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Member Run Boards >> Philosophy >> If that proposition by Plato is correct..... http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1558912152 Message started by Yadda on May 27th, 2019 at 9:09am |
Title: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Yadda on May 27th, 2019 at 9:09am "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato (427-347 BC) If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Wouldn't we all enjoy greater personal freedoms and safety [for the majority], if collectively, we determined [and agreed] to enable laws, to remove [from a society of men] those persons who negligently or intentionally cause harm to others ? Under such a regime [of actively seeking to permanently remove the 'wolves' from any society], wouldn't such a society of men be more likely to achieve a peaceful, prosperous, and harmonious political state, for that society of men ? e.g. Permanently remove murderers from society. Permanently remove persistent thieves. Permanently remove those who [without cause] persistently assault and cause harm to others. PROPOSITION; Where men and women come together to live in a society, for the sake of their mutual benefit [and safety], wouldn't a primary objective for that collective society of men be; 1/ To keep the meadow safe, for the sheep. 2/ To ban the wolves [from having access to the meadow]. ? 'the meadow' = = any society of men 'the sheep' = = peaceful, productive people/citizens. 'wolves' = = 'predators' PROPOSITION; There can be no peace and there can be no safety [for any group of sheep], if the sheep are willing to permit wolves to enter their meadow, and predate upon the sheep [....as we know all wolves are want to do]. ? |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on May 27th, 2019 at 6:11pm
To 'serve' in Heaven
or 'Reign' in Hell. Both are the same for he who reigns is in heaven and those that serve are also in hell. :D |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Yadda on May 27th, 2019 at 7:16pm Where justice reigns, 'tis freedom to obey. - James Montgomery |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on May 27th, 2019 at 11:49pm
Heaven and Hell are one and the same.
God is Satan is God is Satan. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The Reboot on May 28th, 2019 at 12:52pm Yadda wrote on May 27th, 2019 at 9:09am:
The problem with this, in my experience, is that the 'sheep' aren't the best judge of character. How long before the 'sheep herder' becomes a 'wolf' for trying to keep his meadow safe from predators? |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by greggerypeccary on May 28th, 2019 at 1:12pm The Reboot wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 12:52pm:
Nailed it. I was thinking of a way to say that, and you expressed it perfectly. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on May 28th, 2019 at 1:49pm
Watch out Reboot.
He's onto you. ;) |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The Reboot on May 29th, 2019 at 11:08am Jasin wrote on May 28th, 2019 at 1:49pm:
According to the lemon party here, I wouldn't be his type? :D |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Super Nova on May 29th, 2019 at 4:07pm
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
- Plato (427-347 BC) Even good people need laws, they are the foundation of a society. Also there are bad law made by the do gooders who will with good intention tell everyone how to live their lives. One could break the law and later be a valuable member of a society. Society needs those people who will disrupt to allow a society to evolve. Are they bad, not always. If the law says, thou shall not kill in any circumstances and someone bad threatens your family... I would break the law. There are countries with law to outlawing unmarried sex, being gay, wife not obeying a mans command, rape is Ok if it is your wife ...etc. Does breaking these laws make you bad. We need wolfs and the sheep need to toughen up. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The Reboot on May 29th, 2019 at 4:16pm Super Nova wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
Brilliant. I don't define good and bad according to the standards that governments and society sets. In fact, I find the Australian "justice" system to be a complete farce that is by proxy evil due to its tendency to keep dumping pieces of shite paedos on our streets to reoffend. "They" try to make out like they are "taking the high road", by giving these shitecunts a "second chance" and treating them like victims. Like many things, I suppose it's about perspective. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The_Barnacle on May 29th, 2019 at 4:19pm Quote:
The problem is that dividing the world into "Good" and "Bad" people is overly simplistic and isn't realist. It is a myth that the gun lobby like to perpetuate that "good" people need guns as protection from "bad" people As with most things in life it is more of a spectrum. With the majority of people in the middle. They are "good" in the right circumstances but "bad" in the wrong circumstances. And that is why we still need laws |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Super Nova on May 29th, 2019 at 4:38pm The Reboot wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 4:16pm:
If these bad people cannot be reformed like "shite paedos" then they should be removed from society and I don't agree they should be released. Some deserve the death penalty IMO but that is a different debate. We need wolf like people to keep the bad wolfs in check. I think of it like this analogy. Sheep are protected by Good wolfs while surrounded by bad wolfs. Somedays the bad wolfs make a kill. But most of the sheep get to blissfully live their mundane existence unaware that it is the good wolfs that keep them safe. Maybe more like Bristle Hound (I think he was his name) rather than Good Wolfs. Dog are from wolfs anyway. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on May 29th, 2019 at 7:16pm
There are Bad, Evil, Good & Pure people.
A Bad person learns from making a mistake for he/she has not the 'instruction' book of rules to guide them to success which the Good person follows. But a Bad person is someone who isn't afraid to make a mistake in the pursuit of life and thus learns to cut his/her own path in life. While the Good person follows the path chosen for them and if it ends, they just wait there - until given further instruction, unable to know how to make their own path. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Evil does something bad, but does it again and again - fully aware of what he/she is doing, is wrong, but doesn't care. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on May 29th, 2019 at 7:18pm The Reboot wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 11:08am:
*drinks a glass of lemonade and winks "I know what you mean" ;) :D |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Super Nova on May 29th, 2019 at 7:22pm Jasin wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 7:16pm:
Interesting addition of Evil vs Bad. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The Reboot on May 30th, 2019 at 11:24am Jasin wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 7:16pm:
I'm not sure if there is such thing as a "pure" person. Sure, there's "good" people with good intentions. But even the bible says the the entire human race was a sin. We are sinners the moment our father's sperm meets our mother's eggs. Super Nova wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 4:38pm:
I absolutely agree. "Good" people with the intentions of being pure don't have the spine to defend the flock of sheep in the way that a wolf would. They live under a fallacy that they will receive more moral brownie points if they 'turn the other cheek'. When in reality they are simply a doormat to be trodden on and the brownie points are obsolete. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on May 30th, 2019 at 2:16pm Super Nova wrote on May 29th, 2019 at 7:22pm:
Good example is the movie PITCH BLACK with Riddick being the 'convict' who fights 'Evil' from both sides. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on May 30th, 2019 at 2:18pm The Reboot wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 11:24am:
No. Only the human race within the realm of Religion was of 'sin'. For the Aboriginals were 'pure' - untouched by Sin (Religion), until 1788 so to speak. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by PZ547 on May 30th, 2019 at 7:25pm
Wouldn't we all enjoy greater personal freedoms and safety [for the majority], if collectively, we determined [and agreed] to enable laws, to remove [from a society of men] those persons who negligently or intentionally cause harm to others ?
Yes |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by John Smith on May 30th, 2019 at 7:32pm
there hasn't been a society that has survived without rules and laws. Plato was stoned when he came up with that claim.
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Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The Reboot on May 30th, 2019 at 8:49pm Jasin wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
See, doesn't that right there just prove that white = evil? The Nazi was created to be our mascot - even if we never asked for it. ;) |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Yadda on Jun 1st, 2019 at 11:04pm Jasin wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
You are suggesting [imo] that creatures without 'the realm of Religion', cannot know what sin is. I do not agree. Chimpanzees engage in [expansionist] territorial wars. I would argue [i can't readily prove it], that even though they are chimpanzees ['wild animals'], they know that such behaviour [warfare with, and killing other chimpanzees] is immoral [wrong]. How so ? I would argue [though i can't readily prove it], that chimpanzees are creatures with a conscience. HANG ON!..... Maybe i can ------ > http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1556277928/0#0 Jasin wrote on May 30th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
Rubbish. Aboriginal people [just like the Europeans who came later and invaded this 'southern land'], knew about warfare, conquest, murder, and rape. Aboriginal people know [and knew] the difference between right and wrong ! They knew what 'sin' was. And all Aboriginal people were [and are] endowed with a conscience, just as are all of the white fellas who came later. BUT HOW DID THEY KNOW ?! [and how do we know the difference between right and wrong, and between what is good, and what is evil ?!] Because every creature and every human being, knows how they would prefer to be treated, themselves. Don't they ? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1556277928/0#0 |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Captain Nemo on Jun 2nd, 2019 at 10:38am |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 1:00pm
Listen Yadda.
Don't try to throw a curve ball with an extreme use of Chimpanzee's. ::) Why not try Newts then? ::) No. In the 'Human' world. The concept and confinement of 'Sin' as a tool of control over others is a Middle-Eastern innovation that has slowly moved over the world in x4 different styles: Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Christianity and Mohommedism. Pre 1788 Aboriginal Australia was an existence of 'Harmony' with no 'wars' or 'suicide' and 'Law' was minor facet that was acted on with punishment in rare occurrences. Mostly, everyone got on well and Clans worked together for the greater good. In fact, they had the best example of a 'Democracy' too - that only Europeans and other Regions could only dream of having in their rotten existences of 'suffering' for Sin. Pre-1788 Australia was a 'Pure' existence where there was no 'Few' who had domination of the 'many' like what Religion, Military, Politics, etc had in other regions at the time. Even South America used 'drugs' to do its dirty work over the masses. Tolkien himself would have agreed that the Pre-1788 Aboriginal existence would have been akin to the 'Elvish' existence in his novel works: One with the Land (Gaea). They lived in the 'Garden' from which the Jews Adam & Eve fell from. "...and to eat from the Tree of 'Life' and be Gods like 'us'" ;) "...and live 'forever'" Yadda. You only see the world with but a 1/4 lens via your Religion (Christianity). If you saw it through the lenses of Zoroastrianism, Judaism & Mohommedism as well - you might see the 'full view'. But even then, Religion is just 1/16th of what exists in this World as a whole. Even Western 'Political' is but 1/16th as well. ;) Btw - the New Worlds of N.America the Avian, South America the Serpent and Sahul the Fish will one day 'liberate' the Middle-East to its 'true' Religion beyond the Judaism for Asia, Christianity for Europe and Mohommedism for Africa (The Old Worlds). Trust me. I've met a 'Sin of Ur' (Sinner) or two in my time and they've been waiting a very long time indeed. ;) |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by PZ547 on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 1:29pm
Gee to appear to talk crap sometimes, JaSin ;)
Aborigines maintained territory through tribal warfare as you cannot fail to be aware they were brutal in fact. Little girls -- and I mean very young girls -- were given to old men -- and I mean much older men --- as 'brides/wives'. In fact there's a famous photograph around, which was publicised not too long ago, which showed a 40-ish aboriginal male with his litttle toddler bride on his shoulders. She was too little and too young to walk likewise, little boys were given to haggard old lubras as 'husbands' as time went on, the old spouses died or were killed, after which their by now much older child spouses were given little children as sex-object spouses. And that's the cycle, repeat endlessly a priest in the Norther Territory attempted to save a bunch of little children from such a fate early last century from memory. It was something of a landmark case Birth control consisted of dropping a newborn from the loins and leaving it where it lay for the dingos. The Aborigine had by then regressed so far that they no longer had the acumen to connect sex with pregnancy Aboriginal women/girls/boys were flogged and mistreated to within an inch of their lives. Females were valued less than a dingo, unless of course, she absconded, at which point she was regarded as property and wars, retribution and punishment for the female in question if she was unfortunate enough to be recaptured by her tribe's menfolk It was not an idyllic race by any means -- unless of course you subscribe to the ridiculously censored crap doing the rounds of late and while we're at it, how do you imagine the Aboriginal pygmy that I told you about a few months ago disappeared/were rendered extinct as a separate group? I'm pretty sure that in the material I linked then, it was stated they were terrified of the full size Abos who hunted them down as to 'sin' and it being imposed by religion, it's my belief that most creatures, in their own way, demonstrate empathy sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissists --- they lack empathy which is why they are as they are. In fact, that trio enjoys the suffering of others, be they human, animal or other empathy causes a creature/human/other to understand the emotions experienced or suffered by others if a human does something to cause suffering to another (animal or human) that human understands that suffering and regrets inflicting such a painful emotion on something else. That regret usually results in the human seeking to avoid inflicting similar suffering on anything else you see it with children. They might poke the cat with a stick and when they see the pain or hurt feelings suffered by the cat, you will often notice pain in the child's own eyes. It regrets what it did. That's how it learns not to hurt others A wish to not hurt others (humans, animals) could be described as an awareness, an understanding, of 'sin' little kids don't know about sin or what sin is supposed to be. But they possess empathy and that's what leads them to discriminate between, roughly speaking, 'right and wrong' Anyone who is not a narcissist or psychopath or sociopath has a fair understanding of right and wrong -- even those who've had no religious education or eschew religion altogether religion is merely an attempt to formalise society's beliefs & understanding as to right and wrong, punishment, etc. All the garb, the control mechanisms etc. could be scrapped with no real loss other than to those who profit and benefit from the show-biz elements the Zoroastrians' primary belief was 'Right thoughts, right actions, right speech'. Those simple instructions alone would be sufficient to promote a decent life, decent behaviour in anyone not a mental case, a narcissist, a sociopath or psychopath |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 7:02pm
No PZ547.
I will hold little respect for any 'white-washed' accounts of Aboriginal peoples. I give the majority of my perception of them, from their own accounts and passing down of knowledge. Of the 'white' interpretation - I do hold to account all the documented accounts and sketches of Explorers and Settlers who at first admired, but then 'denied' in the name of Colonisation and its tool of 'propaganda' no different than what Communism and Dictators do. They were not Hunter's and Gatherers, they were Farmers. They were not Military (although the Portuguese trained a Clan up in NT, that sized up successfully against a Scottish led, Indian regiment) and if you look at their 'artifacts' in Museums - most of them were 'tools', not weapons. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by Yadda on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 7:29pm Jasin wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 1:00pm:
But in what alternative universe ? Is this what is offered as argument in debate on a public forum, in 2019 !!? JaSin, Please tell me, that you are not a product of the Australian education system. ??? . Aaaah, i know what it is! JaSin, You need to report back to your coders, that more adjustments are required. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1554900171/16#16 |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 9:24pm Yadda wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 7:29pm:
Oh no Yadda. Sorry to be a dissapointment to you. But I 'failed' to be a Redneck when schooled in Mt Druitt and 'failed' to be a Gay when schooled in St Marys. Hell, I think I even did my Biology exam in 'morse code'. Makes you wonder then, where I 'succeed' then if something lost, is something gained. You're 'Christianity' as a whole, is nothing more than just one 'page', along with the others - in a much larger book of life. For to the Religious, the Tree of Knowledge is what is already known (the past) and the Tree of Life is what there is to know (the future). And you my dear Yadda eat only from the... past. ;) |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 9:27pm
Team Philosophy
The Realist is present in the moment, while the Idealist dreams of a better world. But the Idealist always thinks ahead, while the Realist settles for... |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by PZ547 on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 11:05pm Jasin wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 7:02pm:
Jasin, I don't want to offend you. I like you. And your opinions and beliefs are as valid as those of anyone else in this or any other discussion you knew there'd be a 'but' though Quote:
I entered the search term, 'Australian Aboriginal Warfare' a few seconds ago into Bing. This was, I think, the third result down. Having a quick scan, there seem to be several similar on the first page Quote:
You might find this article of interest:LINK Quote:
In 1825 French explorer Louis-Antoine de Bougainville wrote “that young girls are brutally kidnapped from their families, violently dragged to isolated spots and are ravished after being subjected to a good deal of cruelty.”[22] George Robinson in Tasmania said in the 1830s that men courted their women by stabbing them with sharp sticks and cutting them with knives prior to rape[/quote] |
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Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 11:25pm
Yes. I've read all that stuff long ago. It's all part of the propaganda to down-grade the Aboriginal culture as 'savages'.
I prefer the new truth that is emerging. Remember, Aboriginals hardly had weapons other than for minimal reasons beyond just taking down Roos, etc. It was in the best interests of Christianised Colonisation to down-grade any and every other 'non-christian' existence as 'savage' and the Aboriginals definitely didn't burn their women at the stake for being 'witches' either. Ask yourself the 'why' would the women be 'clubbed' over the head beyond 'rape'? If it was such a 'cultural occurrence' all over the continent - then I'm sure the population would crash from lack of healthy and able females able to reproduce due to head trauma. I really don't think a peoples that were quite sustainable in their need for food and water, were so desperate in their actions to breed. If the Aboriginals 'failed' here, it wasn't due to their Farming techniques, that's for sure. But hey, white farmers are so crap - more and more 'black' Indians are buying up what the Whitey can't cope with: Farms. I notice there is a surge towards Holistic Farming (from Zimbabwe) and other 'alternative' (Black) Farming styles because they are succeeding, where Western styles are failing. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by PZ547 on Jun 4th, 2019 at 12:09am
A first-hand, eye witness account of an Aboriginal tribal battle written in 1927LINK
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Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by PZ547 on Jun 4th, 2019 at 12:16am Jasin wrote on Jun 3rd, 2019 at 11:25pm:
Some attractive online sites advertising Aboriginal weapons of war and the stats past and current of Aboriginal women beaten like dogs have been provided it's actually worse where Aborigines 'live the traditional lifestyle' -- because they do just that, 'cruelling' their kids to make them aggressive and beating and killing the women and girls ... and each other, not to mention the gang attacks on anyone stupid enough to give more than one of them a lift but --- be nice if your dream-version becomes reality Oh, yeah --- Zimbabwe's been such a success story since the white farmers were murdered and their farms stolen. Such a success that they've been begging white farmers to return, now the blacks have turned the place into a sheet hole I don't know what you're smoking Jasin, but anyway ... |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The Reboot on Jun 4th, 2019 at 11:25am
A lot of ancient tribes worldwide used to participate in acts that us, as a "civilized" society would consider barbaric and disgusting.
Hell, in some places i.e New Guinea some tribes still practice cannibalism. They did not possess the knowledge of "morality" and were as such acting in their natural environment. They were "born free of sin" having no authoritative text telling them otherwise. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on Jun 4th, 2019 at 12:36pm
Yes well, they don't make movies like Blue Lagoon anymore. *sigh :(
I guess in the middle-east they needed a concept of 'authority' over them in how to morally behave, because it was also the most war ravaged part of the World. And no, it was originally the 'Whites' who killed Ndebele & Shona and stole their lands via Rhodes. You reap what you sow. And also, although Mugabe provided for only those who were on his side, the British supporters starved 'unsupported' by Britain who seiged the nation with sanctions. |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by The Reboot on Jun 4th, 2019 at 4:39pm Jasin wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 12:36pm:
Yeah, it's really made a difference :D |
Title: Re: If that proposition by Plato is correct..... Post by .JaSin. on Jun 5th, 2019 at 2:32am The Reboot wrote on Jun 4th, 2019 at 4:39pm:
I like that 'star-trekkin' song: "We come in Peace (Religion) / Shoot to kill (Military)" ...in South America, its the reverse. ;) |
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