Imagine my nickname is 'Der Kaiser', and I am a committed Nazi: my family are all Nazis, and I consider Nazism to be part of my identity. Every day over the dinner table, we make an affirmation to Hitler. I even have a poster of Hitler on my bedroom wall.

I'm proud of my Nazi ideology. I have read about the history of Nazism and I shun violence completely. I don't support militarism or totalitarianism, but I am convinced that Nazism is peaceful ideology, and that Hitler is the best example of a human being.

Nazism is a peaceful ideology. Der Fuhrer is the best example of a human being.

Prove me wrong.

Please be advised that this is an intellectual experiment, and does not reflect my true views.

Are you talking now, or if you are in 1920s/30s

Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 2:46pm:

Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::)

No, because I don’t support Nazism.

Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people?

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 2:07pm:

Are you talking now, or if you are in 1920s/30s

I’m talking now.

Auggie wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 4:31pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people?

Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).   

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 6:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).

Well, National Socialists believe in Freedom of Religion too. We are also Australian citizens. All citizens of National Socialism enjoy those freedoms too.

Auggie wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 1:40pm:

Imagine my nickname is 'Der Kaiser', and I am a committed Nazi: my family are all Nazis, and I consider Nazism to be part of my identity. Every day over the dinner table, we make an affirmation to Hitler. I even have a poster of Hitler on my bedroom wall. I'm proud of my Nazi ideology. I have read about the history of Nazism and I shun violence completely. I don't support militarism or totalitarianism, but I am convinced that Nazism is peaceful ideology, and that Hitler is the best example of a human being. Nazism is a peaceful ideology. Der Fuhrer is the best example of a human being. Prove me wrong. Please be advised that this is an intellectual experiment, and does not reflect my true views.

;D ;D ;D If you are serious, you should post this in Philosophy.

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 6:19pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).

Well, there's another point of difference. I don't believe any government should afford special status to the organised indoctrination of children who we all know have not developed the powers of critical thinking. That indoctrination is a crime against humanity.

Auggie wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 6:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 6:19pm: Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).    Well, National Socialists believe in Freedom of Religion too. We are also Australian citizens. All citizens of National Socialism enjoy those freedoms too.

No worries, Augur. If your version of Nazism allows freedom of belief, freedom of all races to coexist, and peace with your neighbours, it's all good.

issuevoter wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 7:09pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 6:19pm: Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).    Well, there's another point of difference. I don't believe any government should afford special status to the organised indoctrination of children who we all know have not developed the powers of critical thinking. That indoctrination is a crime against humanity.

Good point. When I was a kid, we were sent on these harmless-sounding Christian camps. We were taught we had to choose between heaven or hell then and there, with counsellors holding our hands and praying for us.

We all chose Jesus, of course.

Kids should be taught religion like everything else. I'd hold off on the cult-like conversions, however. As the Quran states, there should be no compulsion in religion.

Auggie wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 6:28pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 6:19pm: Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).    Well, National Socialists believe in Freedom of Religion too. We are also Australian citizens. All citizens of National Socialism enjoy those freedoms too.

Do they, Augie?  Appears to me they don't like Jews enjoying Freedom of Religion.  Nor it seems Muslims.   Appears to me that your rationale has fallen at the first hurdle.   Tsk, tsk.   ::)

issuevoter wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2018 at 7:09pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 6:19pm: Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).    Well, there's another point of difference. I don't believe any government should afford special status to the organised indoctrination of children who we all know have not developed the powers of critical thinking. That indoctrination is a crime against humanity.

Funny how we haven't read very much from you promoting the banning of Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc...   Tsk, tsk.   ::)

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2018 at 5:17pm:

issuevoter wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 7:09pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 6:19pm: Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).    Well, there's another point of difference. I don't believe any government should afford special status to the organised indoctrination of children who we all know have not developed the powers of critical thinking. That indoctrination is a crime against humanity. Funny how we haven't read very much from you promoting the banning of Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc...   Tsk, tsk.   ::)

Funny how we have never read about you promoting those religions brian, you silly little boy.

kemal wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2018 at 5:49pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 5:17pm: issuevoter wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 7:09pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 6:19pm: Auggie wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 4:31pm: Brian Ross wrote on Feb 2nd, 2018 at 2:46pm: Have you tried selling this idea to the Jewish community, Augie?   ::) No, because I don’t support Nazism. Here’s a question: have you tried selling the idea that Islam is a religion of peace to infidels, including the Jewish people? Nope.  I am not a Muslim, either, Augie.  I just believe in Freedom of Religion, Speech and Association.   Muslims are Australian ciitizens.  All Australians enjoy those three freedoms (as well as others).    Well, there's another point of difference. I don't believe any government should afford special status to the organised indoctrination of children who we all know have not developed the powers of critical thinking. That indoctrination is a crime against humanity. Funny how we haven't read very much from you promoting the banning of Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc...   Tsk, tsk.   ::) Funny how we have never read about you promoting those religions brian, you silly little boy.

Why should I promote any religion?  I am an agnostic.   Oh, and before you claim I promote Islam you are wrong.  I merely suggest that tolerance should be shown towards ordinary, everyday, moderate, assimilated, Muslims and that they be allowed to practice their religion in the same way that Christianity/Judaism/Hinduism/Buddhism/etc. are.   ::)

There is nothing more peaceful than dead people.

Your opening premise seems a bit contradictory...

Perhaps you'd like to define Nazism...  for the purpose of this debate.  as you can see there are some here you will get no sense from.

One dictionary definition is found under Nazi... 
Quote:

a member of the National Socialist German Workers' Party, which controlled Germany from 1933 to 1945 under Adolf Hitler and advocated totalitarian government, territorial expansion, anti-Semitism, and Aryan supremacy, all these leading directly to World War II and the Holocaust.

Brian, if you are not a Nazi, do you have the right or ability to criticise Nazism?

Ok, for the sake of context: let's use an example.

Let's imagine an alternate history scenario in which WWII didn't happen and the Nazi regime continued to be in power until the present day. Let's also say that Hitler died in 1966, after which time the Nazi regime began to 'moderate' itself: it no longer preached racial superiority, but believed in cultural superiority; it allowed local elections of party members, but those members were still of the Nazi Party; and most importantly it shunned the militancy of Hitler. Just think of present-day China as an example.

Let's say that during the 51 years since Hitler's death, there have a random spate of terror attacks from Nazi 'extremists' who wish to restore Nazism to its true roots and who seek to spread Nazism globally. After every terrorist attack, the Nazi regime and 'mainstream' Nazis have come out and stated categorically that: "these people are extremists and do not reflect the Nazi ideology", even though those who are committing those acts profess to be committing those acts in the name of Nazism.

Let's also say that recently, in this alternate reality, an organization has been formed called: "the Nazi State for Germany and Europe". This organization has been founded because of Europe's efforts to contain Germany and form an EU-style state. The leaders of NSGE claim to be representing Nazism, whilst the actual Nazi regime condemns the NSGE and says that NSGE's interpretation of Nazism is not the true Nazism. In this alternate reality, many people of German background among the German diaspora have gone to join NSGE to fight in the name of Nazism.

Also, in the alternate reality, we have seen evidence of Nazi migrants from Germany to other countries form isolate pockets of communities and have failed to integrate. Reports of discrimination against non-White citizens are prevalent, and reports of the Nazi flag being raised are also prevalent. Let's also say that in these isolated communities, the majority of women are stay-at-home mothers whose fathers work. Also, in these communities, the language spoken is German, and the migrants refuse to speak English because they believe they are superior. Some children at school refuse to listen to the teacher because they are not white.
----
Here are some questions based on this alternate reality:

1) Is the Nazi State of Germany and Europe (NSGE) representative of true 'Nazism' or are they extremists?

2) Should the international community screen migrants from Germany and other parts of the world to determine if they subscribe to the NSGE's ideology?

3) Would criticism of Nazism be considered racist? Would it be considered Naziphobic (don't forget that in this alternate reality, WW2 didn't happen, which means Nazism doesn't has the same perception as it does in this reality).
-----
Now, here are some questions based on both realities.

1) Is the Islamic State (ISIS) comparable to the Nazi State of Germany and Europe in the alternate reality?

2) Is Islam comparable to Nazism in the alternate reality? i.e. both ideologies have evolved over time and most of the practitioners of both Islam (in the current reality) and Nazism (in the alternative reality) have shunned militarism and violence?

3) Would the world be as concerned about Nazism in the alternate reality as they would be with Islamism in the current reality?

4) Does Nazism (in the alternate reality) teach violence and racial superiority, and call upon its followers to spread Nazism across the world even though the majority of Nazism's history has been peaceful and has not subscribed to an ideology of violence and militancy??  Again, bear in mind that WW2 didn't happen.

5) Imagine that OzPol in the alternate reality has a thread called 'Nazism' and that a recent convert to Nazism called 'Gandalf' is an ardent defender of Nazism; and that other members such as Freediver, Caesar, Frank etc. are criticising Nazism as a violent and militant ideology? Other members on the Left such as Brian Ross are criticising Frank as being Naziphobic, and believes that German 'mainstream' Nazis should be welcomed into Australia and that Nazism is compatible with modern democracy.

It all depends how broad the ideology is and what ability there is to cherry pick the bits you want.

I imagine there were German Nazis who where in it purely for the nationalism and restoration of German pride.

Gordon wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 3:26pm:

It all depends how broad the ideology is and what ability there is to cherry pick the bits you want. I imagine there were German Nazis who where in it purely for the nationalism and restoration of German pride.

Ok, let's say that during Hitler's reign until 1966, there was a cult which developed, which made Hitler a Prophet of God who was appointed by God to restore purity to the world; Mein Kampf became religious scripture. Let's say that after Hitler's death this cult continued and was considered to be the state religion of Nazi Germany. But, of course other leaders further developed the Nazi ideology which toned down Hilter's belligerence and racial purity, which became part of the cult religion, focusing on more of the spiritual elements of Nazism. Most of Hitler's expansionist doctrine remained, but there the 'Offensive Struggle' became an 'Inner Struggle'.

The extremists in this alternate reality, cite the examples of Hitler and his sayings. When they commit acts of violence (suicide bombings), they say: "Sieg Hail!".

Question: does the fact that these suicide bombers cite 'Sieg Hail' before blowing themselves up indicate that they are committing these acts in the name of Nazism, or are the suicide bombers motivated by something else?

It most certainly does indicate they are committing these acts in the name of Nazism.

If the spiritual Nazis don't like that, they should push for a reformation of their texts to expunge anything which could possibly justify violence.

Hopefully Mein Kampf doesn't have a line stating that it was created perfect and can't be altered. :)

Gordon wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 3:55pm:

It most certainly does indicate they are committing these acts in the name of Nazism. If the spiritual Nazis don't like that, they should push for a reformation of their texts to expunge anything which could possibly justify violence. Hopefully Mein Kampf doesn't have a line stating that it was created perfect and can't be altered. :)

Which makes it less likely to evolve, or more likely to reform?

Auggie wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 3:58pm:

Gordon wrote on Feb 5th, 2018 at 3:55pm: It most certainly does indicate they are committing these acts in the name of Nazism. If the spiritual Nazis don't like that, they should push for a reformation of their texts to expunge anything which could possibly justify violence. Hopefully Mein Kampf doesn't have a line stating that it was created perfect and can't be altered. :) Which makes it less likely to evolve, or more likely to reform?

That does seem to be a bit of a tripwire which makes Islam incompatible with modernity.

If they just ignored all the freaky stuff it would be OK, but clear evidence is that they're not. 

Gordon wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 4:46pm:

Auggie wrote on Feb 5th, 2018 at 3:58pm: Gordon wrote on Feb 5th, 2018 at 3:55pm: It most certainly does indicate they are committing these acts in the name of Nazism. If the spiritual Nazis don't like that, they should push for a reformation of their texts to expunge anything which could possibly justify violence. Hopefully Mein Kampf doesn't have a line stating that it was created perfect and can't be altered. :) Which makes it less likely to evolve, or more likely to reform? That does seem to be a bit of a tripwire which makes Islam incompatible with modernity. If they just ignored all the freaky stuff it would be OK, but clear evidence is that they're not.

That's the problem with Islam: there can be nothing after it. It is the final word of God.

Now you've blown your cover for the argument about Islam.

I'd rather discuss what a National Socialist could be...  in this brave new world of yours...

ISIS certainly seems to have much in common with Hitler's Nazism.  That is a given.

Grendel wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 7:28pm:

Now you've blown your cover for the argument about Islam. I'd rather discuss what a National Socialist could be...  in this brave new world of yours... ISIS certainly seems to have much in common with Hitler's Nazism.  That is a given.

Well, the whole point was to reverse the situation: how would people behave if the ideology was Nazism instead of Islamism???

Question: in this alternate reality, would those terrorists be practising the real Nazism, or would they be extremists, practising a perverse interpretation of the Nazi ideology?

Quote:

ordinary, everyday, moderate, assimilated Muslims

do not exist.
They are properly called apostates buy sharia-observant, unassimilated muslims.

Muhammad's religion was so successful because he established his thousand year reich. I expect if Hitler had achieved the same military success as Muhammad, Nazism would have morphed into an ideology very similar to Islam.

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 9:33pm:

Muhammad's religion was so successful because he established his thousand year reich. I expect if Hitler had achieved the same military success as Muhammad, Nazism would have morphed into an ideology very similar to Islam.

Hitler should have come up with an easy way to convert Nazism

There is no true god but God and Adolf is the Messenger of God.”

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 9:33pm:

Muhammad's religion was so successful because he established his thousand year reich. I expect if Hitler had achieved the same military success as Muhammad, Nazism would have morphed into an ideology very similar to Islam.

Both Nazis and Muslims want to kill all the Jews so they have quite a bit in common.

Although Muhammad started out slaughtering Jews, in the end he was far more hostile to pagans. They wiped them out in a short period of time. Then again, Hitler was more than happy to kill gypsies.

Gordon wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 9:41pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 5th, 2018 at 9:33pm: Muhammad's religion was so successful because he established his thousand year reich. I expect if Hitler had achieved the same military success as Muhammad, Nazism would have morphed into an ideology very similar to Islam. Hitler should have come up with an easy way to convert Nazism There is no true god but God and Adolf is the Messenger of God.”

Hitler actually loved Islam. He believed that Christianity was too light and benign, and that he preferred Islam for the German people.

Wouldn't have surprised me if Hitler was a closet Muslim?

Right, Karnal?

Superior Culture, innit?

freediver wrote on Feb 5^th, 2018 at 9:44pm:

Although Muhammad started out slaughtering Jews, in the end he was far more hostile to pagans. They wiped them out in a short period of time. Then again, Hitler was more than happy to kill gypsies.

Until the Muslims got to Spain then the Spanish Inquisition kicked them out.


There is one faith and all else is sin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3g76LwvbBEI

Hitler had a Bosnian muslim SS division  he used the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem to recruit muslims for it, it was called Handschar.

The German leader in WWI was an Islamophile.

According to Gandalf, even though all the central powers in WWI were some kind of dictatorship, and the remaining European democracies were on the other side, it is wrong to conclude that the outcome of WWI had any implications for the fate of democracy in Europe.

Not sure what you think I said FD.

As for democracy in Europe after WWI - Germany and Italy became fascist dictatorships because of WWI - while both had fledgling parliamentary democracies before. Russia on the other hand became a Bolshevist one party state in large part because of WWI.

Not sure if WWI can be said to have any direct effects on the progression of democracy in Britain and France and other places - but it may have.

What I would ask is this:


What were the lost historic opportunities of steering Muslim countries towards functional, normal, civil societies where the citizens pull together and are happy, productive, free, fraternal and looking forward to an even better future for their children, whom they love more than they love death?


That's my question to Muslims.

Frank wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 5:50pm:

free

Does that include being "free" to cover their hair and wear pyjamas and long beards?

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 10:37am:

Frank wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 5:50pm: free Does that include being "free" to cover their hair and wear pyjamas and long beards?

We are well past that, gandalf. Maybe 10-20 years ago people would have taken you seriously with such a question but not any more.


Now everyone sees through your question straight away: 'free to Submit and repudiate freedom'?

http://capro.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Freedom-of-Expression-Go-to-Hell-300.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5FekS1sb6sM/UxWVYKFmS0I/AAAAAAAAKIY/VH1rgWit13c/s1600/Massacre-Those-Who-Insult-Islam.jpg

And so on and so forth.   :o :o  tsk, tsk.

polite_gandalf wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 2:38pm:

Not sure what you think I said FD. As for democracy in Europe after WWI - Germany and Italy became fascist dictatorships because of WWI - while both had fledgling parliamentary democracies before. Russia on the other hand became a Bolshevist one party state in large part because of WWI. Not sure if WWI can be said to have any direct effects on the progression of democracy in Britain and France and other places - but it may have.

This is the guy who lead Germany into WWI. He was the Kaiser from 1888 to 1918:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_(German_Empire)

The third of these, Wilhelm II, objected to a much greater extent to the very concept of parliament as a democratic institution.

Do you really think a victory by Wilhelm II would have boded well for democracy in Europe?

You also failed to mention Germany's principle allies of the Ottoman Empire (ie, Muslims) and Austria-Hungary (last phase of the Habsburg monarchy).

How about those two? What do you think would have happened if they had won?

One Muslim empire, the last bastion of traditional European monarchy, and Germany under a kaiser who hated democracy but had a weird fetish for Islam. Are you seriously telling us that a victory by these three would not have made a significant difference to the spread of democracy through Europe?