Australian Politics Forum - Is atheism a religious belief?

Musician35

Ex Member

Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #45 - Feb 24^th, 2008 at 1:12pm

"The movement's three major aims are:

1. Promote the civic understanding and acknowledgment of the naturalistic worldview, which is free of supernatural and mystical elements.
2. Gain public recognition that persons who hold such a worldview can bring principled actions to bear on matters of civic importance.
3. Educate society toward accepting the full and equitable civic participation of all such individuals."

The Brights are therefore specifically not anti-religion, and there are a few Deists and Buddhists there. That's one thing that appeals to me. Having said that, I'm not really a 'joiner'. I think as an individual. The people on the Brights forum irritate me, probably because they are as individualistic as I am (strange as it may sound). Nobody really agrees on much over there. It has been described as trying to 'herd cats'.

I guess they have more of a barrow to push in the US of A, where people have a general suspicion of the non religious. Here in Australia, the general unwashed unreligious is a relatively large part of society, with about the same numbers as the Roman Catholic segment. You can say that you're an 'atheist' or 'agnostic' here with no big deal.

I don't think religion, race or sexuality have anything to do with how ethical a life you live. I think that's more to do with your upbringing and your nature. (nature and nurture)

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Ray_A Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 334 Gender:	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #46 - Feb 24^th, 2008 at 1:19pm This Dennett interview gives some insight into his motivation: http://www.beliefnet.com/story/187/story_18772.html
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Cracticus

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #47 - Feb 24^th, 2008 at 2:21pm

The US 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that atheism was a religion in August 2005. That court is not an authority recognised world-wide, of course; but it is one respected for its reputation for actually considering argument and thinking about an issue before delivering judgement. A better authority than the "Go back to your bong" non-thinker, methinks.

Logic tells those of us who can think logically that atheism must be a form of religion. Its proponents claim to have the answer, and are prepared to brook no argument. Just as the theist claims to know categorically that there is a God, the atheists claim to know categorically that there is none. Neither is willing to think about the question.

The deist concludes from evidence that there must be a Creator, or there could be no creation. The pantheist supposes that the sum total of existence must be tantamount to a God. The agnostic recognises that there can, on existing evidence, be no definitive answer to the question. His or hers is the only sensible and open-minded, truly non-religious conclusion.

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Ray_A

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #48 - Feb 24^th, 2008 at 2:45pm

[quote author=Cracticus link=1194410206/45#47 date=1203826868]The US 7th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that atheism was a religion in August 2005. That court is not an authority recognised world-wide, of course; but it is one respected for its reputation for actually considering argument and thinking about an issue before delivering judgement. [/quote]

I've always said, "there are atheists, and there are atheists". The passive atheist (who cares not whether there's a god, nor for religion) is different to the active atheist, who [i]does[/i] care, and who pro-actively proselytes against religion or belief in God. They want their [i]beliefs[/i] transcendent, because in our speck in the Milky Way Galaxy, they have a corner on "truth".

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50566 At my desk.	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #49 - Feb 24^th, 2008 at 3:14pm Thanks for that Cracticus, and welcome to OzPolitic.
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Musician35

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #50 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:06am

Having said that, the US has lost a lot of its credibility in the international arena with the antics of the "Crime Family Bush" and the politicisation of religion.

The US religious landscape is totally different from that in Australia. At least here we have a lot more tolerance.

I prefer the European Convention on Human Rights stance:

Article 9 – Freedom of thought, conscience and religion1

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.

2. Freedom to manifest one's religion or beliefs shall be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of public safety, for the protection of public order, health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.

This is actually a serious issue for certain religious sects, including Muslims and extreme Christian sects like the Brethren. Apostates face persecution, which may include total withdrawal of contact from their families, abuse, or even death threats.

Ray -

The passive atheist (who cares not whether there's a god, nor for religion) is different to the active atheist, who does care, and who pro-actively proselytes against religion or belief in God. They want their beliefs transcendent, because in our speck in the Milky Way Galaxy, they have a corner on "truth".

That about sums it up. I can't see how passive atheism could qualify as a religion. An active atheist as you describe could possibly qualify as being 'religious', but that's just a small sub-set of the total belief system. Most atheists and agnostics couldn't care less about trying to convert people. In my experience, the most fervent 'froth at the mouth' atheists are ex Baptists

As an illustration, I bought my wife (who is Roman Catholic) some rosary beads when we visited the Vatican city. I don't think an active atheist would do that?

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« Last Edit: Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:17am by N/A »

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Musician35

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #51 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:39am

[quote author=Cracticus link=1194410206/45#47 date=1203826868]

Its proponents claim to have the answer, and are prepared to brook no argument. Just as the theist claims to know categorically that there is a God, the atheists claim to know categorically that there is none. Neither is willing to think about the question.

[/quote]

That's a gross mischaracterisation. Only a minority of Atheists might 'know categorically' that there is no God. Just as small a proportion of theists claims to know categorically that there is a God, at least in Australia.

There is a wide range of beliefs that can be described as Atheist. Generally speaking an Atheist is a person who doesn't belief in God (usually the Christian God), but you can get strong atheists, weak atheists, implicit atheists, explicit atheists and the list goes on.

This Wikipedia Article gives a bit of a rundown.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist[/url]

It's so broad a term that a Southern Baptist could be described as an atheist (with respect to Ganeesh or Krishna for example)

You can see why I abandoned the term a long time ago.

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« Last Edit: Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:46am by N/A »

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Ray_A

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #52 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 11:46am

Quote:

Most atheists and agnostics couldn't care less about trying to convert people. In my experience, the most fervent 'froth at the mouth' atheists are ex Baptists

My experience with many ex-Mormons is the same. I think this active atheism is largely a reaction to their former "true blue" theist beliefs. It's almost as if they have to actively oppose what they formerly believed, while the passive atheist hardly even thinks about his/her atheism. It's like asking them "why do you eat chocolate ice-cream?"

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50566 At my desk.	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #53 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:38pm I once met a mormon lesbian who attended her own excommunication. She attended in case she ever changed her mind and wanted back in.
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Ray_A

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #54 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:47pm

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:38pm:

I once met a mormon lesbian who attended her own excommunication. She attended in case she ever changed her mind and wanted back in.

Could that be Sue-Ann Post? I have her book but haven't read it yet. She injects a lot of humour and retains a liking for Mormon culture. Her website: http://www.sue-annpost.com.au/

Aussie ex-Mormons tend to differ quite a bit from their American counterparts, some of whom take their ex-Mormonism as seriously as they took their initial Mormon beliefs. Aussie ex-Mormons tend to just get on with their lives and seldom think about it again.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50566 At my desk.	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #55 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 12:48pm I don't think so, but I can't remember her name so it could be. She didn't seem like the sort to write a book.
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Cracticus

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #56 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 1:44pm

Dear Muso, a "[i]gross mischaracterisation[/i]"? No, it isn't. It is an entirely accurate characterisation.

An atheist is one who believes that God does not exist. That is a simple dictionary definition. Note the word "believes". Go off on tangents all you want, there is no such thing as a "wide range" of disbelief. Either one believes in something, or one disbelieves, or one remains undecided. Those are the three possible options. Atheists are ones who have decided to believe that there is no such thing as a God; therefore atheism is a system of belief, just like any other religion.

There are no "strong" or "weak" atheists. Someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a God is not an atheist, but an agnostic. Proselytising and non-proselytising atheists are no different in their beliefs, just as their is no equivalent difference between Christian believers who try to spread their message and ones who do not.

And it is belief in God we are talking about; not belief in any particular religion. It is ridiculous to say that a southern Baptist is an "atheist of" Ganeesh. Theism is belief in the existence of a God; atheism is its opposite: belief in the non-existence of any God, full stop.

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Ray_A Senior Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 334 Gender:	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #57 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 2:08pm [quote author=Cracticus link=1194410206/45#56 date=1203911060] There are no "strong" or "weak" atheists. [/quote] I think you should check out Austin Cline, a prominent atheist commentator: [url]http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm[/url]
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Cracticus New Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 35	Re: Is atheism a religious belief? Reply #58 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 2:22pm I think you should check out Austin Cline, a prominent atheist commentator: [url]http://atheism.about.com/od/atheismquestions/a/strong_weak.htm[/url] [/quote] I've seen it before. It's nonsense. Anyone can write anything they want on the web. It doesn't give it any validity.
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Musician35

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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #59 - Feb 25^th, 2008 at 2:24pm

[quote author=Cracticus link=1194410206/45#56 date=1203911060]Dear Muso, a "[i]gross mischaracterisation[/i]"? No, it isn't. It is an entirely accurate characterisation.

An atheist is one who believes that God does not exist.
[/quote]

That statement is correct, but it wasn't my point. (Did you actually read my post?). Let's see if I can explain:

You used the term [color=#ff3300]"know categorically"[/color]. That was the crux of my argument. An Atheist is not a person who "knows categorically" that God doesn't exist, and a Theist or a Christian is not a person who "knows categorically" that God exists.

As I stated in a previous post, you can believe that the cheque is in the mail , but you won't know it until you get some evidence.

To know and to believe are two different things. As somebody else pointed out, it's even a mainstream Christian belief that it is impossible to know if God exists. That's where faith comes in. To state otherwise is not strictly scriptural.

In that way, the majority of Christians (and the majority of atheists) are also agnostics. I think most people have accepted that an atheist agnostic is a possible combination.

[quote]Atheists are ones who have decided to believe that there is no such thing as a God[/quote]

Again, not necessarily. You're stating that atheists have [b]decided [/b]to believe something. Can you actually decide to believe something like that? I don't think so. You either believe it or not as the case may be.

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