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Is Islam inherently violent? (Read 83254 times)
lapaz62
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #285 - May 26th, 2008 at 6:47pm
 
The Koran is not the problem, its the interpretation of it. People have used the Bible and the Koran to push their own agenda, its about power and control, not religion that has put the world in this terrible place that its in at the moment.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #286 - May 26th, 2008 at 10:48pm
 
And people like Sprint are playing right into that by trying to use religion to mask the more obvious political problems. Once you do that, you turn a tractable problem into a quagmire.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #287 - May 26th, 2008 at 11:17pm
 

lapaz - interperet this for me.


Ishaq: 676 "‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?' Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?' Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet's wishes. That very night he crept into the writer's home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.' Umayr said. ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?' ‘No,' the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.'"

Or this instruction
"Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #288 - May 27th, 2008 at 12:28pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 26th, 2008 at 4:39pm:
Jesus fulfilled the Old laws, so they no longer isolate us from God.

"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person.
If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Matthew 5:38,39

Let's not also forget what Jesus pbuh said which can be seen in Luke 22:35-38

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
     "Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
     "That is enough," he replied.


So tell me, why did Jesus pbuh tell his own disciples to sell their own goods and purchase swords? It certainly wasn't to use for ornamental value. It was so the disciples could defend themselves against the Soldiers, should they have attacked them.

Self defense is a inalienable human right.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 26th, 2008 at 4:39pm:
yes, mohammad strongly coerced others to his brand new made up belief.
remember the battle of trenches ?
Feel free to post up the gory story here.

The battle of the trench was a defensive war, where the Muslims defended themselves in their city (Medina) against a siege initiated by the Pagan army from Mecca. The Pagans conspired against the Muslims with the Banu Qurayza, a Jewish tribe who had previously signed a pact with Muhammad to be protected under the Islamic state in Medina and be given their full rights. That means they were living under the laws of the state as citizens of the Islamic State. Their acts were considered a breach of the pact which the Muslims had never broken nor humiliated them to give them cause and constituted an act of treason. In any nation, including Australia the punishment for treason is death. That was also the penalty for the adult male members of their tribe for the action.

One must remember that the whole of Banu Qurayza participated in this action, Arab tribes are very democratic and a vote was taken, thus the punishment of those who stayed with the Banu Qurayza after the decision was made to commit treason applied to them equally. There were some of the Banu Qurayza who left the tribe after the decision was taken and they were not harmed at all. I don't see how that can be considered barbaric when even Australian law will punish those who commit treason with death also if they participate in it.


Sprintcyclist wrote on May 26th, 2008 at 4:39pm:
what is the situation in saudi arabia concerning christians ??
How come 100% there are muslims?

There are Christians in Saudi arabia, but not of Saudi origin.. The reason for that was because after the Christians in that area had accepted a truce between them and the Muslims they (several times) broke it by supporting the Romans against the Muslims and fighting the Muslims.

After they broke that truce so many times they were relocated to Lebanon, Syria, Iraq etc and given land there to live on.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #289 - May 27th, 2008 at 12:38pm
 
Perhaps we should start a thread on spirituality about koran and bible quotes so we can get all the explanation in one place. I suspect it will take a while to satisfy everyone's curiosity on this matter.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #290 - May 27th, 2008 at 1:24pm
 
malik - Jesus has called his followers transgressors for their actions.
he said when you were unarmed, you wanted for nothing.
No he did not tell them to sell their goods for weapons,that is what they were doing against his wishes, teachings and example.

I demand an apology for your false interperetation.


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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #291 - May 27th, 2008 at 9:31pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 27th, 2008 at 1:24pm:
malik - Jesus has called his followers transgressors for their actions.
he said when you were unarmed, you wanted for nothing.
No he did not tell them to sell their goods for weapons,that is what they were doing against his wishes, teachings and example.

I demand an apology for your false interpretation.


No, I won't be apologising whatsoever, that is not what Jesus pbuh was speaking about at all. According to the bible he was aware that people were coming to take him away and he wasn't concerned about his own safety. But he had concern for the safety of his followers and didn't want them to fight and die protecting him but did want them to protect themselves from harm. Thus he ORDERED them to buy swords, even if they had to sell their own cloaks. That is how important he considered their right to protect themselves. Let's take a look at it a little further.

Matthew 22:31-53

"Simon, Simon, Satan has asked to sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers."

But he replied, "Lord, I am ready to go with you to prison and to death."

Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
     "Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
     "That is enough," he replied.

Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation." He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]
When he rose from prayer and went back to the disciples, he found them asleep, exhausted from sorrow. "Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."

While he was still speaking a crowd came up, and the man who was called Judas, one of the Twelve, was leading them. He approached Jesus to kiss him, but Jesus asked him, "Judas, are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"
When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns."


As mentioned, Jesus pbuh was not concerned for his own safety and went with the temple guard, and that is why he stopped his disciples from further harming the temple guard and healed the officer's ear, their swords were meant for to be used so that they would be able to defend their own lives had the temple guards become overzealous and put their lives in physical danger they would have had every right to defend themselves. How else would they have been able to spread Jesus' message? They couldn't have done so if they were dead.

It's funny.. you misrepresent Islam so many different ways, you put insulting threads up about it and insulting pictures too and all of that without any remorse whatsoever, yet as soon as someone has a different opinion to your interpretation of the bible you demand an apology.

The fact is that I didn't even portray Jesus pbuh in a bad way like you tried (and failed miserably) to do with Muhammad pbuh or Islam but you still want to cry like a baby about it.

It is you who should be apologising for your behaviour and misrepresentations of Islam. No one here has misrepresented Jesus pbuh nor showing him any disrespect. You should be ashamed of yourself for only referring to him simply as Jesus without any form of reverence for him. I find that very disrespectful.

So grow up mate and stop being a hypocrite..

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #292 - May 27th, 2008 at 9:52pm
 
malik - you are right.
I was wrong, sorry.

Jesus is instructing them to take a sword, to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy. He lived his life to fulfill the Old Test.
I had misinterpereted that paragraph.
My apology.


Feel free to point out where I make mistakes in my quotes from the koran or hadiths..

I don't have to refer to Jesus as anything else but Jesus.
Mates are like that.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #293 - May 27th, 2008 at 9:59pm
 
Malik - we have differing versions of the war of trenches.
Are we agreed that mohammad directed several hundred jews to be beheaded that day?


In saudi it is illegal to have a Bible. Carries a 2 year jail sentence.
I'ld think being a xian there would be impossible, 2 years in one of their jails would be very educational !!!!!!!!
What other limits are there on other faiths in saudi ?

muslims are not directed to relocate christians in the koran - far from it.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #294 - May 27th, 2008 at 11:36pm
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 27th, 2008 at 9:52pm:
malik - you are right.
I was wrong, sorry.

Jesus is instructing them to take a sword, to fulfill the Old Testament prophecy. He lived his life to fulfill the Old Test.
I had misinterpereted that paragraph.
My apology.


Feel free to point out where I make mistakes in my quotes from the koran or hadiths..

I don't have to refer to Jesus as anything else but Jesus.
Mates are like that.

It's ok.

Although I disagree with your interpretation I certainly accept that you are entitled to your own opinion of what it says.

Quote:
Malik - we have differing versions of the war of trenches.
Are we agreed that mohammad directed several hundred jews to be beheaded that day?


In saudi it is illegal to have a Bible. Carries a 2 year jail sentence.
I'ld think being a xian there would be impossible, 2 years in one of their jails would be very educational !!!!!!!!
What other limits are there on other faiths in saudi ?

muslims are not directed to relocate christians in the koran - far from it.

I referred to historical accounts when I mentioned the Battle of the Trench.

We are however agreed that several hundred Jewish men were indeed executed, as I mentioned it was the punishment for their breaking of the pact they held with the Muslims and their treason in conspiring with the Pagans against the Islamic State that they were citizens of. They would have had the same punishment regardless what religion they were. The death penalty is the penalty applicable for treason for most nations, even in Australia today that is the punishment.

In regards to the Christians and Jews that were moved from the Gulf, this is because they had broken a treaty that they had with the Muslims and rebelled. Thus to protect the integrity of the Gulf because it's a strategic area. They were relocated to Iraq, Lebanon and Syria and given land there. If they had not broken the truce they would not have been relocated, the Muslims protect the rights of the Christians and Jews after they have agreed to a pact. The agreement sets out conditions and if they break the conditions they are not given protection of their rights. They were lucky to even be moved to Iraq, Syria and Lebanon.

I will also mention that I do not consider the Saudi Arabian government as an Islamic government, they are far from it and are despotic hypocrites. I don't condone their actions in preventing people from owning the bible. They are Wahabis and I really don't like Wahabis at all.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #295 - May 27th, 2008 at 11:57pm
 
We agree that mohammad directed several hundred jews to be beheaded after the war.
We seriously disagree on who broke what pact.  Also on why a past was entered in the first place.

Do we also agree that mohammad offered to spare the jews the lives if they became muslims?

I assume you mean my comments on the oppressive laws in saudi are correct ?

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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #296 - May 28th, 2008 at 12:04am
 
Malik Shakur wrote on May 27th, 2008 at 11:36pm:
The death penalty is the penalty applicable for treason for most nations, even in Australia today that is the punishment.


No it is not the penalty here.
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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #297 - May 28th, 2008 at 7:35am
 
DILLIGAF wrote on May 28th, 2008 at 12:04am:
Malik Shakur wrote on May 27th, 2008 at 11:36pm:
The death penalty is the penalty applicable for treason for most nations, even in Australia today that is the punishment.


No it is not the penalty here.

Apologies.. That punishment was only changed quite recently, as late as 1985.


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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #298 - May 28th, 2008 at 8:37am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on May 27th, 2008 at 11:57pm:
We agree that mohammad directed several hundred jews to be beheaded after the war.
We seriously disagree on who broke what pact.  Also on why a past was entered in the first place.

Do we also agree that mohammad offered to spare the jews the lives if they became muslims?

I assume you mean my comments on the oppressive laws in saudi are correct ?



Not that Christianity has not done more than enough to attempt to destroy the Jewish people.

Every age has an ugly tale of Jewish persecution by Christians. Even the great reformer and anti-papist Martin Luther hated them with almost psychotic zeal (read 'The Jews and their Lies').

Finally Hitler did what centuries of Jew hating Christians had always dreamed of doing... mass extermination... and he wasn't shy in reminding religious leaders of the fact, either.


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Re: Is Islam inherently violent?
Reply #299 - May 28th, 2008 at 8:58am
 
helian - question was, were they following jesus's lessons/actions when doing that ?




malik - could you interperet ths for me please ?

"Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (tribute) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." (Quran, Sura 9:29)

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