aikmann4 wrote on Oct 15^th, 2010 at 9:59pm:



yet both imply an agent who does the designing or structuring.

aikmann4 wrote on Oct 15^th, 2010 at 9:59pm:


Hmm don't think so Imperium.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/structure

... begs to differ on this occasion.


Here it is reproduced for you  ...

Main Entry:      structure
Part of Speech:      noun
Definition:      makeup, form
Synonyms:      anatomy, architecture, arrangement, build, complex, configuration, conformation, construction, design, fabric, fabrication, format, formation, frame, framework, interrelation, make, morphology, network, order, organization, skeleton, system, texture

Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 15^th, 2010 at 10:16pm:


synonym does not imply identical meaning; it approximates meaning but does not account for the individual subtleties of every word

structure:

anything composed of parts arranged together in some way; an organization.

design:

a plan; scheme; project

design more closely approaches a meaning that suggests that something has been consciously put together (as soren is saying)

the human brain has not been consciously planned/put together

response skater-overer

Amadd wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 5:09am:


It's a club that I don't want to join. Of course a true atheist, strictly defined as a person who doesn't believe in gods, might have less of an issue with non-interventionist gods such as I have described. He would certainly take issue with Pantheists.

Re Walking on water and talking to snakes, virgin births etc  - These are things associated with Theism rather than Deism. Theism is only a subset of the possible interpretations of gods.

A Deist God for example comes without the baggage. Deists generally believe that human beings can only know 'God' (call it the laws of the universe if you will) via reason  and the observation of nature - not by revelation or supernatural manifestations such as miracles or prophesies. These are things that deists generally regard with total skepticism. Their position is that of rationalism with a prime cause. Of course we can't say anything about that prime cause.  

I sometimes feel more affinity with Deists than with the label of Atheist, but I enjoy various religions for their cultural value. However, neither belief in god(s) nor disbelief in gods are important aspects of my life. A non interventionist 'god' can hardly be a driving force in my life, yet I choose a non-extremist moral path which most people would find boring. I choose not to drink or take anything that will affect my rationality. I prefer to keep fit and healthy so that I can enjoy the natural world.  

Deists have a long history of stigmatisation by Christians in particular, often being denounced as atheists or witches.

Deists are also very diverse in views. Some even choose to adopt Christian morality without the revelatory message (and without the smug self-righteousness of the new Evangelicals).

Unfortunately I see the same brand of smug self-assuredness in the new Atheists, and for me, that's an even more compelling reason to disassociate myself from the term Atheist.

You might have a problem, Houston, but I'm quite happy

By the way, Western secularism probably comes to you from Deism, via the US, through such people as Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, who were all Deists. Then of course there were Thomas Paine (author of the Age of Reason) and Ethan Allen.

Did you know that a person selling "The Age of Reason" in England was arrested back in the early 19th century for blasphemy?  

muso wrote on Oct 16^th, 2010 at 6:23am:

Poor old Thomas Paine... Author of "Common Sense", "Rights of Man" and "The Age of Reason", who, more than any other, delivered to the Americans the narrative of what became their political and cultural birthright, was, at the end of his life, despised by nearly everyone... His death mourned at his burial by only 6 people.

No good deed goes unpunished?

[quote author=Imperium2 link=1194410206/465#476 date=1287216461] Quote:

Quote:


Agree (except for the crossed-out bit).  As Tolkein said to CS Lewis while the latter was still a strident atheist: "Atheism is unimaginative".

I think that's where the real difference begins - not at the level of actual understanding. Atheist have no greater understanding of anything in comparison to than the religious.

Quote:


They have a greater understanding than any human child who thinks they come from the supermarket