Declassified intelligence documents shed light on 1999 Timor Leste independence.   It appears that John Howard's narrative was not quite the whole truth, if the truth at all...    ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 29^th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

Declassified intelligence documents shed light on 1999 Timor Leste independence.   It appears that John Howard's narrative was not quite the whole truth, if the truth at all...    ::)

That explains something which occurred within my own circle.  I was badgering someone about the delay in getting involved...and was brushed off.  That goes to possibly explain it.

What a surprise. We've been smacking over that country for 50 years.

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 29^th, 2019 at 2:49pm:

Declassified intelligence documents shed light on 1999 Timor Leste independence.   It appears that John Howard's narrative was not quite the whole truth, if the truth at all...    ::)

Did you see 4 Corners on Monday night?


Four Corners Secrets, Spies And Trials

8:31PM - 9:18PM

CC

National security versus the public's right to know. The steps Australia's government took to prosecute a former spy and his lawyer for conspiring to reveal secret intelligence operations aimed at a foreign government.

The web deepens: 'Infuriated' Alexander Downer tried to get US officials to mask Australian inaction on East Timor   :o ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 30^th, 2019 at 3:28pm:

The web deepens: 'Infuriated' Alexander Downer tried to get US officials to mask Australian inaction on East Timor   :o ::)

Again our desire not to piss off the Indonesians goes back to Whitlam

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2019 at 12:09pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Aug 30th, 2019 at 3:28pm: The web deepens: 'Infuriated' Alexander Downer tried to get US officials to mask Australian inaction on East Timor   :o ::) Again our desire not to piss off the Indonesians goes back to Whitlam

Actually, it goes back to Menzies.  The West New Guinea affair predates Whitlam's ascendency to anything except being an MHR.  Australia had it's bum royally kicked by the unwillingness of our, "great and powerful friends" to intervene on our behalf because the Yanks needed the Indonesians more than they needed us - so much so we went to war in Vietnam in order keep the Yanks involved in the region.  Indonesia was important because it controlled the egress straits from the Pacific (Guam where the US Navy had a major submarine base for Polarise equipped submarines) to the Indian Ocean which would put their missiles in range of the central Soviet Union.

If all Indonesians migrated to the moon, we would probably be better off. We will just have to pay a little more for our toothpaste and Nikes.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 7^th, 2019 at 2:00pm:

If all Indonesians migrated to the moon, we would probably be better off. We will just have to pay a little more for our toothpaste and Nikes.

How does that statement add to the thread, Unsub?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7^th, 2019 at 2:31pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 7th, 2019 at 2:00pm: If all Indonesians migrated to the moon, we would probably be better off. We will just have to pay a little more for our toothpaste and Nikes. How does that statement add to the thread, Unsub?   ::)

Indonesia does not really offer much to Australia other than cheap mass-produced goods. But, we seem to pay the difference with a half-billion-dollar bribe every year to them.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 7^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 7th, 2019 at 2:31pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 7th, 2019 at 2:00pm: If all Indonesians migrated to the moon, we would probably be better off. We will just have to pay a little more for our toothpaste and Nikes. How does that statement add to the thread, Unsub?   ::) Indonesia does not really offer much to Australia other than cheap mass-produced goods. But, we seem to pay the difference with a half-billion-dollar bribe every year to them.

Really?  Seems to offer a lot to many Australians who visit Bali their holiday island every year.

However, your comment does not explain how that adds to a thread about Australia and East Timor...   ::)

Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8^th, 2019 at 10:38am:

Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region.

If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese?

Gee, what a surprise (sarc. ::)) to find out that
A. the libs lied, and continue to do so
B. When america says jump, their only question is 'how high sir'.

Is anyone really surprised by this news?

As I understand it the undersea oil field straddles both Australian and Timorese territorial waters. So it is just Timorese oil. let's hope Indonesia doesn't start suck it up because effectively they'll be stealing our oil.

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 8^th, 2019 at 4:17pm:

As I understand it the undersea oil field straddles both Australian and Timorese territorial waters. So it is just Timorese oil. let's hope Indonesia doesn't start suck it up because effectively they'll be stealing our oil.

"Our oil"?  You don't think that the East Timorese might have something to say about that?   ::)

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 8^th, 2019 at 4:17pm:

As I understand it the undersea oil field straddles both Australian and Timorese territorial waters. So it is just Timorese oil. let's hope Indonesia doesn't start suck it up because effectively they'll be stealing our oil.

That is correct, the problem is that how do you define the split. Personally, I'd favour if 30% of the field is in East Timor waters, they get 30% of the profit, if 20% is in Australia, we get 20% of the profits, and the we split the rest.


Problem is, oil companies are playing hardball to try and nick more profits.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8^th, 2019 at 10:38am:

Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region.

Do you have any understanding as to why it may well be "a basketcase" country?


In terms of their own independence and thus ability to run things on their own, they are a toddler. It was colonised by the Portuguese in the 16th century and was run by them up until 1975, with a few years in between of Japanese occupation. After that the Indonesians took over, and when independence occurred, the Indonesians destroyed just about everything they could.


There is for instance still a belief that the Dili National Hospital is not somewhere you want to go, more people go to the clinic a US doctor set up in the 1980s. This was because during the occupation the Indonesian military would routinely patrol the hospital looking for resistance fighters who may have been injured to round up and shoot.

Even outside assistance is a pain in the ass, in that we don't give them enough help to completely solve a problem. Plus everything is interlinked. E.g the education is lagging behind, because the children only do 4.5 hours of schooling and get out at 1 pm. Why? because they have to help their parents with the subsistence farming, or their shops etc, this is because the profits are so low, they can't afford to hire people, so unemployment is high. Because its subsistence farming, the nutrition is poor, so not only is there physical retardation, there is also mental retardation, which then feeds back into hte education system.


Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9^th, 2019 at 10:18am:

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:17pm: As I understand it the undersea oil field straddles both Australian and Timorese territorial waters. So it is just Timorese oil. let's hope Indonesia doesn't start suck it up because effectively they'll be stealing our oil. That is correct, the problem is that how do you define the split. Personally, I'd favour if 30% of the field is in East Timor waters, they get 30% of the profit, if 20% is in Australia, we get 20% of the profits, and the we split the rest. Problem is, oil companies are playing hardball to try and nick more profits.

They aren't trying to nick more of anything because most of the oil field is Australian territorial waters. About three quarters.

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 9^th, 2019 at 4:58pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:18am: Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:17pm: As I understand it the undersea oil field straddles both Australian and Timorese territorial waters. So it is just Timorese oil. let's hope Indonesia doesn't start suck it up because effectively they'll be stealing our oil. That is correct, the problem is that how do you define the split. Personally, I'd favour if 30% of the field is in East Timor waters, they get 30% of the profit, if 20% is in Australia, we get 20% of the profits, and the we split the rest. Problem is, oil companies are playing hardball to try and nick more profits. They aren't trying to nick more of anything because most of the oil field is Australian territorial waters. About three quarters.

About 20 percent is in Timor waters, I'm lead to believe, yet they don't get 20% of the profits. Comfortable with that?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8^th, 2019 at 4:08pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 10:38am: Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese?

I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9^th, 2019 at 10:27am:

Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations.

200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles).

The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together?

I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 4:41pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:08pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 10:38am: Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese? I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region.

Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub?  Do you believe that is fair or just?  'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing.  ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 5:39pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 4:41pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:08pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 10:38am: Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese? I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region. Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub?  Do you believe that is fair or just?  'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing.  ::)

Protecting Australia's interests is not cheating. ANd it wasn't their 'legal income' since Australia has done most of the exploring, investing, extraction, liberation, financial propping up of a barely viable half island a couple of whose sons went to uni in Portugal and had 'national' aspirations.

Emotionally incontinent formulations like yours here and elsewhere prove only one thing, Bwian.

Frank wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 7:24pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:39pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 4:41pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:08pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 10:38am: Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese? I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region. Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub?  Do you believe that is fair or just?  'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing.  ::) Protecting Australia's interests is not cheating. ANd it wasn't their 'legal income' since Australia has done most of the exploring, investing, extraction, liberation, financial propping up of a barely viable half island a couple of whose sons went to uni in Portugal and had 'national' aspirations.

Soren, there is what is considered fair and just in negotiations and what isn't.  Australia acted unfair and unjustly in negotiating the oil leases with Timor Leste.  Time you recognised that,as the World Court did.  Australia was caught out, fair and square.

There is a world of difference between "protecting our interests" and cheating, Soren.


Quote:

Emotionally incontinent formulations like yours here and elsewhere prove only one thing, Bwian.

https://media.tenor.com/images/1a34294406c00361640ea4946bc25f4b/tenor.gif

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 5:39pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 4:41pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:08pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 10:38am: Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese? I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region. Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub?  Do you believe that is fair or just?  'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing.  ::)

If Australia did not try to take advantage of our neighbours from time to time, we would probably be speaking Indonesian by now.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 9:55pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:39pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 4:41pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:08pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 10:38am: Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese? I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region. Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub?  Do you believe that is fair or just?  'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing.  ::) If Australia did not try to take advantage of our neighbours from time to time, we would probably be speaking Indonesian by now.

Really?  Why?  Indonesia has never shown any serious interest in attempting to invade Australia.  ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 8:33pm:

Frank wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 7:24pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:39pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 4:41pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:08pm: [quote author=WorldSacred link=1567054186/11#11 date=1567903133]Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese? I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region. Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub?  Do you believe that is fair or just?  'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing.  ::) Protecting Australia's interests is not cheating. ANd it wasn't their 'legal income' since Australia has done most of the exploring, investing, extraction, liberation, financial propping up of a barely viable half island a couple of whose sons went to uni in Portugal and had 'national' aspirations.

Soren, there is what is considered fair and just in negotiations and what isn't.  Australia acted unfair and unjustly in negotiating the oil leases with Timor Leste.  Time you recognised that,as the World Court did.  Australia was caught out, fair and square.

There is a world of difference between "protecting our interests" and cheating, Soren.

[quote]

If Australia thought East Timor was making unfair claims then it was natural to seek ways to protect and promote Australia's own interests.


The Chinese are listening in and stealing Western intellectual property. Every embassy is bugged, one way or another. In grass huts it's easier to detect it.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 5:01pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:27am: Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations. 200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles). The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together? I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years.

And how long did that take, at least 100 years.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 7:38am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:01pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:27am: Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations. 200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles). The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together? I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years. And how long did that take, at least 100 years.

As explained, it took Australia about 30 years to have sufficiently first-world living conditions after the first fleet arrived. I don't believe East Timor needs that amount of time to get to first world living conditions.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 1:07pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 7:38am: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:01pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:27am: Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations. 200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles). The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together? I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years. And how long did that take, at least 100 years. As explained, it took Australia about 30 years to have sufficiently first-world living conditions after the first fleet arrived. I don't believe East Timor needs that amount of time to get to first world living conditions.

Did it though?

Frank wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 11:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 8:33pm: Frank wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 7:24pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:39pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 4:41pm: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 4:08pm: [quote author=WorldSacred link=1567054186/11#11 date=1567903133]Well, East Timor seems to be a basketcase country that is reliant on the world to keep their country afloat. And Australia seems to be the country that has to bail out the East Timorese. It seems realistic that we collect the profits from oil revenue that is in the East Timor region. If you believe that, then I take it you're not in favour of Australia baling out the East Timorese? I am in favour of East Timor standing on their own without the need for other countries to bail them out of their self-inflicted problems. Helping East Timor achieve independence is one thing. But, the help should have ended over 10 years ago. Letting the East Timorese be a burden on the Australian taxpayer is something that should not happen. bugger them if they don't like Australia making money off of oil and gas in the region. Tell us, what do you believe about first world countries next door to Timor Leste who actively seek to cheat them out of their legal income from the oil fields they have own by bugging their negotiating team, by stealing their oil, UnSub?  Do you believe that is fair or just?  'cause that is essentially what Australia was found to be doing.  ::) Protecting Australia's interests is not cheating. ANd it wasn't their 'legal income' since Australia has done most of the exploring, investing, extraction, liberation, financial propping up of a barely viable half island a couple of whose sons went to uni in Portugal and had 'national' aspirations. Soren, there is what is considered fair and just in negotiations and what isn't.  Australia acted unfair and unjustly in negotiating the oil leases with Timor Leste.  Time you recognised that,as the World Court did.  Australia was caught out, fair and square. There is a world of difference between "protecting our interests" and cheating, Soren. [quote] If Australia thought East Timor was making unfair claims then it was natural to seek ways to protect and promote Australia's own interests. The Chinese are listening in and stealing Western intellectual property. Every embassy is bugged, one way or another. In grass huts it's easier to detect it.

Brian Ross belongs to the kumbya Gentlemen don’t read other Gentlemen’s mail school of international relations and diplomacy.  I would expect our representatives to try and get every advantage, fair or not.  No one gets credit for doing the right thing, in fact it’s a mugs game.

It’s the real world, not a forum debating club, Brian’s tears wont wash away realpolitik.

Brian Ross belongs to the kumbya Gentlemen don’t read other Gentlemen’s mail school of international relations and diplomacy.  I would expect our representatives to try and get every advantage, fair or not.  No one gets credit for doing the right thing, in fact it’s a mugs game.

It’s the real world, not a forum debating club, Brian’s tears wont wash away realpolitik.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10^th, 2019 at 10:56pm:

Really?  Why?  Indonesia has never shown any serious interest in attempting to invade Australia.  ::) ::)

To YOUR knowledge, Indonesia has not shown any serious interest. But, they have shown a great deal of interest in acquiring all this farmland to unload their farmers to expand.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:20pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 1:07pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 7:38am: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:01pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:27am: Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations. 200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles). The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together? I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years. And how long did that take, at least 100 years. As explained, it took Australia about 30 years to have sufficiently first-world living conditions after the first fleet arrived. I don't believe East Timor needs that amount of time to get to first world living conditions. Did it though?

Yes, Kinne. Perhaps you might want to read up on history books about how the first settlers could not survive beyond starvation levels until they had things under control by 1815.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 2:37pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 10:56pm: Really?  Why?  Indonesia has never shown any serious interest in attempting to invade Australia.  ::) ::) To YOUR knowledge, Indonesia has not shown any serious interest. But, they have shown a great deal of interest in acquiring all this farmland to unload their farmers to expand.

My knowledge of Australian - Indonesian interactions is quite extensive, UnSub.  Far more extensive than yours.  Now, if you have knowledge of this "serious interest in invading Australia," put it up and let us examine it.  Otherwise, please stop bullshitting.   ::)

Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 10:03pm:

Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia.

Who is relying on the MSM, apart from yourself?

I am relying on academic journal articles, books and so on.

Now, your failure to produce evidence to back your claims seems to indicate there is none.  You are just bullshitting.  Tsk, tsk.   I'll accept this as your flag of surrender.    ::)

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 3:06pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 2:20pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 1:07pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 7:38am: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:01pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 10:27am: Its not an easy path for Timor Leste (I single handedly refuse to use East Timor. But to suggest its a basketcase speaks to the usual first world mentality surrounding developing nations. 200 years ago, our new Australian settlers had got their act together and made the settlement first-world society. Atleast, a first world society in terms of what an 1820s era could give them. Perhaps a higher standard of living than what much of England and the Americas could exhibit. This, on top of the fact that the only supplies they could get would take about 6 months to get to them. The how-to develop a settlement already established in their psyche. The tools available. The need to survive well and truly motivating them. And they managed to do this in isolation from outside help (atleast in terms of nobody to help them for thousands of nautical miles). The East Timorese, you can tell me all sorts of stories. I had a book on the East Timorese road to independence and what they had to go through. Unfortunately, I have not seen the book around my house for over 10 years. But, seriously, how long does it take a country, with a first world country next door to help them, get their act together? I can imagine that the East Timorese' education is impeded by the need to manage their farms. But they have been doing that for the last few hundred years. And how long did that take, at least 100 years. As explained, it took Australia about 30 years to have sufficiently first-world living conditions after the first fleet arrived. I don't believe East Timor needs that amount of time to get to first world living conditions. Did it though? Yes, Kinne. Perhaps you might want to read up on history books about how the first settlers could not survive beyond starvation levels until they had things under control by 1815.

So in other words what you're saying is they didn't starve by 1815, hardly first world.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 11^th, 2019 at 11:33pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:03pm: Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia. Who is relying on the MSM, apart from yourself? I am relying on academic journal articles, books and so on. Now, your failure to produce evidence to back your claims seems to indicate there is none.  You are just bullshitting.  Tsk, tsk.   I'll accept this as your flag of surrender.    ::)

Oh, come on... This issue would be in the news, had the desire to take over Australia been made public knowledge. You might want to also consider that the United States wants Australia to be third world. They don't care who is in charge of Australia. They just want us to be poor. Are you going to deny that too?

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:25am:

So in other words what you're saying is they didn't starve by 1815, hardly first world.

I am saying that the first settlers had gotten the colony in order to the point that they were not starving like they were back in the late 1790s. Stories, about how they would die of malnutrition or collapse waiting for their rations, exist.

Perhaps you want to show me stories about how it was easy to set up a colony with few problems, to contradict my claims.

Who's debating that, you said first world society. By your own admission, it wasn't by 1815.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:39am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 11:33pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:03pm: Yeah, well, if the media won't put up footage of a mass murder attack, they definitely won't put up information on Indonesia's designs for Australia. Who is relying on the MSM, apart from yourself? I am relying on academic journal articles, books and so on. Now, your failure to produce evidence to back your claims seems to indicate there is none.  You are just bullshitting.  Tsk, tsk.   I'll accept this as your flag of surrender.    ::) Oh, come on... This issue would be in the news, had the desire to take over Australia been made public knowledge.

There is no evidence, anywhere that Indonesia seriously considered invading Australia since the formation of Indonesia in 1945.   As you are unable to provide evidence for your assertion, except by innuendo, I think it's a non-starter.   Thank you for your surrender, UnSub.   ::)


Quote:

You might want to also consider that the United States wants Australia to be third world. They don't care who is in charge of Australia. They just want us to be poor. Are you going to deny that too?

There is no evidence that the US wants Australia poor.  Indeed, I personally can't believe they do.  Poor people can't buy expensive US goods.  They want us at least moderately well off to afford all their wonderful toys and geegaws.   They don't want us to challenger their world supremacy, that's all.   ::)

Looks like a pretty complicated situation. Most of the gas and oil fields sit in Australian waters or their zone of control. So a 50-50 split with Timor is ridiculous. And seeing that Timor doesn't have the ability to suck the oil and gas out do they employ Australian or Indonesian companies to do so. So all those costs of extraction don't fall on the shoulders of Timor. If Timor does employ an Indonesian company to do the drilling can they really be trusted to cooperate and not suck most out for themselves. The most fair scenario would be for Australian companies be in control of the whole operation and give Timor around 20% of the profits. That's my opinion.

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:37pm:

Looks like a pretty complicated situation. Most of the gas and oil fields sit in Australian waters or their zone of control. So a 50-50 split with Timor is ridiculous. And seeing that Timor doesn't have the ability to suck the oil and gas out do they employ Australian or Indonesian companies to do so. So all those costs of extraction don't fall on the shoulders of Timor. If Timor does employ an Indonesian company to do the drilling can they really be trusted to cooperate and not suck most out for themselves. The most fair scenario would be for Australian companies be in control of the whole operation and give Timor around 20% of the profits. That's my opinion.

Immaterial who they employ to do the work.  The oil and gas has been decreed to belong to Timor Leste, Hammer.  QED.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:44pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 12:37pm: Looks like a pretty complicated situation. Most of the gas and oil fields sit in Australian waters or their zone of control. So a 50-50 split with Timor is ridiculous. And seeing that Timor doesn't have the ability to suck the oil and gas out do they employ Australian or Indonesian companies to do so. So all those costs of extraction don't fall on the shoulders of Timor. If Timor does employ an Indonesian company to do the drilling can they really be trusted to cooperate and not suck most out for themselves. The most fair scenario would be for Australian companies be in control of the whole operation and give Timor around 20% of the profits. That's my opinion. Immaterial who they employ to do the work.  The oil and gas has been decreed to belong to Timor Leste, Hammer.  QED.   ::)

Why is that when the olid fields extend as far south as the same latitude of Darwin? That's rubbish.

Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:48pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 12:44pm: Mr Hammer wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 12:37pm: Looks like a pretty complicated situation. Most of the gas and oil fields sit in Australian waters or their zone of control. So a 50-50 split with Timor is ridiculous. And seeing that Timor doesn't have the ability to suck the oil and gas out do they employ Australian or Indonesian companies to do so. So all those costs of extraction don't fall on the shoulders of Timor. If Timor does employ an Indonesian company to do the drilling can they really be trusted to cooperate and not suck most out for themselves. The most fair scenario would be for Australian companies be in control of the whole operation and give Timor around 20% of the profits. That's my opinion. Immaterial who they employ to do the work.  The oil and gas has been decreed to belong to Timor Leste, Hammer.  QED.   ::) Why is that when the olid fields extend as far south as the same latitude of Darwin? That's rubbish.

That is what the Australian Government agreed to.  Take it up with the Department of Foreign Affairs.  This is not the place to debate it.  Defence is about defending what the Government decrees needs defending, Hammer.   ::)

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 7:47am:

Who's debating that, you said first world society. By your own admission, it wasn't by 1815.

You can put together a first-world society within 27 years of inception.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 12:09pm:

There is no evidence, anywhere that Indonesia seriously considered invading Australia since the formation of Indonesia in 1945.   As you are unable to provide evidence for your assertion, except by innuendo, I think it's a non-starter.   Thank you for your surrender, UnSub.   ::)

My evidence is that you entertained the allegation.

But, more to the point, you want me to provide video evidence, or perhaps audio evidence that Indonesians have said that they would like to acquire Australia to become part of Indonesia? Hang on, I will go back in time, buy myself a dictaphone, and surreptitiously record the words of that particular Indonesian.

I guess you want to overlook the allegations that the money we Australians pay to Indonesians are also being treated like it is rent money for living on their land.

Riddle me this, Brian. If some thief was going to rob someone for their riches, do you think that they would go on the news and announce it? How do you prove something that is off the record?


Quote:

There is no evidence that the US wants Australia poor.  Indeed, I personally can't believe they do.  Poor people can't buy expensive US goods.  They want us at least moderately well off to afford all their wonderful toys and geegaws.   They don't want us to challenger their world supremacy, that's all.   ::)

The Americans treat Australians like we are a bunch of rednecks that surf, farm, wrestle crocodiles and work in mines. And that is all we are to them. We can still buy their stupid stuff. But they want us to keep our wages low so that they can buy our resources off us at lowered prices.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 5:13pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 12:09pm: There is no evidence, anywhere that Indonesia seriously considered invading Australia since the formation of Indonesia in 1945.   As you are unable to provide evidence for your assertion, except by innuendo, I think it's a non-starter.   Thank you for your surrender, UnSub.   ::) My evidence is that you entertained the allegation. But, more to the point, you want me to provide video evidence, or perhaps audio evidence that Indonesians have said that they would like to acquire Australia to become part of Indonesia?

Nope.  You live to much in the InterWebs.  I want ANY evidence.  It doesn't have to be online.  It just needs to be evidential in nature.  You do understand what evidence is, don't you, UnSub?


Quote:

[quote]There is no evidence that the US wants Australia poor.  Indeed, I personally can't believe they do.  Poor people can't buy expensive US goods.  They want us at least moderately well off to afford all their wonderful toys and geegaws.   They don't want us to challenge their world supremacy, that's all.   ::)

The Americans treat Australians like we are a bunch of rednecks that surf, farm, wrestle crocodiles and work in mines. And that is all we are to them. We can still buy their stupid stuff. But they want us to keep our wages low so that they can buy our resources off us at lowered prices. [/quote]

Wages has little to do with it.  What they want is for the exchange rate to be low - low Australian dollar means for us, greater exports to be sent overseas and cheaper for them.  A high Australian dollar means we lose our advantage - be it for primary exports or for movie making or for anything the Yanks want to buy.   It makes it expensive though, when we want to buy their stuff.   ::)

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 4:58pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 7:47am: Who's debating that, you said first world society. By your own admission, it wasn't by 1815. You can put together a first-world society within 27 years of inception.

Helps when you are sucking on the homeland's teats though.

Now, go to Alpha Centauri and see if it works as easily or as well.    ::)

The moment we make interstellar travel possible to get to another habitable planet within 6 months, we can make it happen.

Setting up a first-world society is easy if the travel time is only a week away. But, it becomes really difficult when the journey to the new land is 6 months away.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 5:19pm:

Nope.  You live to much in the InterWebs.  I want ANY evidence.  It doesn't have to be online.  It just needs to be evidential in nature.  You do understand what evidence is, don't you, UnSub?

Did I just post about a couple hours ago to say that it was verbal? You want me to upload my memories into a databank for your referral?

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 8:08pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 5:19pm: Nope.  You live to much in the InterWebs.  I want ANY evidence.  It doesn't have to be online.  It just needs to be evidential in nature.  You do understand what evidence is, don't you, UnSub? Did I just post about a couple hours ago to say that it was verbal? You want me to upload my memories into a databank for your referral?

I want a reference that I can check.  It is obvious you don't understand what evidence actually is, do you?   I don't want a verbal reference, I want a written reference - it can be a link - to where the evidence is, so I can check to see it's veracity.  It can be a book, a newspaper article, a journal article, what ever, as long as I can check it.  It is obvious you've never been to university, have you?    ::)

Evidence: Proof of something. Validation.

dictionary.com definition of "evidence": noun
that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof.
something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign:
His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever.
Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects.

You want me to provide you with evidence of something that happened 15 years ago, which was stated to me verbally?

Here is another example of why it is difficult for me to get through to Brian: Nine years ago, I watched the International Space Station orbit directly over Rockhampton. I do not recall the date. It was in May of 2010.

Would you also like me to provide you with evidence that I saw the International Space Station fly in space across the night sky, Brian?

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 8:25pm:

I want a reference that I can check.  It is obvious you don't understand what evidence actually is, do you?   I don't want a verbal reference, I want a written reference - it can be a link - to where the evidence is, so I can check to see it's veracity.  It can be a book, a newspaper article, a journal article, what ever, as long as I can check it.  It is obvious you've never been to university, have you?    ::)

You want an unpopular statement in international circles that would not be admittedly publicly to be brought to your attention via a medium for your reference? Would you also want an article on the sun being hot? Or rain being wet? I mean, if you don't experience it, how do you know what it is like?

How do you prove that an unrecorded quote actually took place? The person who said it was in his 60s. He is probably quite elderly now. Maybe dead. But you want to see a record of him saying something that normal people would not be so indiscreet about saying in public?

I have also heard Australians saying that they would like to take over Indonesia, if there were not many Indonesians living there, too. Perhaps you want me to find a quote in some journal article of that, too?

https://www.news.com.au/world/indonesians-express-aussie-hatred-with-hashtag-ganyangaustralia-which-means-crush-australia/news-story/b0a0c95a3d5559b6cc11f6a43b4ef1d0


Quote:

AUSTRALIANS generally like Indonesia and its people. But the feeling is apparently not mutual. In the face of the spying scandal and Prime Minister's Tony Abbott's reluctance to offer a full upfront apology to Jakarta, ordinary Indonesians are going online to express their anger.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 9:05pm:

Evidence: Proof of something. Validation. dictionary.com definition of "evidence": noun that which tends to prove or disprove something; ground for belief; proof. something that makes plain or clear; an indication or sign: His flushed look was visible evidence of his fever. Law. data presented to a court or jury in proof of the facts in issue and which may include the testimony of witnesses, records, documents, or objects. You want me to provide you with evidence of something that happened 15 years ago, which was stated to me verbally?

Really?  By whom?  Where?  Your reference is vague at best, UnSub.   ::) ::)

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 9:12pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 8:25pm: I want a reference that I can check.  It is obvious you don't understand what evidence actually is, do you?   I don't want a verbal reference, I want a written reference - it can be a link - to where the evidence is, so I can check to see it's veracity.  It can be a book, a newspaper article, a journal article, what ever, as long as I can check it.  It is obvious you've never been to university, have you?    ::) You want an unpopular statement in international circles that would not be admittedly publicly to be brought to your attention via a medium for your reference? Would you also want an article on the sun being hot? Or rain being wet? I mean, if you don't experience it, how do you know what it is like? How do you prove that an unrecorded quote actually took place? The person who said it was in his 60s. He is probably quite elderly now. Maybe dead. But you want to see a record of him saying something that normal people would not be so indiscreet about saying in public? I have also heard Australians saying that they would like to take over Indonesia, if there were not many Indonesians living there, too. Perhaps you want me to find a quote in some journal article of that, too?

UnSub, you can claim what you like but without evidence of it's veracity, it remains just you making a claim that I will dismiss ultimately as bullshit.

Now, one last time, do you have any evidence in the form of a reference or a link, to a claim that Indonesia was intent at some point on invading Australia?  YES/NO

If your answer is yes, then provide the reference.  Otherwise, stop bullshitting.   ::) ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 10:41pm:

If your answer is yes, then provide the reference.  Otherwise, stop bullshitting.   ::) ::)

You can't disprove something you did not see or hear. It is a valid claim. And if a brief news article about Indonesians wanting to "crush Australia" is not a start, then you are not going to be swayed by something more substantial.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12^th, 2019 at 4:58pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 7:47am: Who's debating that, you said first world society. By your own admission, it wasn't by 1815. You can put together a first-world society within 27 years of inception.

Indeed, when you're getting heaps of help, funding and a military paid for by the home land.  And by 1815 Australia still wasn't first world.

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 9:35am:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 4:58pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 7:47am: Who's debating that, you said first world society. By your own admission, it wasn't by 1815. You can put together a first-world society within 27 years of inception. Indeed, when you're getting heaps of help, funding and a military paid for by the home land.  And by 1815 Australia still wasn't first world.

If not starving and being able to produce a profitable society is not an example of a first-world society, I don't know what society in the world would be an example.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 10:23am:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 9:35am: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 4:58pm: Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 7:47am: Who's debating that, you said first world society. By your own admission, it wasn't by 1815. You can put together a first-world society within 27 years of inception. Indeed, when you're getting heaps of help, funding and a military paid for by the home land.  And by 1815 Australia still wasn't first world. If not starving and being able to produce a profitable society is not an example of a first-world society, I don't know what society in the world would be an example.

Your definition of first world therefore is different then mine.

And different from most


The concept of First World originated during the Cold War and included countries that were generally aligned with NATO and opposed to the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the definition has instead largely shifted to any country with little political risk and a well functioning democracy, rule of law, capitalist economy, economic stability, and high standard of living. Various ways in which modern First World countries are often determined include GDP, GNP, literacy rates, life expectancy, and the Human Development Index.[1] In common usage, as per Merriam-Webster, "first world" now typically refers to "the highly developed industrialized nations often considered the westernized countries of the world".[2]

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 9:33am:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 10:41pm: If your answer is yes, then provide the reference.  Otherwise, stop bullshitting.   ::) ::) You can't disprove something you did not see or hear. It is a valid claim. And if a brief news article about Indonesians wanting to "crush Australia" is not a start, then you are not going to be swayed by something more substantial.

No valid reference?  Equals bullshit as far as I and any other critical reader is concered, UnSub.  Run along there.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 2:34pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 9:33am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 10:41pm: If your answer is yes, then provide the reference.  Otherwise, stop bullshitting.   ::) ::) You can't disprove something you did not see or hear. It is a valid claim. And if a brief news article about Indonesians wanting to "crush Australia" is not a start, then you are not going to be swayed by something more substantial. No valid reference?  Equals bullshit as far as I and any other critical reader is concered, UnSub.  Run along there.   ::)

*mocking Brian* I want to see evidence that this allegation is not bullshit. Make sure you cite a journal article, news article, website article, etc.

Apparently, I am one up on you, Brian.

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 2:34pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 9:33am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 10:41pm: If your answer is yes, then provide the reference.  Otherwise, stop bullshitting.   ::) ::) You can't disprove something you did not see or hear. It is a valid claim. And if a brief news article about Indonesians wanting to "crush Australia" is not a start, then you are not going to be swayed by something more substantial. No valid reference?  Equals bullshit as far as I and any other critical reader is concered, UnSub.  Run along there.   ::)

Hehehe, says the clown who thinks his anecdotes count as a reference.  ::)

What’s that about a critical reader...

Secret Wars wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 4:43pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 2:34pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 9:33am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 10:41pm: If your answer is yes, then provide the reference.  Otherwise, stop bullshitting.   ::) ::) You can't disprove something you did not see or hear. It is a valid claim. And if a brief news article about Indonesians wanting to "crush Australia" is not a start, then you are not going to be swayed by something more substantial. No valid reference?  Equals bullshit as far as I and any other critical reader is concered, UnSub.  Run along there.   ::) Hehehe, says the clown who thinks his anecdotes count as a reference.  ::) What’s that about a critical reader...

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/128170/2467911-yawn_20smiley.jpg

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 4:27pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 2:34pm: UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 9:33am: Brian Ross wrote on Sep 12th, 2019 at 10:41pm: If your answer is yes, then provide the reference.  Otherwise, stop bullshitting.   ::) ::) You can't disprove something you did not see or hear. It is a valid claim. And if a brief news article about Indonesians wanting to "crush Australia" is not a start, then you are not going to be swayed by something more substantial. No valid reference?  Equals bullshit as far as I and any other critical reader is concered, UnSub.  Run along there.   ::) *mocking Brian* I want to see evidence that this allegation is not bullshit. Make sure you cite a journal article, news article, website article, etc. Apparently, I am one up on you, Brian.

In what way?  Being unable to answer a question about your reference?  Indeed, I'm starting wonder what you're talking about UnSub?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 5:04pm:

I'm starting wonder what you're talking about   ::)

Look who's talking!! We have been wondering about you in that regard ever since you started here , Bwian.


"Australia's non-role in liberating East Timor"??

You are safely and securely remain OUTA your mind on any topic you start or contribute to, Bwian the Cockwomble. Your role is to come up with the stupid angle everyone else thinks too outlandish - let's wait for Bwian, he'll come up the stupids none of us could imagine.  And sure enough, here you are, once again, gorged full to bursting with the stupids, leaking, reeking, spouting out of you, soiling every thread you splatter onto.

Frank wrote on Sep 13^th, 2019 at 7:20pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 5:04pm: I'm starting wonder what you're talking about   ::) Look who's talking!! We have been wondering about you in that regard ever since you started here , Bwian. "Australia's non-role in liberating East Timor"?? You are safely and securely remain OUTA your mind on any topic you start or contribute to, Bwian the Cockwomble. Your role is to come up with the stupid angle everyone else thinks too outlandish - let's wait for Bwian, he'll come up the stupids none of us could imagine.  And sure enough, here you are, once again, gorged full to bursting with the stupids, leaking, reeking, spouting out of you, soiling every thread you splatter onto.

Oh, dearie, dearie, me.  Another visit to your favourite mud pit, it seems, Soren. Tsk, tsk.   ::)

https://media.tenor.com/images/4d2c1172f74dd9578b8caa467d0090a5/tenor.gif

Redacting statements is the reason why people like you, Brian, think that the onus is on others to prove what they saw and heard. The problem for you, Brian, is that you will go on blissfully unaware about the validity of someone's statement. You think there needs to be hard proof for someone's claims to be right. Much like the lawyers who used the Rodney King beating video footage as inadmissible due to the blurriness. Redacting someone's statements, even symbolically, is the basis of your defence. "Tree falling in the woods" logic -- Did not see it. Did not hear it. Did not happen.

UnSubRocky wrote on Sep 14^th, 2019 at 12:16am:

Redacting statements is the reason why people like you, Brian, think that the onus is on others to prove what they saw and heard. The problem for you, Brian, is that you will go on blissfully unaware about the validity of someone's statement. You think there needs to be hard proof for someone's claims to be right. Much like the lawyers who used the Rodney King beating video footage as inadmissible due to the blurriness. Redacting someone's statements, even symbolically, is the basis of your defence. "Tree falling in the woods" logic -- Did not see it. Did not hear it. Did not happen.

And this has to do with Australian-East Timorese relations, how, UnSub?  It has what to do with Australian-Indonesian relations?  It's relevance to Australian Defence policies is?  Equipment?  Personnel?  Please explain...  as certain red headed politician likes to ask when asked a difficult question... ::)