Australian Politics Forum - "We are a society not just an economy"

deepthought

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #30 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 4:30pm

freediver wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2007 at 9:07pm:

It has nothing to do with economies of scale. We aren't taking our coal fired plants over to China because of economies of scale. The Howard government killed off the Australian wind power industry. It's as simple as that.

It has a great deal to do with economies of scale.

China's energy requirements are frightening. Today they produce approx 2,000,000,000,000 Kwh of electricity - that's 2 thousand billion Kwh. That's far more than the rest of Asia combined.

Wind power makes up less than .001%. Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!! It's pathetically small as a percentage of the total.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region. We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined. In fact we generate more electricity using wind power than Latin America, the Carribean, North Africa, Egypt and Morocco combined. Under John Howard we have seen huge growth in alternative energies.

But still we generate only a little over half of China's output.

It's called 'economies of scale' as IQ pointed out. They don't seem to do much as a percentage - but the quantum is massive.

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freediver

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #31 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 4:36pm

Wind power makes up less than .001%. Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!!

Wrong. Wind had already made up more than 100 times that amount a few years back, before they started ramping up wind power.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region. We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined.

Crap. What do you mean by pacific region anyway? Just the little Islands?

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/releases/china-has-potential-to-be-worl

Beijing, China — On the eve of the Beijing International Renewable Energy Conference (BIREC)(1), a new report released by the Chinese Renewable Energy Industries Association (CREIA) and sponsored by Greenpeace and the European Wind Energy Association (EWEA) shows that China could at least double its current wind energy target for 2020

Energy Bureau Director of the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), Xu Dingming said: “The development of renewable energy plays a crucial strategic role in the power supply of China. Wind energy growth in China is now on a fast track and globally we believe that wind power will become the primary alternative energy in the future.”

According to the CREIA report, Wind Force 12 in China, China’s current wind energy plan is to reach 20 Gigawatts (GW) (2) by 2020. Germany, the world wind energy leader today, has just under 17GW. However experts within the Chinese industry believe that 40GW can be delivered within 15 years; rising to ten times this by 2050. This scale of wind power would need 20,000 typical modern wind turbines by 2020 and the investment generated could be worth USD 40 billion; putting China on track to become the world’s biggest wind energy market by 2020.

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« Last Edit: Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 4:53pm by freediver »

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deepthought

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #32 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 4:57pm

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 4:36pm:

Wind power makes up less than .001%. Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!!

Wrong. Wind had already made up more than 100 times that amount a few years back, before they started ramping up wind power.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region. We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined.

Crap. What do you mean by pacific region anyway? Just the little Islands?

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't just say 'wrong' - how much power is generated by wind power in China mate? I am all ears.

And by the Pacific Region I mean all the countries of the Pacific excluding Asia.

Australia is far and away ahead of China - we produce about 1% of energy from wind. That's about a thousand times greater than China as a percentage of total power generation. The Howard government has made major leaps forward.

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deepthought

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #33 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 4:58pm

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 4:36pm:

Wind power makes up less than .001%. Less than point zero zero 1 percent!!!!

Wrong. Wind had already made up more than 100 times that amount a few years back, before they started ramping up wind power.

And Australia's wind power generation is massive by the standards of the region. We generate almost as much as the entire Pacific Region combined.

Crap. What do you mean by pacific region anyway? Just the little Islands?

http://www.greenpeace.org/international/press/releases/china-has-potential-to-be-worl

Beijing, China — On the eve of the Beijing International Renewable Energy Conference (BIREC)(1), a new report released by the Chinese Renewable Energy Industries Association (CREIA) and sponsored by Greenpeace and the European Wind Energy Association (EWEA) shows that China could at least double its current wind energy target for 2020

Energy Bureau Director of the National Development and Reform Commission (NDRC), Xu Dingming said: “The development of renewable energy plays a crucial strategic role in the power supply of China. Wind energy growth in China is now on a fast track and globally we believe that wind power will become the primary alternative energy in the future.”

According to the CREIA report, Wind Force 12 in China, China’s current wind energy plan is to reach 20 Gigawatts (GW) (2) by 2020. Germany, the world wind energy leader today, has just under 17GW. However experts within the Chinese industry believe that 40GW can be delivered within 15 years; rising to ten times this by 2050. This scale of wind power would need 20,000 typical modern wind turbines by 2020 and the investment generated could be worth USD 40 billion; putting China on track to become the world’s biggest wind energy market by 2020.

That's 2020 - it's 2007 mate. How much today?

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freediver

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #34 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:00pm

And by the Pacific Region I mean all the countries of the Pacific excluding Asia.

Does that include America?

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't just say 'wrong' - how much power is generated by wind power in China mate? I am all ears.

Where did you get the 0.001% figure from? Just made it up eh?

That's 2020 - it's 2007 mate. How much today?

What matters for jobs is how much they are currently investing. We are currently investing zero, which is How Howard killed off our wind energy industry.

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deepthought

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #35 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:03pm

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:00pm:

And by the Pacific Region I mean all the countries of the Pacific excluding Asia.

Does that include America?

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't just say 'wrong' - how much power is generated by wind power in China mate? I am all ears.

Where did you get the 0.001% figure from? Just made it up eh?

No. I gave you the figures. If you read what I said you would see that the current amount of power generated by wind compared to the current amount generated by all means in China is .0001%. I urge you to whip out your calculator and do the math. I provided the figures.

America is not a Pacific Nation.

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #36 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:12pm

No. I gave you the figures. If you read what I said you would see that the current amount of power generated by wind compared to the current amount generated by all means in China is .0001%. I urge you to whip out your calculator and do the math. I provided the figures.

No you didn't. You gave one of several figures necessary to calculate 0.001%

America is not a Pacific Nation.

So basically you want us to pat ourselves on the back for outperforming a bunch of pacific islands? Or perhaps you want to be more specific?

If you reject China's total investment in wind as a meaningful comparison, do you also reject Howard's argument that we shouldn't do anything because our total emissions are insignificant compared to China's?

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deepthought

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #37 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:28pm

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:12pm:

No. I gave you the figures. If you read what I said you would see that the current amount of power generated by wind compared to the current amount generated by all means in China is .0001%. I urge you to whip out your calculator and do the math. I provided the figures.

No you didn't. You gave one of several figures necessary to calculate 0.001%

America is not a Pacific Nation.

So basically you want us to pat ourselves on the back for outperforming a bunch of pacific islands? Or perhaps you want to be more specific?

If you reject China's total investment in wind as a meaningful comparison, do you also reject Howard's argument that we shouldn't do anything because our total emissions are insignificant compared to China's?

Quite right I apologise - I did only post one figure. The other is "Wind power in China, currently at 1,260 megawatts".

I reckon we should be patting ourselves on the back. Those wind blasted islands include New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji etc and yet still we blast them out of the water. In some states (South Australia for example) wind power makes up a significant portion of the power generated. We have under construction wind farms which will add 70% more to the current capacity and our farms have very high capacity factors by world standards. We are world leaders in technological advancement in this area thanks to this government's initiatives.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47453 At my desk.	Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti Reply #38 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:39pm Some of those Islands in the pacific make huge use locally grown of biofuels. Pretty much all of them have far fewer emissions, both in total and on a per capita basis. You gave one figure as a unit of current and the other as a unit of energy. You can't just divide them.
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deepthought

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #39 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 6:58pm

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 5:39pm:

Some of those Islands in the pacific make huge use locally grown of biofuels. Pretty much all of them have far fewer emissions, both in total and on a per capita basis.

You gave one figure as a unit of current and the other as a unit of energy. You can't just divide them.

If my figures are wrong (according to you) then let's use yours. I'm up for it.

According to you "China’s current wind energy plan is to reach 20 Gigawatts (GW) by 2020". I expect you won't dispute your own figures. Will you.

According to China's own figures (from their US Embassy site) China's energy requirements at the same time as your projected figures (2020) will be "China's consumption of electricity has seen an average growth rate of over 10 percent over the past several years. If it continues to follow this rate, by 2020 China's overall electricity demand will reach 11 trillion kilowatt". Source

Strangely that is still only .001%.

I think your own figures just proved me right. Thanks. I expect you will apologise for your scornful remarks.

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #40 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 7:11pm

You're not having much luck with the whole maths thing are you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

In 2005 it was over 0.1%. It doubled in 2006. Australian companies are over there right now trying to keep up with the demand. This is for a dirt poor country whose per capita emissions are only a tiny fraction of ours.

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deepthought

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #41 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 7:15pm

freediver wrote on Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 7:11pm:

You're not having much luck with the whole maths thing are you?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power

In 2005 it was over 0.1%. It doubled in 2006. Australian companies are over there right now trying to keep up with the demand. This is for a dirt poor country whose per capita emissions are only a tiny fraction of ours.

They're your figures dude.

But post the information that says it is 0.1% if you would. You keep saying I'm wrong (even though you provided the second set of figures which proved me right) but haven't given the figures which prove me wrong. Do oblige or I will believe you aren't being honest with your facts.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47453 At my desk.	Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti Reply #42 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 7:58pm Those figures did not prove you right. You got the maths completely wrong. The 0.1% figure is from the wikipedia article.
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IQSRLOW

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #43 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 8:02pm

If you reject China's total investment in wind as a meaningful comparison, do you also reject Howard's argument that we shouldn't do anything because our total emissions are insignificant compared to China's?

Isn't that one of your favourite sayings? False dichotomy?

You are the one always talking up the per capita emissions as being a key point, yet when it is applied to your argument that Australia is doing nothing in regards to Wind Power you put your hands over your ears and yell 'nahhh,nahhh, nahhh I can't hear you"

And the economies of scale has everything to do with why our companies are targeting this market. If you can't see that then your stupider than your unsubstantiated 'stupid' comment or your just providing spin for your own arguments limited benefit.

Investment in China will always be greater because the potential returns are greater

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freediver

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Re: "We are a society not just an economy" - parti
Reply #44 - Nov 23^rd, 2007 at 8:26pm

Isn't that one of your favourite sayings? False dichotomy?

That wasn't a dichotomy.

yet when it is applied to your argument that Australia is doing nothing in regards to Wind Power you put your hands over your ears and yell 'nahhh,nahhh, nahhh I can't hear you"

It was a percentage, not per capita. Obviously the per capita emissions are the most important measure. DT go the percentages completely wrong.

And the economies of scale has everything to do with why our companies are targeting this market.

What was described earlier was scale, not economies of scale. If our wind energy was going up at the same rate (in % per year terms) we would not be losing all those jobs to China.

Investment in China will always be greater because the potential returns are greater

That doesn't explain our wind energy companies abandoning Australia for China. Howard government policy does explain it.

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