Reading yet another article in The Age, talking about the mooted take-up of EVs (presumably, to "count" as part of a reduced transport sector emissions target).

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/energy-chiefs-accused-of-unjustified-electric-vehicle-sales-forecast-20201228-p56qif.html#comments

Makes me wonder just "when" is the right time to get rid of the petrol vehicles (while some money can still be had for them), and to get into an electric vehicle (again, presumably when they aren't as damnably expensive to "get into", and there is sufficient charging infrastructure around for longer distance driving etc.)

One other question I had was "What happens to the batteries in EVs when they reach end of service life"?

The following is a (necessarily long-winded) discussion of through and post-life use, decommissioning and recycling of Li-ion batteries from EVs.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5

Naturally, questions also arise in respect of the "total" environmental cost of the production, use and ultimate disposal of the batteries.

Are we "trading" one form of environmental damage (fossil fuel emissions), for others?

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 4:04pm:

Makes me wonder just "when" is the right time to get rid of the petrol vehicles (while some money can still be had for them), and to get into an electric vehicle (again, presumably when they aren't as damnably expensive to "get into", and there is sufficient charging infrastructure around for longer distance driving etc.)

As well as "sufficient charging infrastructure" the grid will need far more power.

lee wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 4:04pm: Makes me wonder just "when" is the right time to get rid of the petrol vehicles (while some money can still be had for them), and to get into an electric vehicle (again, presumably when they aren't as damnably expensive to "get into", and there is sufficient charging infrastructure around for longer distance driving etc.) As well as "sufficient charging infrastructure" the grid will need far more power.

Perhaps some of the excess power being produced by roof top solar during the day - the same power the generators are now complaining about and considering charging home solar producers to feed into the grid - could be used to cover some of this extra requirement?

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 5:01pm:

Perhaps some of the excess power being produced by roof top solar during the day - the same power the generators are now complaining about and considering charging home solar producers to feed into the grid - could be used to cover some of this extra requirement?

Only if you have batteries. At work during the day charge at home at night. Providing the batteries are big enough to give a full charge.

This map is interesting. There are 23 charging stations between Adelaide and Perth. They should get you there, especially as someone drove from Perth to Broome and back, in a Tesla, and there were no charging stations then.

https://i.postimg.cc/BQwcN4t0/Charging-Stations.png

lee wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 5:38pm:

At work during the day charge at home at night.

Several places I visit have tesla charge stations in their carpark for the staff and mgmt. That will only increase as electric becomes more and more common

John Smith wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 5:54pm:

Several places I visit have tesla charge stations in their carpark for the staff and mgmt. That will only increase as electric becomes more and more common

And that puts extra strain on the grid. Unless of course people use less electricity in their daily lives. But the uptake on things electrical shows no sign of stopping. ;)

lee wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 6:40pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 5:54pm: Several places I visit have tesla charge stations in their carpark for the staff and mgmt. That will only increase as electric becomes more and more common And that puts extra strain on the grid. Unless of course people use less electricity in their daily lives. But the uptake on things electrical shows no sign of stopping. ;)

there's a surplus of energy on the grid during the day ...

John Smith wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 6:53pm:

there's a surplus of energy on the grid during the day ...

That must be why AEMO warns of outages. ;)

And with less coal fired power and more solar and wind turbine it can't get better.

lee wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 7:02pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 6:53pm: there's a surplus of energy on the grid during the day ... That must be why AEMO warns of outages. ;) And with less coal fired power and more solar and wind turbine it can't get better.

no, it's why the govt.is giving energy companies the power to remotely switch off your solar panels

https://www.afr.com/companies/energy/operators-get-power-to-switch-off-solar-panels-20200619-p5547r

John Smith wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 7:10pm:

no, it's why the govt.is giving energy companies the power to remotely switch off your solar panels

Did you read the story?

"The 275,000 solar households in South Australia face periods where power authorities will switch off their rooftop panels remotely under measures designed to improve electricity grid stability."

That is the trouble with renewables. Te power it goes up, it goes down. And the grid gets destabilised.

Meanwhile -

AEMO warns hot summer weather could see blackouts in Victoria

https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/aemo-warns-hot-summer-weather-could-see-blackouts-in-victoria/11764102

AEMO warns of increased outages from ageing coal generators

https://reneweconomy.com.au/aemo-warns-of-increased-outages-from-ageing-coal-generators-20608/

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 4:04pm:

Reading yet another article in The Age, talking about the mooted take-up of EVs (presumably, to "count" as part of a reduced transport sector emissions target). Makes me wonder just "when" is the right time to get rid of the petrol vehicles (while some money can still be had for them), and to get into an electric vehicle (again, presumably when they aren't as damnably expensive to "get into", and there is sufficient charging infrastructure around for longer distance driving etc.) One other question I had was "What happens to the batteries in EVs when they reach end of service life"? The following is a (necessarily long-winded) discussion of through and post-life use, decommissioning and recycling of Li-ion batteries from EVs. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1682-5 Naturally, questions also arise in respect of the "total" environmental cost of the production, use and ultimate disposal of the batteries. Are we "trading" one form of environmental damage (fossil fuel emissions), for others?

' ...............  Makes me wonder just "when" is the right time to get rid of the petrol vehicles (while some money can still be had for them), and to get into an electric vehicle ......... '

Good question.

Maybe when your driving can be catered to by an electric car?

Perhaps some 2 car households could be 1 petrol and one electric ?

In our future I am looking at one car and using bikes for may day to day trips, ie, when retired.

As the economic difference may not be really huge, not a big call so far.
Electric cars do cost money to run.

lee wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 7:25pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 7:10pm: no, it's why the govt.is giving energy companies the power to remotely switch off your solar panels Did you read the story? "The 275,000 solar households in South Australia face periods where power authorities will switch off their rooftop panels remotely under measures designed to improve electricity grid stability." That is the trouble with renewables. Te power it goes up, it goes down. And the grid gets destabilised. Meanwhile - AEMO warns hot summer weather could see blackouts in Victoria https://www.abc.net.au/radio/programs/am/aemo-warns-hot-summer-weather-could-see-blackouts-in-victoria/11764102 AEMO warns of increased outages from ageing coal generators https://reneweconomy.com.au/aemo-warns-of-increased-outages-from-ageing-coal-generators-20608/

you could have saved yourself the embarrassment and shut up .

John Smith wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 8:48pm:

you could have saved yourself the embarrassment and shut up .

Embarrassment? When you hadn't even read the article you linked? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Renewables are intermittent, they not only vary seasonally but can vary by the minute or part thereof.

Weather Dependent Renewables is what they should be called. ;)

I am convinced. Having read all the condemnations of renewable energy and electric vehicles by the pundits on Ozpolitic, I realise neither will ever get over their immense teething problems. This proves that coal and petrol are better options. Anyway, it was all just a conspiracy by the Left in support of the Great Reset of the world economy.

All of which has me wondering again why so many idiots are attracted to this site.
Oh well, that appears to be the main function of the web for so many, a hall of mirrors to reflect your favourite delusions.
Most of you are so thick you won’t even figure out what the above refers to.

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 5^th, 2021 at 8:09am:

All of which has me wondering again why so many idiots are attracted to this site. Oh well, that appears to be the main function of the web for so many, a hall of mirrors to reflect your favourite delusions. Most of you are so thick you won’t even figure out what the above refers to.

Arguably, the hazard in asking what was intended as a legitimate, non-partisan question...

issuevoter wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 10:54pm:

Having read all the condemnations of renewable energy and electric vehicles by the pundits on Ozpolitic, I realise neither will ever get over their immense teething problems.

The problems are indeed "immense". But they are not "teething" problems.

Renewables, apart from hydro which has siting problems, don't have the necessary energy density. The backup, batteries, are a mature technology. There is room for incremental improvement, but no great leap forward. That means fossil fuelled source power must continue to run as backup; so you are paying twice for the same electricity demand.

To the simple minded on both sides of this debate there are only two alternatives, oil & coal against wind and solar. A little awareness of other possibilities needs to be taken into the equation.

https://scitechdaily.com/korean-artificial-sun-kstar-fusion-reactor-sets-new-world-record/

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 7:52am:

To the simple minded on both sides of this debate there are only two alternatives, oil & coal against wind and solar. A little awareness of other possibilities needs to be taken into the equation. https://scitechdaily.com/korean-artificial-sun-kstar-fusion-reactor-sets-new-world-record/

Yes I have seen that. Of course getting it to run more than 20 seconds is the next challenge. Fusion is always about 40 years away. Unfortunately. I am a believer in nuclear.

But the naysayers say "what about Chernobyl". An old design, and dodgy maintenance.

"What about Fukushima"? - built on unstable ground, and a 15 metre tsunami knocked out the power supply (battery backup would have kept system power online),  the cooling system didn't cover the reactors.

"What about Three Mile Island"? Another old design, mechanical and human error.

So what has changed? New designs, new Programmable Logic Controllers to take the human error out of it.

lee wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 12:14pm:

Unfortunately. I am a believer in nuclear..

Why unfortunate? If nuclear reactors can be made safe from natural disasters etc,  if spent fuel can be safely stored and if radioactive material can be kept out of the wrong hands I’d be a believer too. Thus far I have doubts all that's guaranteed.

lee wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 12:14pm:

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2021 at 7:52am: To the simple minded on both sides of this debate there are only two alternatives, oil & coal against wind and solar. A little awareness of other possibilities needs to be taken into the equation. https://scitechdaily.com/korean-artificial-sun-kstar-fusion-reactor-sets-new-world-record/ Yes I have seen that. Of course getting it to run more than 20 seconds is the next challenge. Fusion is always about 40 years away. Unfortunately. I am a believer in nuclear. But the naysayers say "what about Chernobyl". An old design, and dodgy maintenance. "What about Fukushima"? - built on unstable ground, and a 15 metre tsunami knocked out the power supply (battery backup would have kept system power online),  the cooling system didn't cover the reactors. "What about Three Mile Island"? Another old design, mechanical and human error. So what has changed? New designs, new Programmable Logic Controllers to take the human error out of it.

Chernobyl was caused by human error with safety drill.

Fukishima was earthquake which it survived yet had design flaw with backup generators for coolant placed in basement which was flooded by tsunami which drowned them.

Earthquakes aren't really a problem here fault line is east of here from NZ up to Indonesia.

Uranium is radioactive while it's in the ground before it's mined for some reason people ignore this fact.

Nuclear runs flat out for fuel cycle which means cheaper off peak electricity at night when cars will be recharged it also means people could stop burning gas and wood for fires to heat in winter and allow airconditioning to be used at night in summer.

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 1:52pm:

Why unfortunate?

Because fusion reactors are always 40 years into the future.

lee wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 7:02pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 6:53pm: there's a surplus of energy on the grid during the day ... That must be why AEMO warns of outages. ;) And with less coal fired power and more solar and wind turbine it can't get better.

Really? You petrol heads need to stop sniffing the stuff and pay attention....

https://electricenergyonline.com/article/energy/category/ev-storage/143/872118/world-s-largest-solar-powered-vanadium-flow-battery-coming-to-south-australia.html

Again, you petrol heads need to stop sniffing the stuff and pay attention  - -

Again, you petrol heads need to stop sniffing the stuff and pay attention  - -

https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-flow-battery-breakthrough-combines-pv-generation-and-storage-in-one-device-21647/

Again, you petrol heads need to stop sniffing the stuff and pay attention  - -

https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-flow-battery-breakthrough-combines-pv-generation-and-storage-in-one-device-21647/

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 5:29pm:

Again, you petrol heads need to stop sniffing the stuff and pay attention  - - https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-flow-battery-breakthrough-combines-pv-generation-and-storage-in-one-device-21647/

"The research team says that the solar flow battery produced through the collaboration has set a new record efficiency of 20 per cent, besting most commercially available silicon solar cells, and was 40 per cent more efficient than the previous record holder for solar flow batteries, also developed by the Jin lab."

"Overall, the research team found that the new system’s long life and 20 per cent efficiency made it the best solar flow battery device yet.

“That’s 20 per cent efficiency any time you like,” Professor Jin said. “You can use the solar electricity right away during the day and get 20 percent, or you can use it in the evening from storage and get 20 per cent.” "

20% really? ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 5:22pm:

Really? You petrol heads need to stop sniffing the stuff and pay attention.... https://electricenergyonline.com/article/energy/category/ev-storage/143/872118/w orld-s-largest-solar-powered-vanadium-flow-battery-coming-to-south-australia.html

"An example for the potential use of vanadium redox flow batteries is the Rongke Power Development in Dalian, China, which utilises an 800 MWh battery containing almost 7000 tonnes of vanadium pentoxide."

https://www.engenium.com.au/knowledge/insight/161-vanadium-redox-flow-batteries.html

"On the supply side, world vanadium production totaled 80,000 MT last year, up slightly from 79,000 MT in 2016, as per the most recent data from the US Geological Survey. "

https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/battery-metals-investing/vanadium-investing/vanadium-producing-countries/

So 11.5 million 800Mw batteries. I wonder what the world wide need for 800Mw batteries would be?

lee wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 2:24pm:

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2021 at 1:52pm: Why unfortunate? Because fusion reactors are always 40 years into the future.

Do you understand the meaning of the term ‘always’ in this context?

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 11:21am:

lee wrote on Jan 6th, 2021 at 2:24pm: Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6th, 2021 at 1:52pm: Why unfortunate? Because fusion reactors are always 40 years into the future. Do you understand the meaning of the term ‘always’ in this context?

Yes. Since the 1970's it has always been 40 years away. ;)

20 Seconds?

So, as I understand it, there are a couple of things supposedly in the mix that we should be factoring in..

Fusion reaction as a form of energy, which at the moment can operate reliably for 20 seconds, and "solar flow batteries", which combine the disparate elements into a single "unit", and operate more efficiently than most commercial PV array systems on the market, but are "years away from commercialisation" (paraphrasing one of the lead designers).

So, while I realise that we "petrolheads" have been somewhat remiss in not keeping up with current developments, I would add that:

1) I was more asking about how existent and soon-to-be-available technologies might shape the move toward EV take up (and the above mooted technologies would not qualify on the "soon-to-be-available" score), and

2) If those who hold themselves out as the smartest people in the room wish to get stuck into the rest of us for "not keeping up", perhaps it might pay to take a more holistic "Enterprise Architecture" view of the problem, and lay out the entire transition "timeline", rather than providing links to as-yet unproven technologies that are literally years away from general availability in any realistic form (and likely years after EVs are "a thing").

How does the "whole picture" look? Grid, Transport, Tax revenue, Infrastructure, End-User cost comparisons (now to then) etc?

- Technology (including transition stages, costs (including shifts - tax revenue and others) etc. E.g. how does the transition between fossil fuel excise and RUCs look, for petrol vehicle "hold outs". In Victoria's latest budget, they've announced a small RUC for EV owners in the most recent budget...'cos they aren't getting fuel excise from them...and many of them, who've paid a high price for entry...aren't happy!

- Environmental footprint. E.g. Where - and how - would spent fuel rods be stored sustainably over the (very) long term, without negative environmental impacts on ground water/other environmental areas? (assuming nuclear energy becomes a bigger part of the mix). Which other "refined" materials are going to cause "end-of-life" problems in disposal/recycling etc? How does the through-life environmental cost of an EV compare to a petrol vehicle? You'd hope it would be better, but even now the benefits range from minimal to large, depending on who is conducting the study.

https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-how-electric-vehicles-help-to-tackle-climate-change

(Note, in glancing through that article, I don't note decommissioning and disposal comparisons noted).

- Existing technology decommissioning (timelines/costs). As an example, there are plenty of wind turbines spinning on farmland around Australia. Who pays the cost of decommissioning them when they are at end of life? (I understand that the towers are only "guaranteed" for a certain life-span, so generally an end-of-life turbine would be decommissioned and recycled...But what of the blades?

https://www.intelligentliving.co/what-happens-to-old-wind-turbines-the-answers-not-so-eco-friendly/

- Other environmental issues, surrounding through-life "costs" (decommissioning/recycling of spent <insert appropriate new tech here>)

- Sustainability. (Just how big are the world's reserves of Vanadium, as an example?)

- And so on.

Clearly it isn't as simple as "Let's stand up a couple of nuclear reactors, and that'll fix some of our energy problems into the future!" (Look at the sh*tfight that went on about where to store the spent 'rods (from Lucas Height???) as an example).

I'm all for the latest tech. (Although I'll miss the "relative" simplicity of my ICE vehicles).

But it has to be more sustainable "through-life" than what it replaces (else what's the point?) and

It has to be useable in a meaningful, practical way. Preferably sometime in my lifetime.  8-)

Apologies for the long-winded reply...

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 6^th, 2021 at 5:31pm:

Again, you petrol heads need to stop sniffing the stuff and pay attention  - - https://reneweconomy.com.au/solar-flow-battery-breakthrough-combines-pv-generation-and-storage-in-one-device-21647/

terrific idea.
My memory is the flow batteries last indefinitely.
A remote lighthouse in Tasmania used them for some time.


Quote:

.........   It combines the advantages of photovoltaic cells that convert sunlight into electricity – in this case, halide perovskites with an added layer of silicon – with the advantages of flow batteries, which use tanks of chemicals that can react to produce electricity and be recharged by the solar cells. The research team says that the resulting solar flow battery has set a new record efficiency of 20 per cent, besting most commercially available silicon solar cells, and is 40 per cent more efficient than the previous record holder for solar flow batteries, also developed by the Jin lab. “Thanks to a good match between the solar cell and the flow battery, the winning device maintained a high efficiency over hundreds of hours and hundreds of charge-discharge cycles while retaining most of its capacity,” the report said. The challenge, now, is to transform the solar flow batteries into practical renewable-energy solutions, starting with increasing the size and scale of the current small prototypes produced by the research lab. “Our eventual goal, if we can make this practical, is to target solar home systems,” said lead author of the study, UW–Madison graduate student Wenjie Li. “People who don’t have electrical grid access could use this device to have reliable electricity.”      ..................

https://www.solarchoice.net.au/blog/solar-flow-battery-breakthrough-combines-pv-generation-and-storage-in-one-device/#:~:text=Solar%20flow%20battery%20breakthrough%20combines%20PV%20generation%20and%20storage%20in%20one%20device&text=A%20US%2Dled%20research%20collaboration,the%20sun%20in%20one%20device.

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7^th, 2021 at 5:58pm:

How does the "whole picture" look? Grid, Transport, Tax revenue, Infrastructure, End-User cost comparisons (now to then) etc?

The ‘whole picture’ isn’t fully on view given the behind the scenes political games being played. To assume the roll out of any new technology will be conducted in the most practical (logical?) manner is to ignore the rampant idiocy of any number of old tech lobbyists (read contributors to political parties )


Quote:

- Environmental footprint. E.g. Where - and how - would spent fuel rods be stored sustainably over the (very) long term, without negative environmental impacts on ground water/other environmental areas? (assuming nuclear energy becomes a bigger part of the mix). Which other "refined" materials are going to cause "end-of-life" problems in disposal/recycling etc? How does the through-life environmental cost of an EV compare to a petrol vehicle? You'd hope it would be better, but even now the benefits range from minimal to large, depending on who is conducting the study.

You’ve got me confused here. Are you saying fusion generators contain fuel rods?
Also I wonder what you mean by ‘through-life environmental cost of an EV compare to a petrol vehicle’ . In making that calculation do you include the costs of global warming being accelerated by the older technology ?

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 9^th, 2021 at 7:52am:

In making that calculation do you include the costs of global warming being accelerated by the older technology ?

Perhaps you have proof positive of AGW. I have seen none. Models are not proof. And Hansen's description of AGW has been fasified. Maybe they need to change their description? ;)

Ayn Marx wrote on Jan 9^th, 2021 at 7:52am:

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 7th, 2021 at 5:58pm: How does the "whole picture" look? Grid, Transport, Tax revenue, Infrastructure, End-User cost comparisons (now to then) etc? The ‘whole picture’ isn’t fully on view given the behind the scenes political games being played. To assume the roll out of any new technology will be conducted in the most practical (logical?) manner is to ignore the rampant idiocy of any number of old tech lobbyists (read contributors to political parties ) Quote: - Environmental footprint. E.g. Where - and how - would spent fuel rods be stored sustainably over the (very) long term, without negative environmental impacts on ground water/other environmental areas?(assuming nuclear energy becomes a bigger part of the mix). Which other "refined" materials are going to cause "end-of-life" problems in disposal/recycling etc? How does the through-life environmental cost of an EV compare to a petrol vehicle? You'd hope it would be better, but even now the benefits range from minimal to large, depending on who is conducting the study. You’ve got me confused here. Are you saying fusion generators contain fuel rods? Also I wonder what you mean by ‘through-life environmental cost of an EV compare to a petrol vehicle’ . In making that calculation do you include the costs of global warming being accelerated by the older technology ?

No, I was referring to nuclear energy, as highlighted. Have they done away with using fuel rods in nuclear reactors these days? (I MUST be out of touch!)

On the second question, I was referring to the fact that there are a number of differing "studies" - even those about the through-life emissions of ICE vehicles over EVs - which muddies the waters, somewhat.
Additionally, I was referring to the environmental "cost" of decommissioning/disposal of end-of-life vehicles and components (ICE vs EV), as that data didn't seem to be included in the long-winded paper I linked.

Something which quantifies the overall emissions from manufacture, through-life use (including, as that study has attempted, the move from emissions-intensive energy sources to less-intensive/renewable sources), and ultimately the decommissioning/disposal "cost".

https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/hitech/toyota-to-showcase-new-solid-state-batteries-in-2021/news-story/c4df3da94fad5d59a054c80dea34cb17

There are signs things are looking up for 2021.

COVID-19 stalled a groundbreaking advancements in the development of electric cars, Toyota’s solid-state battery.

The Japanese giant was due to unveil a working prototype of its new electric-car tech at the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games, which was cancelled due to the pandemic. But according to Asian business publication, the Nikkei, this is now due some next year.

A solid state battery is a huge advancement over the current lithium-ion batteries used in electric cars.

Toyota is preparing to show off game-changing electric car tech in 2021.

In simple terms, a solid-state battery is smaller, faster to charge, more energy dense and less likely to catch fire than current batteries. The main reason is because the battery uses a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid or gel.

Estimates put range at more than 800km and up to 1000km, with the ability to charge in under 10 minutes.

These advancements would enable electric cars to be more practical than most petrol- or diesel-powered cars.

The batteries provide other benefits such as a roomier cabin and greater efficiency due to a lower vehicle weight.

Toyota is aiming for its next-generation batteries to hold about 90 per cent of their charge for up to 30 years, much longer than lithium-ion examples.

"t is worth noting, though, that solid state batteries are known to not perform too well in cold temperatures and their long-term durability was also brought into question in the past. Toyota has not specifically mentioned these two aspects in any of its press releases on the matter, but these have certainly been at least two of the challenges the manufacturer faced in creating solid state batteries designed for longer term use."

https://insideevs.com/news/460244/toyota-solid-state-battery-detailed/

lee wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 1:11pm:

"t is worth noting, though, that solid state batteries are known to not perform too well in cold temperatures and their long-term durability was also brought into question in the past. Toyota has not specifically mentioned these two aspects in any of its press releases on the matter, but these have certainly been at least two of the challenges the manufacturer faced in creating solid state batteries designed for longer term use." https://insideevs.com/news/460244/toyota-solid-state-battery-detailed/

Good thing they've been working on it for 10 years eh contrarian?

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 1:27pm:

Good thing they've been working on it for 10 years eh contrarian?

And they haven't said they have fixed the problem. ::)

lee wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 1:46pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2nd, 2021 at 1:27pm: Good thing they've been working on it for 10 years eh contrarian? And they haven't said they have fixed the problem. ::)

They haven't said they haven't fixed it either.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 1:47pm:

They haven't said they haven't fixed it either.

Exactly. And that's is what you would think they would do IF they have fixed it. ::)

lee wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 1:48pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2nd, 2021 at 1:47pm: They haven't said they haven't fixed it either. Exactly. And that's is what you would think they would do IF they have fixed it. ::)

Actually I'm more thinking the fact they are confident enough to release a prototype model this year is a decent sign that at the very least they are ready to start testing it.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 1:49pm:

Actually I'm more thinking the fact they are confident enough to release a prototype model this year is a decent sign that at the very least they are ready to start testing it.

With or without the fix?

lee wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 2:00pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2nd, 2021 at 1:49pm: Actually I'm more thinking the fact they are confident enough to release a prototype model this year is a decent sign that at the very least they are ready to start testing it. With or without the fix?

Jesus christ. With.


Seriously you would have questioned the invention of the wheel.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 2:03pm:

Jesus christ. With.

So they have fixed the problem and coyly just haven't said so. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lee wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 2:28pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2nd, 2021 at 2:03pm: Jesus christ. With. So they have fixed the problem and coyly just haven't said so. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Or they didn't feel the need to say they did and instyead just decided building a prototype that works would show they fixed it. FMD.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 2:29pm:

Or they didn't feel the need to say they did and instyead just decided building a prototype that works would show they fixed it.

Wow. And I thought Toyota was a successful company. And would trumpet its wins. ;)

lee wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 2:36pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2nd, 2021 at 2:29pm: Or they didn't feel the need to say they did and instyead just decided building a prototype that works would show they fixed it. Wow. And I thought Toyota was a successful company. And would trumpet its wins. ;)

Yeah, usually by actually just winning. E.g. building a working prototype.

lee wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 4:08pm:

Mix_Master wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 4:04pm: Makes me wonder just "when" is the right time to get rid of the petrol vehicles (while some money can still be had for them), and to get into an electric vehicle (again, presumably when they aren't as damnably expensive to "get into", and there is sufficient charging infrastructure around for longer distance driving etc.) As well as "sufficient charging infrastructure" the grid will need far more power.

Indeed, Lee.

My supplementary questions to all the Al Gore'blimeys: and where will that extra power come from, to recharge all those electric cars?

its a confusing field but i trust musk

he is a steve jobs type figure

he is the paradigm shift.

Frank wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 5:29pm:

lee wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 4:08pm: Mix_Master wrote on Jan 4th, 2021 at 4:04pm: Makes me wonder just "when" is the right time to get rid of the petrol vehicles (while some money can still be had for them), and to get into an electric vehicle (again, presumably when they aren't as damnably expensive to "get into", and there is sufficient charging infrastructure around for longer distance driving etc.) As well as "sufficient charging infrastructure" the grid will need far more power. Indeed, Lee. My supplementary questions to all the Al Gore'blimeys: and where will that extra power come from, to recharge all those electric cars?

Where will any of our power needs com e from

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 11:36am:

https://www.news.com.au/technology/motoring/hitech/toyota-to-showcase-new-solid-state-batteries-in-2021/news-story/c4df3da94fad5d59a054c80dea34cb17 There are signs things are looking up for 2021. COVID-19 stalled a groundbreaking advancements in the development of electric cars, Toyota’s solid-state battery. The Japanese giant was due to unveil a working prototype of its new electric-car tech at the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games, which was cancelled due to the pandemic. But according to Asian business publication, the Nikkei, this is now due some next year. A solid state battery is a huge advancement over the current lithium-ion batteries used in electric cars. Toyota is preparing to show off game-changing electric car tech in 2021. In simple terms, a solid-state battery is smaller, faster to charge, more energy dense and less likely to catch fire than current batteries. The main reason is because the battery uses a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid or gel. Estimates put range at more than 800km and up to 1000km, with the ability to charge in under 10 minutes. These advancements would enable electric cars to be more practical than most petrol- or diesel-powered cars. The batteries provide other benefits such as a roomier cabin and greater efficiency due to a lower vehicle weight. Toyota is aiming for its next-generation batteries to hold about 90 per cent of their charge for up to 30 years, much longer than lithium-ion examples.

"If" that battery tech stacks up in the plethora of what might be termed "normal" usage scenarios (including fixing any of the original issues re: cold climate use/longevity), then yes, it would be very much a game changer.

The next step is getting them to market at a price point similar to comparably equipped ICE vehicles.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2021 at 8:20pm:

Where will any of our power needs com e from

Probably not from renewables. And hen of course there is the back up. Fossil fuels, large batteries. 1200Mw/hours largest battery.

Adelaide -
"It said the battery would be built in stages and have an eventual power capacity of up to 250 megawatts - greater than an existing battery at Hornsdale in South Australia, but less than a 300MW facility planned for a site near Geelong.

"The AGL development differs markedly from existing and other proposed Australian batteries in having a storage capacity of 1,000 megawatt-hours, which equates to a duration of up to four hours."

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/nov/16/agl-long-duration-battery-planned-for-adelaide-marks-another-leap-for-renewables

So that would seem it will be about 275MW. And the ability to supply 4 hours is dependent on load.

Hmm ... subsidising fleet sales of EVs ... then having those vehicles reach the used car market at a much lower price to help private owners afford an EV.

Not a bad idea actually.  8-)

Australian businesses will be encouraged to invest in plug-in hybrid and electric car fleets in an attempt to increase private uptake by flooding the second-hand market with new vehicle technologies at lower prices.

The Morrison government has ruled out offering taxpayer subsidies for the private uptake of plug-in hybrids and battery electric cars, arguing in its long-awaited strategy that subsidies would not represent value for money in efforts to drive down carbon emissions.

https://i.imgur.com/yfew19L.jpg
The Morrison government has ruled out subsidies for electric vehicles, and is prioritising transition of commercial fleets.CREDIT:BLOOMBERG

Energy Minister Angus Taylor will argue a “fleet first” strategy for new technology passenger vehicles is the smartest way to help Australia’s “planned and managed” transition to low-emission cars, while ensuring charging infrastructure and the national energy grid can support a switch.

Low-emissions vehicles are a key plank in the government’s technology road map, which it will rely on if it is to meet both its Paris emission targets and a potential commitment to net zero by 2050.

Releasing a discussion paper informing the development of Australia’s Future Fuels Strategy, the federal government has identified five priority initiatives it says will make the most impact, including commercial fleets, essential infrastructure and improving information to motorists.

The strategy argues subsidising cars for private sales would cost taxpayers $195 to $747 per tonne of carbon dioxide equivalent, depending on the vehicle type and usage. It said that figure did not present value-for-money when compared to the Emissions Reduction Fund price of $16 per tonne of carbon emitted.

https://i.imgur.com/JBnu8Y6.jpg
Energy Minister Angus Taylor says a “fleet first” strategy was the smartest way to help the transition to low-emission cars.CREDIT:LOUIE DOUVIS

Mr Taylor said it was clear the future of road transport in Australia would be a mix of vehicle technologies and fuels and that Australians were already making the choice to switch to new vehicle technologies where it made economic sense.

“We are optimistic about how quickly the technology cost will reduce for other electric vehicles compared to traditional cars, making it an easier choice for consumers,” Mr Taylor said.

Hybrid sales almost doubled in Australia in the past year, increasing from 31,191 vehicles in 2019 to 60,417. Hybrids made up about 70 per cent of Toyota’s Camry and Rav4 sales, and about half of all Corolla sales in 2020.

Industry experts have criticised the federal government outlook for electric vehicle uptake over the next decade. They argue projections of 26 per cent in December’s Australian greenhouse gas emissions trends to 2030 were overly optimistic because it assumed numbers would spike despite a lack of policy and new state taxes slugging clean cars.

Several car manufacturers, including General Motors, have pledged to end production of petrol engine vehicles within the next decade while Britain has set a 2030 target to ban combustion engines.

The EV sector has also claimed the decisions by Victoria and South Australia to aim road-user taxes at drivers of electric vehicles would prevent the states from reaching their goal of net-zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050.

The plan justifies a focus on fleets because business vehicles generally travel greater distances than private vehicles, delivering better value-for-money through fuel and maintenance savings from new technologies and offsetting the price premium of buying the new technology.

In 2020, 40 per cent of light vehicles in Australia were sold to businesses.

“Supporting commercial fleet investment in new vehicle technologies will also drive uptake from private users, as fleet vehicles are generally replaced more regularly than private vehicles,” it says.

“This benefits the second-hand market and provides private consumers with second-hand vehicles at lower prices.”

Mr Taylor said the strategy would be underpinned by “significant” government investment, including the $74.5 million Future Fuels Package to invest in charging infrastructure at workplaces and in regional “blackspots”.

A move to electrify Australia’s passenger vehicle fleet was a centrepiece of the 2019 federal election campaign as the Morrison government aggressively criticised Labor’s election pledge that half of all new cars sold in 2030 would be electric.

Mr Taylor said the Coalition’s policy was focused on enabling consumer choice and supporting natural uptake, with government modelling showing Labor’s EV policy would have increased the price of cars by up to $4863 to “force people out of the cars they love and into EVs”.

The transport sector makes up 18 per cent of Australia’s carbon pollution with passenger vehicle emissions projected to drop 1.2 per cent every year to 2030 amid greater uptake of hybrid, electric and fuel-cell vehicles in the national fleet.

...

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/federal/morrison-government-rules-out-subsidies-in-electric-vehicle-strategy-20210204-p56zju.html

good post captain,

but i dont know about "flooding the market with cheap second hand electric vehicles' unless they can get the cost of batteries way way down.

who wants to buy a second hand electric car at 7 years old if the battery is about to fail and a new one is 10 k

So we will need fossil fuels to generate electricity for the electric cars to go 200 kms, rather than put the fossil fuel directly into the car to go 800-1000 kms.



The solar panels should go into the roads from which electric cars could access it.

In  a few decades....

I can't help wondering if (when) vehicle manufacturers will start producing vehicles with thin-film solar panels "imprinted" on the upper most surfaces (bonnet, boot and roof) to ostensibly charge the vehicle when at rest/in sunlight. Or possibly even while on the move (to some extent, as a "range extender").

Granted, the technology probably has a way to go before it would be a reliably quick charging method, but I'd be very surprised if it doesn't become a "thing" down the track.

Perhaps Tesla will prototype something like that?

Pretty sure it had been done in the Prius.

https://www.galetoyota.com/blog/what-does-the-toyota-prius-solar-panel-roof-feature-do/

Frank wrote on Feb 5^th, 2021 at 12:59pm:

The solar panels should go into the roads from which electric cars could access it.

Already tried and failed. Too much tyre rubber, grime etc.

lee wrote on Feb 5^th, 2021 at 3:52pm:

Frank wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 12:59pm: The solar panels should go into the roads from which electric cars could access it. Already tried and failed. Too much tyre rubber, grime etc.

Oh dear.


So it's coal, gas, nuclear power stations in the country to salve the conscience of city drivers in priuses and leafs and other 'electric' vehicles.

'Electric' is treated like a magic thing. The fetish is like that ocasio cortez bimbo - all look at moi and no dam clue.

At present, electric cars are either too small, or too expensive, or both, for me to want to have one.

Wolseley wrote on Feb 5^th, 2021 at 7:19pm:

At present, electric cars are either too small, or too expensive, or both, for me to want to have one.

Just today I was thinking an electric car might be right for our next one.
I put $30 of fuel in the camry on Friday and $40 today. it was pretty empty on friday and is full now.
How much would that cost in an electric car ?


I commute 20 kms a day ot the bus stop and back.
Our regular weekend drives are 150 kms for the round trip.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 7^th, 2021 at 2:47pm:

Wolseley wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 7:19pm: At present, electric cars are either too small, or too expensive, or both, for me to want to have one. Just today I was thinking an electric car might be right for our next one. I put $30 of fuel in the camry on Friday and $40 today. it was pretty empty on friday and is full now. How much would that cost in an electric car ? I commute 20 kms a day ot the bus stop and back. Our regular weekend drives are 150 kms for the round trip.

Siounds perfect for an electric car to be honest

Frank wrote on Feb 5^th, 2021 at 5:24pm:

lee wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 3:52pm: Frank wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 12:59pm: The solar panels should go into the roads from which electric cars could access it. Already tried and failed. Too much tyre rubber, grime etc. Oh dear. So it's coal, gas, nuclear power stations in the country to salve the conscience of city drivers in priuses and leafs and other 'electric' vehicles. 'Electric' is treated like a magic thing. The fetish is like that ocasio cortez bimbo - all look at moi and no dam clue.

Its almost as though theres no where else to whack solar panels

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 7^th, 2021 at 8:02pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Feb 7th, 2021 at 2:47pm: Wolseley wrote on Feb 5th, 2021 at 7:19pm: At present, electric cars are either too small, or too expensive, or both, for me to want to have one. Just today I was thinking an electric car might be right for our next one. I put $30 of fuel in the camry on Friday and $40 today. it was pretty empty on friday and is full now. How much would that cost in an electric car ? I commute 20 kms a day ot the bus stop and back. Our regular weekend drives are 150 kms for the round trip. Siounds perfect for an electric car to be honest

pretty much my thinking too.
Bet you could not put $70 of electricity in to an electric car over a weekend.
Still it'll last me 2 weeks easily

issuevoter wrote on Jan 4^th, 2021 at 10:54pm:

I am convinced. Having read all the condemnations of renewable energy and electric vehicles by the pundits on Ozpolitic, I realise neither will ever get over their immense teething problems. This proves that coal and petrol are better options. Anyway, it was all just a conspiracy by the Left in support of the Great Reset of the world economy.

It was a Geopolitical plot by pedophiles in pizza parlors to get rid of Dopey Donald Trump without a Trump recycle option.

Just read an interesting article on Fairfax/Nine, about the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, based on supply/demand cost drivers.

I found this bit interesting...


Quote:

"Ten years from now we will be in another energy world. EVs will undercut combustion cars on purchase price by 2023 to 2024."

*laughs* Not  here, while we have a Coalition Government in power, they won't!.

I imagine that we will be amongst the last countries to fully transition to EVs, as manufacturers "dump" the last of their ICE vehicles here...


https://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/the-oil-industry-is-facing-its-biggest-squeeze-in-history-20210219-p573we.html

Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19^th, 2021 at 7:30am:

Just read an interesting article on Fairfax/Nine, about the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, based on supply/demand cost drivers. I found this bit interesting... Quote: "Ten years from now we will be in another energy world. EVs will undercut combustion cars on purchase price by 2023 to 2024." *laughs* Not  here, while we have a Coalition Government in power, they won't!. I imagine that we will be amongst the last countries to fully transition to EVs, as manufacturers "dump" the last of their ICE vehicles here... https://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/the-oil-industry-is-facing-its-biggest-squeeze-in-history-20210219-p573we.html

Do you expect Scott to buy you a car?

I'll buy one when the manufacturers offer one that suits my needs and stacks up financially.

There are plenty of privately installed commercial charging stations in my hood, I just need the right car.

Gordon wrote on Feb 19^th, 2021 at 7:42am:

Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 7:30am: Just read an interesting article on Fairfax/Nine, about the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, based on supply/demand cost drivers. I found this bit interesting... Quote: "Ten years from now we will be in another energy world. EVs will undercut combustion cars on purchase price by 2023 to 2024." *laughs* Not  here, while we have a Coalition Government in power, they won't!. I imagine that we will be amongst the last countries to fully transition to EVs, as manufacturers "dump" the last of their ICE vehicles here... https://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/the-oil-industry-is-facing-its-biggest-squeeze-in-history-20210219-p573we.html Do you expect Scott to buy you a car? I'll buy one when the manufacturers offer one that suits my needs and stacks up financially. There are plenty of privately installed commercial charging stations in my hood, I just need the right car.

No.

I'm referring to existent policy settings, which do nothing to encourage uptake of EVs (by, for example, lowering tax imposts et al.)

5 years past, you could make a case that certain existent policy settings were probably warranted, to"protect" local manufacturing (given that there are no locally-manufactured EVs).

Now, though, you'd think that if EVs are going to be "price competitive" with similarly-specced ICE vehicles, certain incentives need to be provided, so consumers are more prepared to buy the things.

Given past history, I doubt that the Coalition would be likely to provide those incentives.

And if a base model Nissan Leaf (the cheapest EV on the market) still costs in excess of $50K in a few years' time, I won't be buying one either.

Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19^th, 2021 at 8:16am:

Gordon wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 7:42am: Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 7:30am: Just read an interesting article on Fairfax/Nine, about the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, based on supply/demand cost drivers. I found this bit interesting... Quote: "Ten years from now we will be in another energy world. EVs will undercut combustion cars on purchase price by 2023 to 2024." *laughs* Not  here, while we have a Coalition Government in power, they won't!. I imagine that we will be amongst the last countries to fully transition to EVs, as manufacturers "dump" the last of their ICE vehicles here... https://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/the-oil-industry-is-facing-its-biggest-squeeze-in-history-20210219-p573we.html Do you expect Scott to buy you a car? I'll buy one when the manufacturers offer one that suits my needs and stacks up financially. There are plenty of privately installed commercial charging stations in my hood, I just need the right car. No. I'm referring to existent policy settings, which do nothing to encourage uptake of EVs (by, for example, lowering tax imposts et al.) 5 years past, you could make a case that certain existent policy settings were probably warranted, to"protect" local manufacturing (given that there are no locally-manufactured EVs). Now, though, you'd think that if EVs are going to be "price competitive" with similarly-specced ICE vehicles, certain incentives need to be provided, so consumers are more prepared to buy the things. Given past history, I doubt that the Coalition would be likely to provide those incentives. And if a base model Nissan Leaf (the cheapest EV on the market) still costs in excess of $50K in a few years' time, I won't be buying one either.

Sorry, I don't see why international car manufacturers should receive a  tax break on one model and not another.

Toyota is about to launch Hybrid Camry but we're not getting the plug in version.  Do you know why?

Gordon wrote on Feb 19^th, 2021 at 9:24am:

Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 8:16am: Gordon wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 7:42am: Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 7:30am: Just read an interesting article on Fairfax/Nine, about the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, based on supply/demand cost drivers. I found this bit interesting... Quote: "Ten years from now we will be in another energy world. EVs will undercut combustion cars on purchase price by 2023 to 2024." *laughs* Not  here, while we have a Coalition Government in power, they won't!. I imagine that we will be amongst the last countries to fully transition to EVs, as manufacturers "dump" the last of their ICE vehicles here... https://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/the-oil-industry-is-facing-its-biggest-squeeze-in-history-20210219-p573we.html Do you expect Scott to buy you a car? I'll buy one when the manufacturers offer one that suits my needs and stacks up financially. There are plenty of privately installed commercial charging stations in my hood, I just need the right car. No. I'm referring to existent policy settings, which do nothing to encourage uptake of EVs (by, for example, lowering tax imposts et al.) 5 years past, you could make a case that certain existent policy settings were probably warranted, to"protect" local manufacturing (given that there are no locally-manufactured EVs). Now, though, you'd think that if EVs are going to be "price competitive" with similarly-specced ICE vehicles, certain incentives need to be provided, so consumers are more prepared to buy the things. Given past history, I doubt that the Coalition would be likely to provide those incentives. And if a base model Nissan Leaf (the cheapest EV on the market) still costs in excess of $50K in a few years' time, I won't be buying one either. Sorry, I don't see why international car manufacturers should receive a  tax break on one model and not another. Toyota is about to launch Hybrid Camry but we're not getting the plug in version.  Do you know why?

No.

Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19^th, 2021 at 12:07pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 9:24am: Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 8:16am: Gordon wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 7:42am: Mix_Master wrote on Feb 19th, 2021 at 7:30am: Just read an interesting article on Fairfax/Nine, about the transition from fossil fuels to renewables, based on supply/demand cost drivers. I found this bit interesting... Quote: "Ten years from now we will be in another energy world. EVs will undercut combustion cars on purchase price by 2023 to 2024." *laughs* Not  here, while we have a Coalition Government in power, they won't!. I imagine that we will be amongst the last countries to fully transition to EVs, as manufacturers "dump" the last of their ICE vehicles here... https://www.theage.com.au/business/markets/the-oil-industry-is-facing-its-biggest-squeeze-in-history-20210219-p573we.html Do you expect Scott to buy you a car? I'll buy one when the manufacturers offer one that suits my needs and stacks up financially. There are plenty of privately installed commercial charging stations in my hood, I just need the right car. No. I'm referring to existent policy settings, which do nothing to encourage uptake of EVs (by, for example, lowering tax imposts et al.) 5 years past, you could make a case that certain existent policy settings were probably warranted, to"protect" local manufacturing (given that there are no locally-manufactured EVs). Now, though, you'd think that if EVs are going to be "price competitive" with similarly-specced ICE vehicles, certain incentives need to be provided, so consumers are more prepared to buy the things. Given past history, I doubt that the Coalition would be likely to provide those incentives. And if a base model Nissan Leaf (the cheapest EV on the market) still costs in excess of $50K in a few years' time, I won't be buying one either. Sorry, I don't see why international car manufacturers should receive a  tax break on one model and not another. Toyota is about to launch Hybrid Camry but we're not getting the plug in version.  Do you know why? No.

For the same reason we didn't get the Prius or RAV plugin.
Toyota knows their onions and the $ just won't work.

The good news is the RAV4 plugin sales in USA have by a long way exceeded expectations so in a year or 2 they'll re evaluate our market.

Australia is a very hard car market because we have low volumes but very high choice of brand and models.

Also, don't you think subsidising lekky cars is a tax break for the wealthy?

Does any of it really matter?

Do nothing, and let the manufacturers charge way over the odds under the current tax settings, and people will continue to buy ICE vehicles. And, of course, get stung if/when oil does go North of $USD150 per barrel.

Or "help" the adoption rates by providing incentives to purchase (via reduced taxes payable on those vehicles). As I understand it, they do exactly that in  the U.S, by providing Federal Tax rebates for those who purchase EVs and PHEVs.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml

If, via a reduction in various taxes, the cost of an EV becomes comparable to an equivalent ICE vehicle, is it then "just" a tax break for the wealthy? Would only wealthy people buy the equivalent - and equivalently priced - ICE vehicle?

Sure. I get the "why should one vehicle be "subsidised", and not the other. Primarily, to encourage that shift toward an in-principle lower emissions private vehicle fleet, perhaps?

Because sure as eggs, if the current situation - including policy settings - remains the same, the "penetration" of EVs in this market won't rise beyond the current 0.5% of total sales in a hurry...

It's a buy USA scheme in a cloak.

Check where the top selling USA electric cars are made.

Quote:

...........   “While our green energy and industry initiatives may one day significantly outscale our iron ore business due to the global demand for renewable energy, our commitment to iron ore and resources globally remains indefeasible.” According to Forrest, green energy usage will also reduce Fortescue’s operating costs significantly. Through Fortescue Future Industries (FFI), Fortescue is developing a ship design powered by green ammonia and testing the use of renewable energy to convert iron ore to green iron without coal in Western Australia’s Pilbara region. It is also testing large battery technology in its haul trucks, hydrogen fuel cell power for its drill rigs and technology that enables its locomotives to run on green ammonia. Fortescue chief executive Elizabeth Gaines said the company was working towards decarbonising its entire mobile fleet and fixed plant through the next phase of hydrogen and battery electric energy solutions.        .................

https://www.australianmining.com.au/news/fortescue-suggests-green-power-may-outscale-iron-ore-business/

Testing is always good.
The outcome not necessarily so.