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General Discussion >> General Board >> We dont need vitamin supplements http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1533354693 Message started by The_Barnacle on Aug 4th, 2018 at 1:51pm |
Title: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 4th, 2018 at 1:51pm
Every day, consumers are bombarded with warnings about their vitamin levels.
But the surprising truth, experts say, is it's very difficult to not get enough vitamins from your diet. Vitamins make up just 13 of the thousands of chemicals and compounds in food. For good health, the message from experts is simple: stop worrying about them. “People needn’t worry about vitamins in general,” says Professor Amanda Lee, who chaired the group of experts who wrote Australia’s dietary guidelines and is now based at the Australian Prevention Partnership Centre. Half a glass of orange juice contains all the vitamin C you need. Eat two eggs for breakfast and a single carrot for dinner and you’ve just knocked over A and B12 as well. “You really don’t need to eat much,” says Dr Yasmine Probst, a nutritionist at the University of Wollongong. What about Vitamin D, which only comes from sunlight? In fact, our bodies can store it for up to six months, meaning we usually have plenty all through the winter. That said, studies do suggest almost a quarter of Australians may have levels of vitamin D below recommended guidelines. But, says Professor Lee, it’s possible recommended levels are way too high – and it’s not clear 'deficiency' is harmful. Dr Probst put together a plate of food containing everything you’d need to get 100 per cent of every vitamin for investigative documentary Vitamania, which premieres this week at National Science Week. There wasn’t much on the plate. A handful of pecans, a tub of yoghurt, half an apple, a single carrot, a small portion of brown rice, a small amount of spinach, a serve of fresh salmon and a mango. Eight items containing all the vitamins you need for an entire day. https://www.theage.com.au/national/stop-worrying-about-vitamins-you-can-get-all-you-need-really-easily-20180802-p4zv5z.html Of course the billion dollar vitamin supplements industry would have you believe differently |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Ye Grappler on Aug 4th, 2018 at 2:35pm
Beer - Breakfast of Champions! Full of good things...
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Gordon on Aug 4th, 2018 at 4:01pm
But berocca gives your fluro pee pee.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The Mechanic on Aug 4th, 2018 at 4:11pm
you would only need vitamins if you have a bad diet...
and if thats you and you feel you need to start paying for vitamins... then wake the **** up and change your diet.. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1530671802/30 |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Yadda on Aug 4th, 2018 at 6:47pm We don't need vitamin supplements. The industry is an expensive con, imo. TO MAINTAIN GOOD HEALTH, AND A STRONG IMMUNE SYSTEM; Eat less [and better foods], if you are overweight. Try and avoid frozen foods and foods which are hermetically sealed in a can. Eat real nuts, real veggies, real fruits. Try and avoid ALL processed foods [including ALL processed meats]. Yadda asks.... Q. What is 'a flue vaccine' ? 8-) what is the cause of congestion in the body what is the cause of phlegm in the body what is the cause of mucus in the body If you search for it, you may find the truth. Yadda said..... http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1342132571/97#97 Quote:
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened. - Winston Churchill |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The Mechanic on Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:35pm
whats wrong with Frozen Vegetables?
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:47pm
Some people actually do need supplements.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Yadda on Aug 4th, 2018 at 9:04pm President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:35pm:
Frozen Vegetables.... Not fresh, not real, processed. We don't and can't know, how frozen vegetables have been handled, by who, and in what circumstances they have been processed. Google; imported frozen vegetables, listeria frozen vegetables recalled from supermarkets |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:00am Grendel wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:47pm:
HooRAY ! SOMEONE'S given this a bit of thought If you have a medical history as long as mine - you've probably had your fair share of dealing with "dieticians" Don't get me WRONG Lovely girls (they'll all women, for some reason) for the most part - but they're the people responsible for the "quality" of hospital food menus Dieticians are NOT scientists, endocrinologists, medical specialists, general practitioners - or nurses It might sound a bit harsh, but I see most "dieticians" as holding corn-flake packet qualifications They are full of text-book responses - and "one-size-fits-all" solutions I'm now confident - through experience - I can read my own body and know its needs better than any "qualified dietician" can But I digress - and back to Grendal's point I am short of a liver enzyme that stops me from storing vitamins B1 and B12 I was once injected with what should have been 30 years supply of B12 I became deficient, on a pathology test, after three weeks My medical team have PRESCRIBED a daily "mega-dose" of vitamins B1 and B12 To the other extreme - I carry a dangerous overload of vitamin B6 (inability to metabolise) I cannot touch a multi-vitamin - or any B group mixture I even have to avoid B6 rich foods, such as spinach Australian's have obeyed all those warnings on exposure to the sun Like myself, around half of Australians are D3 deficient https://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/vitamin-d-deficiency#1 I am ALSO on twice daily PRESCRIBED doses of D3 So it's the best specialist medical advice, I follow Above "dieticians" and internet "wellness bloggers" |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:27am buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:00am:
That's different, you've got a medical condition Buzz. This article is aimed at your average pill popper who believes the marketing hype that additional vitamins will give them "next level" nutrition. It is a billion dollar industry which is largely unregulated. Tests on commercially available supplements have revealed wildly varying doses of the active ingredients. This can actually do you harm. The necessary vitamins are easy to obtain in food (as the op confirms). Supplementing these will not improve your health. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:49am
The topic says we don't need vitamin supplements.
But some of us do. If you are a shift worker and do rotating shifts 24x7 it is very likely you are vitamin D deficient. Especially if you've done it for a long time, 12 hour shifts may mean you never see the Sun for any length of time. Water soluble vitamins cannot be stored in the body and we "pee" them away. These need constant replenishment. There is no guarantee that anyone eats a balanced enough diet to ensure all required vitamins are supplied to the body in the required quantities. Supplementation helps this to be achieved. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 5th, 2018 at 12:03pm Grendel wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:49am:
Maybe you should read the opening post again. It is in fact VERY EASY to get all the vitamins you need from food. You can even get the vitamin D you need from fish, dairy, beef and egg yolks, or in summer, from 10 minutes in the sun. If you buy supplements you are peeing money down the toilet and helping Swisse and Blackmores make their multi million dollar profits |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 5th, 2018 at 12:18pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 12:03pm:
... from a "dietician" and internet blogger - keen to lift their profile Not from a highly qualified medical researcher |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 5th, 2018 at 12:23pm Grendel wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:49am:
… and THERE is a good example of a flawed "one size fits all" approach |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 5th, 2018 at 12:41pm Gordon wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 4:00pm:
... the creation of "dieticians" - no doubt |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 5th, 2018 at 1:18pm Grendel wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:49am:
We don't need vitamin supplements if we eat a healthy, balanced diet. It's that simple. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:31pm
Run away TROLL and stop crossing out real facts people write moron.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:32pm Grendel wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:47pm:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:32pm Grendel wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:49am:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:35pm Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 2:35pm:
Seems like the only way to cure a hangover quickly is drink more alcohol. Then you sober up over the day. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:36pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 12:03pm:
Oh and BTW I think you will find you need to eat an inordinate amount of some foodstuffs to even get your daily allowance of some vitamins. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Agnes on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:38pm Grendel wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:32pm:
Binky is right- some of us need vitamins- we don't store vit C and magnesium etc- there are quite a few very important vits we need that we don't store and we cant always get the complete dietary requirements through diet for all kinds of reasons- busy lifestyle etc |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:56pm Grendel wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 7:47pm:
I had to take spirulina tablets nearly every day. I then cut back my dosage of tablets when I got better to about a couple every work day (once every 4 days). The problem is that I went somewhat constipated from the dehydrating nature of the tablets. But that was quickly remedied by mixing my diluted fruit juice with chia seeds. So, I had a double dose of health combining for a good detox. Some guy at a nutrition shop told me not to take multivitamin tablets. Said that multivitamin tablets are so packet tightly inside capsules that you are more likely to excrete most of the capsule before you are likely to get any benefit from them. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bobby on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:58pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 1:51pm:
That's crap. I had a blood test many years ago. It found that my vitamin D level was only 10% of what it should be. I was told to take one vitamin D tablet every day - & I have ever since. On my last blood test - my Vitamin D level was normal. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 5th, 2018 at 4:12pm
You can live in a region that gets 300 cloud-free days a year, work during the day, and not get out in the sun very much. I have such an intolerance to getting sunburnt that I only go out to mow the lawn in the late hours before sunset. I might start mowing the lawn at 4pm. Start with the backyard and then make my way around 15 minutes later to the front. By then, the sun is at such a low angle that I don't stand much chance of getting sunburned at that time of day. Other than that, I would stay mainly indoors. I used to work lunch times as a delivery driver back in my late teens/early 20s. Driving around with 2L of frozen water was never enough. I would end the day exhausted and dehydrated. You would not see me do anything during the night.
I take vitamin D tablets every year (one container a year). Right now, I take K2D3 tablets. The vitamin K2, allegedly, unclogs the arteries and redeposits the calcium to where it is needed. The vitamin D3 does the muscle building and whatever else. Supposedly, I am reaping the benefits of this $20 bottle. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Unforgiven on Aug 5th, 2018 at 4:19pm
My diagnosis Bobby:
1. People have been keeping you in dark places and overdosing you with BS; and 2. Your cranium thickness increases are burning up too much of your vitamin D. Get out in the light for 20-25 minutes a day while your right-wing extremist owners are pissed out of their tiny minds. Quote:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 5th, 2018 at 4:37pm Bobby. wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:58pm:
Normal according to whom? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 5th, 2018 at 4:39pm Grendel wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:31pm: We don't need vitamin supplements if we eat a healthy, balanced diet. It's that simple. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 6th, 2018 at 2:44am
Had my first healthy meal in about 2 days. I think it was Friday night when I last ate well. Saturday night was very much McDonalds and colas. This afternoon, I had a sandwich, and apple, and water. That was okay. But I needed to have some vegetables with turmeric, ginger, and onion flakes boiled in.
We definitely don't need vitamins if we have a good diet. I get criticised for the supplements and vitamins that I have now. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 6th, 2018 at 6:19am greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 1:18pm:
If it were that "simple" , greggerypeccary - to access a "healthy, balanced diet" - we wouldn't be looking down the barrel of these figures % Overweight/obese by state/territory South Australia 65.8% Western Australia 60.3% Queensland 63.6% Tasmania 67.5% Australian Capital Territory 63.5% Northern Territory 64.3% New South Wales 63.2% Victoria 63.3% https://www.heartfoundation.org.au/about-us/what-we-do/heart-disease-in-australia/overweight-and-obesity-statistics |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Gnads on Aug 6th, 2018 at 8:08am buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 11:00am:
People without obvious health problems/medically treated conditions requiring it ...DO NOT NEED VITAMIN SUPPLEMENTS. My GP told me years ago that we lead lives of "excess" not deficiency. That all vitamins do is change the colour & smell of your urine & cost your a fortune. You get all you need from a reasonable diet. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:36am
obviously from what's been written here the topic title is incorrect and what I wrote is.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:39am buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 6:19am:
It is that simple. People just don't want to do it, that's all. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:42am greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 4:39pm:
Simple YES, well that would be YOU... Run away TROLL and stop crossing out real facts people write moron. No one said all people need supplements you dope. :D :D :D |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:45am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:42am:
We don't need vitamin supplements if we eat a healthy, balanced diet. It's that simple. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:47am
FROM THE OP...
Quote:
Oh dear even Professor Lee agrees with me. People needn’t worry about vitamins in general, but some people do need them. D and Magnesium are commonly in shortage due to diet and lifestyle. Some women can especially be short on D, Iron and Calcium. ::) ::) ::) Don't believe me? https://www.healthline.com/health/vitamin-deficiency-in-women#vitamin-b |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:49am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:47am:
We don't need vitamin supplements if we eat a healthy, balanced diet and live a healthy lifestyle. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:51am
Wassup Troll? ignorant deaf and blind?
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:53am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:51am: We don't need vitamin supplements if we eat a healthy, balanced diet and live a healthy lifestyle. If you're low on a particular vitamin, adjust your diet and lifestyle. It's pretty simple. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:48am
magnesium and calcium are not vitamins. And yes, some people do need D supplements. Dark skinned people who live in cold climates for example.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:49am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:51am:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:54am rhino wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:48am:
They only "need" them if they don't have a healthy, balanced diet and live a healthy lifestyle. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:00am greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:54am:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:11am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 5th, 2018 at 3:56pm:
Than that guy knows poo all about digestion. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Lisa Jones on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:13am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:47am:
You are absolutely correct! Some of us have medical issues eg I have Thalassemia (minor). I need to take supplements. And I eat a very healthy diet. I have to. Why? I don’t enjoy B6 injections! I’m far happier with taking supplements plus maintaining a healthy diet thank you very much! Bottom Line? Be guided by your own medically qualified health professional. Oh and for God’s sake....please ignore trolls like Groggy (who clearly has no idea)! |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:33am Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:13am:
Oh, you're so right dear. Humans wouldn't have managed to be around for 200,000 years if it wasn't for those supplements. Sure, Chemist Warehouse was a lot smaller back then, but at least our ancient ancestors still had access to an (albeit limited) range of multi-vitamins. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Lisa Jones on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:38am
Yep....like I said earlier :
Be guided by your OWN medically qualified health professional! Why? He/she knows YOUR medical history/issues and they have the necessary medical training to help you! |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:39am Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:38am:
Indeed, they do. And they also have the necessary kickbacks from drug companies to help themselves. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:44am
Back to your bridge TROLL you keep proving what an idiot you are on this issue... lol... just like you are on all the rest.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Lisa Jones on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:46am greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:39am:
So? All medications are subject to these “kickbacks”. Are you now seriously suggesting that people should refuse/stop taking any/all medications which are prescribed by their own fully qualified medical practitioner? :o :o |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:49am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:47am:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Lisa Jones on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:50am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:44am:
As you and everyone else has seen....he’s only making an utter fool of himself. I’m not sure why he’s bothering to hang around in here just to confirm it. :-/ |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Lisa Jones on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:51am Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:47am:
You are absolutely correct! Some of us have medical issues eg I have Thalassemia (minor). I need to take supplements. And I eat a very healthy diet. I have to. Why? I don’t enjoy B6 injections! I’m far happier with taking supplements plus maintaining a healthy diet thank you very much! Bottom Line? Be guided by your own medically qualified health professional. Oh and for God’s sake....please ignore trolls like Groggy (who clearly has no idea)! |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Fuzzball on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:57am greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:33am:
You just can't help yourself can you pessary......needless to say you were born an arsehole and you'll never change............we should feel sorry for you shouldn't we......... |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 12:05pm Fuzzball wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:57am:
They even have supplements for you: |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Fuzzball on Aug 6th, 2018 at 12:06pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 12:05pm:
Yes, you're a sad little pervert pessary...... |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 12:09pm Fuzzball wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 12:06pm:
There's a 2-for-1 offer on: |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 6th, 2018 at 12:19pm Gnads wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 8:08am:
I'll go out on a limb, here - and wager that if you picked 100 Australians, at random, put them through pathological testing on a broad range of vitamin and mineral loadings - you'd find a rough third of them would indicate deficiencies in a number of areas The ABS have done this regarding vitamin D3 http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4364.0.55.006Chapter2002011-12 Vitamin and mineral deficiencies do NOT necessarily show with immediate symptom The effects of deficiencies are more long term If you're "pissing out" vitamins - this is the body getting rid of a surplus dose your body is not needing - or absorbing It just means you can cut back the dosage, a bit |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Gnads on Aug 6th, 2018 at 1:30pm Lisa Jones wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:13am:
You have a medical condition. People who don't ... don't need to be taking them. It's the vast majority of people without medical conditions that take them thus making certain people filthy rich. My GP (medically qualified health professional) advised me that under normal circumstances it's a waste of money. My wife has a medical condition post cancer treatment that requires she take VitD & Calcium. If not for her medical condition she wouldn't be taking it. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Amadd on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:06pm Gnads wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 1:30pm:
By the same token, I can't see why your wife wouldn't be advised to drink some milk and get out in the sun a bit. I once believed in the benefits of vitamins, however, over the years I've come to the conclusion that they're a waste of money. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:13pm Amadd wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 3:06pm:
Ditto. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 5:34pm Grendel wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 9:47am:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 6th, 2018 at 5:36pm Fuzzball wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:57am:
He thinks Hadley is an egotistical fool.... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D he should take a look in a mirror. ::) ::) ::) |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:49pm rhino wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:48am:
I take magnesium tablets before bed to get a better night's rest. And I take D supplements because I have taken to working afternoons and nights out of the way of the sun. You just have to be out of the sun 99% of the day to need vitamin D tablets. 30 minutes of daylight exposure outside is sufficient. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 7th, 2018 at 12:05am Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:11am:
If you don't chew your food properly, you are eventually going to have visible portions of your food excreted out during a bowel movement. Whilst I agree that a multivitamin tablet's capsule is dissolvable during digestion, there is not the entire likelihood that your stomach's digestive enzymes and whatever the intestines produce can completely break down the tablet. But I think it is a load of rubbish too about not being able to get almost all of it absorbed. Except when you don't really need it, you you find your urine coloured brightly. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 7th, 2018 at 12:08am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 11:49pm:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 7th, 2018 at 12:32am rhino wrote on Aug 7th, 2018 at 12:08am:
My life would be so much more healthier if I cut out most sugar (if not, all), lowered my fat intake, no caffeine in the hours before bed, ate more fruits and vegetables, watched less television and used the internet less, and got plenty of regular exercise. But I don't do these things because I got addicted to being comfortable with food. It has only been lately that I have learned to enjoy being hungry for a prolonged time before eating. To answer your question, I have an aversion to getting sunburned. If I spend an hour out in the sun during the winter, I have to go home to a shower that is usually hot... and not fun for sunburns. Winter sports carnival at primary school usually ended up with us all (sun-screened or not) getting sunburned. I also have a fear of getting skin cancer. I have had probably 4 biopsies removing moles from my skin in the last 27 years. Unless they find a cure for skin cancer and/or know of a way to cure skin tags from the skin without surgery, you will find that I won't be spending a great deal of time in the sun. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 7th, 2018 at 12:36am
You must be a red head. Poor bugger.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 7th, 2018 at 2:00am rhino wrote on Aug 7th, 2018 at 12:36am:
Blond hair. Just a lot of moles over my body. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 7th, 2018 at 4:36pm
Vitamin D is fat soluble.
That means that it is stored in your body for around 6 months Vitamin D is also found in many foods For the vast majority of people a Vitamin D supplement is not needed |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 7th, 2018 at 4:54pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 7th, 2018 at 4:36pm:
No, the half-life of Vit D varies. Its 6 weeks for VIt D obtained from UV exposure. But less for supplements. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 7th, 2018 at 6:17pm rhino wrote on Aug 6th, 2018 at 10:48am:
Yep, but they are supplements Rhino..... D etc are of course Vitamins and many work in conjunction... eg D and Calcium etc good for bones... no? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 8th, 2018 at 6:36pm
I bought 5 bottles of PhysiCal (on special for $1.75 each 2L). After getting through a bottle each of the milk (even with coffee) I feel stronger. I would not waste $20 on vitamin D tablets if they did not work.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 8th, 2018 at 6:46pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 6:36pm:
"work"? Can you explain how they work? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 8th, 2018 at 10:16pm
People who suffer from Gastric Reflux and excessive stomach acid are prescribed medications that minimises the acid.... this can lead to food that is not properly broken down even capsules and pills that will make it right through the system. this of course also means that nutrients and vitamins from food are also not properly digested.
Supplements also help in this problem. ::) ::) ::) |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:10pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 6:46pm:
Calcium strengthens the bones. The Vitamin D improves muscle strength, circulation, etc. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:11pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
Circulation eh? How? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:14pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:11pm:
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/161618.php Quote:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:16pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:14pm:
I'll repeat my question because you have not answered how? I'm looking for a physiological mechanism for this. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213858713702122?via%3Dihub Actual peer reviewed article, showing no effect using meta-analysis. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:17pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
How do you know it's doing that, though? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:54pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:10pm:
Quote:
Strange that in your quote there is no mention of strengthening or improving. In afraid that you have fallen for the marketing hype and misunderstood the science. Vitamin supplements won't make you into a superman. At the very best they will maintain your health. Most of them are however just expensive placebos that if you are not careful about the dosage could actually be doing you harm. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 10th, 2018 at 7:56am
Here's something for Vitamin Supplement Value - Team Denial
Vitamania | Premieres Sunday August 12, 8.30pm on SBS Dr Derek Muller takes us on an epic journey to uncover why scientists disagree on the effectiveness and safety of vitamins and supplements. https://www.sbs.com.au/programs/vitamania I'm hoping Dr Muller can keep an open mind, on this But I know this is not usually the modus operandi of celebrity scientists and doctors, trying to lift their profiles As informative as TV's Dr Michael Mosley's documentaries are on obesity and diet - he's not TOTALLY without 'know it all' bias |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:33am The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 9:54pm:
Correct. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:50am Quote:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:45am Grendel wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:50am:
Yes. And we don't need supplements to get vitamin D. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Sir Spot of Borg on Aug 10th, 2018 at 12:32pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 9:45am:
When i was sick my vit D level got down to something ridiculous like 21% and i was allergic to the supplements that are made with soy oil. So I ate a small can of tuna every day for a few weeks and voila! no more deficiency. Seems the supplements werent even needed for a deficiency Spot |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 10th, 2018 at 12:38pm Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 12:32pm:
[smiley=thumbsup.gif] Tuna is very good. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 10th, 2018 at 12:40pm
Tuna is one of the worst foods you can eat due to heavy metal contamination. Explains a lot though, one of the signs of mercury poisoning is cognitive decline.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 10th, 2018 at 4:34pm
LOL
gweggy TROLL.... you aint everybody dopey. your circumstances are not everybody's... your problem... too much ego and ignorance. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Sir Spot of Borg on Aug 10th, 2018 at 5:07pm rhino wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 12:40pm:
Do you disagree or something? Why the attempt at an insult? Spot |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 10th, 2018 at 5:37pm Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 5:07pm:
Rhino and Grendel are only here to insult people. They know nothing else. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Grendel on Aug 10th, 2018 at 6:26pm Grendel wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 8:50am:
Liar liar pants on fire again Gweggy the TROLL. :D :D :D |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 11th, 2018 at 10:21am Yadda wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 6:47pm:
I'd take a guess, that bacteria and viruses steer clear of you ... - fearful of what THEY might catch |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 12th, 2018 at 10:31am Yadda wrote on Aug 4th, 2018 at 6:47pm:
personal testimony, being a subjective account, is open to many forms of error such as: wishful thinking; confirmation bias; self-deception; post hoc reasoning; and many more, including: deception by others - some anecdotal evidence is the result of deliberate falsification. For this reason, anecdotes do not qualify as robust evidence: there is not enough rigour to them and they have no scientific value. http://www.critical-thinking.org.uk/critical-thinking/fallacies/anecdotes.php |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:41am greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 9th, 2018 at 1:17pm:
Because I would go about my life being physically active either taking the vitamin D or doing without the vitamins. I felt physically stronger in my day to day activity. But after going a couple weeks without the vitamin D tablets, I felt physically weaker. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:48am
People told me long before this topic was created that I need not take vitamins. But, a doctor, who had analysed the blood sample results, told me that I was in need of taking vitamin D tablets for a short time.
I have also been encouraged to either take a vitamin B complex or spirulina tablets for the length of time needed to detox my body. They work within a week of having used the supplements or vitamins. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 13th, 2018 at 10:28am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:41am:
PLacebo effect. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 13th, 2018 at 10:41am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 1:48am:
"Detoxing – the idea that you can flush your system of impurities and leave your organs squeaky clean and raring to go – is a scam. "It’s a pseudo-medical concept designed to sell you things." You can’t detox your body. It’s a myth. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:11pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 10:28am:
After a couple weeks without it, the effect would start to wear off. It could not be a placebo effect if I have been physically stronger taking the tablets, whilst my alcohol intake has been higher over the last 2 months than it has been over the first 6 months of this year. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:13pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:11pm:
No its precisely fulfilling the placebo effect. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:19pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 13th, 2018 at 10:41am:
Ten years ago, I was left near sterile due to people poisoning my water supply. After resolving the issue of changing locks and renewing my drinking water with new containers and a different filtering system, my fertility has returned (albeit slightly lower than prior to my initial harassment). Green tea, black tea, ginger tea, asparagus, garlic, vitamin B complex, low sugar diets, coffee, fruits and vegetables, and low-fat meats not only help to lose weight, but also help restore fertility levels. Before 2016, I would not be able to run anymore than 300m of a 5km nightly walk. My blood vessels had constricted somewhat, making it difficult to breathe, have a healthy metabolism and lose weight. Using general detoxing methods, with clean drinking water being at the top of the list, does revitalise the body. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:21pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:19pm:
Its probably a sad indictment on me, that I just literally urinated with laughter. A mixzture of paranoia?, random pseudoscientific statements, etc. E.g. just out of curiosity, how did you know that your blood vessels constricted somewhat, and could you explain the mechanism leading vasoconstriction to reduced breathing and decreased metabolism? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 14th, 2018 at 1:34pm
leave rocky alone
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:19pm buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 10th, 2018 at 7:56am:
Very interesting program. Dr Derek Muller is a physicist so he didn't come into the program with preconceived biases. Here are some of the important points - A vitamin deficiency is bad for your health - A vitamin overdose is also bad for your health - The Vitamin supplements industry is completely unregulated. You have no idea what you are ingesting and what the dosage is - Vitamin supplements are almost entirely synthetic and are created in chemical factories. They are not "natural" - Vitamin D is the latest craze but the jury us still out about what levels are healthy and whether supplements are really necessary. By far the most interesting point made was that in general the people who take vitamin supplements don't actually need them because they eat healthily anyway. It makes a lot of sense because if you are motivated enough to buy and take vitamin supplements then it is likely that you are motivated to eat healthy food as well. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:25pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:19pm:
Looking at that list, I'm not sure what the fussabout the program was. We already well know most of these points apart from point 4 which is irrelevant. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Lisa Jones on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:34pm Grendel wrote on Aug 8th, 2018 at 10:16pm:
My husband seriously suffers from gastric reflux etc so the doctor prescribed him some tablets. NB This particular medication is unable to be bought over the counter. It requires a prescription. And this brings me to my earlier point in this topic : Refer/rely on YOUR medically qualified doctor’s advice at all times. Why? They have the relevant knowledge and they know YOUR particular circumstances. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:36pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:25pm:
I disagree many people (including unsubrocky) believe that vitamin supplements make you stronger and healthier. They don't Much of the marketing in the vitamins supplements industry is that vitamins are almost a "natural medicine". They arn't Most people don't realise just how unregulated the vitamin industry is. They have no idea what they are putting in their mouths |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:52pm
Sorry I meant we as in science. Still aware that science knowledge amongst the generalpopulation is pooe.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 15th, 2018 at 8:03pm
I logged off my computer before I was finished posting my last reply. Someone asked about the vasoconstriction symptoms I was experiencing. My arms and sometimes legs felt numb. There had been a number of cases where I was near collapse in the shopping centres. But that was more due to muscle weakness -- a relation to the lack of proper blood flow in my body. I had difficulty sleeping and difficulty sleeping soundly. Other than symptoms from snoring though impeding my breathing, I figure that the lack of proper blood flow had hindered a restful night's sleep. I had often gotten confused. I would be in the middle of doing something when I would suddenly forget what I was doing. I would go through dizzy spells and occasional headaches. My eyesight was not the greatest. But I would assume that my diabetes was more to do with that.
After changing my diet, and it is still not the best, and have added a few supplements for short-term gains whilst I ramp up my exercise routine, I am not having those experiences. I can get up after 6 hours sleep and go another 18 hours of the day, whereas I previously needed 8 hours to go do a 16 hour day. Going for a run would not leave me winded or having pain through part of my body. You can claim that reduced pain is due to my weight loss. It is not. I have a clean drinking water supply. I have changed my diet that cuts out vasoconstrictive symptoms. Amazing how well water melon juice or water melons itself have helped. I have also cut out certain supplements that I thought were doing me good, until I realised it was part of the problem. And, again, I do agree that we need not vitamins in our diet, if we have a good, nutritional diet. However, I need to buy $20 worth of vitamin D tablets once a year, just to stay on top of a low vitamin D level. My mother needed to take calcium tablets to overcome the symptoms of a developing osteoporosis issue. My father needs to take medication to remedy his diabetes and his heart problems. We don't necessarily need vitamins. But there is no need to condemn those that have the occasional supplements and vitamins. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 15th, 2018 at 8:20pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:36pm:
I don't think it is a matter of making you stronger and healthier. I think it is a matter of helping you the possibility of becoming stronger and healthier. For example, when I was on spirulina tablets, it definitely helped detox my body of a build up of toxins that I had acquired from drinking dirty drinking water (despite what my water filter would do for me). I was left dehydrated from taking a couple of spirulina tablets most days of the week. But, once the symptoms I was experienced subsided and ceased, I cut out the taking of spirulina tablets until the next round of problems. Did my initial course of metformin tablets help me lose weight. Or did the tablets help control blood sugar so that I was more motivated to go for a run or a ride or be more active, and have a better diet? That is no placebo effect, btw. Whatever the event, I am definitely showing good signs of improvement, seeing that the body is reverting to a more healthy look. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:01pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 8:03pm:
Numbness isn't justabout blood flow. Its about oxygen delivery. So again I ask how do you know its vasoconstriction |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:04pm
You think vessel constriction could not limit the amount of oxygen to the body?
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Unforgiven on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:27pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:04pm:
Diagnosis: The symptoms seem like low blood pressure. Could also be severe brain damage from reading Yadda's posts. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:28pm
Or anaemia. Or type 2 DM.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:46pm Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:27pm:
Seems fair. Usually get headaches reading those posts... or spam. Whatever you want to call it. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:48pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:28pm:
Fair. However, it is controlled by regular medication. I was on the mend in 2015/2016, until I was hit by another round of harassment. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:49pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:48pm:
Hang on, you're under 40 right? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 15th, 2018 at 10:11pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:49pm:
Uhuh? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:21am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 10:11pm:
So this may sound cruel, but I dont think your neighbours poisoning you is the greatest threat to your health. I suspect its your fork. Under 40, type 2 DM all these other dietary issues. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 16th, 2018 at 5:15pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 8:20pm:
No unsubrocky. You are posting psuedoscientific garbage again. The only thing that detoxes your body is your liver. Personal anecdotes and testimony are meaningless Placebos only work if you don't realise they are placebos |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 16th, 2018 at 5:21pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 5:15pm:
Yes. People refuse to believe it, though. They swear that these BS detox tablets, solutions, diets, etc. work. I wish people would wake up to the advertisers' and drug companies' lies. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:15pm
MetMetformindoesnt improve motivation to exercise. It was clearly placebo. Again, put down the fork eat a proper diet and stop taking poo.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:17pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:21am:
I did not say it was my neighbours' doing. There were a group of people trying to revenge attack my revenge attacks against their pharmaceutical interests. Part of that was to make a spare key for my front door, walk in to my house whilst I was at work, and add their own special blend of chemicals into my fresh drinking water. That all ended by 2016, when I changed the locks and upgraded security. So far, so good. The problem is that I this had been happening for about eight years prior to myself knowing about this problem. So, I had wondered why I had not been feeling well. Even with a long term healthy diet and no alcohol at one stage, I was not feeling better. My intial idea of how to deal with the health problems was to drink a lot of caffeinated drinks. Green tea, coffee, colas. Of course, the colas were doing me more harm than good, and I developed what I assume was diabetes by the time I was 32. My doctor told me that I did not have diabetes when I was 29 years old. I was diagnosed hyperglycemic by the time I was 35, and then told that I really did have diabetes when I was 37 -- in 2016 (and that the hyperglycemia diagnosis was actually diabetes). By the time I upgraded home security, and the junkie peddlers got distracted elsewhere, I made the decision to undo the damage that atleast I was responsible. That being, a changing diet, lower sugar, and whatever foods I could have to create vasodilation conditions. Had I not done so, I would have probably suffered a stroke by now. What I have been eating over the last 17 years since moving out of home has been moderate in nutritional value. But, I have been doing quite alright over the last 5 years. It is only a matter of improving the efforts in exercise levels and going very low in sugar and fat intake. My diet is probably average compared to other people. But it definitely is NOT what has caused me my majority of health problems in the last 12 years. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:28pm
Part of that was to make a sp re key for my front door, walk in to my house whilst I was at work, and add their own special blend of chemicals into my fresh drinking water. That all ended by 2016, when I changed the locks and upgraded security. So far, so good. The problem is that I this had been happening for about eight years prior to myself knowing about this problem. So, I had wondered why I had not been feeling well. Even with a long term healthy diet and no alcohol at one stage, I was not feeling better.
Ok, on reading this I don't think a doctor is in order. Unless he's going to refer you to a psychiatrist. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by AiA on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:42pm
I am a regular supplement consumer. They are a waste of money if you are eating the standard Western diet. But if you aren't and you use supplements in a targeted manner, they can be very useful.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:45pm The_Barnacle wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 5:15pm:
Ummm... would you like to say that about the kidney as well? Or the various other organs in the body that break down the fats and other impurities of the body? I am drinking a diluted fruit juice with added chia seeds. Do a research of chia seeds, and you will find that those seeds do quite a bit for the body. So, how do you come to conclusions about what is good for the body if you can't accept trial and error testimonies? Medical researches have had hundreds of years worth of trials to figure out what foods are helpful and what are impeding. But you would probably accept THEIR personal anecdotes. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:52pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:28pm:
So, you won't even consider the possibility that people can get into other people's houses through their own spare key? In my situation, someone used the spare key of my parents' home to get in and find the spare key to my place. They made a spare key from that, and replaced the original spare key back at my parents' place. Not convinced? Police had to notify me that I was at a potential risk of being harmed to the point that, in addition to the security cameras that I put in, the police have their own hidden cameras that they made me aware that they had done so. If I looked hard enough, I could probably find them. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Unforgiven on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:58pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:52pm:
I have cracked your case. You left home before you were weaned. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Gordon on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:01pm Unforgiven wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:58pm:
And you were nursed on 'milk' from an Indian sperm bank. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:11pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:15pm:
Metformin regulates blood sugar levels. Had I not started that medication, I would be a lot more sluggish in any motivation attempting at going for a run or a bike ride or maintaining a good diet. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:23pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 5:21pm:
https://www.businessinsider.com/vitamins-and-supplements-you-shouldnt-take-2018-4/?r=AU&IR=T https://www.rd.com/health/wellness/vitamins-the-good-the-useless-and-the-dangerous/ These two links basically say the same as each other. But they do make conclusions that we can get all the vitamins we need from a proper diet. HOWEVER, they would not say that all people should not take supplements. Only those that need it should be taking vitamins and supplements. I take vitamin D tablets during the winter, basically when I don't get enough sun 3 days out of the 7. If I am feeling okay, I need not take it. It is only $20 worth for the year, and then I ignore the tablets for the other 9 months. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:25pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:23pm:
I was talking about detox. Detox is BS. Scientifically proven to be nothing more than a scam. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:26pm Unforgiven wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:58pm:
I left home before I was properly educated on good diet practices. The fact that I fell in with the wrong crowd at my new place, did not help matters, either. But I don't blame other people for that. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:29pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:25pm:
Detoxing the body could mean simply just eating right and reducing blood sugar levels. I drink green tea, black tea, lemon and ginger tea. When I go to bed, I have a glass of water beforehand and urinate out the unnecessaries by morning. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 17th, 2018 at 12:52am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:52pm:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 17th, 2018 at 7:33am Unforgiven wrote on Aug 15th, 2018 at 9:27pm:
Not forgetting peripheral neuropathy - due to an ongoing B12 deficiency (very common) https://www.foundationforpn.org/what-is-peripheral-neuropathy/causes/vitamin-nutrition-deficiency/ |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 17th, 2018 at 8:32am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:29pm:
Your liver detoxes your body - not the food you eat, the liquids you drink, or the drugs/vitamins/supplements you take. The detox industry is a scam. It's not science - it's snake oil. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 17th, 2018 at 8:37am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:11pm:
It doesnt regulate blood sugar levels. It lowers blood sugar levels through various mechanisms. It does not provide motivation for exercise. I may suggest a course in pharmacology. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 17th, 2018 at 8:37am buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 7:33am:
In rockys case you dont even have to look at B12, peripheral neuropathy is a consequence of the T2 DM |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by buzzanddidj on Aug 17th, 2018 at 9:50am Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 8:37am:
In layman's terms, metformin allows the metabolism to use insulin to process blood glucose - where the metabolism has "forgotten" how to do so, on its own (this is Type 2 Diabetes) Metformin is oldest T2D treatment medication - discovered in 1957 - and yet to be improved on The condition (T2D) has NO "cure" - though may be put into remission through diet, in some cases |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 17th, 2018 at 2:03pm buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 9:50am:
Well I wasn't going to talk about GLUT-4 receptor sensititvity and number. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Gordon on Aug 17th, 2018 at 3:20pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:29pm:
The only 'detox' that seems to have some science about it is fasting which has an effect on the length of telomeres. The good news is you don't even have to starve yourself by fasting because and 8 or 10 hour eating window has the same effect. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 17th, 2018 at 3:58pm rhino wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 12:52am:
Let me guess. If someone gets mugged, and the victim claims to have been targeted, you are going to say that the victim was just paranoid? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 17th, 2018 at 4:01pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 8:37am:
I said the same as what you said, to a nurse at the hospital. She told me that metformin regulates blood sugar more efficiently. It does not lower blood sugar, outside of helping the body regulate blood sugar levels. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 17th, 2018 at 4:10pm buzzanddidj wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 9:50am:
People can recover the pancreas responsible for producing insulin sufficiently enough with proper diet and exercise. If I eliminate almost all sugar from my diet, drink lots of green tea, eat sweet potato, mushroom, garlic, onion more often, it can help undo diabetes. The pancreas can regenerate over time to satisfactory levels. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 17th, 2018 at 4:13pm Gordon wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 3:20pm:
Ginger tea has an effect on me to improve my digestion. I feel hungry much quicker than I do if I was having other tea drinks. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by AiA on Aug 18th, 2018 at 4:19am
When I take too much taurine my farts smell like hellfire & brimstone. When that happens I cut back and work my way back up ... until Satan starts laffing again.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Amadd on Aug 18th, 2018 at 6:41am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 4:13pm:
Ginger works for me, and maybe some garlic. Vitamins have never had any noticable efect. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Sir Spot of Borg on Aug 18th, 2018 at 7:18am
Back int he 80s there were some of those vitamins you dissolve in water and got at the supermarket that ppl used to take for hangovers. Dunno if they worked but everyone said they did. Cant remember what they were. IMO it was the water they toook them with because alcohol dehydrates you.
Spot |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 18th, 2018 at 10:52am Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Aug 18th, 2018 at 7:18am:
Berocca? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 18th, 2018 at 3:39pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 18th, 2018 at 10:52am:
I was going to mention Berocca. I bought a three pack of the item last year. Found them sitting in my cupboard last week. I will finish them up over the next week, before I try and get through my waste of money (but did not know that back then) multivitamins. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 3:58pm:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Sir Spot of Borg on Aug 19th, 2018 at 6:23am greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 18th, 2018 at 10:52am:
Maybe - i dont remember what it was but it was the cure-all Spot |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 19th, 2018 at 2:21pm rhino wrote on Aug 18th, 2018 at 4:26pm:
I should shake you out of your tree and try to catch you. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 19th, 2018 at 4:12pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 17th, 2018 at 4:10pm:
Then you dont understand what Type 2 DM is. Its more about response to insulin rather than insulin itself. To be honest, you have some idiotic ideas about pathophysiology |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 19th, 2018 at 10:20pm
Feel free to explain T2DM to me, instead of making baseless accusations against me. I shall compare it to what I saw on a recent video on the topic. Being diagnosed type 2 diabetic should mean that I understand more than you do, having researched the topic and related the symptoms that I have had to what has been explained to me.
And you would have to be fairly idiotic to reject good diet and exercise as being the major factor in controlling and even undoing type 2 diabetes. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Cu Chullain on Aug 19th, 2018 at 11:28pm
You're a strange guy unsub, you have all these little things you do, strange ideas you have(like stuff behind your ears), foods you eat, etc etc that are supposed to make you well, keep you well or cure you and you'd probably be one of the most unhealthy here yet you defend what you keep doing and everyone else is wrong.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by xeej on Aug 20th, 2018 at 12:15am
Vitamin supplements have not been proven not to work
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 20th, 2018 at 1:12am Cu Chulainn wrote on Aug 19th, 2018 at 11:28pm:
Five years ago, I weighed 128kg. Apparently, that was my upper limit because I was not gaining any further weight. I drank alcohol weekly. Drank colas at an average of one can per day. Fast food outlets saw me about twice a week. Exercise was rare. When I got on my bike for a ride to Stocklands, I was exhausted in the way I was after finishing a fun run back in high school. The problem being that I would ride a bike no more than 2km to get that tired... not run 5km like I did in high school. Sleep had been difficult to get. I managed to drop down to 98kg in early 2016. Down from 123kg in 2015. But I managed to stupidly gain 20kg over the year, seeing that alcohol seemed to make its comeback addiction. Now I am about 110kg, and I still have not a good diet... However, it is a whole lot better. I was planning a September start to sobriety and see how long I can go without alcohol. But, I made that start last night. Recent efforts include: *Disregarding certain sleep aids that have done more harm than good. *A glass of water before bed and a metformin tablet has done me a lot of good with effective sleep. I don't snore as much. *I vary my meals so that it is not a meat and vegetable diet 80% of the week. Though, I really should start having a salad a couple nights of the week. *I have to start eating sandwiches as an alternative to eating burgers or having a fast food meal after some night at work. I am also going to have to just take a canister of water to the cinema whilst I watch a movie. *Coffee will have to be the healthier (non-sugar) caffeinated alternative to colas. But, I will have to drink decaffeinated teas in the 6 hours before I plan to sleep. *I will definitely start running as much of the 5km I usually walk, most nights of the week. Push ups and sit ups will become also part of my exercise routine. Regarding your comment about putting Vicks Vaporub behind my ear, you do realise that Vicks can act as an antifungal agent. I also happen to put some Vicks on my toes when I go out for work or entertainment purposes. Vicks on, socks on, shoes on. A few hours later, I can come home and shower off and find that my feet are looking healthier. I also happen to take antibacterial lozengers during the pre-stages of having a sore throat. I sleep better during those rare times of year I have some form of cold. I am making improvements to my diet, attitude and exercise routine (which I should have done no sooner than 20 years ago). You don't know me more than what you read about what I type. Don't assume that I am some kind of sumo wrestler. Chances are, you are probably some bean pole that thinks that they are healthy. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Cu Chullain on Aug 20th, 2018 at 7:19pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 20th, 2018 at 1:12am:
A man's gotta to do what a man's gotta do. You've got to make your own choices but I hope you listen to others as well. No-one here is trying to make you get less healthy. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 20th, 2018 at 9:56pm
There are a few that want to insult someone for actually trying to get better. I have become healthier. 18kg lighter. Still have a minimum of 20kg to lose.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 20th, 2018 at 10:05pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 19th, 2018 at 2:21pm:
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 21st, 2018 at 2:14am
The idea is to try... and fail to catch you. Then ask for some appreciation that I tried.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 21st, 2018 at 11:17am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 19th, 2018 at 10:20pm:
You saw a video. What do you think I teach? And I wasn't talking about your comment re diet and exercise. I was talking about the other statement The pancreas can regenerate over time to satisfactory levels. That is not what happens in diet and exercises effect on T2 DM. Let me explain. Type 1 is an auto-immune disorder where antibodies attack the beta cells of the pancreasand thus the insulin production drops away. Type 2 is a condition whereby due to diet and exercise (plus some genetics, plus some other things - its multifactorial) the cells of the body which use the GLUT-4 transporter (adipose tissue, skeletal muscle) to move glucose into the cell see a reduced response to the signal for that transport channel to open (which is insulin). In early Type 2 DM, there is hyperinsulinaemia, the pancreas is working overtime. It doesn't need to regenerate. In later stages of Type 2, you see the drop in insulin production, only because the beta cells become so overworked they begin to atrophy. Diet and exercise have two benefits. They decrease the overall sugar entering the blood and they increase the receptor sensitivity to insulin. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 21st, 2018 at 3:37pm
Your explanation of T2DM is similar in information to the video that I watched on the topic. There is nothing wrong with having a diet that either reinvigorates the pancreas or keeps it healthy. Whatever glucose is not used for energy in the cells gets stored as fats. Which is why during a fasting period, the breakfast would allow the body to become more alert and active as the body has a receptive nature to a new energy source needed to work for the first 6 hours of the day. It is also the reason why the body needs no sugar and not to eat a few hours before bed to have an effective sleep. Drinking water helps flush/dilute the body of higher concentrations of glucose and allows the body to digest whatever food you have consumed over the last few hours. By morning, your body starts getting into a starvation mode until that breakfast restarts the daily process again.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 21st, 2018 at 4:10pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 21st, 2018 at 3:37pm:
And yet somehow after all that you still seem focused on the pancreas. And your explanation of dilution of blood glucose and digestion is way off. Might I suggest just eating a healthy diet and doing exercise and ignoring all the other BS. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by greggerypeccary on Aug 21st, 2018 at 4:14pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 21st, 2018 at 4:10pm:
Yes! And, with a sensible diet, there's no need for hours of exercise a day. Just walk to the shops more, take the stairs, etc. Cut down on red meat (especially processed meats). Include some brown/red rice in your diet, and some lentils now and then. Avoid sausage rolls, chips, cans of coke etc. It's really not that hard to do. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 21st, 2018 at 9:58pm greggerypeccary wrote on Aug 21st, 2018 at 4:14pm:
I walk 5km a night, most nights of the week. Otherwise, it comes down to the work hours I do, which is quite physical much of the time. We might eat a healthy diet. But you need to exercise often enough to keep healthy. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 21st, 2018 at 10:00pm Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 21st, 2018 at 4:10pm:
Healthy eating and exercise will counter diabetes quite well. But keeping a healthy pancreas is important as well. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 4:08pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 21st, 2018 at 10:00pm:
How so? Since a healthy pancreas will do bugger all for your receptor response, which is the issue in Type 2 DM. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:46pm
So, the issue you are saying is having a high glucose diet will mean that the cells will not receive the glucose in relative efficiency, irrespective of how well the pancreas works?
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 12:46am
I believe its commonly accepted medical knowledge that type 2 diabetes can be managed effectively by diet and exercise, whether this is considered a "cure" or not is largely irrelevant.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 1:06am
I have heard of people who have undergone a low sugar diet, good exercise program to the point where they are basically cured of their type 2 diabetes. They could redevelop diabetes later if they lapse into a poor diet or lazy exercise.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Rhino on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 1:59am
if your bodys out of balance you are gonna be susceptible to a lot of illness. High blood pressure, high cholesterol, all this lifestyle illness the big pharma companies making trillions peddling their quack treatments for, all you need is good diet and exercise.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 10:06am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:46pm:
' Yes. What I have been saying all along while you keep banging on about irrelevant stuff. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 11:53pm
What irrelevant stuff?
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 24th, 2018 at 9:50am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 11:53pm:
Like a healthy pancreas, like all the other vitamins and weird poo you're trying. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 24th, 2018 at 9:51am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 23rd, 2018 at 1:06am:
Yes, because exercise improves receptor response. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 24th, 2018 at 2:04pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:46pm:
And not quite. The pancreas releases insulin in response to a high blood sugar level. Insulin acts as a signal to open the GLUT-4 transporter channel protein allowing glucose to enter certain cells (adipose and skeletal muscle in particular). Having chronically high blood glucose (and fats as well)) forces your pancreas to make more insulin as a result, but the receptor sensitivity drops. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 25th, 2018 at 12:38am
I guess I should have been more clear. The cells, being subjected to a bloodstream of high glucose levels over a long period of time, would not want to absorb glucose as there is an abundance of the stuff. Therefore, the receptors are not as active, citing a wealth of glucose that can later be absorbed. So the cells shuts off receiving more than necessary glucose, ie., it has got what it needs for now. The receptors are dependant on circumstances of physical activity to re-engage the cells ability to absorb the glucose.
Further to that point, the excess glucose either gets excreted or changed to body fat for storage for later reconversion into a glucose so that the cells can get the energy it needs, during times of fasting/starvation. If what I wrote is correct, then it is something I have known for years. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 25th, 2018 at 12:46am
When I was 18 years old, I was overwrought with work and university. I went from being a slightly overweight/healthy range 75kg high school student, to a 60kg university student who looked more PTSD than a returned serviceman. Having worked as a delivery driver in my late teens, I made the mistake of drinking sugary drinks too often, and not enough water. My muscles had atrophied to the point that I was a candidate for an extras role as a holocaust victim in some WW2 epic. But, by the time I got the idea that my sugary drinks I was using to 'rehydrate' my body, I had done more harm to myself than I ever could undo psychologically. It took the immediate change to drinking water as the drink of choice, before I could start making a recovery.
I can probably claim that the lack of foresight as an 18 year old that probably pushed me into diabetes. Though, I was not diagnosed as one until I was in my 30s. This topic certainly rings some memory bells for me. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 25th, 2018 at 9:19pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 12:38am:
No its not correct. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 25th, 2018 at 10:46pm
I am going to watch another video on the topic. Perhaps that will make it perfectly clear for me.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 27th, 2018 at 9:57am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 10:46pm:
How about a textbook or a referenced article? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 27th, 2018 at 4:47pm
I can go to my QBD store and buy a book on the topic, to explain things further. It has been 14 years since diabetes was explained to me in thorough detail. Even your version of the topic has not had me recall considerable information about diabetes.
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Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:46pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 4:47pm:
Mate I meant a proper textbook. E.g. Understanding pathophysiology. You wont get that from a QBD store. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Yadda on Aug 27th, 2018 at 7:39pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 10:46pm:
UnSub, Watch this video, if you can be bothered. I do recommend it to you. But some here, would say that my recommendation, is no recommendation. :P How Steve Lost 68 lbs in 5 Months and Has No Symptoms of Parkinson's, Diabetes, or Bipolar Disorder 261 mb! 26 min http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klCbBUwykG4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klCbBUwykG4 ADDENDUM; Oh dear! It looks like YT have taken that video down. TOO BAD. It was quite informative. [i have a copy of it on my HD, coz i d/loaded it.] Q. Is what we have learnt in this life [and believe] until now, always to be accepted as correct ? Q. Do you always trust experts [in any particular field of endeavour] ? Q. Should we trust experts [in any particular field of endeavour] ? Q. Why so ? . Google; it is wholly implausible that peptic ulcers can be caused by stomach bacteria ....prevailing medical experts, once insisted "A little learning is a dangerous thing." - ? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 28th, 2018 at 2:03am Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:46pm:
What is your favourite website on the topic that can explain diabetes? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 28th, 2018 at 8:36am UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 2:03am:
None. Try an actual book. Referenced. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by The_Barnacle on Aug 28th, 2018 at 12:57pm Yadda wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
I will always trust experts in a field over you tube videos. To do otherwise would be insane |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 28th, 2018 at 4:46pm Quote:
What is your favourite book on the topic that can explain diabetes? |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by Bojack Horseman on Aug 28th, 2018 at 4:48pm UnSubRocky wrote on Aug 28th, 2018 at 4:46pm:
What is your favourite book on the topic that can explain diabetes?[/quote] Well I would suggest Pathophysiology by Porth and Martini. But to prepare you I would suggest Fundamentals of Anatomy and Physiology by Martini Nath and Bartholomew. |
Title: Re: We dont need vitamin supplements Post by UnSubRocky on Aug 28th, 2018 at 9:48pm
"Essentials of Pathophysiology" by Carol Porth is on order. "Fundamentals of Anatomy and Physiology" also on order. Both for $62 total.
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