase wind power.

Ate the very least, it is nowhere near 0.001%


Or one of them could be untrue.   And we know you slithered all over the place so you aren't looking too honest at the moment.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #88 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:53pm
 
Fpr someone who was out by a factor of 100 you are being very pedantic about it.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #89 - Nov 28th, 2007 at 10:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:53pm:
Fpr someone who was out by a factor of 100 you are being very pedantic about it.


While it is possible, and I say this without prejudice, that I may not be brilliant with a calculator I did not misrepresent the facts, nor squirm mightily when asked to produce links and or quotes.

You did both.  You're hardly in a position to call me pedantic when you repeatedly ignored my polite requests to back your wild claims.  And then kept telling me the wrong URL was where the information could be found.
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #90 - Dec 14th, 2007 at 1:47am
 
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:53pm:
Fpr someone who was out by a factor of 100 you are being very pedantic about it.


Yes I quite agree, verry shallow and pedantic

Grin
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #91 - Dec 14th, 2007 at 6:06am
 
Labor_Man wrote on Dec 14th, 2007 at 1:47am:
freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:53pm:
Fpr someone who was out by a factor of 100 you are being very pedantic about it.


Yes I quite agree, verry shallow and pedantic

Grin



Welcome to the show LM, I expect pedantry is preferable to hypocrisy.  At least with pedantry one sticks to one's facts while  . . . .

freediver wrote on Nov 28th, 2007 at 9:38pm:
Both figures could be true.


Now what can you make of that lack of pedantry?  A bit shallow to concede I could be right while suggesting everyone can be right at the same time?

Grin
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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #92 - Dec 24th, 2007 at 1:15pm
 
IQSRLOW wrote on Nov 24th, 2007 at 5:56pm:
I think % not per capita makes more sense for renewables.

How did you get to that conclusion?

We could match China's per capita wind power but have far higher emissions and a far lower percent of wind power. I wouldn't see any kind of equality in that.

I fail to see the equality in your logic


Wouldn't percentage be akin to per capita?!?
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China poised to be world leader in renewable energ
Reply #93 - Jan 10th, 2008 at 2:27pm
 
http://news.smh.com.au/china-poised-to-be-world-leader-in-renewable-energy-expert-predicts/20080110-1l6h.html

China is poised to become a global leader in renewable energy in the next few years, the head of environmental research group Worldwatch said Wednesday.

"I think China will be number one in less than three years in every renewable energy market in the world," Worldwatch president Chris Flavin told reporters at the launch of the annual "State of the World" report.
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