God speaks to man through our spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love.

Those who can't feel and understand it are spiritual cripples.

What was God saying in Texas this morning?

God freaks are intellectual cripples, and evolutionary throw-backs to a time when you could impress people with a mirror.

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 10:42am:

What was God saying in Texas this morning?

Prayers are ineffective against guns?

Harvard did a study on prayer, it doesn't work nobody is listening.

Atheists are just the Anti-Religion 'hitmen' of the Science community.

Jasin wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 9:58pm:

Atheists are just the Anti-Religion 'hitmen' of the Science community.

Maybe but never hear of an atheist running into a large crowd and yelling "SCIENCE" before blowing themselves up. Or blowing up an abortion clinic.

Jasin wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 9:58pm:

Atheists are just the Anti-Religion 'hitmen' of the Science community.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Scientific_evidence_for_God%27s_existence

capitosinora wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 10:12am:

God speaks to man through our spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. Those who can't feel and understand it are spiritual cripples.

God is like an abusive spouse, here's why. (Signs you are in an abusive relationship)

Plays tricks to "test" the relationship.
Claims they hurt you because they love you.
Demands you do as they say without question.
If you behave or think in a way in which they disapprove, they threaten you with harm.
Isolate you from anyone who disagrees.
Tells you this is what true love is.
Blames you for their shortcomings.

Those who can't feel and understand that are truely free.

capitosinora wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 10:12am:

spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love.

All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity.

capitosinora wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 10:12am:

God speaks to man through our spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. Those who can't feel and understand it are spiritual cripples.

Whatever "God" does or does not do, it does not provide specific individuals with special insights into the nature of the Universe. Consciousness is not doled out in uneven amounts, even though you wish it were so. You don't know anything more about the subject than anyone else, but like all God Freaks you preach your arrogant claim to personal acquaintance with truth.

Religion is a by-product of Writing.
Spirituality is a by-product of Fashion.
Both are the by-product of the Middle-East 'people'
who are ruled by a Green-skinned Reptilian Military Emperor from South America.
;D

Judaism: A religion that emerged in the Middle-East that is heavily themed and influenced by the region of Asia. Hence why Jews empower themselves 'individually' in regards to the tiny little Asians cliché and all things Holy 'City'.
Their Book is physically 'attached' to the Christian Book, but mentally tells a different story.

Christianity: A 'double-Helix' Religion that emerged in the Middle-East and is heavily themed and influenced by the region of Europe. Hence why Christians are focused on the Last Supper (Cooking) and Healing (Medicine).

Mohommedism: A Religion that emerged in the Middle-East and is heavily themed and influenced by the region of Africa. Hence why Moslems empower themselves as 'mass production breeders' in relation to the 'token African individualism' that comes up from the deep south and all things Holy 'Land'. Their Book is physically detached from the Christian Book but mentally tells the same story.

Judaism, Christianity & Mohommedism are three 'Old World' Religions created by the Middle-East to reflect Asia, Europe & Africa.

Now that the 'New Worlds' of Namerica, Oceania, Sahul (Australia) & Samerica have appeared...

...the 'Way to God' is not what it once seemed. ;)

Jasin wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 9:58pm:

Atheists are just the Anti-Religion 'hitmen' of the Science community.

That would be antitheists. Most Atheists don't give a damn about being anti-religion, and some religions don't even involve a deity, for example some forms of Buddhism and Jainism.

An Atheist could easily belong to one of those.

You can't generalise about Atheists.  They vary from the religion tolerant non-theist who plays the church organ, to the "froth at the mouth" militant who is totally intolerant and disrespectful of religion.

You could argue that atheists or non theists in general could be more spiritual.


Quote:

The difference between theism and nontheism is not whether one does or does not believe in God... Theism is a deep-seated conviction that there's some hand to hold.  Non-theism is relaxing with the ambiguity and uncertainty of the present moment without reaching for anything to protect ourselves... Nontheism is finally realizing there is no babysitter you can count on

 
(Pema Chödrön)

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7^th, 2017 at 10:56am:

capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity.

Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities.

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 11:28am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities.

Indeed, these are philosophical concepts.

capitosinora wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 10:12am:

God speaks to man through our spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. Those who can't feel and understand it are spiritual cripples.

Humanity doesn't need a god belief to feel spirituality. Embracing a moment in time, marveling Nature... is spirituality in practice.

Spirituality is a word without tangible meaning. Its a conundrum. First you have to "believe" it before you can give it meaning. But then you have to examine what belief means to you. I don't dish out belief on anything to do with esoteric knowledge of reality. It is a childish concept.

issuevoter wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2018 at 8:40am:

Spirituality is a word without tangible meaning. Its a conundrum. First you have to "believe" it before you can give it meaning. But then you have to examine what belief means to you. I don't dish out belief on anything to do with esoteric knowledge of reality. It is a childish concept.

Therefore Existentialism is childish?

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 8:40am: Spirituality is a word without tangible meaning. Its a conundrum. First you have to "believe" it before you can give it meaning. But then you have to examine what belief means to you. I don't dish out belief on anything to do with esoteric knowledge of reality. It is a childish concept. Therefore Existentialism is childish?

More mid to late teens

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17^th, 2018 at 11:28am:

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities.

And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual.


There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking?


To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t.

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 1:08pm:

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 25th, 2018 at 12:13pm: issuevoter wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 8:40am: Spirituality is a word without tangible meaning. Its a conundrum. First you have to "believe" it before you can give it meaning. But then you have to examine what belief means to you. I don't dish out belief on anything to do with esoteric knowledge of reality. It is a childish concept. Therefore Existentialism is childish? More mid to late teens

http://www.abc.net.au/radio/sydney/programs/drive/john-paul-sartre/9358938

Here's  a visual summary of the 60s.
Existentialism = JP,  what ARE you lookin' at?
Feminism = close your eyes and aim your gun, Simone.


But it is a good 10 minute lesson.

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 23rd, 2018 at 8:40am: Spirituality is a word without tangible meaning. Its a conundrum. First you have to "believe" it before you can give it meaning. But then you have to examine what belief means to you. I don't dish out belief on anything to do with esoteric knowledge of reality. It is a childish concept. Therefore Existentialism is childish?

You are off on a tangent. It is childish to believe that someone experiences a different reality. The average claim from those of the big three religions, is that only they know reality, and that all others are lost in illusion. Its a lie. Many knew age spiritualists claim the same sort of nonsense. There is only one reality and no one can claim secret or esoteric knowledge of it. Those who do are either the gullible, or the charlatans attempting to bamboozle them.

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t.

I have no idea what spiritual means. As soon as someone mentions "spiritual" I know I'm talking to someone that does not know how to express themselves beyond "awesome, man!"

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 20^th, 2018 at 10:26am:

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. Indeed, these are philosophical concepts.

True. Plato deals with these topics specifically.

That said, Plato was spiritual, in a way.

Setanta wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 12:01am:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25th, 2018 at 1:14pm: John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t. I have no idea what spiritual means. As soon as someone mentions "spiritual" I know I'm talking to someone that does not know how to express themselves beyond "awesome, man!"

The words 'beauty' and 'spirtual' have a lot in common. They describe feelings that uplift us, beyond the mundane.

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Jan 26th, 2018 at 12:01am: BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25th, 2018 at 1:14pm: John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t. I have no idea what spiritual means. As soon as someone mentions "spiritual" I know I'm talking to someone that does not know how to express themselves beyond "awesome, man!" The words 'beauty' and 'spirtual' have a lot in common. They describe feelings that uplift us, beyond the mundane.

I can appreciate beauty and wonder but I still have no idea what "spiritual" means. I've been in discussions and had people say things like "that is so spiritual" and I have no idea of what is in their heads.

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 12:13pm:

Setanta wrote on Jan 26th, 2018 at 12:01am: BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25th, 2018 at 1:14pm: John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t. I have no idea what spiritual means. As soon as someone mentions "spiritual" I know I'm talking to someone that does not know how to express themselves beyond "awesome, man!" The words 'beauty' and 'spirtual' have a lot in common. They describe feelings that uplift us, beyond the mundane.

When I was a young armourer getting in on the EOD work I felt that as the shock wave from one of our detonations past by.  :) :) :)


It is literally what ever blows your hair back I suppose.

Setanta wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 11:27pm:

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 26th, 2018 at 12:13pm: Setanta wrote on Jan 26th, 2018 at 12:01am: BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25th, 2018 at 1:14pm: John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t. I have no idea what spiritual means. As soon as someone mentions "spiritual" I know I'm talking to someone that does not know how to express themselves beyond "awesome, man!" The words 'beauty' and 'spirtual' have a lot in common. They describe feelings that uplift us, beyond the mundane. I can appreciate beauty and wonder bu t I still have no idea what "spiritual" means. I've been in discussions and had people say things like "that is so spiritual" and I have no idea of what is in their heads.

Probably some new age fool in need of meaning.
İt's debatable if modern and post modernhuman human beings can cognise or experience the spiritual. The reduction to the material, which begins a few hundred years ago, has become the norm. İt's now so instantiated that it's debatable if it can ever be experienced by moderns. The reduction to the material is something quite new in the grand scheme of human existence. Even the first scientists that emerged thought that their discoveries were connected to the divine in some way. Eventually, all spiritual views were diminished and we were left with nothing but the material.

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25^th, 2018 at 1:14pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t.

They probably are scumbags, but you're conflating morality with spirituality. İs morality and spirituality connected?

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jan 27^th, 2018 at 7:21am:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25th, 2018 at 1:14pm: John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t. They probably are scumbags, but you're conflating morality with spirituality. İs morality and spirituality connected?

If you look at the fundamentally religious types, definitely not.

Raven wrote on Nov 6^th, 2017 at 10:02pm:

Jasin wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 9:58pm: Atheists are just the Anti-Religion 'hitmen' of the Science community. Maybe but never hear of an atheist running into a large crowd and yelling "SCIENCE" before blowing themselves up. Or blowing up an abortion clinic.

;D ;D ;D

Setanta wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 11:27pm:

I can appreciate beauty and wonder but I still have no idea what "spiritual" means. I've been in discussions and had people say things like "that is so spiritual" and I have no idea of what is in their heads.

Good point.
the dictionary definition is

Quote:

1 Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things.       1.1 Having a relationship based on a profound level of mental or emotional communion.       1.2 (of a person) not concerned with material values or pursuits. 2 Relating to religion or religious belief.

For me none of these definitions accurately describes the modern usage of the word.

I found this definition in the Huffington Post


Quote:

Being a spiritual person is synonymous with being a person whose highest priority is to be loving to yourself and others. A spiritual person cares about people, animals and the planet. A spiritual person knows that we are all One, and consciously attempts to honor this Oneness. A spiritual person is a kind person.

My own definition of popular spirituality is those who believe in supernatural new age nonsense.

So it seems there are many diverse definitions of spirituality

Setanta wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 11:27pm:

Nom de Plume wrote on Jan 26th, 2018 at 12:13pm: Setanta wrote on Jan 26th, 2018 at 12:01am: BigOl64 wrote on Jan 25th, 2018 at 1:14pm: John_Taverner wrote on Jan 17th, 2018 at 11:28am: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 7th, 2017 at 10:56am: capitosinora wrote on Nov 6th, 2017 at 10:12am: spiritual ideals such as Truth, Beauty, Justice, and Love. All those "ideals" are actually secular and none need the intervention of a deity. Spiritual doesn't necessary involve deities. And not everyone wants to be or is in fact is spiritual. There are strongly religious people all over this planet who are truly vile human beings, are they spiritual or are they just scumbags in need of a good kicking? To say atheists are not spiritual and implying that religious types are, is just a nonsense and needs to be ignored as total horse sh1t. I have no idea what spiritual means. As soon as someone mentions "spiritual" I know I'm talking to someone that does not know how to express themselves beyond "awesome, man!" The words 'beauty' and 'spirtual' have a lot in common. They describe feelings that uplift us, beyond the mundane. I can appreciate beauty and wonder but I still have no idea what "spiritual" means. I've been in discussions and had people say things like "that is so spiritual" and I have no idea of what is in their heads.

If I contemplate physics, having read widely on the topic, I find myself in a state of awe..., uplifted, that is beyond the mundane... It is spiritual.

I dont understand what this new age guff is all about. It doesn't ring true, to my mind... just an extention upon fairies and the like. It is definitely not spiritual... it is very much an artificial construct to be dismissed.

Setanta wrote on Jan 26^th, 2018 at 11:27pm:

I can appreciate beauty and wonder but I still have no idea what "spiritual" means. I've been in discussions and had people say things like "that is so spiritual" and I have no idea of what is in their heads.

You know it when you experience it. It gives you a tingle down the spine. Atheists and Theists both experience these moments.

Spiritual and Religious are as different as mind and brain. One is the physical organ, and the second is related to our cognitive, conscious experience and self sentience as human beings.

Epiphany is another word that is not necessarily religious. It just means a moment of sudden and great revelation, realization and a sense of great clarity. (again a spine tingling moment in some cases)

I also agree with what Nom de Plume posted.

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 29^th, 2018 at 1:02pm:

Setanta wrote on Jan 26th, 2018 at 11:27pm: I can appreciate beauty and wonder but I still have no idea what "spiritual" means. I've been in discussions and had people say things like "that is so spiritual" and I have no idea of what is in their heads. You know it when you experience it. It gives you a tingle down the spine. Atheists and Theists both experience these moments. Spiritual and Religious are as different as mind and brain. One is the physical organ, and the second is related to our cognitive, conscious experience and self sentience as human beings. Epiphany is another word that is not necessarily religious. It just means a moment of sudden and great revelation, realization and a sense of great clarity. (again a spine tingling moment in some cases) I also agree with what Nom de Plume posted.

If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted.

issuevoter wrote on Jan 29^th, 2018 at 8:37pm:

If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted.

There is not a lot of difference between the religious and the non-religious. We are all homo sapiens sapiens. We have the same basic model of brain, but choose to "wire" them up a little differently based on our experiences and paradigms.

We all have moments of enlightenment, but categorize them differently. I've spoken to a few converts from (evangelical)  Christianity. They still continue to hear voices even after they realise that it's all a self perpetuated illusion.

No human mind is  100% rational.  


(inadvertent edit, sorry)

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2018 at 2:31pm:

issuevoter wrote on Jan 29th, 2018 at 8:37pm: If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted. There is not a lot of difference between the religious and the non-religious. We are all homo sapiens sapiens. We have the same basic model of brain, but choose to "wire" them up a little differently based on our experiences and paradigms. We all have moments of enlightenment, but categorize them differently. I've spoken to a few converts from (evangelical)  Christianity. They still continue to hear voices even after they realise that it's all a self perpetuated illusion. No human mind is  100% rational.

We do not "choose" to be wired differently. I've felt and understand awe, wonder, beauty, etc. I do not and have never felt what spirituality is. The other things I've mentioned are easy to describe and all people seem to get it. Spirituality I have never understood. I was educated in the private Catholic system and still do not understand spirituality as much as they tried to explain. It's an anathema to me, I could not choose it if I tried.

We may not be 100% rational, we have emotions, but isn't being as rational as possible a better goal than some "spirituality" that makes no sense at all?

I see spirituality as a "feeling" some people have. Your feelings are not my concern.

Setanta wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2018 at 11:19pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 2:31pm: issuevoter wrote on Jan 29th, 2018 at 8:37pm: If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted. There is not a lot of difference between the religious and the non-religious. We are all homo sapiens sapiens. We have the same basic model of brain, but choose to "wire" them up a little differently based on our experiences and paradigms. We all have moments of enlightenment, but categorize them differently. I've spoken to a few converts from (evangelical)  Christianity. They still continue to hear voices even after they realise that it's all a self perpetuated illusion. No human mind is  100% rational.   We do not "choose" to be wired differently. I've felt and understand awe, wonder, beauty, etc. I do not and have never felt what spirituality is. The other things I've mentioned are easy to describe and all people seem to get it. Spirituality I have never understood. I was educated in the private Catholic system and still do not understand spirituality as much as they tried to explain. It's an anathema to me, I could not choose it if I tried. We may not be 100% rational, we have emotions, but isn't being as rational as possible a better goal than some "spirituality" that makes no sense at all? I see spirituality as a "feeling" some people have. Your feelings are not my concern.

I challenge you to define beauty, given that you 'know' what it is.

Nom de Plume wrote on Feb 4^th, 2018 at 1:25am:

Setanta wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:19pm: John_Taverner wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 2:31pm: issuevoter wrote on Jan 29th, 2018 at 8:37pm: If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted. There is not a lot of difference between the religious and the non-religious. We are all homo sapiens sapiens. We have the same basic model of brain, but choose to "wire" them up a little differently based on our experiences and paradigms. We all have moments of enlightenment, but categorize them differently. I've spoken to a few converts from (evangelical)  Christianity. They still continue to hear voices even after they realise that it's all a self perpetuated illusion. No human mind is  100% rational.   We do not "choose" to be wired differently. I've felt and understand awe, wonder, beauty, etc. I do not and have never felt what spirituality is. The other things I've mentioned are easy to describe and all people seem to get it. Spirituality I have never understood. I was educated in the private Catholic system and still do not understand spirituality as much as they tried to explain. It's an anathema to me, I could not choose it if I tried. We may not be 100% rational, we have emotions, but isn't being as rational as possible a better goal than some "spirituality" that makes no sense at all? I see spirituality as a "feeling" some people have. Your feelings are not my concern. I challenge you to define beauty, given that you 'know' what it is.

Everyone knows what it is for themselves. It may not be the same for all but I would say it's something that brings pleasure in seeing. A positive emotional response to what one sees. Something that can even bring a sense of awe. A sense of perfection in the sight of something. Something you would never tire of looking at. Aesthetically pleasing.
I know what I find beautiful, you know what you do.

I'm sure everyone understands beauty, not everyone understands or even cares about spirituality because it doesn't compute for them, it's an empty meaningless word. Can you explain it?

Spirituality is something that resonates with the soul.  An energy felt deeply within our core.  With that can come a deep sense of meaning.

It's not about religion nor is it about any deity so you can be spiritual without being religious.  It creates an individual sense of peace and purpose and a connection to the things around us.

It has nothing to do with Atheism nor Theism.

Heard someone say today "horses are so spiritual." She's also a wicca. :o

Setanta wrote on Feb 4^th, 2018 at 1:44am:

Nom de Plume wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:25am: Setanta wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:19pm: John_Taverner wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 2:31pm: issuevoter wrote on Jan 29th, 2018 at 8:37pm: If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted. There is not a lot of difference between the religious and the non-religious. We are all homo sapiens sapiens. We have the same basic model of brain, but choose to "wire" them up a little differently based on our experiences and paradigms. We all have moments of enlightenment, but categorize them differently. I've spoken to a few converts from (evangelical)  Christianity. They still continue to hear voices even after they realise that it's all a self perpetuated illusion. No human mind is  100% rational.   We do not "choose" to be wired differently. I've felt and understand awe, wonder, beauty, etc. I do not and have never felt what spirituality is. The other things I've mentioned are easy to describe and all people seem to get it. Spirituality I have never understood. I was educated in the private Catholic system and still do not understand spirituality as much as they tried to explain. It's an anathema to me, I could not choose it if I tried. We may not be 100% rational, we have emotions, but isn't being as rational as possible a better goal than some "spirituality" that makes no sense at all? I see spirituality as a "feeling" some people have. Your feelings are not my concern. I challenge you to define beauty, given that you 'know' what it is. Everyone knows what it is for themselves. It may not be the same for all but I would say it's something that brings pleasure in seeing. A positive emotional response to what one sees. Something that can even bring a sense of awe. A sense of perfection in the sight of something. Something you would never tire of looking at. Aesthetically pleasing. I know what I find beautiful, you know what you do. I'm sure everyone understands beauty, not everyone understands or even cares about spirituality because it doesn't compute for them, it's an empty meaningless word. Can you explain it?

It is not my role to explain what 'beauty' is. I am the questioner. The question has been asked of you, by me. Your role is to answer it. Expressing your confidence on 'everyone's' understanding of 'beauty', doesn't answer the question!

I'm not even convinced that it is a universal concept as you have implied with your use of the word 'everyone'. It is a learned concept. I assume you are an Empiricist and that you have learnt from others what beauty, so, share with the forum, your answer to the question. 

Nom de Plume wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 9:26pm:

Setanta wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:44am: Nom de Plume wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:25am: Setanta wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:19pm: John_Taverner wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 2:31pm: issuevoter wrote on Jan 29th, 2018 at 8:37pm: If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted. There is not a lot of difference between the religious and the non-religious. We are all homo sapiens sapiens. We have the same basic model of brain, but choose to "wire" them up a little differently based on our experiences and paradigms. We all have moments of enlightenment, but categorize them differently. I've spoken to a few converts from (evangelical)  Christianity. They still continue to hear voices even after they realise that it's all a self perpetuated illusion. No human mind is  100% rational.   We do not "choose" to be wired differently. I've felt and understand awe, wonder, beauty, etc. I do not and have never felt what spirituality is. The other things I've mentioned are easy to describe and all people seem to get it. Spirituality I have never understood. I was educated in the private Catholic system and still do not understand spirituality as much as they tried to explain. It's an anathema to me, I could not choose it if I tried. We may not be 100% rational, we have emotions, but isn't being as rational as possible a better goal than some "spirituality" that makes no sense at all? I see spirituality as a "feeling" some people have. Your feelings are not my concern. I challenge you to define beauty, given that you 'know' what it is. Everyone knows what it is for themselves. It may not be the same for all but I would say it's something that brings pleasure in seeing. A positive emotional response to what one sees. Something that can even bring a sense of awe. A sense of perfection in the sight of something. Something you would never tire of looking at. Aesthetically pleasing. I know what I find beautiful, you know what you do. I'm sure everyone understands beauty, not everyone understands or even cares about spirituality because it doesn't compute for them, it's an empty meaningless word. Can you explain it? It is not my role to explain what 'beauty' is. I am the questioner. The question has been asked of you, by me. Your role is to answer it. Expressing your confidence on 'everyone's' understanding of 'beauty', doesn't answer the question! I'm not even convinced that it is a universal concept as you have implied with your use of the word 'everyone'. It is a learned concept. I assume you are an Empiricist and that you have learnt from others what beauty, so, share with the forum, your answer to the question.

Good.  So answer the questions asked of you here.  It is your 'job' to do that.

Link.

Setanta wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 6:21pm:

Heard someone say today "horses are so spiritual." She's also a wicca. :o

You want to hear something really ridiculous, Raven is an ordained minister.

Aussie wrote on Feb 6^th, 2018 at 9:43pm:

Nom de Plume wrote on Feb 6th, 2018 at 9:26pm: Setanta wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:44am: Nom de Plume wrote on Feb 4th, 2018 at 1:25am: Setanta wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 11:19pm: John_Taverner wrote on Feb 3rd, 2018 at 2:31pm: issuevoter wrote on Jan 29th, 2018 at 8:37pm: If you hang around this forum long enough, you will find people you once thought quite objective coming out with drivel like that highlighted. There is not a lot of difference between the religious and the non-religious. We are all homo sapiens sapiens. We have the same basic model of brain, but choose to "wire" them up a little differently based on our experiences and paradigms. We all have moments of enlightenment, but categorize them differently. I've spoken to a few converts from (evangelical)  Christianity. They still continue to hear voices even after they realise that it's all a self perpetuated illusion. No human mind is  100% rational.   We do not "choose" to be wired differently. I've felt and understand awe, wonder, beauty, etc. I do not and have never felt what spirituality is. The other things I've mentioned are easy to describe and all people seem to get it. Spirituality I have never understood. I was educated in the private Catholic system and still do not understand spirituality as much as they tried to explain. It's an anathema to me, I could not choose it if I tried. We may not be 100% rational, we have emotions, but isn't being as rational as possible a better goal than some "spirituality" that makes no sense at all? I see spirituality as a "feeling" some people have. Your feelings are not my concern. I challenge you to define beauty, given that you 'know' what it is. Everyone knows what it is for themselves. It may not be the same for all but I would say it's something that brings pleasure in seeing. A positive emotional response to what one sees. Something that can even bring a sense of awe. A sense of perfection in the sight of something. Something you would never tire of looking at. Aesthetically pleasing. I know what I find beautiful, you know what you do. I'm sure everyone understands beauty, not everyone understands or even cares about spirituality because it doesn't compute for them, it's an empty meaningless word. Can you explain it? It is not my role to explain what 'beauty' is. I am the questioner. The question has been asked of you, by me. Your role is to answer it. Expressing your confidence on 'everyone's' understanding of 'beauty', doesn't answer the question! I'm not even convinced that it is a universal concept as you have implied with your use of the word 'everyone'. It is a learned concept. I assume you are an Empiricist and that you have learnt from others what beauty, so, share with the forum, your answer to the question.  Good.  So answer the questions asked of you here.  It is your 'job' to do that. Link.

I'm sure I said more than 'everyone understands  beauty'.

Black Orchid wrote on Feb 4^th, 2018 at 2:13pm:

Spirituality is something that resonates with the soul.  An energy felt deeply within our core.  With that can come a deep sense of meaning. It's not about religion nor is it about any deity so you can be spiritual without being religious.  It creates an individual sense of peace and purpose and a connection to the things around us. It has nothing to do with Atheism nor Theism.

Yes. Awesome post. It comes from our "core" or our mind, a bit like love.  When it comes to these mind phenomena, rationality doesn't really apply.

In the same way, if you love someone, you can attempt to rationalise it in terms of physical appearance, similar lines of thought etc, but you never get close to defining it in rational terms, and why would you even attempt to?   

Love, spirituality, beauty, awe, wonder.  In the same way, you can attempt to define them in terms of chemical reactions, but all the "machine code" in the world cannot describe art.

Being 100% rational is useful for science and mathematics, but that's about all.  (and maybe not even for science) For the rest, being 100% human has a distinct advantage in life.

Setanta wrote on Feb 7^th, 2018 at 6:30am:

I'm sure I said more than 'everyone understands  beauty'.

Beauty is that which pleases the aesthetic senses of the mind.  (how's that?)

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 9^th, 2018 at 11:07am:

Setanta wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 6:30am: I'm sure I said more than 'everyone understands  beauty'. Beauty is that which pleases the aesthetic senses of the mind.  (how's that?)

That's OK. And the feeling of "love" may be influenced by the possibility of the offspring.

I wonder if there has been any studies done about the offspring of couples who were or weren't in love.
And if there is any real difference between love and lust.

I mean, regarding the characteristics of the child. Personally, the children of parents who I could only imagine awkwardly going through the motions during sex seem to be a little different and a little less apt.

Amadd wrote on Feb 13^th, 2018 at 3:02am:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 9th, 2018 at 11:07am: Setanta wrote on Feb 7th, 2018 at 6:30am: I'm sure I said more than 'everyone understands  beauty'. Beauty is that which pleases the aesthetic senses of the mind.  (how's that?) That's OK. And the feeling of "love" may be influenced by the possibility of the offspring. I wonder if there has been any studies done about the offspring of couples who were or weren't in love. And if there is any real difference between love and lust. I mean, regarding the characteristics of the child. Personally, the children of parents who I could only imagine awkwardly going through the motions during sex seem to be a little different and a little less apt.

Human nature is one of neurosis. That does not necessarily imply a mental disorder. Sex and gender are clouded in neurosis, just look Islam. Violence is often associated with sexual repression. With offspring, somehow the life force is going to muddle through whatever is going on in the  minds of the parents. Human society tries to regulate and civilise our lives, and the degree to which it is successful in the individual is a complex set of circumstances. The best a couple can do is provide a nurturing environment while the offspring are in their formative years. That includes a mentally stimulating environment surrounded with knowledge, and identifying any interest and encouraging the child to pursue their interest.

However, as is often the case, the parents just want little clones of themselves including their foibles and misconceptions.

Religion had it's place, it was one of mankind's earliest attempts at explaining the world around them. 

Why do the tides come in and go out?  God did it.
Why do I get sick? God is punishing me.
What are these bright flashes in the rain clouds? Angry Gods.
Why are you raping your younger male members of the Tribe? Our beliefs say we have to put our seed in them for them to have a seed to put into a woman.

etc etc

We've grown past there and understand things like microbiology, gravity, the weather and the reproductive system and the more we understand the less we need "God did it".

This is a very hard concept for many religious people to understand especially those who've been taught from a young age not to question the religious texts and belief, even in the face of a total lack of evidence, aka Faith, is the most important thing.  The harder something is to believe and yet you still believe, the greater your faith.

It is a total waste of time and energy to try to explain why one is an Atheist or simply a person who sees the natural world and doesn't see God in it to these people.

On the flip side, for those who don't think God simply did everything and understand what it has taken over the countless generations of those who came before them, what they did or didn't do, if they died or survived for the individual to be alive, that is something great in itself.

Coupled with that the knowledge that this is all there is, this one life, this one chance to make a difference and lead a good life has an element of spirituality to it.  An understanding of how lucky one is to be here, how fragile and important life is and that this is it, it's not a mere stepping stone to be conned into a selfish set of "morals" in order to get entry into heaven, morals that have been corrupted by man from the word of Jesus or even the Profit Muhammad for example over and over throughout the centuries.

It's these people who value faith over what is clearly observable in the natural world who are the roadblocks to our future.  Be their minds predisposed to believing such nonsense as all the many conspiracies out there or finding it all too easy to dismiss the dangers of climate change because it will only bring us closer to the end of days and entry into heaven. 

They claim the moral high ground but are often trampled by their high horse.

** Warning, far overreaching generalisations expressed above! **

SadKangaroo wrote on Feb 14^th, 2018 at 3:13pm:

Coupled with that the knowledge that this is all there is, this one life, this one chance to make a difference and lead a good life has an element of spirituality to it.  An understanding of how lucky one is to be here, how fragile and important life is and that this is it, it's not a mere stepping stone to be conned into a selfish set of "morals" in order to get entry into heaven, morals that have been corrupted by man from the word of Jesus or even the Profit Muhammad for example over and over throughout the centuries.

Some interesting points, and I agree with you. Getting the most out of life and spirituality are closely entwined.

Last year, I helped accomplish something that nobody has ever done before, and the feeling was close to what I think of as spiritual.  It was something that will benefit millions of people, and one of the proudest moments in my life. (but I'm not at liberty to discuss it)

Psychotherapy or the clergy? C.G.Jung

Psychotherapy or the clergy? C.G.Jung
https://carljungdepthpsychologysite.blog/2020/02/11/psychotherapists-or-the-clergy-carl-jung/#.YSL2sex_W9c

Section 509

"It is safe to say that every one of them fell ill because he had lost what every living religion have given to their followers . . ."

Well, that's BS from a religious fanatic right there, and I am not talking about the existence of God. I'm talking about a spurious opinion stated as if it were fact. IMHO Jung had a esoteric-knowledge fixation. Secret juju explains all. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders should not read this as it challenges the Dreamtime Serpent belief.

issuevoter wrote on Aug 23^rd, 2021 at 12:40pm:

"It is safe to say that every one of them fell ill because he had lost what every living religion have given to their followers . . ." Well, that's BS from a religious fanatic right there, and I am not talking about the existence of God. I'm talking about a spurious opinion stated as if it were fact. IMHO Jung had a esoteric-knowledge fixation. Secret juju explains all. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders should not read this as it challenges the Dreamtime Serpent belief.

He stated the facts of his experience. It is not a longer paper, I posted one short section of it. I suggest you read a bit more of it so you don't come up with things like, "IMHO Jung had a esoteric-knowledge fixation" - that's just too glib and factually wrong.

audio
https://johnanderson.net.au/podcasts/direct-with-john-lennox/


Video
https://johnanderson.net.au/direct-john-lennox/

Spirituality in its physical form is nothing more than 'Fashion'.
Hence the move from the fig-leaf non-spirituality of nudity via Adam & Eve symbolism.

Take alternative Westerners who think they are spiritually superior (like Hippies) by the way they fashionably present themselves unlike someone in a Power-Suit of a Stock Exchange.
Of how Aboriginals seek spiritual empowerment via their fashions, as seen a lot these days - coming through in Sports attire.

Fashion is a spiritual expression of oneself and who that person is.
Blue is the spiritual colour of Medicine.
White is for Politics
Black is for Maths, etc, etc.

Talking in 'wisdom' words like American Indians or Aboriginals and other First Nations for something that has been lost of let go of, is not really spiritual.

Fashion is Spirituality and hence also why Gays use Fashion during their parades to express their spiritual freedom from others.

Atheism was primarily an Anti-Religious rebellion empowerment by people who were from a Scientific point of view. Atheists are Anti-Religious people who are yet to find their own identity of what to be 'Pro' about... basically, yet to state they are Science-only.

I don't know.
At least athiests have taken a position



Quote:

' ...........  Atheist One who denies the existence of God, or of a supreme intelligent being. A godless man; one who disregards his duty to God. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.  .........

Leader of Military = Emperor
Leader of Politics = President
Leader of Religion = God
etc

Jasin wrote on Nov 13^th, 2021 at 9:03pm:

Leader of Military = Emperor Leader of Politics = President Leader of Religion = God etc

Leader of kingdom = king

Leader of empire = emperor

Leader of country = ...

A King is a Master of Ceremony and hence why the Court Jester is his mocking bird.
Corrupt Kings think they are Military leaders.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 13^th, 2021 at 8:41pm:

I don't know. At least athiests have taken a position Quote: ' ...........  Atheist One who denies the existence of God, or of a supreme intelligent being. A godless man; one who disregards his duty to God. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.  .........

Not sure where you got your definitions from but they seem to be a bit biased.
I think the following definition from Google Dictionary is far more accurate


Quote:

a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

It's interesting that Theists always seem to frame the definition of an Atheist purely as a reflection of their own beliefs.

My own view is of a lack of belief in God or gods.

Its all human bullsh*t starting with lies like those of Abraham. When someone claims knowledge of Cosmic truth, don't waste your time on them. Nod and smile, and check there are no sharp instruments within their reach.

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 15^th, 2021 at 11:16am:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 13th, 2021 at 8:41pm: I don't know. At least athiests have taken a position Quote: ' ...........  Atheist One who denies the existence of God, or of a supreme intelligent being. A godless man; one who disregards his duty to God. One who disbelieves or denies the existence of a God, or supreme intelligent Being.  ......... Not sure where you got your definitions from but they seem to be a bit biased. I think the following definition from Google Dictionary is far more accurate [quote]a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

It's interesting that Theists always seem to frame the definition of an Atheist purely as a reflection of their own beliefs.

My own view is of a lack of belief in God or gods.
[/quote]


Yes, and if you believe God does not exist, that's perfectly ........ reasonable.
You have resolutely honestly decided.
You have taken a stance.

If someone believes 'there is no proof of God, therefore I disbelieve' .........  they lack conviction.
They are saying '...well, maybe so, maybe not ....'

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 15^th, 2021 at 8:50pm:

Yes, and if you believe God does not exist, that's perfectly ........ reasonable. You have resolutely honestly decided. You have taken a stance. If someone believes 'there is no proof of God, therefore I disbelieve' .........  they lack conviction. They are saying '...well, maybe so, maybe not ....'

Why does there need to be a "stance" or "conviction"? It's only the Theist that seems to require this.
I see no evidence of God and I see plenty of evidence that religion is a human construct. All that means is that my life has a different focus.

Atheism is the null hypothesis. We are all born Atheists and then our parents/community indoctrinate us with the particular brand of religion they follow.
I simply haven't undergone that indoctrination

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 12:14pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 8:50pm: Yes, and if you believe God does not exist, that's perfectly ........ reasonable. You have resolutely honestly decided. You have taken a stance. If someone believes 'there is no proof of God, therefore I disbelieve' .........  they lack conviction. They are saying '...well, maybe so, maybe not ....' Why does there need to be a "stance" or "conviction"? It's only the Theist that seems to require this. I see no evidence of God and I see plenty of evidence that religion is a human construct. All that means is that my life has a different focus. Atheism is the null hypothesis. We are all born Atheists and then our parents/community indoctrinate us with the particular brand of religion they follow. I simply haven't undergone that indoctrination

I am not an Atheist, but what God-freaks cannot recognise is that there are ways to look at reality that are outside the dichotomy in which they like to reduce reality. The dichotomy tidies everything up for them, and allows their smugness.

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 12:14pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 8:50pm: Yes, and if you believe God does not exist, that's perfectly ........ reasonable. You have resolutely honestly decided. You have taken a stance. If someone believes 'there is no proof of God, therefore I disbelieve' .........  they lack conviction. They are saying '...well, maybe so, maybe not ....' Why does there need to be a "stance" or "conviction"? It's only the Theist that seems to require this. I see no evidence of God and I see plenty of evidence that religion is a human construct. All that means is that my life has a different focus. Atheism is the null hypothesis. We are all born Atheists and then our parents/community indoctrinate us with the particular brand of religion they follow. I simply haven't undergone that indoctrination

So you're sort of humming and hawing. A bit whimsical. Have not decided.

Atheism is a Not-For-Prophet organisation

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 16^th, 2021 at 6:09pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 12:14pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 8:50pm: Yes, and if you believe God does not exist, that's perfectly ........ reasonable. You have resolutely honestly decided. You have taken a stance. If someone believes 'there is no proof of God, therefore I disbelieve' .........  they lack conviction. They are saying '...well, maybe so, maybe not ....' Why does there need to be a "stance" or "conviction"? It's only the Theist that seems to require this. I see no evidence of God and I see plenty of evidence that religion is a human construct. All that means is that my life has a different focus. Atheism is the null hypothesis. We are all born Atheists and then our parents/community indoctrinate us with the particular brand of religion they follow. I simply haven't undergone that indoctrination So you're sort of humming and hawing. A bit whimsical. Have not decided.

There you go again, assuming a false dichotomy.

Try comparing it to Flat Earthers. They would probably label me an Anti Flat Earther. In truth the concept of a Flat Earth is so absurd that it isn't a debate as far as I'm concerned. The only interest I take in it is amusement that people could think that way.
It's the same with religion.

God Freaks, are no different to those who revere saints, prophet, and various other so-called holy ones. They all claim esoteric knowledge of cosmic truth, this is the credential for their belief, but instead of sharing these fundamentals, they prefer personality worship, which is nothing more than looking for a father figure. It is simpler that way too, because they cannot actually cite esoteric knowledge. If they could, it would be far more important than all the prophets and messiahs put together.

Celebrities are the 'holy ones' of the Media.

The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 18^th, 2021 at 12:21pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 6:09pm: The_Barnacle wrote on Nov 16th, 2021 at 12:14pm: Sprintcyclist wrote on Nov 15th, 2021 at 8:50pm: Yes, and if you believe God does not exist, that's perfectly ........ reasonable. You have resolutely honestly decided. You have taken a stance. If someone believes 'there is no proof of God, therefore I disbelieve' .........  they lack conviction. They are saying '...well, maybe so, maybe not ....' Why does there need to be a "stance" or "conviction"? It's only the Theist that seems to require this. I see no evidence of God and I see plenty of evidence that religion is a human construct. All that means is that my life has a different focus. Atheism is the null hypothesis. We are all born Atheists and then our parents/community indoctrinate us with the particular brand of religion they follow. I simply haven't undergone that indoctrination So you're sort of humming and hawing. A bit whimsical. Have not decided. There you go again, assuming a false dichotomy. Try comparing it to Flat Earthers. They would probably label me an Anti Flat Earther. In truth the concept of a Flat Earth is so absurd that it isn't a debate as far as I'm concerned. The only interest I take in it is amusement that people could think that way. It's the same with religion.

So, do you think the earth is flat or do you not ?

Going by Quantum Mechanics - the Universe is 'Flat'.

This Topic was moved here from Atheism by freediver.