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Is mining sustainable? (Read 5235 times)
freediver
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Is mining sustainable?
May 15th, 2007 at 9:21am
 
Is mining sustainable?
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #1 - May 15th, 2007 at 12:11pm
 
Yes.
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #2 - May 15th, 2007 at 12:29pm
 
Of course it is.
You are just not considering all the options freediver.
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freediver
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #3 - May 15th, 2007 at 12:46pm
 
You are just not considering all the options freediver.

What makes you think that?
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #4 - May 15th, 2007 at 1:39pm
 
No - mining is not sustainable.  Our natural resources are finite.  How long are mines going to be sustainable when China has taken all it can get its hands on?
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #5 - May 15th, 2007 at 3:38pm
 
Once all the minerals, coal and gold is all gone from the holes.
Dig more holes.
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #6 - May 15th, 2007 at 6:04pm
 
"No, no, dig UP stupid"
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zoso
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #7 - May 15th, 2007 at 6:23pm
 
Depends how you want to define sustainable. Most environmentalists make the mistake of assuming conservation means sustainability, yet this is a fatally flawed assumption that sustainability has anything to do with conserving the present situation.

To be fair, I have just finished a couple of modules on sustainability. The way they define sustainability technically is not the usual 'preservation of the environment' line per se, sustainability means: "the preservation of the conditions that are necessary for life to continue, without threatening those conditions at any time in the future through actions in the present". So in that respect, mining could be considered sustainable (despite what I said in another thread Wink ). The question however is how do you define that statement? What exactly are the conditions you want to preserve? Life can continue under some pretty harsh conditions. Also, of exactly what aspect of mining are you asking the question? Mining itself or its impact on the environment or its impact on human society?

What I would say is the mining industry is not a sustainable industry, nor is mining itself a sustainable practice, however, if the question is: will mining threaten the sustainability of the planet, or our society even, the answer is probably no. However, how much we  depend on mining for our society could effect the sustainability of our society. If for example we set ourselves up so that we can only operate at economic outputs that require the burning of fossil fuels for energy (lets say wind and solar just don't work for the sake of the argument) then I would say it is not sustainable for us to base our power source on mining. A more interesting question though is that of steel. I don't think many people really appreciate how much our entire society is based on steel mining and the use of steel in manufacture and construction. There is nothing that can compare to steel for usefulness. Steel is not so bad since it is easily recycled, however the smelting of steel requires coal, coal is certainly not going to be pulled out of the ground forever.

It is a complex issue, and depends entirely on what exactly you are questioning is sustainable? (systems approach - first define the system!) I mean Humans could wipe themselves out, but life will likely continue, that is sustainability if you are simply talking about the continuation of life. Sustainability of human society? Well that is again dependant on many things, it is most likely though that mining will not end our society when mining itself ends.

Mining however?? In no way could you consider mining sustainable, that is if you draw a little box around mining and ask the question is mining sustainable. That is like saying: you have one tomato vine, it is loaded with tomatoes, can you pick tomatoes from that vine forever (assuming it never produces new ones)?
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freediver
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #8 - May 15th, 2007 at 6:31pm
 
Depends how you want to define sustainable.

Well done.

"the preservation of the conditions that are necessary for life to continue, without threatening those conditions at any time in the future through actions in the present"

I don't think maintenance of life suffices for a meaningful definition. Life will continue even if we cause rampant global warming and mass extinctions. Life would continue even if modern global society collapsed. I think maintenance of our standard of living is a better way to define it. That is, not leaving a legacy that prevents our descendants from achieving the same stadard of living.

however, if the question is: will mining threaten the sustainability of the planet, or our society even, the answer is probably no

I agree with this, depending of course on the techniques used. Cyanide leach pits leave a pretty nasty legacy.

Steel is not so bad since it is easily recycled, however the smelting of steel requires coal, coal is certainly not going to be pulled out of the ground forever.

that's just the cheapest way to do it. There are plenty of other more expensive ways.
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zoso
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #9 - May 15th, 2007 at 6:46pm
 
freediver wrote on May 15th, 2007 at 6:31pm:
I don't think maintenance of life suffices for a meaningful definition. Life will continue even if we cause rampant global warming and mass extinctions. Life would continue even if modern global society collapsed. I think maintenance of our standard of living is a better way to define it. That is, not leaving a legacy that prevents our descendants from achieving the same stadard of living.

That is a dry technical definition of sustainability, one that you will find in textbooks (like my own). There are conceivable situations that would end life altogether on this planet I think. It is a bland definition that requires application to some predefined system, note that there is no mention in that definition about the size and location of the system in question (ie it can be just as accurately applied to a pond as it can the entire biosphere), as such it is a useful and accurate definition of 'sustainability'.

This is why it is important to define the system, and in the context of stating this from within a human society, I think the human society is probably the best definition of the system in question.

Mining itself however, remains an extremely unsustainable practice. The question was after all "is mining sustainable". Perhaps you should say "is mining conducive to a sustainable society"
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #10 - May 15th, 2007 at 6:57pm
 
zoso wrote on May 15th, 2007 at 6:04pm:
"No, no, dig UP stupid"


Haha.  Grin
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Report calls for iron ore mining ban
Reply #11 - May 16th, 2007 at 10:22am
 
http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking-news/report-calls-for-iron-ore-mining-ban/2007/05/15/1178995143194.html

Miners won't be able to touch iron ore deposits potentially worth billions of dollars in Western Australia's wheatbelt if the state government accepts recommendations from its environmental watchdog.

The environmental watchdog says the area contains rare flora and exceptionally high landscape diversity.

It wants an existing reserve there doubled in size and to include an A-Class high-conservation reserve where no mining would be allowed.

"In the absence of secure protection, exploration and mining impacts represent a significant threatening process to species that only exist on one or two small Banded Ironstone Formation ranges," EPA deputy chairman Andrea Hinwood said.

Association of Mining and Exploration Companies (AMEC) chief executive Justin Walawski said the EPA's ruling continued the "gross imbalance" towards conservation in WA, with 12 per cent of the state's land mass set aside for conservation but only 0.6 per cent for mining.
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latest science on how much is left
Reply #12 - May 26th, 2007 at 8:12pm
 
The 26th of May 2007 (this week's) issue of New Scientist has a cover article / special investigation titled "
World Stripped Bare: the state of the world's mineral resources
". If you get this message in time, buy the magazine...

They claim that if we keep on consuming at today's rate, we will exhaust our supplies of ....... in x number years. I may as well just type out the whole thing here, hope I'm not breaching any copyright.

name - years left if the world consumes at today's rate - what it's used for
Antimony        30 years - drugs
Aluminium   1027 years - transport, electrical, consumer durables
Copper            61 years - wire, coins, plumbing
Gold                45 years - jewellery, dental
Indium             13 years - LCD screens
Lead                42 years - lead pipes, batteries
Nickel              90 years - batteries, turbine blades
Phosphorous  345 years - fertiliser, animal feed
Platinum         360 years - jewellery, catalysts, fuel cells for cars
Silver               29 years - jewelry, catalytic converters
Tantalum        116 years - cellphones, camera lenses
Tin                   40 years - cans, solder
Uranium           59 years - weapons, power stations
Zinc                 46 years - galvanising
Figures not available for Rhodium, Hafnium, Germanium and Gallium.


"The calculations are crude - they don't take into account any increase in demand due to new technologies, and also assume that current production equals consumption. "  

That's why this data is scary. Because we expect consumption to *increase* as more people access more technology.

Example 1:
Reserves of Tantalum (used for cellphones) are estimated to last 116 years at current rates of consumption but could run out in as little as 20 years if everyone on earth consumed at just half the American average.

Example 2:
Reserves of Indium (used for LCDs) are estimated to last 13 years at current rates of consumption but could run out in as little as 4 years if everyone on earth consumed at just half the 2006 US per capita rate.

The point is that these resources are finite. "Unlike with oil or diamonds, there is no synthetic alternative .... once we have used it all there is no way on earth of getting any more".

Other data in the article includes "Proportion of consumables met by recycled materials (%)", and World Totals (where the minerals are - Australia has the most Uranium and Aluminium, and more than half the world's Hafnium and Tantalum).

All in all this is an excellent article in a fascinating magazine, so go buy it!
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freediver
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #13 - May 26th, 2007 at 8:41pm
 
I'm pretty sure that isn't a copyright issue.

Also, if I can make a correction, you said:

They claim that if we keep on consuming at today's rate, we will exhaust our supplies of

What you should have said is:

They claim that if we keep on consuming at today's rate, we will exhaust the known supplies of

This is common knowledge in the mining industry. It is a reflection of the value of exploration. Once you get more than 30 years supply, then looking for more is no longer financially viable. When the known supplies start to run out, we will just look for more. If there really is a supply problem, the price will go up and the 'known' but unviable sources will become viable.

While I admire New Scientist's efforts to make science interesting to a broader audience, they are journalists, not scientists, and certainly not engineers. They make the same technical mistakes that all journalists make.

At least they were honest enough to admit that their calculations were 'crude.'
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Re: Is mining sustainable?
Reply #14 - May 27th, 2007 at 11:12am
 
mantra wrote on May 15th, 2007 at 1:39pm:
No - mining is not sustainable.  Our natural resources are finite.  How long are mines going to be sustainable when China has taken all it can get its hands on?


Exactly-- how can mining be sustainable?

I was watching the program 'Crude' on ABC..and it said we have exhausted half of the worlds oil supply..

This crude took millions of years to evolve as does coal..!

Maybe when the shortages start to impact individual economies, they will 'look' to 'resource rich' countries to top up theyre supplies rather than create new ways to top up theyre failing resources, as America does now?


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