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Is atheism a religious belief? (Read 129390 times)
aikmann4
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #405 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 4:43pm
 
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Not as smart as the Ashkenazi Jews


That is correct! The Ashkenazim score a staggering one full standard deviation HIGHER than the white mean on IQ tests. The implications of this are that 0.1% of the Ashkenazi have IQs above 160. The incredible and undeniable talent of the Ashkenazim is summed up in the tale of this obscure fellow, possibly the smartest human being who has ever existed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_Sidis

I'm not sure what made the Ashkenazim so intelligent in the first place, but I have my guesses. The "hard to survive" hypothesis seems viable, but other types of Jews, like the Sephardic Jews, are nowhere near as talented. I think their brilliance may be in part due to my hypothesis of culture as kind of a biological feedback loop where traits that are highly valued (in the case of the Ashkenazim, the ability to read the Torah, etc) become highly selected for within that particular culture and give rise over many generations to amazing talent.

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The question is - given the ravages of disease that are currently occuring within Africa and the fact that they have very little Medical care, will the new übermensch emerge from Africa while the Western weaklings perish at the slightest hint of climate change? - or even the shutting down of their local suburban McDonalds? (apart from Bob Katter of course - Bob Katter could survive nuclear fallout where no cockroach would have a hope in hell)


Certain African groups already exhibit "ubermensch" qualities in other domains beyond intellect. There is a tribe in Kenya called the Kalenjin who are over 1.5 sigmas above the global mean in long distance running ability. I remember some anecdote about the best runners in Sweden participating in a school marathon against the Kalenjin and being beaten by most of the barefoot children.

...

When it says "Kenyan", it simply means "Kalenjin".

...

.. not sure who was going to win there Cheesy Grin
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #406 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:17pm
 
Imperium, how do you 'work out' a difference between Ashkenazi(European/Aryan) Jews and White men???

The Ashkenazi Jews are white European people who converted to the religion of Judaism.....

They are no less 'white' than any of the other people from Germany, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and the Ukraine....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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aikmann4
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #407 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:23pm
 
The Ashkenazim are distinct from Europeans. They do not cluster with Europeans and at any rate, even if they were *just converts* you have to remember that they did not marry outside of their group so that their lineage has more or less been shielded against outside gene flow for a very long time.

...

Jews cluster together more with Middle Easterners and themselves than Europeans.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #408 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:43pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:23pm:
The Ashkenazim are distinct from Europeans. They do not cluster with Europeans and at any rate, even if they were *just converts* you have to remember that they did not marry outside of their group so that their lineage has more or less been shielded against outside gene flow for a very long time.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2lnghh.gif

Jews cluster together more with Middle Easterners and themselves than Europeans.


Yes, but they were STILL European converts...
It's not like the Ashkenazi Jews were a huge bunch of Middle Eastern people who travelled from 'Palestine' to Eastern Europe....
They were Eastern Europeans who adopted a religion from another area....that doesn't change their genotype, any more than the Muslims in Sarajevo, Bosnia 'suddenly became Arabs, instead of Slavs....

Using your method....all Asian Catholics in the Phillipines must now be considered Italian.....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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aikmann4
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #409 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:49pm
 
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Although the historical record is very limited, there is a scholarly consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East. Jews have lived in Germany, or "Ashkenaz", at least since the early 4th century. They brought with them both Rabbinic Judaism and the Babylonian Talmudic culture that underlies it. Yiddish, once spoken by the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jewry, is a Germanic language that developed from the Middle High German vernacular, heavily influenced by Hebrew and Aramaic.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #410 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:50pm
 
I'm Australian of Irish/Scottish/Welsh descent....If I join the Hindu religion...will I suddenly 'become' Indian????? Or if I embrace the Shinto religion, will I suddenly Japanese??..NO I won't...

Changing religions doesn't change Genotype or race....
You don't become Asian, just because you decide to worship in the Shinto religion, and an African doesn't become Aryan just because he joins the Norse religion...

And you DON'T become Levantian, just because you embrace a Middle Eastern religion....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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aikmann4
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #411 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:51pm
 
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A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[16] found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews  contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture  in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."


Quote:
A 2005 study by Nebel et al., based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe. However, 11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow.[18]
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #412 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 6:08pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:51pm:
Quote:
A study of haplotypes of the Y chromosome, published in 2000, addressed the paternal origins of Ashkenazi Jews. Hammer et al.[16] found that the Y chromosome of some Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews  contained mutations that are also common among Middle Eastern peoples, but uncommon in the general European population. This suggested that the male ancestors of the Ashkenazi Jews could be traced mostly to the Middle East. The proportion of male genetic admixture  in Ashkenazi Jews amounts to less than 0.5% per generation over an estimated 80 generations, with "relatively minor contribution of European Y chromosomes to the Ashkenazim," and a total admixture estimate "very similar to Motulsky's average estimate of 12.5%." This supported the finding that "Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors."


Quote:
A 2005 study by Nebel et al., based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe. However, 11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow.[18]


Which really doesn't mean much....the 'Y' chromosome is simply the 'male' sex determination gene....

ALL men have XY chromosomes and ALL women have XX chromosomes..

The "Y" Chromosome is a sex determination Gene....and is made up of 60 million base pairs
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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aikmann4
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #413 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 6:11pm
 
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A new look at the DNA of the Ashkenazi Jewish population has thrown light on its still mysterious origins.

Until now, it had been widely assumed by geneticists that the Ashkenazi communities of Northern and Central Europe were founded by men who came from the Middle East, perhaps as traders, and by the women from each local population whom they took as wives and converted to Judaism.

But the new study, published online this week in The American Journal of Human Genetics, suggests that the men and their wives migrated to Europe together.

The researchers, Doron Behar and Karl Skorecki of the Technion and Ramban Medical Center in Haifa, and colleagues elsewhere, report that just four women, who may have lived 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, are the ancestors of 40 percent of Ashkenazis alive today. The Technion team's analysis was based on mitochondrial DNA, a genetic element that is separate from the genes held in the cell's nucleus and that is inherited only through the female line. Because of mutations - the switch of one DNA unit for another - that build up on the mitochondrial DNA, people can be assigned to branches that are defined by which mutations they carry.

In the case of the Ashkenazi population, the researchers found that many branches coalesced to single trees, and so were able to identify the four female ancestors.

Looking at other populations, the Technion team found that some people in Egypt, Arabia and the Levant also carried the set of mutations that defines one of the four women. They argue that all four probably lived originally in the Middle East.

A study by Michael Hammer of the University of Arizona showed five years ago that the men in many Jewish communities around the world bore Y chromosomes that were Middle Eastern in origin. This finding is widely accepted by geneticists, but there is less consensus about the women's origins.

David Goldstein, now of Duke University, reported in 2002 that the mitochondrial DNA of women in Jewish communities around the world did not seem to be Middle Eastern, and indeed each community had its own genetic pattern. But in some cases the mitochondrial DNA was closely related to that of the host community.

Dr. Goldstein and his colleagues suggested that the genesis of each Jewish community, including the Ashkenazis, was that Jewish men had arrived from the Middle East, taken wives from the host population and converted them to Judaism, after which there was no further intermarriage with non-Jews.

The Technion team suggests a different origin for the Ashkenazi community: if the women too are Middle Eastern in origin, they would presumably have accompanied their husbands. At least the Ashkenazi Jewish community might have been formed by families migrating together.

Dr. Hammer said the new study "moves us forward in trying to understand Jewish population history." His own recent research, he said, suggests that the Ashkenazi population expanded through a series of bottlenecks - events that squeeze a population down to small numbers - perhaps as it migrated from the Middle East after the destruction of the Second Temple in A.D. 70 to Italy, reaching the Rhine Valley in the 10th century.

But Dr. Goldstein said the new report did not alter his previous conclusion. The mitochondrial DNA's of a small, isolated population tend to change rapidly as some lineages fall extinct and others become more common, a process known as genetic drift. In his view, the Technion team has confirmed that genetic drift has played a major role in shaping Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA. But the linkage with Middle Eastern populations is not statistically significant, he said.

Because of genetic drift, Ashkenazi mitochondrial DNA's have developed their own pattern, which makes it very hard to tell their source. This differs from the patrilineal case, Dr. Goldstein said, where there is no question of a Middle Eastern origin.



http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/14/science/14gene.html

The Jews are simply the Jews Tongue They're fairly distinct from everybody else.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #414 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 6:21pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:51pm:
Quote:
[quote]A 2005 study by Nebel et al., based on Y chromosome polymorphic markers, showed that Ashkenazi Jews are more closely related to other Jewish and Middle Eastern groups than to their host populations in Europe. However, 11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow.[18]


So you mean that the European Jewish population intermarried???

That's a shock...
And yes it's no surprise that the Middle Eastern Jewish population intermarried with Europeans....
But consider the idea of 100 middle eastern Jews travelling to Europe 1000 yrs ago....exactly how much middle eastern dna would be left ...NOW???? A human Generation is 25 years.....so 40 generations later....1st generation..middle eastern man and a european woman...50/50..NEXT generation..25%, 3rd generation 12.5%....

40 generations later.....what's the % of middle eastern heritage???

After 20 generations, the % of middle eastern heritage is about 0.0000476837%....

Makes you think doesn't it????
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat
 
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aikmann4
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #415 - Aug 26th, 2010 at 6:25pm
 
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However, 11.5% of male Ashkenazim were found to belong to R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow.


Quote:
Dr. Goldstein and his colleagues suggested that the genesis of each Jewish community, including the Ashkenazis, was that Jewish men had arrived from the Middle East, taken wives from the host population and converted them to Judaism, after which there was no further intermarriage with non-Jews.


Everybody knows that the Jews have been remarkably successful at keeping themselves genetically separate (relatively) from the host populations in which they have found themselves. It's a remarkable achievement that they have managed to remain so distinct for so long; they haven't really been melted down into the greater genepools around them for a thousand years.
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muso
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #416 - Aug 27th, 2010 at 12:15pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Aug 26th, 2010 at 5:17pm:
Imperium, how do you 'work out' a difference between Ashkenazi(European/Aryan) Jews and White men???

The Ashkenazi Jews are white European people who converted to the religion of Judaism.....

They are no less 'white' than any of the other people from Germany, Hungary, Poland, Lithuania and the Ukraine....



I don't see this as being a race issue. A few considerations need to be taken into account. The brain is very plastic.  If you take any group of people and educate them, they will be more intelligent (as defined by IQ tests). The brain is like any other part of the body - the more you exercise it, the more adept it becomes - and that is one of the primary factors in intelligence. 

One of the theories going around is that the Ashkenazi, who basically settled around the Rhine valley were forbidden from carrying out  menial labouring jobs and as a result were forced into carrying out roles requiring more education.  Those who couldn't perform these more intellectually demanding roles obviously had to find work elsewhere in Europe.

Children of educated parents generally tend to be intelligent too. For such a small population and relatively small numbers of generations between Medieval times and now, there is no question of actual evolutionary processes.

There is no way we can test this hypothesis though. It's just a hypothesis.

- and of course there was intermarriage.
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aikmann4
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #417 - Aug 27th, 2010 at 12:22pm
 
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Children of educated parents generally tend to be intelligent too. For such a small population and relatively small numbers of generations between Medieval times and now, there is no question of actual evolutionary processes.


I don't think this is necessarily correct. I'll be explaining more later.
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Soren
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #418 - Aug 27th, 2010 at 9:56pm
 
Pat Condell 'excommunicated by the atheist community'



Grin
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Lisa Jones
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Re: Is atheism a religious belief?
Reply #419 - Sep 29th, 2010 at 3:43pm
 
Now THAT was funny Soren lmao Smiley
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