Australian Politics Forum - Is atheism a religious belief?

aikmann4

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #480 - Oct 16^th, 2010 at 7:55pm

Soren wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 7:24pm:

aikmann4 wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 6:07pm:

We may be very sophisticated apes with a remarkable amount of neuroplasticity , but we're still apes at the end of the day.

Stephen Pinker had a really good book about this.

The trouble with this notion is that despite the very large percentage of biological commonality with apes (is it 90%? 95%?) we are so fantastically different from them that whatever the disrepancy is in biology, it cannot possibly account for the incredible gap between us and the nearest animals. They just could not even begin to engage with ideas like "where do bananas come from, dad?"

I dunno, they seem pretty clever to me. They even dress themselves in formal attire.

We're obviously very different from apes. I was just referring to the obvious behavioral commonalities we hold with chimps, as these ones tend to strongly relate to my statement about 'all the things bad in the world'. Many of those things are a consequence of our Simian heritage; the more atavistic aspects of our brains that have stuck with us even following the advent of civilization.

Getting rid of some of these instincts seems to have worked especially well. Other attempts have been spectacular clusterf*ck failures that have led to the deaths of hundreds of millions of people. Most people skate over the crimes of the Marxists of the 20th century as if there is no "bad side" to behavioral environmentalism; it's only the National Socialists that people seem to remember. Stalin, Mao, etc. (or at least the things that motivated them) all seem to have disappeared down the memory hole.

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« Last Edit: Oct 16^th, 2010 at 10:23pm by aikmann4 »

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Amadd

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #481 - Oct 16^th, 2010 at 11:06pm

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And I fear that certain other projects we're the guinea pigs for now are likewise leading to disaster, where they have not already, of course.

Yeah it's become an experiment that's now too big to be allowed to fail, we must keep believing in the unbelievable until reality strikes.

Quote:

It's a club that I don't want to join.

There may be those who treat it as a club nowadays, but there was never any specific intent, doctrine or belief that one had to follow in order to join an atheist club.
You are generally told that you are in this club because of your choosing to not pay membership fees to any other club.

If you believe in Deism and that there is a divine creator who doesn't interfere with human activity, then I'd assume that to mean that you don't want to follow any religious doctrine in it's entirety, but you'll go some way to appease religions as opposed to any specific belief that you have (via thought and reason) in a non-interventionist God.

Bill Mayer is seen as an athiest of the highest order, yet his opinion is that he follows the religion of "I don't know". He also believes that other people as human as himself don't possess any special powers that he does not, so it follows that they probably don't know either.

Richard Dawkins also leaves the possibility open for an interventionist God.
But first you need to define what people are supposed to be believing in.
I have no clue as to any real definition of God, an atheist, or how strictly one must believe in and follow any religious doctrine.

The answer of "I don't know", seems the correct one for me when talking about the yadda yadda. I'd like to know, but I don't need to know.

But a lot of people need to know don't they?
For maybe obvious reasons, or maybe not, they need to know that they have all of the answers, even if those answers are ridiculous.i

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mellie Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 8142 Sydney Gender:	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #482 - Oct 16^th, 2010 at 11:24pm The ABC's of a religious order dictate in order for it to be a religion, it much have the following... A: Assurance- Promise of reward, salvation for believing. B: Belief- Must have a theological basis. C: Convert- It strives to convert others.
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Bobby.

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #483 - Oct 16^th, 2010 at 11:27pm

Soren wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 7:24pm:

aikmann4 wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 6:07pm:

We may be very sophisticated apes with a remarkable amount of neuroplasticity , but we're still apes at the end of the day.

Stephen Pinker had a really good book about this.

The trouble with this notion is that despite the very large percentage of biological commonality with apes (is it 90%? 95%?) we are so fantastically different from them that whatever the disrepancy is in biology, it cannot possibly account for the incredible gap between us and the nearest animals. They just could not even begin to engage with ideas like "where do bananas come from, dad?"

It's hard to say why for instance -
if you put a chimp in school with humans when it was very young
as to why it couldn't learn to read & write.
Sure - it wouldn't be able to speak but what about reading & writing?

We are very different in our ability to learn &
yet we share 99% of their DNA.

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aikmann4

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #484 - Oct 16^th, 2010 at 11:41pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 11:27pm:

Soren wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 7:24pm:

aikmann4 wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 6:07pm:

We may be very sophisticated apes with a remarkable amount of neuroplasticity , but we're still apes at the end of the day.

Stephen Pinker had a really good book about this.

The trouble with this notion is that despite the very large percentage of biological commonality with apes (is it 90%? 95%?) we are so fantastically different from them that whatever the disrepancy is in biology, it cannot possibly account for the incredible gap between us and the nearest animals. They just could not even begin to engage with ideas like "where do bananas come from, dad?"

It's hard to say why for instance -
if you put a chimp in school with humans when it was very young
as to why it couldn't learn to read & write.
Sure - it wouldn't be able to speak but what about reading & writing?

We are very different in our ability to learn &
yet we share 99% of their DNA.

The capacity for language acquistion in human beings, which itself is not so much a learned trait as it is a fundamentally intrinsic human behavior, may be made possible by a slight, subtle variation in a single gene. Apes have this gene as well, but the slight differences in the human variant of it may make speech and language possible. I doubt it's anywhere near this simple, though. It's one of those remarkable sounding things that would just be cool if it was true.

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« Last Edit: Oct 16^th, 2010 at 11:50pm by aikmann4 »

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Amadd

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #485 - Oct 17^th, 2010 at 12:10am

Fair enough assertion there.

I believe that to be a true atheist, it is not of your conscious choosing.
You must be thrust into the category of atheism by theists.

Little Johnny doesn't say, "When I grow up, I want to be an atheist priest". That would be stupid.
However, it would be quite honourable for little Johnny to say "When I grow up, I want to be a Catholic priest", even though little Johnny may have previously been raped by a Catholic priest or seen little Harold raped by a Catholic priest.

IMO, atheism is not a calling or a choice, it's just a label of no personal significance whatsoever.

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« Last Edit: Oct 17^th, 2010 at 12:20am by Amadd »

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Bobby.

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #486 - Oct 17^th, 2010 at 12:39am

Imperium.
Quote:

The capacity for language acquistion in human beings, which itself is not so much a learned trait as it is a fundamentally intrinsic human behavior, may be made possible by a slight, subtle variation in a single gene. Apes have this gene as well, but the slight differences in the human variant of it may make speech and language possible. I doubt it's anywhere near this simple, though. It's one of those remarkable sounding things that would just be cool if it was true.

I don't think it's just one gene.
We are so totally different to any other creature &
yet out DNA is almost the same.

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aikmann4

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #487 - Oct 17^th, 2010 at 5:58am

Quote:

Recent studies have shown that chimpanzees engage in apparently altruistic behaviour within groups, but are indifferent to the welfare of unrelated group members.

Quote:

Evidence for "chimpanzee spirituality" includes display of mourning, "incipient romantic love", "rain dance", appreciation of natural beauty such as a sunset over a lake, curiosity and respect towards wildlife (such as the python, which is neither a threat nor a food source to chimpanzees), empathy toward other species (such as feeding turtles) and even "animism" or "pretend play" in chimps cradling and grooming rocks or sticks

Quote:

Chimps communicate in a manner similar to human non-verbal communication, using vocalizations, hand gestures, and facial expressions. Research into the chimpanzee brain has revealed that chimp communication activates an area of the chimp brain that is in the same position as Broca's area, the language center in the human brain

Quote:

Chimpanzees live in large multi-male and multi-female social groups called communities. Within a community there is a definite social hierarchy which is dictated by the position of an individual and the influence the individual has on others.

Our ability for language is one of our most distinguishing features. We are very different but share much in common. Chimps are very sophisticated dudes.

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athos Gold Member Offline Re-educate barbarians Posts: 6412 Hong Kong Gender:	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #488 - Oct 17^th, 2010 at 8:30am freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2007 at 2:36pm: Is atheism a religious belief? In accordance with http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1287011937 atheism is sort of mental disorder.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #489 - Oct 17^th, 2010 at 8:43am athos wrote on Oct 17^th, 2010 at 8:30am: freediver wrote on Nov 7^th, 2007 at 2:36pm: Is atheism a religious belief? In accordance with http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1287011937 atheism is sort of mental disorder. Life is the mental disorder
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muso

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #490 - Oct 17^th, 2010 at 8:47am

mellie wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 11:24pm:

The ABC's of a religious order dictate in order for it to be a religion, it much have the following...

A: Assurance- Promise of reward, salvation for believing.
B: Belief- Must have a theological basis.
C: Convert- It strives to convert others.

So Hinduism, Buddism, Jainism etc are not religions on that basis?

Neither is Christianity, apparently.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/notrel.html

Atheism is a religious belief ( a position on theistic religious belief), but it isn't a religion per se.

The question of salvation for believing would appear to apply only to Protestant Christianity, but since Christians have already said that Christianity is not a religion, what are we left with ?

Facebook says that washing your car can be a religion:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=59553234675

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Soren

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #491 - Oct 18^th, 2010 at 9:33am

muso wrote on Oct 17^th, 2010 at 8:47am:

Facebook says that washing your car can be a religion:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=59553234675

Therefore not washing your car can also be a religion. Not having a car is also a form of devotion, as is having one.
Religion is the only set that both includes and excludes 'religion'.

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muso

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #492 - Oct 18^th, 2010 at 10:59am

My post was intended to provoke thought. I don't believe that we can adequately define the term 'religion' in such a way as to include all world religions.

Given that premise, I think if somebody wants to call one of their pastimes a religion, then who am I to argue?

Maybe I should get a goldfish and call it 'religion'.

In the same way, I don't think you can define, or even begin to characterise God in any meaningful way unless (1) you believe in one, and (2) she speaks to you all the time.

Apart from that, they (gods) are all different, so if you try to speak in meaningful generalities about some kind of average God, you end up in a screaming heap. The same goes for the antithesis. Atheism is meaningless.

Religion Term Paper
~~~~~~~~~~~~
(All workings must be shown, however mysterious they may be)

1.What is the average of one 1kilo of cheese and 1 kilo of chalk? Please provide an answer in terms of either chalk or cheese?

2. Convert 500grams of cheese into chalk.

3. Convert one Ephah of Water into wine.

(Any Students who successfully complete question 3 must be reported to the authorities immediately. The appropriate punishment is death by crucifixion )

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« Last Edit: Oct 18^th, 2010 at 11:12am by muso »

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Amadd

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #493 - Oct 18^th, 2010 at 3:49pm

Quote:

In the same way, I don't think you can define, or even begin to characterise God in any meaningful way unless (1) you believe in one, and (2) she speaks to you all the time.

I don't think that it is possible to believe or disbelieve anything unless you have some clear definition of what you're supposed to be believing in.

To me, it's pretty clear that when we're speaking of "God", we are speaking of an interventionist God or Gods.
I'm happy to carry on as though one doesn't exist, however, it is nice at times such as weddings or funerals to suspend that disbelief and feel the spirit of people around you...although I can't stand those damned hymns.

Funerals especially, bring about a closure through the church which would be sorely missed if they were no longer available.
I always do my best to attend the funerals of those I've known and for the parents of close friends as it helps provide comfort to others and also helps to bring about an acceptance of the passing.
If I were to attend an atheist funeral, or indeed a deist funeral, I don't think that it would provide anywhere near what a religious service can and does, so I'm glad that there are still so many believers around.

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muso

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #494 - Oct 18^th, 2010 at 4:05pm

Amadd wrote on Oct 18^th, 2010 at 3:49pm:

If I were to attend an atheist funeral, or indeed a deist funeral, I don't think that it would provide anywhere near what a religious service can and does, so I'm glad that there are still so many believers around.

Yeah. I agree. We should try to preserve religions. Some religions are becoming endangered. We're losing a lot of our old traditions, and they are being replaced by pseudo new age nonsense with absolutely no moral principles.

Apart from that, so much of our cultural heritage is tied up in religions, not to mention social stability.

On the whole, I think they do more good than harm. Now that's bound to elicit a response from our atheistic zealots. Grin

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