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Sustainability Party of Australia (Read 57151 times)
enviro
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #15 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 4:25pm
 
Exactly right, businesses would lower wages to stay competitive and of course this would be the first step to the decline of that business. It also would make a mockery to the individual with the income tax reduction because he would be no better off and probably have even less job security.

Company tax is a tax on net profit which forces companies to spend and pay extravagant director fees to beat the tax man. If company tax was reduced to the same percentage as income tax then companies would more likely create saving plans with their net gain which is good for the whole economy of this country. This in effect would help with decreasing of interest rates due to less spending and debt because the overal savings of the country would increase dramatically giving us an even more secure future.

freediver stated Quote:
...if you tax petrol, it makes no difference whether you charge the tax to the fuel company or the end consumer, the end consumer pays the higher price.


It actually does make a difference. By taxing the fuel company you force them to cut costs, cut wages, increase production or increasing prices. Generally they will do all 4, this way dispursing the extra burden right throughout their business model with minimum noticeable effect to the end consumer. By taxing the end consumer direct doesn't allow dispursement of the tax. It is 100% payed by the end consumer. The end consumers only option is to buy less.


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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #16 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 4:36pm
 
Exactly right, businesses would lower wages to stay competitive and of course this would be the first step to the decline of that business.

Not necessarily. All businesses would face some rpessure to reduce wages. Some would become less competitive in the employee market - the ones you want to decline.

It also would make a mockery to the individual with the income tax reduction because he would be no better off and probably have even less job security.

The goal is not to make people better off. People won't have more to spend because income taxes are reduced. It will be offset by an increase in price in some goods and some decrease in wages. As some industries shrink and some grow there would obviously be less job security in the shrinking industries and more in the growing ones.

If company tax was reduced to the same percentage as income tax

It's 30% isn't it? That is, less than the marginal rate for most investors.

By taxing the fuel company you force them to cut costs, cut wages, increase production or increasing prices.

No, production decreases. Competition forces them to cut costs. There will be competiton before and after the new tax.

Generally they will do all 4, this way dispursing the extra burden right throughout their business model with minimum noticeable effect to the end consumer. By taxing the end consumer direct doesn't allow dispursement of the tax. It is 100% payed by the end consumer. The end consumers only option is to buy less.

Wrong. Ask an economist about this if you don't believe me. Please.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #17 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 4:47pm
 
I have added a policy on the dodgy first home owner scheme.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #18 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 6:36pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 23rd, 2007 at 4:19pm:
The first home buyers grant is another handout that should go:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Business/Not-all-first-homeowners-need-grant/2007/04/23/1177180548064.html

Releasing its plan to make the housing market fairer, National Shelter said the grant was working against low income households by artificially pushing up house prices.

"The first homeowners' grant provides valued assistance to many younger households struggling to get a foothold in the housing market," the paper says.

"However, because it is not means tested, it also subsidises many people who don't need it, and many believe it has an overall inflationary effect on the housing market, which ultimately makes it self-defeating."


An overall inflation rate effect? If it wasn't for the first home owners grant the building industry would not have taken off in the first place. A bit like the baby bonus. As soon as people were given an opportunity they embraced it creating activity within the sectors. Activity creates activity.

Freediver you seem to be attacking all the good things that the Howard government has implemented which has worked beyond a doubt under their good economic management. People just don't know when they have it good. While you spend the next decade waiting for a bust in the boom cycle I'll be taking advantage of today.

I feel your policies will be better supported when people are looking for economic change. The time is not right. 15 years ago people would listen to you en mass  but not today. Howard has already set us on a road of protecting our future as well as giving benefit for today. His focus has been on Increasing our birthrate, reducing immigration (allowing time for assimilation), giving everyone the opportunity of home ownership (giving our children security), advocating nuclear power (creating a new industry (more jobs available for our children as they come of age from the baby boom), advocating principles in education (all to have same curriculum, teachings of Shakespear etc.), Murray Darling Control, AWA (which has given Australia the lowest unemployment rate this country has ever seen). Pretty much he has led this country by listening to the peoples concerns and has adopted policies to benefit all Australians.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #19 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 6:44pm
 
If it wasn't for the first home owners grant the building industry would not have taken off in the first place.

Any subsidised industry will take off. That doesn't make it a good idea.

Freediver you seem to be attacking all the good things that the Howard government has implemented which has worked beyond a doubt under their good economic management.

I disagree that they are good. I agree that they have changed things and 'worked' in a narrow sense, but overall they are bad ideas. I am not attacking all of his ideas, only the bad ones.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #20 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 6:48pm
 
In your mind they are bad, and yet you still cannot show evidence to back that up, in my mind they are good and evidence is already there.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #21 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 6:54pm
 
Do you have any evidence that the 'good' outweighs the cost to society of raising the funds for those handouts through taxation?

I will put up an article about it all soon. In the meantime, consult a microeconomics textbook, or an economist.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #22 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 7:04pm
 
Quote:
Howard has already set us on a road of protecting our future as well as giving benefit for today. His focus has been on Increasing our birthrate, reducing immigration (allowing time for assimilation), giving everyone the opportunity of home ownership (giving our children security), advocating nuclear power (creating a new industry (more jobs available for our children as they come of age from the baby boom), advocating principles in education (all to have same curriculum, teachings of Shakespear etc.), Murray Darling Control, AWA (which has given Australia the lowest unemployment rate this country has ever seen). Pretty much he has led this country by listening to the peoples concerns and has adopted policies to benefit all Australians.


This is all based on evidence. Open your eyes up and look at things logically and you too might see what I see. read a 12 books on microeconomics concerning these issues and I'll get 12 opinions, not one will be the same and they'll all have an sometype of workable solution.

Costello knows what he is talking about and I believe he is a lot more switched on than Keating.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #23 - Apr 23rd, 2007 at 7:11pm
 
This is all based on evidence.

I didn't deny it was based on evidence. I asked you supply evidence that the benfits of handouts justified the cost to taxpayers, not that they had an impact

read a 12 books on microeconomics concerning these issues and I'll get 12 opinions, not one will be the same and they'll all have an sometype of workable solution

No you won't. Try it. You'd be surprised how consistent the theory is.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #24 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 8:57am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 23rd, 2007 at 7:11pm:
This is all based on evidence.

I didn't deny it was based on evidence. I asked you supply evidence that the benfits of handouts justified the cost to taxpayers, not that they had an impact


Not all handouts can justify the cost to taxpayers but the aforementioned handouts do justify the cost, not in immediate financial cost but something more important e.g.

Social Benefits

Baby boomer bonus has many social benefits for example;

Keeping our birthrate above our death rate, considering we are still an aging society.
Immigration reduction allowing assimilation of all the current ethnics reducing tension and possibility of terrorism from rascism.

Financial Benefits

Financial benefits can be gained in the future. If we have a decline in births, which was happening before the baby boomer bonus our current infrastructure would still have to be paid for, our housing development would be reduced (long term), cost of terrorist attacks due to increasing immigration to a non assimilation point etc.

I could list benefits for all Howards policy with the big picture in mind. I understand that you would prefer to means test all policies but means testing is an attack on equal rights. If you work hard all your life for your country and are successful why should you be consistently penalised by your country.

I come from a low socio economic background and it is hard work digging yourself out of the gutter to achieve. Those people that do should not be penalised by your policies.

As for reading a book, I have built two successful businesses up from nothing to lead in their industries over the last 8 years and the industries I talk about have plenty of competition. I didn't read a book to do this I listened to people on what their needs were, I listened to the market, I listened and took action.

If you think you can learn everything out of a book I've got news for you. If you havn't got natural talent in that particular area you are wasting your time. Reading a few books does not make you an expert it just makes you the carrier of someone elses ideas and opinions.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #25 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 10:13am
 
But we don't actually want a constantly increasing population. It isn't sustainable.

As for reading a book, I have built two successful businesses up from nothing to lead in their industries over the last 8 years and the industries I talk about have plenty of competition. I didn't read a book to do this I listened to people on what their needs were, I listened to the market, I listened and took action.

Sure, that qualifies you to be a strong participant in the economy, but it does not qualify you in any way to judge the broader implications of tax policy.

If you think you can learn everything out of a book I've got news for you. If you havn't got natural talent in that particular area you are wasting your time. Reading a few books does not make you an expert it just makes you the carrier of someone elses ideas and opinions.

There is a large field of knowledge out there called economics. It is not about how to run a business. If you think you can improve on it without even knowing what it is, based on some 'natural talent' then you are very wrong. I would much prefer to put my faith in someone who incorporates other people's ideas and knowledge into their policy than someone who thinks their natural talent is somehow better. Some of the worst suffering in human history has come about through people placing their own ideas, born from ignorance, above the accumulated wisdom of countless others through history. Knowledge such as this is not a subsititute for practical experience, it just enables you to understand it better and put it in perspective.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #26 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 10:31am
 
So what your saying is vote for Freedivers policies but read a book first. Do you have any argument at all that supports your policies? I have given you plenty of factual evidence, which you have not nullified and you still give no evidence to why your policies are of benefit.

You cannot just tell your constituents to go and read a book. How do you ever expect to get support for your policies if you cannot highlight the benefits. Your tactics seem to be to ridicule anyone with an opposing voice.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #27 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 10:38am
 
So what your saying is vote for Freedivers policies but read a book first. Do you have any argument at all that supports your policies?

I have put together a string of articles on the green tax shift idea. I am working on something on taxation in general, and an intro to microeconomic theory. I hadn't thought this was necessary as I thought the public generally understood the cost to the economy of the government taking with one hand and giving with the other.

You cannot just tell your constituents to go and read a book. How do you ever expect to get support for your policies if you cannot highlight the benefits. Your tactics seem to be to ridicule anyone with an opposing voice.

That is a genuine problem - how to get the public to see the benefits of policies which they do not understand. I suspect we may have to resort to argumentum ad populum. Either that, or just wield our power as a minority group very effectively. Given that our views do not represent any kind of extreme that should be doable.
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #28 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 11:00am
 
Quote:
I hadn't thought this was necessary as I thought the public generally understood the cost to the economy of the government taking with one hand and giving with the other.


Isn't this called fair distribution of funds?

Quote:
That is a genuine problem - how to get the public to see the benefits of policies which they do not understand. I suspect we may have to resort to argumentum ad populum. Either that, or just wield our power as a minority group very effectively. Given that our views do not represent any kind of extreme that should be doable.


Your views are extreme;

The abolishment of the Baby Bonus
The abolishment of First Home Owners grant
Reduction of income tax or increasing tax free threshold (I'm still not sure what you are advocating in this area).

Have you atleast looked at the negative impact of these extremes?
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Re: Sustainability Party of Australia
Reply #29 - Apr 24th, 2007 at 11:02am
 
With tax reduction, I am advocating a decrease in the total tax burden. That means all taxes. It will probably mean a slight decrease in government revenue.
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