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General Discussion >> General Board >> Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
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Message started by freediver on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:12am

Title: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:12am
QLD already has a hybrid form of compulsory/optional voting, which causes all sorts of problems:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

Now Campbell Newman wants to make it completely optional. My objections are:

1) Voting is an irrational act, given the personal effort required and the almost certainty that your effort will make no difference to your life (or anyone else's).  If you make it optional, only irrational people vote. Rational people will find more 'productive' uses for their Saturday morning.

2) Voting in a modern democracy should be considered a responsibility, not a right.

3) Making voting optional changes the nature of the political debate. It means politicians become motivational speakers rather than policy debaters. This is because it is more important to preach to the converted than target undecided voters, because you have to get your supporters to turn up and vote. Fear is the biggest motivator, and the politics of fear (of the other party) become more important than rational criticism. Our elections would turn into circuses, like US elections.

PM hits back at Qld compulsory voting plan

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/qld-could-scrap-compulsory-voting/story-fn3dxiwe-1226546911297

THE Prime Minister has used Twitter to attack the Newman government's bid to ask Queenslanders whether compulsory voting should be scrapped for state elections.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has urged her Twitter followers to fight the Newman government's plan.

"Don't let the Liberals make our democracy the plaything of cashed-up interest groups," she posted.

Compulsory voting could be scrapped in Queensland state elections under a Newman government plan to overhaul electoral laws.

Attorney-General Jarrod Bleijie has released a discussion paper on possible reforms to be put out for public consultation.

The paper lists the pros and cons of abolishing compulsory voting and highlights other possible reforms, including changes to political donations, how-to-vote cards and political advertising.

It quotes the report of a Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters on the 1996 federal election that recommended compulsory voting be abolished so Australia could be considered "a mature democracy".

The report argued that voting could only be considered a 'right' if people could exercise a 'right' not to vote.

Voting in Queensland state elections has been compulsory since 1915.

Mr Bleijie says the discussion paper aims to make the government more accountable.

"Fair and effective electoral laws are central to the promotion of participation in our democracy," he said in a statement on Thursday.

"The options in the discussion paper are not intended to be exhaustive and the government is after a variety of opinions and ideas."

The submission period is open until March 1.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by aquascoot on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:49am
great man campbell.

freeing up one extra saturday for me to go fishing

gee, i love that bloke.

you will too when he's in the lodge. ;) ;)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:11pm
The only reason im against it is because newman wants it - he has to be up to something.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Peter Freedman on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.


That is a very interesting point Peter, one that may well sink this legislation.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by thelastnail on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 1:50pm
I reckon it's a great idea for the federal as well as the state as it would save me the bother to vote for something you have no control over.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:21pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:11pm:
The only reason im against it is because newman wants it - he has to be up to something.

SOB


Newman wants it because people struggling to survive traditionally vote labor ... come voting day given the option of voting or going to work, they'll work. This can be a huge advantage to the libs especially in the seats where the winner is decided by only a handful of votes.

My other concern is if its not compulsary, some bosses will not let workers take a half hour to go and vote. I remember I was working for a guy, election day came around and in the end I had to tell him that he would have to pay the fine .... he kept saying finish this first, then do that before you go and so on ... I made it to the polling booth 15 mins before they closed.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:26pm
Soon you will be able to vote online and half the voters will still think fuggit can't be bothered.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by aquascoot on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:30pm
actually i hope he extends it along proper business principles.
the most productive people in the state obviously are the biggest shareholders in qld pty ltd.

so farmers, businesses, sole traders get 1 vote for each $50,000 of turnover.

public servants , as net, liabilities to qld pty ltd, get to vote but their votes are then secretly reversed as those on the minus side of the ledger, of course, score a negative vote.

those not working, children and retirees dont count as a negative vote or a positive vote but get to bath in the benevolence of our great leader.(aka  CEO qld pty ltd)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by hadrian_now on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:46pm
Unless voting is completely optional then any claim to be called a democracy is a farce.
Labor demands that it should be compulsory because in normal circumstances it knows its support base will not bother to vote. It is only by dragooning the people to the booths that it feels it will get a reasonable vote, which is very similar to its views on compulsory unionism.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:54pm

Quote:
Unless voting is completely optional then any claim to be called a democracy is a farce.


Oh look, another person who can't tell the difference between democracy and freedom.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Swagman on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:58pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.


That's not true, I don't drink martinis.... :D

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:59pm

Swagman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:58pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.


That's not true, I don't drink martinis.... :D


your maid drinks them for you, right!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Peter Freedman on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:03pm
Well, you are on a hallucinogenic substance then - something must explain your problems.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Swagman on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:05pm


Nope schooie of new normally. :)


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:45pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:12am:
QLD already has a hybrid form of compulsory/optional voting, which causes all sorts of problems:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

Now Campbell Newman wants to make it completely optional. My objections are:

1) Voting is an irrational act, given the personal effort required and the almost certainty that your effort will make no difference to your life (or anyone else's).  If you make it optional, only irrational people vote. Rational people will find more 'productive' uses for their Saturday morning.

2) Voting in a modern democracy should be considered a responsibility, not a right.

3) Making voting optional changes the nature of the political debate. It means politicians become motivational speakers rather than policy debaters. This is because it is more important to preach to the converted than target undecided voters, because you have to get your supporters to turn up and vote. Fear is the biggest motivator, and the politics of fear (of the other party) become more important than rational criticism. Our elections would turn into circuses, like US elections.

PM hits back at Qld compulsory voting plan

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/qld-could-scrap-compulsory-voting/story-fn3dxiwe-1226546911297

THE Prime Minister has used Twitter to attack the Newman government's bid to ask Queenslanders whether compulsory voting should be scrapped for state elections.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has urged her Twitter followers to fight the Newman government's plan.

"Don't let the Liberals make our democracy the plaything of cashed-up interest groups," she posted.

Compulsory voting could be scrapped in Queensland state elections under a Newman government plan to overhaul electoral laws.

Attorney-General Jarrod Bleijie has released a discussion paper on possible reforms to be put out for public consultation.

The paper lists the pros and cons of abolishing compulsory voting and highlights other possible reforms, including changes to political donations, how-to-vote cards and political advertising.

It quotes the report of a Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters on the 1996 federal election that recommended compulsory voting be abolished so Australia could be considered "a mature democracy".

The report argued that voting could only be considered a 'right' if people could exercise a 'right' not to vote.

Voting in Queensland state elections has been compulsory since 1915.

Mr Bleijie says the discussion paper aims to make the government more accountable.

"Fair and effective electoral laws are central to the promotion of participation in our democracy," he said in a statement on Thursday.

"The options in the discussion paper are not intended to be exhaustive and the government is after a variety of opinions and ideas."

The submission period is open until March 1.


sorry FD. that highlighted comment is just plain stupid. it is counter-intuitive and more like the kind of think SOB would say. voting is NOT irrational and I fail to see how a sober intelligent person could come to that conclusion.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:47pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.


well that is ever more twaddle than FD's first point. what utter crap.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:49pm

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.



The conservatives originally made voting manditory because they believed that workers would vote and the more affluent were much to lazy to bother when they could in general just buy the political results they wanted.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:49pm
I support compulsory voting as the responsibility of anyone living in a democracy. dont want to vote? dont get the benefits (welfare, services etc)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:50pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:12am:
QLD already has a hybrid form of compulsory/optional voting, which causes all sorts of problems:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

Now Campbell Newman wants to make it completely optional. My objections are:

1) Voting is an irrational act, given the personal effort required and the almost certainty that your effort will make no difference to your life (or anyone else's).  If you make it optional, only irrational people vote. Rational people will find more 'productive' uses for their Saturday morning.

2) Voting in a modern democracy should be considered a responsibility, not a right.

3) Making voting optional changes the nature of the political debate. It means politicians become motivational speakers rather than policy debaters. This is because it is more important to preach to the converted than target undecided voters, because you have to get your supporters to turn up and vote. Fear is the biggest motivator, and the politics of fear (of the other party) become more important than rational criticism. Our elections would turn into circuses, like US elections.

PM hits back at Qld compulsory voting plan

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/qld-could-scrap-compulsory-voting/story-fn3dxiwe-1226546911297

THE Prime Minister has used Twitter to attack the Newman government's bid to ask Queenslanders whether compulsory voting should be scrapped for state elections.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has urged her Twitter followers to fight the Newman government's plan.

"Don't let the Liberals make our democracy the plaything of cashed-up interest groups," she posted.

Compulsory voting could be scrapped in Queensland state elections under a Newman government plan to overhaul electoral laws.

Attorney-General Jarrod Bleijie has released a discussion paper on possible reforms to be put out for public consultation.

The paper lists the pros and cons of abolishing compulsory voting and highlights other possible reforms, including changes to political donations, how-to-vote cards and political advertising.

It quotes the report of a Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters on the 1996 federal election that recommended compulsory voting be abolished so Australia could be considered "a mature democracy".

The report argued that voting could only be considered a 'right' if people could exercise a 'right' not to vote.

Voting in Queensland state elections has been compulsory since 1915.

Mr Bleijie says the discussion paper aims to make the government more accountable.

"Fair and effective electoral laws are central to the promotion of participation in our democracy," he said in a statement on Thursday.

"The options in the discussion paper are not intended to be exhaustive and the government is after a variety of opinions and ideas."

The submission period is open until March 1.


sorry FD. that highlighted comment is just plain stupid. it is counter-intuitive and more like the kind of think SOB would say. voting is NOT irrational and I fail to see how a sober intelligent person could come to that conclusion.


Awww disagreed with him did you? Every time you do that you show us how young and uneducated you are.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 4:23pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:50pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:12am:
QLD already has a hybrid form of compulsory/optional voting, which causes all sorts of problems:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

Now Campbell Newman wants to make it completely optional. My objections are:

1) Voting is an irrational act, given the personal effort required and the almost certainty that your effort will make no difference to your life (or anyone else's).  If you make it optional, only irrational people vote. Rational people will find more 'productive' uses for their Saturday morning.

2) Voting in a modern democracy should be considered a responsibility, not a right.

3) Making voting optional changes the nature of the political debate. It means politicians become motivational speakers rather than policy debaters. This is because it is more important to preach to the converted than target undecided voters, because you have to get your supporters to turn up and vote. Fear is the biggest motivator, and the politics of fear (of the other party) become more important than rational criticism. Our elections would turn into circuses, like US elections.

PM hits back at Qld compulsory voting plan

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/qld-could-scrap-compulsory-voting/story-fn3dxiwe-1226546911297

THE Prime Minister has used Twitter to attack the Newman government's bid to ask Queenslanders whether compulsory voting should be scrapped for state elections.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has urged her Twitter followers to fight the Newman government's plan.

"Don't let the Liberals make our democracy the plaything of cashed-up interest groups," she posted.

Compulsory voting could be scrapped in Queensland state elections under a Newman government plan to overhaul electoral laws.

Attorney-General Jarrod Bleijie has released a discussion paper on possible reforms to be put out for public consultation.

The paper lists the pros and cons of abolishing compulsory voting and highlights other possible reforms, including changes to political donations, how-to-vote cards and political advertising.

It quotes the report of a Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters on the 1996 federal election that recommended compulsory voting be abolished so Australia could be considered "a mature democracy".

The report argued that voting could only be considered a 'right' if people could exercise a 'right' not to vote.

Voting in Queensland state elections has been compulsory since 1915.

Mr Bleijie says the discussion paper aims to make the government more accountable.

"Fair and effective electoral laws are central to the promotion of participation in our democracy," he said in a statement on Thursday.

"The options in the discussion paper are not intended to be exhaustive and the government is after a variety of opinions and ideas."

The submission period is open until March 1.


sorry FD. that highlighted comment is just plain stupid. it is counter-intuitive and more like the kind of think SOB would say. voting is NOT irrational and I fail to see how a sober intelligent person could come to that conclusion.


Awww disagreed with him did you? Every time you do that you show us how young and uneducated you are.

SOB


I think FD would be disturbed that you agree with him. Most people would be.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 4:33pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 4:23pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:50pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:45pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:12am:
QLD already has a hybrid form of compulsory/optional voting, which causes all sorts of problems:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

Now Campbell Newman wants to make it completely optional. My objections are:

1) Voting is an irrational act, given the personal effort required and the almost certainty that your effort will make no difference to your life (or anyone else's).  If you make it optional, only irrational people vote. Rational people will find more 'productive' uses for their Saturday morning.

2) Voting in a modern democracy should be considered a responsibility, not a right.

3) Making voting optional changes the nature of the political debate. It means politicians become motivational speakers rather than policy debaters. This is because it is more important to preach to the converted than target undecided voters, because you have to get your supporters to turn up and vote. Fear is the biggest motivator, and the politics of fear (of the other party) become more important than rational criticism. Our elections would turn into circuses, like US elections.

PM hits back at Qld compulsory voting plan

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/qld-could-scrap-compulsory-voting/story-fn3dxiwe-1226546911297

THE Prime Minister has used Twitter to attack the Newman government's bid to ask Queenslanders whether compulsory voting should be scrapped for state elections.

Prime Minister Julia Gillard has urged her Twitter followers to fight the Newman government's plan.

"Don't let the Liberals make our democracy the plaything of cashed-up interest groups," she posted.

Compulsory voting could be scrapped in Queensland state elections under a Newman government plan to overhaul electoral laws.

Attorney-General Jarrod Bleijie has released a discussion paper on possible reforms to be put out for public consultation.

The paper lists the pros and cons of abolishing compulsory voting and highlights other possible reforms, including changes to political donations, how-to-vote cards and political advertising.

It quotes the report of a Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters on the 1996 federal election that recommended compulsory voting be abolished so Australia could be considered "a mature democracy".

The report argued that voting could only be considered a 'right' if people could exercise a 'right' not to vote.

Voting in Queensland state elections has been compulsory since 1915.

Mr Bleijie says the discussion paper aims to make the government more accountable.

"Fair and effective electoral laws are central to the promotion of participation in our democracy," he said in a statement on Thursday.

"The options in the discussion paper are not intended to be exhaustive and the government is after a variety of opinions and ideas."

The submission period is open until March 1.


sorry FD. that highlighted comment is just plain stupid. it is counter-intuitive and more like the kind of think SOB would say. voting is NOT irrational and I fail to see how a sober intelligent person could come to that conclusion.


Awww disagreed with him did you? Every time you do that you show us how young and uneducated you are.

SOB


I think FD would be disturbed that you agree with him. Most people would be.


Link to where i agreed with him liar.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 4:55pm

Quote:
sorry FD. that highlighted comment is just plain stupid. it is counter-intuitive and more like the kind of think SOB would say. voting is NOT irrational and I fail to see how a sober intelligent person could come to that conclusion.


Perhaps you should have kept reading to the end of the sentence.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 6:18pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 4:55pm:

Quote:
sorry FD. that highlighted comment is just plain stupid. it is counter-intuitive and more like the kind of think SOB would say. voting is NOT irrational and I fail to see how a sober intelligent person could come to that conclusion.


Perhaps you should have kept reading to the end of the sentence.


I did so in the first place. your 'irrational' comment is still just as silly. In \fact, just defending it makes you look sillier. what is 'irrational' about voting? what is irrational (if anything) is to not vote and have a say in the running of the country.

I support compuslroy voting just as you do, but that was an awesomely silly reason.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Peter Freedman on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 6:51pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:47pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.


well that is ever more twaddle than FD's first point. what utter crap.


It's called satire. I wouldn't expect you to understand it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 6:59pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:49pm:
I support compulsory voting as the responsibility of anyone living in a democracy. dont want to vote? dont get the benefits (welfare, services etc)




Hopefully we can still pay the taxes that fund those benefits; life would be pretty sh1t if we didn't get taxed for services we didn't recieve.  ;D


Calm down, nearly every single first world democracy functions more than fine treating their voters like adults, no need to get one's panties all bunched up.


Besides you don't live in QLD so it won't affect you in any way, shape or form.




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:09pm

Quote:
I did so in the first place. your 'irrational' comment is still just as silly. In \fact, just defending it makes you look sillier. what is 'irrational' about voting?


Read to the end of the sentence, and all will be revealed.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 7:22pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 3:49pm:
I support compulsory voting as the responsibility of anyone living in a democracy. dont want to vote? dont get the benefits (welfare, services etc)



Compulsory voting

Democracy

lol!!!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 8:41pm
What is it with Qld and voting remember they had Joe who kept changing the boundaries till it looked like people voted for him.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 8:54pm
I am about with FD on this one.

Our system may not be perfect but it is better than any other option I have seen.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 9:14pm
Voluntary voting will provide the LNP with an advantage, because in every other country in the world, those voters on the left of politics tend to show the poorest turn out.

On that basis, I can see a tangible economic advantage for Queensland in adopting non compulsory voting as a means of keeping out governments with the financial aptitude of a horde of lemmings.

Apart from that, do we really need a vote from those people who vote only because it's compulsory?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by thelastnail on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:36pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:54pm:

Quote:
Unless voting is completely optional then any claim to be called a democracy is a farce.


Oh look, another person who can't tell the difference between democracy and freedom.


What difference does it make ?

You are missing the the point that if I don't think there is anyone worth voting for then I don't won't to waste my time going there and standing in a queue just to vote informal !!

I've got better things to do with my time than to participate in a futile exercise of a make believe democratic process only to see the same old tweedle-dee or tweedle-dumb political party getting voted in once again :(

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:45pm
You could always vote for someone else, or even run yourself.

Your laziness has nothing to do with getting out of bed on Saturday. The problem is you are too intellectually lazy to even think about the differences between the two major parties.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by thelastnail on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:22pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:45pm:
You could always vote for someone else, or even run yourself.

Your laziness has nothing to do with getting out of bed on Saturday. The problem is you are too intellectually lazy to even think about the differences between the two major parties.


I don't have to vote for anything if I choose not to. That is a true democracy !!

And it's got nothing to do with laziness. If my local supermarket doesn't carry the brand of breakfast cereal that I like then I don't go to it.

I don't have to go to the supermarket just so they can acknowledge my presence and I walk out with nothing. The end result is the same where I don't have the cereal that I wanted.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:48am
You need a lot of money to run yourself. Chances are you will get the pauline hanson treatment.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:52am

muso wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 9:14pm:
Voluntary voting will provide the LNP with an advantage,


Oh now we see what it is really all about a percieved political advantage, what a surprise.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:10am

Many more democracies have non compulsive voting than the other way around. What are we afraid of? That no one will turn up? How embarrassing would that be?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:12am
I agree with Pansi.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:19am

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:45pm:
You could always vote for someone else, or even run yourself.

Your laziness has nothing to do with getting out of bed on Saturday. The problem is you are too intellectually lazy to even think about the differences between the two major parties.



I have thought about it, and there's not much difference at all. They are both essentially right wing. I only vote for the lower house so that some Independents or green's might get in to block some of the rubbish.

Both major parties are duds. I'd never vote for a dud even if I am forced to. I have no problem bucking the system if they can't supply the goods.

We will only ever get real change if we stop accepting trashy governments. No one can honestly be happy with either of the major parties as they stand. Question time in parliament is a comedy show.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:27am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:10am:
Many more democracies have non compulsive voting than the other way around. What are we afraid of? That no one will turn up? How embarrassing would that be?



We have a better standard than most democracies.

Earlier in the year I watched the US train wreck voting system, they recently had an election result of 5 to 3 in the high court. They held an election and in the end decieded to not bother counting the votes.

In the UK there was an election a few years ago won on something like 20% of the vote. Obviously in the UK a mandate means going out with a bloke.

The biggest impact of non compulsory voting would be an increase in the influence of interest groups and a reduction in the influence of the people.

If a government has the option to spend money on an issue where they may get some votes as opposed to areas where there is nothing for them where do you think most of the cash will end up.

Look at things like the US gun Lobby they are so powerfull that the US can not address a genuine problem which is routinely killing their children.

I see no advantage in going to the lower standard and see potential problems down the track if we take power from the people and give it to minority interest groups.

Like it or not manditory voting makes government at least try to represent all of us.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:35am
No you don't.

Your voting system is crap to be honest.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by aquascoot on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:03am
:D
Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:22pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 10:45pm:
You could always vote for someone else, or even run yourself.

Your laziness has nothing to do with getting out of bed on Saturday. The problem is you are too intellectually lazy to even think about the differences between the two major parties.


I don't have to vote for anything if I choose not to. That is a true democracy !!

And it's got nothing to do with laziness. If my local supermarket doesn't carry the brand of breakfast cereal that I like then I don't go to it.

I don't have to go to the supermarket just so they can acknowledge my presence and I walk out with nothing. The end result is the same where I don't have the cereal that I wanted.



:D :D :D  good analogy

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:08am

Quote:
And it's got nothing to do with laziness. If my local supermarket doesn't carry the brand of breakfast cereal that I like then I don't go to it.


You don't get to choose supermarkets in this analogy TNL. That's the problem with analogies isn't it. Like it or not, one of the two major parties is going to win the next election, and pretending you cannot tell the difference between them is nothing more than laziness. There is a difference between saying that both are bad and saying that both are equally bad.


Quote:
Many more democracies have non compulsive voting than the other way around. What are we afraid of? That no one will turn up? How embarrassing would that be?


Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.


Quote:
Both major parties are duds. I'd never vote for a dud even if I am forced to.


If you have to rank all candidates, then you have to choose one of them. This is a good thing.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:11am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:35am:
No you don't.

Your voting system is crap to be honest.



You don't need to post this Andrei - we all know your opinion.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:23am

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:22pm:
And it's got nothing to do with laziness. If my local supermarket doesn't carry the brand of breakfast cereal that I like then I don't go to it.


Would you vote for Coco Pops, Sugar Frosties, rice bubbles, Nutragrain or sultana bran?

Maybe a polling booth in the supermarkets?

Buy the Rice Bubbles - snap crackle pop - Abbott Hockey Pine. Automatic vote for the Libs recorded at the register.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by FRED. on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:12am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:23am:

Sir lastnail wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:22pm:
And it's got nothing to do with laziness. If my local supermarket doesn't carry the brand of breakfast cereal that I like then I don't go to it.


Would you vote for Coco Pops, Sugar Frosties, rice bubbles, Nutragrain or sultana bran?

Maybe a polling booth in the supermarkets?

Buy the Rice Bubbles - snap crackle pop - Abbott Hockey Pine. Automatic vote for the Libs recorded at the register.

donations.

Mr Bleijie says it is a chance for everyone to have a say.

Lecturer in politics at Griffith University, Dr Paul Williams, says there is room for improvement for Queensland's electoral system.

"Only a fool would say the voting system is perfect and every piece of legislation should be reviewed from time to time," he said.

However, Dr Williams says compulsory voting should stay.

"The quite preposterous idea of voluntary voting, while the rest of Australia remains in compulsory voting - this is not the place to discuss it."

Political analyst Professor Scott Prasser says this is one of the more sensible documents put forward by the Liberal National Party (LNP) Government.

"It is a bit of that renovation of our system of government people like me have been calling for," he said.

"I know there is always political motives involved and all these things, but I think we should give Government a bit of a tick for at least putting these issues on the agenda."

Professor Prasser says he does not have a problem with unions supporting political parties.

"If a trade union wants to give money to a political party, as long as that trade union is above board, then that's what they should be able [to do]," he said.

"It's no different from a business wanting to give money to a political party."

The Government is accepting submissions until March 1.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:47am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:11am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:35am:
No you don't.

Your voting system is crap to be honest.



You don't need to post this Andrei - we all know your opinion.


It's correct too.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:52am

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:08am:

Quote:
[quote]Many more democracies have non compulsive voting than the other way around. What are we afraid of? That no one will turn up? How embarrassing would that be?


Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.



So what is your counter argument exactly, it must be bad because so many first world democracies embrace it?


Let's look at those great democracies that embrace forced voting like we do.

Argentina - up until recently military juntas had direct political influence over the people and didn't mind killing any opposition

Brazil - also up until recently run by a military dictatorship, is seem compulsory voting is very popular with this type of government, so it must be good.

Democratic Republic of the Congo - it has democratic in its title so it must be a great place for human rights; sadly no. But they do have compulsory voting that keeps their dictator in power.

Ecuador - was a military dictatorship for long time, decided the being a true compulsory voting democracy was the way to go, up until a recent military coup.

Are you seeing a pattern here?

Crap countries dispose of basic human rights to meet the political ends, the company we keep with these political systems is not one we should be proud of.

Your argument that being popular is in itself wrong, is total bullsh1t. The reason nearly every single first world democracy embraces the right to vote is because it produces the best type of democracy. It's only ignorance and hubris that keeps us a backward semi-democratic country.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:57am

Quote:
So what is your counter argument exactly, it must be bad because so many first world democracies embrace it?


Check the opening post. A few more good ones have been added by other members.


Quote:
Your argument that being popular is in itself wrong, is total bullsh1t.


Who argued that?


Quote:
It's only ignorance and hubris that keeps us a backward semi-democratic country.


In what way are we semi-democratic?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by KJT1981 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:13am
In an interview on TV yesterday with a former US senator who was asked what he thinks about this proposal, his answer was ... don't change it .. when he was a senator he spent most of his time trying to convince people to turn out and vote rather than debating policies .... coming from someone who has actually been part of the non compulsory system it would be wise to pay attention to what he has to say about it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:19am
KJ, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by KJT1981 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:21am

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:13am:
In an interview on TV yesterday with a former US senator who was asked what he thinks about this proposal, his answer was ... don't change it .. when he was a senator he spent most of his time trying to convince people to turn out and vote rather than debating policies .... coming from someone who has actually been part of the non compulsory system it would be wise to pay attention to what he has to say about it.



It would be very unwise to take any notice of him.

Why would you want people that aren't interested in voting to be forced to vote?

Do a check of the informal votes. In most Labor held seats the informal vote is quite high so their vote is wasted. Those voters only go so as not to be fined.

In Liberal seats the informal is quite low.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:32am

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:21am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:13am:
In an interview on TV yesterday with a former US senator who was asked what he thinks about this proposal, his answer was ... don't change it .. when he was a senator he spent most of his time trying to convince people to turn out and vote rather than debating policies .... coming from someone who has actually been part of the non compulsory system it would be wise to pay attention to what he has to say about it.



It would be very unwise to take any notice of him.

Why would you want people that aren't interested in voting to be forced to vote?

Do a check of the informal votes. In most Labor held seats the informal vote is quite high so their vote is wasted. Those voters only go so as not to be fined.

In Liberal seats the informal is quite low.


Without looking up the numbers on informal votes, I'd say it's no where near 50% .... which is less than what the voter turn out in the last US el;ection was ... sure some people want to protest and vote informal, you say it's because they just don't want to be fined, I say they vote informal because they don't like the choices , its probably a mixture of both .... by making them go and vote, you make them take an interest .. even if it's only an cursory interest, its more than they would take in any other system.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by thelastnail on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:32am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:27am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:10am:
Many more democracies have non compulsive voting than the other way around. What are we afraid of? That no one will turn up? How embarrassing would that be?



We have a better standard than most democracies.

Earlier in the year I watched the US train wreck voting system, they recently had an election result of 5 to 3 in the high court. They held an election and in the end decieded to not bother counting the votes.

In the UK there was an election a few years ago won on something like 20% of the vote. Obviously in the UK a mandate means going out with a bloke.

The biggest impact of non compulsory voting would be an increase in the influence of interest groups and a reduction in the influence of the people.

If a government has the option to spend money on an issue where they may get some votes as opposed to areas where there is nothing for them where do you think most of the cash will end up.

Look at things like the US gun Lobby they are so powerfull that the US can not address a genuine problem which is routinely killing their children.

I see no advantage in going to the lower standard and see potential problems down the track if we take power from the people and give it to minority interest groups.

Like it or not manditory voting makes government at least try to represent all of us.


If it's such a good standard then why the preferential voting system ?

That is a scam !!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 12:24pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


it's how we keep the turds out ....

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 4th, 2013 at 12:30pm
He was just ranting his BS on TV saying the "far left" want to "tax air" so they shouldn't have to vote.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 12:57pm
Even the libs disagree with Newman ... Ok it's Barnaby, and he is a nutcase, but he's still a lib

http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/15760694/joyce-attacks-lnp-calls-to-scrap-compulsory-voting/

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:28pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 12:57pm:
Even the libs disagree with Newman ... Ok it's Barnaby, and he is a nutcase, but he's still a lib

http://au.news.yahoo.com/latest/a/-/latest/15760694/joyce-attacks-lnp-calls-to-scrap-compulsory-voting/



You know you are on a winner when barnaby joyce is on your side.  ;D


He doesn't even bother to prove any of his statements with examples from any of the first world democracies that suffer from this affliction.


Maybe someone should point out that in counties that force their citizens to the polls, argentina, equador, lebanon greece, mexico, the politics (human rights) isn't so crash hot either, but never let the facts get in the way.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:43pm

Quote:
He doesn't even bother to prove any of his statements with examples from any of the first world democracies that suffer from this affliction.


Perhaps even Barnaby realises that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:47pm

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

Quote:
He doesn't even bother to prove any of his statements with examples from any of the first world democracies that suffer from this affliction.


Perhaps even Barnaby realises that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.



Or he could just be an idiot that doesn't know what the bugger he is talking about.

I'm thinking it's the latter



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 4th, 2013 at 4:51pm

aquascoot wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 11:49am:
great man campbell.

freeing up one extra saturday for me to go fishing

gee, i love that bloke.

you will too when he's in the lodge. ;) ;)

PEOPLE DIED FOR DEMOCRACY AND THIS THIEF WANTS TO TAKE IT AWAY!

HE WILL NEVER LIVE THIS DOWN- MARK MY WORDS!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 4:54pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

Quote:
He doesn't even bother to prove any of his statements with examples from any of the first world democracies that suffer from this affliction.


Perhaps even Barnaby realises that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.



Or he could just be an idiot that doesn't know what the bugger he is talking about.

I'm thinking it's the latter


I actually agree ... he is an idiot ... but not just this time. . he is always an idiot. . even when he spewing out the liberal mantra .... you just think he's an idiot on this particular issue because you don't like the issue

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:02pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 4:54pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:47pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 1:43pm:

Quote:
He doesn't even bother to prove any of his statements with examples from any of the first world democracies that suffer from this affliction.


Perhaps even Barnaby realises that argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.



Or he could just be an idiot that doesn't know what the bugger he is talking about.

I'm thinking it's the latter


I actually agree ... he is an idiot ... but not just this time. . he is always an idiot. . even when he spewing out the liberal mantra .... you just think he's an idiot on this particular issue because you don't like the issue



He is always an idiot, and agrees with forcing people to vote.



I agree that Australia should be a first world democracy with codified human rights, including the right to vote.

If the political parties miss out of a few votes then welcome to a a true democracy, just like they have in nearly every other first world country.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:15pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:54pm:

Quote:
Unless voting is completely optional then any claim to be called a democracy is a farce.


Oh look, another person who can't tell the difference between democracy and freedom.

LOL, HADRIAN GOT STUNG LIKE NO LIBERAL VOTER EVER GOT STUNG BEFORE!

GO REPACK THE CRACK PIPE HADRIAN YA LOSER!

  :D :D

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Deathridesahorse on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:20pm

freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 1:04pm:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.

Lib voters spend their days beside the swimming pool drinking dry martinis and it is no problem to ask the chauffeur to get the Rolls out of the garage and run them down to the polling booth.


That is a very interesting point Peter, one that may well sink this legislation.

The more pertinent point being of course that lib voters are more tryhard business like and know the golden rule of buiness is just being there using your gob!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:59pm

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?



It is not compulsory in any other Western country

I think you will find that actually it is in about 35 of them.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:11pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:59pm:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?



It is not compulsory in any other Western country

I think you will find that actually it is in about 35 of them.




Care to provide some sort of evidence for that statement.


here is a start, Luxembourg and Belgium, only 33 to go


Good luck with that




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:52pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:11pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:59pm:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?



It is not compulsory in any other Western country

I think you will find that actually it is in about 35 of them.




Care to provide some sort of evidence for that statement.


here is a start, Luxembourg and Belgium, only 33 to go


Good luck with that



It has been posted many times - go look it up and correct me if my memory is incorrect.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:11pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:35am:
No you don't.

Your voting system is crap to be honest.


compared the US system which is corrupt? where a returning officer can actually say that the results seem clear already so we wont count absentee or postal votes? a system where votes are sometimes counted in secret by represtentatives of a single party?

i'll take ours any day.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:42pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.



It is you thats the joke .... votes in ... read it and weap

http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/15763961/lucky-to-be-born-in-australia/

where is the US on that list? Or Britain for that matter? They are even worse ...

there's a sucker born every day .

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by rabbitoh07 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:31pm
Cambell is on a winner.

First - scrap compulsory voting.
Next - scrap voting.

Then Geoff Seeney can rule us in the way that Joh meant it.
And we will all be happy.

Don't you worry about that.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by rabbitoh07 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:32pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.

Yes.  You are absolutely right.

Shall I email you the Qantas departures timetable?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by KJT1981 on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:34pm

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


A Leech is not a worm. Depending on the leech they belong in the Hirudidae or Haemadipsidae family.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:40pm

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


A Leech is not a worm. Depending on the leech they belong in the Hirudidae or Haemadipsidae family.



blow it out your arse looser ... you just can't get anything right can you?

'Leeches are annelids or segmented worms, and although closely related to the earthworms, are anatomically and behaviourally more specialised'

http://australianmuseum.net.au/Leeches

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:42pm
Compulsory voting is more likely to work in Newmans favour the next election.

There is a bigger incentive for labor and swinging voters to turn up to get rid of him then there is for dissapointed Liberal voters to bother.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:15am

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


As patriotic as your family.
First generation aren't you?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:33am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:15am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


As patriotic as your family.
First generation aren't you?


I have never seen you say anything good about australia or australians - ever.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by JC Denton on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:42am
i've never seen any non-dodgy argument for compulsory voting for any of its do-gooder boosters, ever.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:43am

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:33am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:15am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


As patriotic as your family.
First generation aren't you?


I have never seen you say anything good about australia or australians - ever.

SOB


At one time they weren't bad at cricket.

I would play their central midfielder Cahill above any we have of Lampard, Gerrard and Cole.

It has some nice beaches.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:45am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:11pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:59pm:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?



It is not compulsory in any other Western country

I think you will find that actually it is in about 35 of them.




Care to provide some sort of evidence for that statement.


here is a start, Luxembourg and Belgium, only 33 to go


Good luck with that



It has been posted many times - go look it up and correct me if my memory is incorrect.



Yes that information has been posted many times by myself, pity you didn't retain the information I posted instead of just making sh1t up.

We are very much alone when it comes to not having codified human rights and attempting to be a first world democracy, see they pretty much go hand in hand. Take the time to look back at this post and you will see the type of country that forces its citizens to the polls and you decide if that company is acceptable.

BTW it is up to you to support your own statements.




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 6:30am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:43am:
At one time they weren't bad at cricket.

I would play their central midfielder Cahill above any we have of Lampard, Gerrard and Cole.

It has some nice beaches.




It's safe here Andrei. It used to be safer, before we started invading random countries with the yanks.

I've always thought it's ok to biatch about your country if it's not doing it's best for its citizens, after all, a country is only as good as the way it treats its most vulnerable citizen's.

Australia is a good country, although it used to be much better. I suppose the leaders have a lot to do with that, or maybe lots of countries used to be better and we're all going to the pits together.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 6:34am
Its too far away. I guess that's my main problem with Australia.
Yes it is nice but it's the other side of the world to everything.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 6:53am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 6:34am:
Its too far away. I guess that's my main problem with Australia.
Yes it is nice but it's the other side of the world to everything.


Yeah! I don't mind that, it has its advantages. It is too far to travel to Europe, that looooong flight/s is a killer, but I'm cool with Asia travel.

We are a bit behind the rest of the developed world, but that's ok too. I used to think that we'd catch up one day, but now I know it won't happen.

At least we get to see the new technologies get truly tested before we buy them, that's an advantage.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:12am
Each to their own.
I am moving back to England this year and this will be the last move for some time now.

I have to go to Europe it's where my family are, hence the twice yearly flight is a killer in both cost and distance.

Unless you fly China Eastern which I really don't recommend.

Asia?
I am of the Paul Keating school.
"Isn't it that place you fly over to go to Europe?"

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:59am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:15am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


As patriotic as your family.
First generation aren't you?


what difference does it make what generation? Are you even first generation or are you just a wannabe?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:00am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:12am:
Each to their own.
I am moving back to England this year and this will be the last move for some time now.

I have to go to Europe it's where my family are, hence the twice yearly flight is a killer in both cost and distance.

Unless you fly China Eastern which I really don't recommend.

Asia?
I am of the Paul Keating school.
"Isn't it that place you fly over to go to Europe?"


Moving to the UK? After all your going on about how great it is in the USA .... were you bullsheating again? Not so great in the USA? you need to run away?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:03am
The US is fantastic but only ever temporary.
This is family driven.

The USA is for me the best country in the world.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:08am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:03am:
The US is fantastic but only ever temporary.
This is family driven.

The USA is for me the best country in the world.


good thing your opinion doesn't count for much then isn't it .... 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:09am

John Smith wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:59am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:15am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


As patriotic as your family.
First generation aren't you?


what difference does it make what generation? Are you even first generation or are you just a wannabe?


A bit rich to be lectured on patriotism by a Southern European Aussie whose family cleared out from their country for the easy life.

That's all.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:10am

John Smith wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:08am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:03am:
The US is fantastic but only ever temporary.
This is family driven.

The USA is for me the best country in the world.


good thing your opinion doesn't count for much then isn't it .... 


Matters just as much yours.
We don't rank opinions in this country.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:13am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:09am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:59am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:15am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


As patriotic as your family.
First generation aren't you?


what difference does it make what generation? Are you even first generation or are you just a wannabe?


A bit rich to be lectured on patriotism by a Southern European Aussie whose family cleared out from their country for the easy life.

That's all.


not sure what you are on about dopey ... I was born in this country ... Port Kembla hospital if you must know. As such I am patriotic to my country .... you on the other hand flip flop depending on who's paying your wage.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:17am
And I was born in Melbourne but that's as irrelevant as your point.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:25am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:09am:
A bit rich to be lectured on patriotism by a Southern European Aussie whose family cleared out from their country for the easy life.

That's all.



Isn't that exactly how your family got here except that maybe it wasn't from southern Europe?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:26am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:10am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:08am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:03am:
The US is fantastic but only ever temporary.
This is family driven.

The USA is for me the best country in the world.


good thing your opinion doesn't count for much then isn't it .... 


Matters just as much yours.
We don't rank opinions in this country.


you might not, but others do .... actually shows how poor your judgement is ....

http://au.news.yahoo.com/today-tonight/lifestyle/article/-/15763961/lucky-to-be-born-in-australia/

what position is the USA in?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:27am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:25am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:09am:
A bit rich to be lectured on patriotism by a Southern European Aussie whose family cleared out from their country for the easy life.

That's all.



Isn't that exactly how your family got here except that maybe it wasn't from southern Europe?


No it wasn't.
They transferred for work.
This before your useless pr1ck Hawke caused us to leave by selling workers out.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:27am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:09am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:59am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:15am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:01pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 7:15pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 10:24am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


Australia is probably one of the most nanny state countries I have ever been in.

Don't do this, don't do that.
Ooooh you can't bet online in-game, that's illegal.
You must vote or we fine you.
3kmhr over a low speed limit, points on license and fine.

Fking joke country Australia is a lot of the time.


that's why we are the favoured place on the planet to live. perhaps most people don't favour money over... everything. you sold your soul for money and didn't even get a particularly good price for it.


I don't believe you are a better place to live.
I am as patriotic as anyone I am just honest about the place.


Your as patriotic as a leech .... a bloodsucking worm


As patriotic as your family.
First generation aren't you?


what difference does it make what generation? Are you even first generation or are you just a wannabe?


A bit rich to be lectured on patriotism by a Southern European Aussie whose family cleared out from their country for the easy life.That's all.


firstly, I haven't cleared out of my country ... I'm still here

secondly, I find this a bit tad hypocritical coming from you.  You change countries every few years in search of an easier life .... what a hypocrite.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:28am

Quote:
If the political parties miss out of a few votes then welcome to a a true democracy, just like they have in nearly every other first world country.


Bigol would you mind giving a definition of a 'true' democracy?


Quote:
i've never seen any non-dodgy argument for compulsory voting for any of its do-gooder boosters, ever.


Perhaps you should read before commenting then Denton.


Quote:
Take the time to look back at this post and you will see the type of country that forces its citizens to the polls and you decide if that company is acceptable.


Bigol, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Are you actually going to address the logical flaws in your argument, or just repeat yourself ad nauseum?


Quote:
BTW it is up to you to support your own statements.


;D

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:29am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:25am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:09am:
A bit rich to be lectured on patriotism by a Southern European Aussie whose family cleared out from their country for the easy life.

That's all.



Isn't that exactly how your family got here except that maybe it wasn't from southern Europe?


he to dumb to realise that both Australia and USA are countries built on immigrants ... it's Ok for him to travel to other countries in search of work, but not for an Italian .... the guys a goose.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:32am
Ah so you're an Italian now eh?

That's exactly my problem with you people and your similar type comrades from Greece.

Still regard yourselves back in those origins.

I am just saying its a little rich to be lectured on patriotism from someone whose family were part of the hordes who showed scant care for rebuilding Italy and pissed off to Australia to live the easy life.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:46am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:32am:
Ah so you're an Italian now eh?

That's exactly my problem with you people and your similar type comrades from Greece.

Still regard yourselves back in those origins.

I am just saying its a little rich to be lectured on patriotism from someone whose family were part of the hordes who showed scant care for rebuilding Italy and pissed off to Australia to live the easy life.


You were referring to my grandfather leaving Italy .. .he was Italian ....  somehow you seem to think his travelling o'seas to shows scant care ... whilst when you do it its because you are so clever ... your a f#cken joke .... a hypocrite to the hundreth degree. Ive had dogs with more integrity than you . 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:47am
Italians.

Like rats and water. You board the place up and they'll still find their way in....

:)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:51am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:47am:
Italians.

Like rats and water. You board the place up and they'll still find their way in....

:)


Your the expert on rats .......

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:13am
You will both be banned if you carry on with this crap.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:49am

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:28am:

Quote:
If the political parties miss out of a few votes then welcome to a a true democracy, just like they have in nearly every other first world country.


Bigol would you mind giving a definition of a 'true' democracy?

[quote]i've never seen any non-dodgy argument for compulsory voting for any of its do-gooder boosters, ever.


Perhaps you should read before commenting then Denton.


Quote:
Take the time to look back at this post and you will see the type of country that forces its citizens to the polls and you decide if that company is acceptable.


Bigol, argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Are you actually going to address the logical flaws in your argument, or just repeat yourself ad nauseum?


Quote:
BTW it is up to you to support your own statements.


;D[/quote]


Bit rich that you demand I argue my case when you are too friggen lazy to come up with these supposed western democracies (35 in total)  that utilise compulsory voting, the reason you cannot is they don't friggen exist.

BTW using "argumentum ad populum" ad nauseum doesn't make it so without the underlying proof that the majority of first world democracies are wrong to believe in basic human rights are the cornerstone of a solid democracy, ya tool.


I know you have found a new latin phrase that you want to use until it is a worn out hackneyed old phrase (now) but you need to have some foundation for your argument to have any sort of credibility.

I'm fine using the UN Human Rights charter as the basis for mine.





Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 11:40am

Quote:
Bit rich that you demand I argue my case when you are too friggen lazy to come up with these supposed western democracies (35 in total)  that utilise compulsory voting


You are confused bigol.


Quote:
BTW using "argumentum ad populum" ad nauseum doesn't make it so without the underlying proof that the majority of first world democracies are wrong to believe in basic human rights are the cornerstone of a solid democracy, ya tool.


Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. No amount of evidence can overcome the logical flaw in your argument, because both the evidence and your argument are meaningless.


Quote:
I know you have found a new latin phrase that you want to use until it is a worn out


Actually I just get sick of explaining the same concept to you over and over again, to no avail.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 12:07pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 11:40am:

Quote:
Bit rich that you demand I argue my case when you are too friggen lazy to come up with these supposed western democracies (35 in total)  that utilise compulsory voting


You are confused bigol.

[quote]BTW using "argumentum ad populum" ad nauseum doesn't make it so without the underlying proof that the majority of first world democracies are wrong to believe in basic human rights are the cornerstone of a solid democracy, ya tool.


Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. No amount of evidence can overcome the logical flaw in your argument, because both the evidence and your argument are meaningless.


Quote:
I know you have found a new latin phrase that you want to use until it is a worn out


Actually I just get sick of explaining the same concept to you over and over again, to no avail.[/quote]



You're a fvcken dill with a dictionary.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 12:37pm
Here is an article I put together about these common logical fallacies a few years ago.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/logical-fallacies.html#argumentum%20ad%20populum

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 12:50pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:27am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:25am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:09am:
A bit rich to be lectured on patriotism by a Southern European Aussie whose family cleared out from their country for the easy life.

That's all.



Isn't that exactly how your family got here except that maybe it wasn't from southern Europe?


No it wasn't.
They transferred for work.
This before your useless pr1ck Hawke caused us to leave by selling workers out.


They took a pay cut and moved for a tougher life?

They cleared out of Europe for an economic advantageous position? (the easy life).

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 12:56pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:45am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:11pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:59pm:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?



It is not compulsory in any other Western country

I think you will find that actually it is in about 35 of them.




Care to provide some sort of evidence for that statement.


here is a start, Luxembourg and Belgium, only 33 to go


Good luck with that



It has been posted many times - go look it up and correct me if my memory is incorrect.



Yes that information has been posted many times by myself, pity you didn't retain the information I posted instead of just making sh1t up.

We are very much alone when it comes to not having codified human rights and attempting to be a first world democracy, see they pretty much go hand in hand. Take the time to look back at this post and you will see the type of country that forces its citizens to the polls and you decide if that company is acceptable.

BTW it is up to you to support your own statements.


Yes that information has been posted many times by myself

Do you always ask people provide proof to statmets which you know to be correct?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:21pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 12:56pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:45am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:52pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 6:11pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 5:59pm:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?



It is not compulsory in any other Western country

I think you will find that actually it is in about 35 of them.




Care to provide some sort of evidence for that statement.


here is a start, Luxembourg and Belgium, only 33 to go


Good luck with that



It has been posted many times - go look it up and correct me if my memory is incorrect.



Yes that information has been posted many times by myself, pity you didn't retain the information I posted instead of just making sh1t up.

We are very much alone when it comes to not having codified human rights and attempting to be a first world democracy, see they pretty much go hand in hand. Take the time to look back at this post and you will see the type of country that forces its citizens to the polls and you decide if that company is acceptable.

BTW it is up to you to support your own statements.


Yes that information has been posted many times by myself

Do you always ask people provide proof to statmets which you know to be correct?



WTF stupid post is that?


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by perceptions_now on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:36pm
IMO scraping compulsory voting, would promote a US style system, where Politicians would end up being voted in a small % of the population.

This would also promote "interest groups", to "PUSH" certain select candidates & party's, who will back the wishes of those "interest groups".

So, IF you want a US style system & the increased levels of corruption that would go with, then that is what you will get.

BUT, as the saying goes, BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR, BECAUSE YOU JUST MAY GET IT!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:10pm

We should have a "none of the above" option on the ballet paper so that those who are dissatisfied with all candidates can still have a say. That would be even better than a spoiled or invalid paper.

If the majority of the people are not happy with the candidates then the party has to go out and find new candidates. Majority rules.

At the moment all we are getting is long term staff members who are being put forward as candidates. We want real people from our community, not public servant puppets that are only in it for their own benefit.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:35pm

perceptions_now wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 1:36pm:
IMO scraping compulsory voting, would promote a US style system, where Politicians would end up being voted in a small % of the population.

This would also promote "interest groups", to "PUSH" certain select candidates & party's, who will back the wishes of those "interest groups".

So, IF you want a US style system & the increased levels of corruption that would go with, then that is what you will get.

BUT, as the saying goes, BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR, BECAUSE YOU JUST MAY GET IT!


Be honest and ask yourself if that's the situation in the UK, because they have never had compulsory voting.  Australia is the anomaly.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:53pm
Voter turnout in the UK is about 65% of registered voters. This figure obviously excludes unregistered voters, but also spoilt votes.


Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:10pm:
We should have a "none of the above" option on the ballet paper so that those who are dissatisfied with all candidates can still have a say. That would be even better than a spoiled or invalid paper.

If the majority of the people are not happy with the candidates then the party has to go out and find new candidates. Majority rules.

At the moment all we are getting is long term staff members who are being put forward as candidates. We want real people from our community, not public servant puppets that are only in it for their own benefit.


I think that would encourage intellectual laziness and protest voting. Voting is always going to be a tough choice. A lot of people who 'don't like politics' Would prefer an easy option that avoids the tough choice, even though they would prefer one outcome over another.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:55pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:49am:
Bit rich that you demand I argue my case when you are too friggen lazy to come up with these supposed western democracies (35 in total)  that utilise compulsory voting, the reason you cannot is they don't friggen exist.


Let's get the facts-

There are only 10 countries in the world where compulsory voting is enforced. These are:

Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ecuador, Luxembourg, Nauru, Peru, Singapore and    Uruguay.

Countries with compulsory voting and with a democracy index of 8 or greater:

Australia and Luxembourg.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fmedia%2Fpdf%2FDEMOCRACY_INDEX_2007_v3.pdf&ei=drDnULydOM3ckgWZ2oCgAQ&usg=AFQjCNFVqSlJr-Qs0WUAb1HNPDuxWSIyAA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dGI&cad=rja

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:57pm
So not only is bigol's argument logically flawed, he had to exclude some of the evidence to back it up.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:59pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:53pm:
Voter turnout in the UK is about 65% of registered voters. This figure obviously excludes unregistered voters, but also spoilt votes.


Is that a bad thing? The 35% that didn't vote were exercising their right not to vote.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:00pm
Yes it is a bad thing for democracy. 35% of registered voters did not vote. As a proportion of eligible citizens, it is far higher.

Democracy is the will of the majority, not the will of an overly excitable minority.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:12pm
We don't have true democracy anywhere (as in the Athenian model).  What we have is a number of different models of neo democracy.

Is it a bad thing for democracy? Well if you consider the right to choose whether you vote or not as part of your definition of democracy, then it's actually a good thing for democracy. If there is a low turnout that's people power - δημοκρατία (demo kratia, or literally people power) in action in the original intent and spirit of the word. It all hinges on whether you regard it as a right or a duty. In the original form, it was a right. The Athenians were not penalised for not participating in government That would been an infringement of their freedom and rights.

So it's entirely dependent on definition.  There are various democracy indexes around, and the question of compulsory voting doesn't make any difference one way or the other.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:18pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:53pm:
Voter turnout in the UK is about 65% of registered voters. This figure obviously excludes unregistered voters, but also spoilt votes.


Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:10pm:
We should have a "none of the above" option on the ballet paper so that those who are dissatisfied with all candidates can still have a say. That would be even better than a spoiled or invalid paper.

If the majority of the people are not happy with the candidates then the party has to go out and find new candidates. Majority rules.

At the moment all we are getting is long term staff members who are being put forward as candidates. We want real people from our community, not public servant puppets that are only in it for their own benefit.


I think that would encourage intellectual laziness and protest voting. Voting is always going to be a tough choice. A lot of people who 'don't like politics' Would prefer an easy option that avoids the tough choice, even though they would prefer one outcome over another.




The so-called intellectually lazy people still have that choice. They vote invalid or just tick any old box.

I'd rather they had the correct box to tick.

I don't believe that the majority of people give it a great deal of thought, that's why the pollies wet themselves when their name is in #1 position on the ballot form.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:25pm

Quote:
We don't have true democracy anywhere (as in the Athenian model).  What we have is a number of different models of neo democracy.


It still democracy.


Quote:
Is it a bad thing for democracy? Well if you consider the right to choose whether you vote or not as part of your definition of democracy


Democracy means the will of the majority. It implies nothing about rights and freedoms, except where they influence the expression of the will of the majority.


Quote:
In the original form, it was a right. The Athenians were not penalised for not participating in government That would been an infringement of their freedom and rights.


They also prevented women, slaves, black people etc from voting. That does not mean that the athenian model defines democracy. Not sure why many people continually defer to them.


Quote:
There are various democracy indexes around, and the question of compulsory voting doesn't make any difference one way or the other.


It makes a difference when the outcome does not reflect the will of the majority.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:38pm
Actually I'll correct myself in terms of the Democracy Index. Compulsory voting reduces the Democracy index:

Quote:
III Political participation

27. Voter participation/turnout for national elections.
(average turnout in parliamentary and/or presidential elections since 2000. Turnout as proportion of population of
voting age).

1 if consistently above 70%
0.5 if between 50% and 70%
0 if below 50%
If voting is obligatory, score 0.

Score 0 if scores for questions 1 or 2 is 0.

So if among the 31 or so democracies in the world with a democratic index of 8 or above, only 2 choose to have compulsory voting, what does that say about the democratic outcome?

It's quite ironic in this kind of discussion that you should argue that a poster is using argumentum ad populum (appeal to the majority).

Isn't democracy in itself a form of appeal to the majority?

- or are you saying that you would prefer a non democratic assessment of democracy?


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:42pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 2:55pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:49am:
Bit rich that you demand I argue my case when you are too friggen lazy to come up with these supposed western democracies (35 in total)  that utilise compulsory voting, the reason you cannot is they don't friggen exist.


Let's get the facts-

There are only 10 countries in the world where compulsory voting is enforced. These are:

Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ecuador, Luxembourg, Nauru, Peru, Singapore and    Uruguay.

Countries with compulsory voting and with a democracy index of 8 or greater:

Australia and Luxembourg.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDsQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.economist.com%2Fmedia%2Fpdf%2FDEMOCRACY_INDEX_2007_v3.pdf&ei=drDnULydOM3ckgWZ2oCgAQ&usg=AFQjCNFVqSlJr-Qs0WUAb1HNPDuxWSIyAA&bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dGI&cad=rja



Left out Belgium (8.15)

Also who said that they needed to meet you flawed domocracy model??

Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ecuador, Luxembourg, Nauru, Peru, Singapore and    Uruguay.

You leave out the 14 countries where the rule is compulsory voting but by some measure it isn't enforced. Australia could be put in that group as well.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:45pm
OK. Here's a  (non compulsory) poll

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:51pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:42pm:
Left out Belgium (8.15)

Not enforced since 2003.

Quote:
Also who said that they needed to meet you flawed domocracy model??


It seems to be well accepted, and it's better to start with something rather than nothing.



Quote:
You leave out the 14 countries where the rule is compulsory voting but by some measure it isn't enforced. Australia could be put in that group as well.


It's enforced in Australia. I know a few people who were given show cause notices.

- and after all, if compulsory voting is not enforced, it's academic. It's not compulsory. End of story. Those 14 countries include Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico  and Thailand. THey don't really make the grade, and are mostly classified as flawed democracies.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:16pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:51pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:42pm:
Left out Belgium (8.15)

Not enforced since 2003.

Quote:
Also who said that they needed to meet you flawed domocracy model??


It seems to be well accepted, and it's better to start with something rather than nothing.


[quote]
You leave out the 14 countries where the rule is compulsory voting but by some measure it isn't enforced. Australia could be put in that group as well.


It's enforced in Australia. I know a few people who were given show cause notices.

- and after all, if compulsory voting is not enforced, it's academic. It's not compulsory. End of story. Those 14 countries include Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico  and Thailand. THey don't really make the grade, and are mostly classified as flawed democracies. [/quote]

KJT1981

Quote:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.

Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:36pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 3:00pm:
Yes it is a bad thing for democracy. 35% of registered voters did not vote. As a proportion of eligible citizens, it is far higher.

Democracy is the will of the majority, not the will of an overly excitable minority.


the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.

Voluntary voting opens the path for manipulation by motivated and excitable minorities.

and best of all... Democracy demands just ONE THING. just one thing. vote. and that is so damned hard for you???

the price for living in a democracy is voting. dont like it? leave. the arguments for voluntary voting can pretty much be summed up as 'others do it' (primary school argment), laziness and bloody-mindedness. I would happily have voluntary voting as long as it also meant you were deprived of any govt benefits like other non-citizens.

happy now?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:22pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:36pm:
the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.


It could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have otherwise done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.

In other words, compulsory voting leads to the Anna Bligh syndrome.

If democracy includes dragging people to the poll who are only voting because they have to, then I don't care what they call it - it's over-rated.


Quote:
'others do it' (primary school argment),


It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration. 

Now if you're saying that considering the position of the majority is just a primary school argument, then by implication, you imply that the argument for democracy itself is a primary school argument.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:26pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:22pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:36pm:
the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.


I could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.

In other words, compulsory voting leads to the Anna Bligh syndrome.

If democracy includes dragging people to the poll who are only voting because they have to, then I don't care what they call it - it's over-rated.


Quote:
'others do it' (primary school argment),


It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration. 

Now if you're saying that considering the position of the majority is just a primary school argument, then by implication, you imply that the argument for democracy itself is a primary school argument.


why? to pose the 'mother of a primary school kid question'... would you impose the death penalty because they do?? the proper question is rather 'what about voluntary voting in these countries makes it better than ours'? since in almost every respect this country is superior to these other democracies, appealing to their experience is the opposite argument you aer trying to make.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:31pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:22pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:36pm:
the trap in voluntary voting is that it creates an opportunity for political parties to gather in the unwilling and uninterested to vote for them regardless of policy. it turns parties from providers of policy to providers of buss services to polls from districts that support them.


It could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have otherwise done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.

In other words, compulsory voting leads to the Anna Bligh syndrome.

If democracy includes dragging people to the poll who are only voting because they have to, then I don't care what they call it - it's over-rated.


Quote:
'others do it' (primary school argment),


It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration. 




Our system is as good or better than any of them and how good is it to be different.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:34pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:16pm:
KJT1981

Quote:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.


I agree that it's inaccurate. Of course it wasn't my statement.

Quote:
Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.


... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico  and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:37pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:31pm:
Our system is as good or better than any of them and how good is it to be different.


- but not just for the sake of being different.

Our system may well be better that theirs overall. We're not discussing other aspects of their democracy. We're just talking about the issue of compulsory voting.

It's a non sequitor argument. If the police stopped you in the road and said that you had a faulty rear light, would you take offense and say - "my car is far better than yours overall" ? We're not talking about the system. We're talking about compulsory voting only.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:45pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:26pm:
why? to pose the 'mother of a primary school kid question'... would you impose the death penalty because they do?? the proper question is rather 'what about voluntary voting in these countries makes it better than ours'? since in almost every respect this country is superior to these other democracies, appealing to their experience is the opposite argument you aer trying to make.


I wouldn't.  All I said was that it was a valid reason to make it worthy of consideration.

Obviously when poiitical anaysts consider compulsory voting to be a negative in the democracy index, then we should at least sit up and start to question the status quo.

Australia is currently 8th in the Democracy Index listings. That's something to be proud of. If there is a way we can improve our democracy further, then we should certainly consider it with an open mind.


Quote:
and best of all... Democracy demands just ONE THING. just one thing. vote. and that is so damned hard for you???


I don't believe that democracy necessarily demands compulsory voting. Are you saying that the US, Canada and the UK are not democracies because they don't demand compulsory voting?

For your interest only, this is the 2012 Democracy index ranking:

1 Sweden
2. Iceland
3. Netherlands
4. Norway
5. Denmark
6. Finland
7. Luxembourg
8. Australia
9. Canada
10. Switzerland
11. Ireland
12. New Zealand
13. Germany
14. Austria
15. Malta
16. Spain
17. US
18. Czech Republic
19. Portugal
20. Belgium
21. Japan
22. Greece
23. UK
24.France
25.Mauritius
26. Costa Rica
27. Slovenia
28. Uruguay

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:12pm

Quote:
Actually I'll correct myself in terms of the Democracy Index. Compulsory voting reduces the Democracy index:


Muso, finding someone on the internet who agrees with you is not the same as a rational argument.


Quote:
So if among the 31 or so democracies in the world with a democratic index of 8 or above, only 2 choose to have compulsory voting, what does that say about the democratic outcome?


Nothing. If anything, compulsory voting is over-represented at the top of the list, despite the inappropriate penalty applied for it. Not that I would be silly enough to argue that it means anything.


Quote:
It's quite ironic in this kind of discussion that you should argue that a poster is using argumentum ad populum (appeal to the majority).


I never said winning an election makes you right. The truth is not democratic.


Quote:
It could just as readily be argued that the trap in compulsory voting is that those who would have otherwise done the rest of us a favour by following their instict and not voting, can be lured into voting for (guess which party) by promises of benefits - benefits that drain the coffers of the state.


And this from someone who claims to defend democracy?


Quote:
It's not a primary school argument. The position of the vast majority of western democracies is that of voluntary voting, and that is something that's eminently worthy of consideration. 


For about 3 seconds, until you realise it is merely argumentum ad populum. It adds nothing to the debate. Most western countries use first past the post voting also. That does not make it a good idea. In fact is leads to clearly undemocratic outcomes, just like optional voting does. It is an excuse for the absence of a rational argument. For the most part these countries have the system they do by historical accident, and the people experienced in the machinations of these democracies advise strongly against it (with a rational argument in support).


Quote:
Now if you're saying that considering the position of the majority is just a primary school argument, then by implication, you imply that the argument for democracy itself is a primary school argument.


No Muso. We are saying that your argument is a primary school argument. You can imply anything you want, but in this case you are wrong again.


Quote:
It's a non sequitor argument. If the police stopped you in the road and said that you had a faulty rear light, would you take offense and say - "my car is far better than yours overall" ? We're not talking about the system. We're talking about compulsory voting only.


But it is you who is making that non-sequitor argument muso.


Quote:
Obviously when poiitical anaysts consider compulsory voting to be a negative in the democracy index


Argumentum ad populum. It might even be appeal to authority if you knew what was going on. Do you actually know their reason? Maybe they just saw the same half list that the critics presented here and decided to take the easy option.


Quote:
I don't believe that democracy necessarily demands compulsory voting.


No, but it does demand that people vote.


Quote:
Are you saying that the US, Canada and the UK are not democracies because they don't demand compulsory voting?


They have inferior democracies. There are clearly undemocratic outcomes associated with the flaws in their democracies.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:27pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:16pm:
KJT1981

Quote:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.


I agree that it's inaccurate. Of course it wasn't my statement.
[quote]

Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.


... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico  and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?
[/quote]

And your list of democratic countries above 8 has what around 28 out of 196 what's that around 14%.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by perceptions_now on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:31pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:12pm:
I never said winning an election makes you right. The truth is not democratic.


AND, having a Politically Democratic system, does not guarantee the system is TRUTHFUL, FAIR, HONEST etc. etc!

That said, it is still the best Political system, so far, although it will be subject to some enormous stresses, over the next 20-30 years and THEREFORE it will have to change or it will be changed!


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:34pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:37pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:31pm:
Our system is as good or better than any of them and how good is it to be different.


- but not just for the sake of being different.

Our system may well be better that theirs overall. We're not discussing other aspects of their democracy. We're just talking about the issue of compulsory voting.

It's a non sequitor argument. If the police stopped you in the road and said that you had a faulty rear light, would you take offense and say - "my car is far better than yours overall" ? We're not talking about the system. We're talking about compulsory voting only.


Yet you want to bias the position with your democratic index which consideres all sorts of non related matters.

It is in itself biased against manditory voting as you pointed out.

It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

It does not really measure democracy very well at all, there is no penalty measured for failure in democratic process - The USA rates well even though they recently had an election decieded in the high court, you would expect that type of event to have thrown them out the back door.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:22pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:12pm:
And this from someone who claims to defend democracy?


I though I was defending personal freedom.
In a few minor respects I think that democracy is overrated, although its much better than the alternative. (For example, if a country is on the brink of bankruptcy and the majority of people want to continue to rort the tax system, should the wishes of the majority be paramount? )


Quote:
I never said winning an election makes you right. The truth is not democratic.


That's one of them.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:25pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
Yet you want to bias the position with your democratic index which consideres all sorts of non related matters.

It is in itself biased against manditory voting as you pointed out.


First of all it's not my Democracy Index.

Quote:
It does not really measure democracy very well at all, there is no penalty measured for failure in democratic process - The USA rates well even though they recently had an election decieded in the high court, you would expect that type of event to have thrown them out the back door.


The US was well down that list.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:35pm

Quote:
I though I was defending personal freedom.


You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.


Quote:
First of all it's not my Democracy Index.


You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:46pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:27pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:34pm:
... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico  and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?


And your list of democratic countries above 8 has what around 28 out of 196 what's that around 14%.


The countries that have effective mandatory voting, with the exception of Australia and Luxembourg, are flawed democracies or worse. Do you disagree with that? The democracy index is not the only criterion for that determination. It's blatantly obvious.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by JC Denton on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:51pm
this is what dnaver said about australian democracy previously:


Quote:
I think the event showed that both major party's have complete control and can easily destroy any effective opposition to them.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:58pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:16pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:
I though I was defending personal freedom.


You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

[quote]First of all it's not my Democracy Index.


You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.[/quote]

It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy.  Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:44pm

JC Denton wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:51pm:
this is what dnaver said about australian democracy previously:


Quote:
I think the event showed that both major party's have complete control and can easily destroy any effective opposition to them.



You must have trolled really deep to find that and thanks for quoting me from probably over 12 months ago with absolutely no context pretty grubby effort in my opinion, I previously had a bit of respect for your view.

However it is completely true - the event I was talking about at the time was the manner in which both major parties’s conspired to irradiate One Nation.

I did not agree with almost anything One Nation stood for however their demise showed that when both Labor and Libs combine to place an opponent at the bottom of their preference list that opponent is extinct irrespective of how many votes they get.

Of course optional voting would change nothing in this regard except to weaken further any option other than the big 2.

Optional voting would very likely remove independents and alternate party's from our political landscape. People who currently do not Like Labor or the Liberals vote for a third option, if voting becomes optional more than likely they will not vote instead of voting a third option.

Removing diversity from our political mix would substantially damage our democracy in my opinion.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:44pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:
I though I was defending personal freedom.


You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

[quote]First of all it's not my Democracy Index.


You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.


It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy.  Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.
[/quote]

You still seem confused about whether you are defending democracy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:48pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.



Does the USA going about $15 Trillion into debt mean they are no longer a functioning democracy?

Every time there is a world recession does democracy go out the window?

I think that it is another false indicator in the list.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:51pm
Whoever these clowns are that devised the criteria seem to have done nothing more than think up a bunch of metrics that are correlated with democracy and used them as a measure rather than bothering to think about what democracy actually means.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:04pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:44pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:
I though I was defending personal freedom.


You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

[quote]First of all it's not my Democracy Index.


You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.


It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy.  Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.


You still seem confused about whether you are defending democracy.[/quote]

I'm merely discussing the issue of compulsory versus voluntary voting.

It all hinges on your expectations of a democracy and whether you regard voting as a right or a duty.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:05pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.

A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.



Does the USA going about $15 Trillion into debt mean they are no longer a functioning democracy?

Every time there is a world recession does democracy go out the window?

I think that it is another false indicator in the list.


The US is still the biggest economy in the world regardless of recession.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:08pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:51pm:
Whoever these clowns are that devised the criteria seem to have done nothing more than think up a bunch of metrics that are correlated with democracy and used them as a measure rather than bothering to think about what democracy actually means.


Have you actually read their reports? 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:14pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:05pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:48pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:58pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:34pm:
It rates all sorts of thing like how well the government performs - A huge disadvantage to poor countries. There are that many non relivant biases in the criteria that the list is almost useless.


A failed economy is an enormous barrier to democracy. You'd need to live in a poor country to appreciate that. Of course there is a disavantage to poor countries. There should be.



Does the USA going about $15 Trillion into debt mean they are no longer a functioning democracy?

Every time there is a world recession does democracy go out the window?

I think that it is another false indicator in the list.


The US is still the biggest economy in the world regardless of recession.



You miss the point, in a recession the numbers calculated would show that virtually every country would have a reduced democratic index. The world would be definitivly a less democratic place.

This is obviously untrue because there is no genuine logical link between the criteria and democracy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:15pm

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:04pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:44pm:

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:
I though I was defending personal freedom.


You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

[quote]First of all it's not my Democracy Index.


You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.


It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy.  Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.


You still seem confused about whether you are defending democracy.


I'm merely discussing the issue of compulsory versus voluntary voting.

It all hinges on your expectations of a democracy and whether you regard voting as a right or a duty. [/quote]

It sounds more like backpedaling than discussing to me.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:27pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:14pm:
You miss the point, in a recession the numbers calculated would show that virtually every country would have a reduced democratic index. The world would be definitivly a less democratic place.

This is obviously untrue because there is no genuine logical link between the criteria and democracy.


You're totally missing the point. The factor that comes into play is sovereignty. Even in the deepest of recessions, there has been no question of US sovereignty. If you compare that to Greece in recent times, it becomes obvious that democratic freedom was compromised as a result of a reduction in fiscal autonomy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:43pm

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:15pm:
It sounds more like backpedaling than discussing to me.


I'm getting back to the crux of the matter. It is a controversial issue that is coloured by regional concepts of democracy. For example an American might be amazed that we have no Bill of Rights or might regard compulsory voting as an infringement of personal liberty. Democracy, in its most general understanding means rule by the people, but that's as far as it goes. Beyond that definition there is a wide variation in interpretation.

The degree to which you rate civil liberties and personal freedoms, governance and security issues will have some bearing on your concept of democracy.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 5th, 2013 at 10:53pm

Quote:
I'm getting back to the crux of the matter. It is a controversial issue that is coloured by regional concepts of democracy.


Regional concepts of democracy? Is that something like moral relativity?


Quote:
Democracy, in its most general understanding means rule by the people, but that's as far as it goes.


People rule in every conceivable system of government. The difference with democracy is that the majority rules. Perhaps this is what you meant by regional concepts - democracy means something different in North Korea.


Quote:
The degree to which you rate civil liberties and personal freedoms, governance and security issues will have some bearing on your concept of democracy.


No it won't. It will merely have a bearing on the degree to which you rate civil liberties and personal freedoms, governance and security issues. It will not cause you to redefine the terms just because you consider them more or less important.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:46am

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 4:16pm:
KJT1981

Quote:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand. Why are adult Australians treated like children?


This was the statment addressed - it is wrong - simple as that. No BS rules change that, please just leave the goal posts where they are.


I agree that it's inaccurate. Of course it wasn't my statement.
[quote]

Like it or not there are over 20 with manditory voting in their legislation.


... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico  and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?
[/quote]


Nice how none of them are 'western' democracies, south amercian dictatorships, african sh1tholes and middle eastern backwaters, all one minute from being taken over by a military coup.

Nice company we keep.


Oppressive governments drive political legitimacy from high voter turn out, why bother with basic human right when punishment produces higher numbers of voters.




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:37am
This seems a ratehr over-the-top thread. in the end it is ONLY about voting which is at worst a minor inconvenience. compared to doing tax returns - another obligation - it is indeed trivial Our democractic freedoms require a lot of things from us. The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile. there is no such thing.

The day that voting is too onerous a duty to comprehend is the day you have totally lost the plot.

I presume you consider the obligation to pay your bills to be a breach of your fundamental rights. Voting is just the same - paying your bill for the democracy you live in.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:20am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:37am:
This seems a ratehr over-the-top thread. in the end it is ONLY about voting which is at worst a minor inconvenience. compared to doing tax returns - another obligation - it is indeed trivial Our democractic freedoms require a lot of things from us. The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile. there is no such thing.

The day that voting is too onerous a duty to comprehend is the day you have totally lost the plot.

I presume you consider the obligation to pay your bills to be a breach of your fundamental rights. Voting is just the same - paying your bill for the democracy you live in.




It's not about people being too lazy to vote. It's a matter of choice, we are not given a choice.

I would love nothing better than to tick the box

"None of the above"

but I don't get a choice because our pollies are too afraid of the truth, they expect us to vote for one or the other, which is forcing the issue.

Don't start with the old rant about being able to vote for any of the candidates in my electorate, the vote inevitably goes back to libs or labor.

I will vote when I get to officially vote for none of them.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:43am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:37am:
This seems a ratehr over-the-top thread. in the end it is ONLY about voting which is at worst a minor inconvenience. compared to doing tax returns - another obligation - it is indeed trivial Our democractic freedoms require a lot of things from us. The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile. there is no such thing.


In the US, they would probably say that choosing whether or not to vote is part of their democratic freedom.


Quote:
The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile.


Correct, but irrelevant. The issue is about compulsory voting, nothing else. 

"It's a matter of democratic freedom whether you vote or not"

It's a position held with many Americans. Now, are you saying that's an infantile view?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:46am

Quote:
Nice how none of them are 'western' democracies, south amercian dictatorships, african sh1tholes and middle eastern backwaters, all one minute from being taken over by a military coup.


Oh dear. He still isn't even aware of the rest of the list.


Quote:
It's not about people being too lazy to vote. It's a matter of choice, we are not given a choice.

I would love nothing better than to tick the box

"None of the above"


Pansi, you can always write that box on the ballot paper and tick it. Or draw a picture of a donkey. So there you go, you have that choice.


Quote:
but I don't get a choice because our pollies are too afraid of the truth, they expect us to vote for one or the other, which is forcing the issue.


When was the last time there were only two candidates on your ballot paper?


Quote:
Don't start with the old rant about being able to vote for any of the candidates in my electorate, the vote inevitably goes back to libs or labor.


Pansi, this is because it is nearly always Liberal or Labor that gets elected. This does not mean you do not have a choice to vote for other candidates. It merely means that they lose because they are unpopular. If it helps, instead of thinking of it as preferential voting, think of it as a series of runoff elections. This is how most foreigners refer to our system - instant runoff voting. It makes a lot more sense and helps avoid some of this confusion about what your vote means.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:48am

Quote:
"It's a matter of democratic freedom whether you vote or not"


Making up new terms now eh?


Quote:
It's a position held with many Americans. Now, are you saying that's an infantile view?


It is infantile to make up new terms in order to validate your argument.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:52am

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 9:16pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 8:35pm:

Quote:
I though I was defending personal freedom.


You keep claiming that you are defending democracy.

[quote]First of all it's not my Democracy Index.


You did bring it up, and not as a freedom index. If your point was that it fails to actually measure democracy, you should have said so.


It's the Economist Intelligence Unit's Index. Freedom generally goes hand in hand with democracy.  Freedom of the press and freedom of association are examples of this.
[/quote]

Freedom of the press

What about examples like the current Australia where we have a commercial press trying to drive the outcome of elections?

Do the press not then become an anti democratic force?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:57am
I would think that of the people who support optional voting under ten percent would be driven by their belief on democracy and over ninety percent would be interested because they perceive an advantage for their political preference.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:58am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:46am:

muso wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 5:34pm:
... including countries such as Libya, Lebanon, Egypt, Mexico  and Thailand. About 20 out of 196. What's that - about 10%?



Nice how none of them are 'western' democracies, south amercian dictatorships, african sh1tholes and middle eastern backwaters, all one minute from being taken over by a military coup.

Nice company we keep.

Oppressive governments drive political legitimacy from high voter turn out, why bother with basic human right when punishment produces higher numbers of voters.


Exactly. By the way, do you know what Singapore does if a person doesn't vote? They remove them from the register.  ;D  Kinda defeats the purpose.

Highlighted section - Apart from Luxembourg - and Belgium if you go back to pre 2003.

It's also interesting that many countries which used to have  compulsory voting have subsequently dropped it, in some cases when they became legitimate democracies. These are:

Austria(1925), The Netherlands(1970), Spain(1923), Venezuela(1993) and Chile (2009).

We should look at their reasons for doing so.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 10:01am

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:48am:

Quote:
"It's a matter of democratic freedom whether you vote or not"


Making up new terms now eh?

[quote]It's a position held with many Americans. Now, are you saying that's an infantile view?


It is infantile to make up new terms in order to validate your argument.
[/quote]

It's hardly new. The US constitution predates that of Australia.

Hang on - are you saying that I made up the term Democratic Freedom? It's a term that has been in use since the days of Thomas Jefferson. 

Here's an example of where Democratic Freedom is discussed. Do you think that Hawaii University is infantile now? It's a pretty standard term.
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WF.CHAP3.HTM

Here are 15,600 University sites where the term Democratic Freedom is used.
http://www.google.com.au/search?as_q=&as_epq=democratic+freedom&as_oq=&as_eq=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&lr=&cr=&as_qdr=all&as_sitesearch=.edu&as_occt=any&safe=images&tbs=&as_filetype=&as_rights=

There are 650 results for "Democratic Freedom" from  .edu.au

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 10:12am

Quote:
Do the press not then become an anti democratic force?


So long as there is diversity in the press it should not matter so much. The internet is starting to provide that now, I hope. However the downside is that the internet makes news even less profitable, so we may end up with fewer 'professional' news providers.


Quote:
It's hardly new. The US constitution predates that of Australia.


Somehow I doubt their constitution uses such a vague and meaningless term. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by 'democratic freedom' and how it is relevant?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 10:17am

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 10:12am:

Quote:
It's hardly new. The US constitution predates that of Australia.


Somehow I doubt their constitution uses such a vague and meaningless term. Perhaps you would like to explain what you mean by 'democratic freedom' and how it is relevant?


I expanded on the post while you were posting. It's hardly a vague and meaningless term as you can see. Heck, it's a term that was even used by Aristotle.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 10:35am
You expanded on the use of the term, but said nothing at all about what it means. Do you know what those other people meant by the term? Did you intend to imply any meaning, beyond equating democracy and freedom?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:04am
It means the difference between a "liberal democracy" and an "electoral democracy".  A purely electoral democracy without the freedom is a democracy in name only. It goes through the motions of electing representatives.

We live in a liberal democracy, which means that we have certain democratic freedoms such as Freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom to form political parties.... etc

Some of these freedoms are not legislated in Australia, but they exist nonetheless.


Quote:
Did you intend to imply any meaning, beyond equating democracy and freedom?


Now who's using primary school arguments? Of course they are different, but they are concepts that go hand in hand.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:18am
Is the concept relevant to compulsory voting in any way?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:26am
just vote you lazy buggers... You'd think you were being asked to do something onerous. it is the price you pay for democracy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:54am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:26am:
just vote you lazy buggers... You'd think you were being asked to do something onerous. it is the price you pay for democracy.



The problem is there is no candidate worth my vote.

Put up a respectable, honest, transparent politician and I'll vote for them, ten times even. I refuse to vote for bad and badder  :)

Having a system where people turn up and tick the first name on the box is stupid.

Better still, have a referendum where I get to vote on compulsory/non-compulsory voting and I will vote ten times.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:57am

Quote:
The problem is there is no candidate worth my vote.


Voting is not a measure of worth pansi. You are only asked to give a relative rating, not an endorsement.

You cannot choose to not have a government just because you disapprove of the candidates who are running, so it would be absurd to put that option on the ballot.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by buzzanddidj on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:57am

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.




For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters


IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy







Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:00pm
Sounds like Joyce is using the same argument many here have - optional voting encourages irrational over rational voters. It leads to over-representation of the highly excitable minorities.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:00pm
It is good to see people recognising that optional voting undermines democracy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:01pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.




For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters


IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy



actually dimwit, it has been suggested by both sides of politics at one time or other. no analyst is certian of which side it woudl favour if indeed any. the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.

expect more intelligence than this from you, buzzard.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:02pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:26am:
just vote you lazy buggers... Yaou'd think you were being asked to do something onerous. it is the price you pay for democracy.



1.5 million Australian voters say no thanks  ;D


Many, many democracies in first world countries reject a system that forces people against their will to the polls and they function just fine so any argument that compulsory voting the only sure way to have a democracy is patently false by any standard.

The only thing that will have is the sheeple so used to being told what to do will have to think for themselves and scumbag pollies won't be scamming the Aussie taxpayer at every election.




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:03pm
It's right that people should vote but it's still a pain in the arse.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:19pm

Quote:
Many, many democracies in first world countries reject a system that forces people against their will to the polls and they function just fine


Many dictatorships also manage to 'function' just fine. I would hope that Australians might set the bar a bit higher for democracy.


Quote:
so any argument that compulsory voting the only sure way to have a democracy is patently false by any standard


Bigol would you like to address any of the arguments people have actually made, instead of making up your own to counter?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:20pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
It is good to see people recognising that optional voting undermines democracy.


If you're talking about the poll, it shows that most people think that compulsary voting makes the system less democratic or or makes no difference to democracy. Currently it's 7 to 4 with 3 on the fence.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:25pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:18am:
Is the concept relevant to compulsory voting in any way?


Yes it is.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:30pm
I still dont get why you lazy sods find the concept of voting such an unfair obligation? does it stretch your tiny minds to omuch to have to actually make a decision? Or is the problem that you are so self-centred that voting - which is about the larger picture - is of no interest to you?

The argument of being onerous is ridiculous.
the argument from other countries is pitifiul since by almost every measuer we are better than the vast amjority

so what is it?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:32pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
I still dont get why you lazy sods find the concept of voting such an unfair obligation? does it stretch your tiny minds to omuch to have to actually make a decision? Or is the problem that you are so self-centred that voting - which is about the larger picture - is of no interest to you?

The argument of being onerous is ridiculous.
the argument from other countries is pitifiul since by almost every measuer we are better than the vast amjority

so what is it?


Dear Longweekend,
The answer is simple:

Because the end result is either Labor or Liberal & they are both useless.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:34pm
Its that all of the choices are bad and it doesnt matter which one you pick you get one of them.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:37pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:00pm:
Sounds like Joyce is using the same argument many here have - optional voting encourages irrational over rational voters. It leads to over-representation of the highly excitable minorities.


It's easily countered by the argument that you're forcing people to go through the act of voting, and that includes  people who will either choose a candidate at random or  vote informal just to escape a fine. It's hardly adding any additional rational element to the table. I'd delete the word excitable and substitute "rational", meaning those people who want to participate and are consequently willing to think it through carefully.

Apart from that, the turnout itself is considered to be a measure of the effectiveness of government. If it's artificially high (by compulsory voting) it masks that measure of effectiveness.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:42pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
I still dont get why you lazy sods find the concept of voting such an unfair obligation? does it stretch your tiny minds to omuch to have to actually make a decision? Or is the problem that you are so self-centred that voting - which is about the larger picture - is of no interest to you?

The argument of being onerous is ridiculous.


WHo made that argument? Whose argument are you countering here? I may be wrong, but nobody has made the argument that it is onerous as far as I am aware.  Did somebody here say "damn, it's such a burden having to vote?" and I missed it?


Quote:
the argument from other countries is pitifiul since by almost every measuer we are better than the vast amjority


Again, it's a non sequitor. Most people would not consider the issue of compulsory voting to be  central to any measure of being "better" or "worse". Would you? I certainly wouldn't.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:44pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

Quote:
Many, many democracies in first world countries reject a system that forces people against their will to the polls and they function just fine


Many dictatorships also manage to 'function' just fine. I would hope that Australians might set the bar a bit higher for democracy.

[quote]so any argument that compulsory voting the only sure way to have a democracy is patently false by any standard


Bigol would you like to address any of the arguments people have actually made, instead of making up your own to counter?[/quote]


You haven't actually made one, constantly repeating a latin phrase in an incorrect context isn't an argument.


BTW, this is a reply to longy, so I think bugger off may be an appropriate reply to you post there FD


Make your argument clearly concisely and without all the 'tricky latin' stuff and you may not have rely on the 'you don't understand my argument' retort as much; or the constant need to burtt into other people's conversations.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by buzzanddidj on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:47pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.




For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters


IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy



the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.


Who said ALL ?

It has been WELL documented as FACT in the UK
I lived with a household of Labour campaigners at the time of Thatcher's first election win
They all prayed for good weather on election day, as traditional Labour voters were LESS likely to own a motor vehicle - therefore LESS likely to vote if it was a sh!t of a day, outside
A small percentage - mind you - but a small percentage is generally what makes ( ... or breaks) a government

Of people who DO work on Saturdays ( ... retail shop assistants, hospitality workers, building industry, etc. ) ...

Do you think they'd be more likely to for the ALP or the LibNats ?


( ... bear in mind, their partners are ALSO tied up all day Saturday - at home with young kids) 



The above is VERIFIED by general RIGHT wing support for non-compulsory voting - and general LEFT wing opposition - the world over




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:47pm
Big_idiot,
Quote:
bugger off may be an appropriate reply to you post there FD


Big - tells the owner of the forum to f. off. 

I think he'll be having a holiday.  ;D

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:52pm

Sir Bobby wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:47pm:
Big_idiot,
Quote:
bugger off may be an appropriate reply to you post there FD


Big - tells the owner of the forum to f. off. 

I think he'll be having a holiday.  ;D



Like being banned from retard central is going to have an adverse effect on my life.


Maybe changing the attitude that causes a person to tell you to bugger off would be better.





Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:53pm
For what it's worth, I don't think it's a valid argument that the Greens supporters are more likely to vote either, because a sizeable proportion of them are swinging voters, or ALP voters who felt disenfranchised when the ALP veered to the right. 

Not all Greens voters are as motivated as you might be by a long shot.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:57pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:52pm:

Sir Bobby wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:47pm:
Big_idiot,
Quote:
bugger off may be an appropriate reply to you post there FD


Big - tells the owner of the forum to f. off. 

I think he'll be having a holiday.  ;D



Like being banned from retard central is going to have an adverse effect on my life.


Maybe changing the attitude that causes a person to tell you to bugger off would be better.


Happy holiday from cyber space    Big_clown.   ;D

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 1:19pm

Quote:
If you're talking about the poll, it shows that most people think that compulsary voting makes the system less democratic or or makes no difference to democracy.


Yes Muso that is what I meant by undermining democracy.


Quote:
Yes it is.


Can you explain how? Is this where you attempt to argue that allowing minorities to dictate the outcomes is somehow essential for democracy to function?


Quote:
Because the end result is either Labor or Liberal & they are both useless.


That is not a rational argument Bobby. You don't have to consider either useful to vote.


Quote:
Its that all of the choices are bad and it doesnt matter which one you pick you get one of them.


Likewise SOB, you do not need to regard any of the choices as good in order to vote. There is no 'good' and 'bad' box.


Quote:
It's easily countered by the argument that you're forcing people to go through the act of voting, and that includes  people who will either choose a candidate at random or  vote informal just to escape a fine.


How does voting informally 'counter' the argument?


Quote:
It's hardly adding any additional rational element to the table.


I thought that bit was obvious - it undermines democracy by allowing minorities to dictate the outcome.


Quote:
WHo made that argument? Whose argument are you countering here? I may be wrong, but nobody has made the argument that it is onerous as far as I am aware.  Did somebody here say "damn, it's such a burden having to vote?" and I missed it?


Yes. All the people who claim there are no 'good' choices are basically saying that choosing between options is too onerous unless one is clearly better than the others. They just no better than to phrase it as "I am too lazy to make the choice."


Quote:
Again, it's a non sequitor. Most people would not consider the issue of compulsory voting to be  central to any measure of being "better" or "worse". Would you? I certainly wouldn't.


Muso you have used the argument about other countries plenty of times.


Quote:
You haven't actually made one, constantly repeating a latin phrase in an incorrect context isn't an argument.


Bigol, if your argument falls apart on logic, it is sufficient to merely point this out. If you can't be bothered putting together a rational argument it is a bit rich to demand others put together a more meaningful counterargument.


Quote:
BTW, this is a reply to longy, so I think bugger off may be an appropriate reply to you post there FD


If you post something stupid on this forum, people are going to point it out, even if you addressed it to someone else.


Quote:
Make your argument clearly concisely and without all the 'tricky latin' stuff


You mean like I did in the opening post? BTW, I also posted a link to an article with plain English descriptions of your logical fallacies.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 1:54pm
Bobby

Quote:
Because the end result is either Labor or Liberal & they are both useless.




FD,

Quote:
That is not a rational argument Bobby. You don't have to consider either useful to vote.


FD,
The trouble is that even though you don't like either - one will win -
& it could be thanks to 1000s of people who didn't want to vote.
I suppose - that's our democracy.
We don't have a better system as yet.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by buzzanddidj on Jan 6th, 2013 at 1:55pm

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 4th, 2013 at 9:03am:
It is not compulsory in any other Western country - not the US or Canada or Britain or, across the ditch, in New Zealand.

Why are adult Australians treated like children?



To the CONTRARY - being made to face responsibility is part of being an ADULT, not a CHILD

Their is some kind of belief we should aspire to follow "the greatest democracy in the world" in this matter

Perhaps we should go "all the way with the USA" as an economic basket-case - as WELL - with some American gun culture thrown in, for good measure ?

Just because "everyone ELSE does it" - hardly makes it best practice




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:22pm

Quote:
The trouble is that even though you don't like either - one will win -


There can only be one winner bobby. Democracy does not equate to everyone getting their way. Not voting is not going to change this. In fact it will reinforce it.


Quote:
& it could be thanks to 1000s of people who didn't want to vote


If you are referring to people who like yourself worry that their vote ends up with a major party, don't despair, as the duopoly of the two major parties is not at all attributed to people such as yourself. Rather, it is attribtuable to their primary vote base - ie to their popularity. So the outcome is entirely democratic. Preferential voting, and compulsory voting to a lesser extent, help to undermine the two party duopoly, or at least not reinforce it as many of the foreign systems do.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by perceptions_now on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:46pm

Sir Bobby wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:32pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
I still dont get why you lazy sods find the concept of voting such an unfair obligation? does it stretch your tiny minds to omuch to have to actually make a decision? Or is the problem that you are so self-centred that voting - which is about the larger picture - is of no interest to you?

The argument of being onerous is ridiculous.
the argument from other countries is pitifiul since by almost every measuer we are better than the vast amjority

so what is it?


Dear Longweekend,
The answer is simple:

Because the end result is either Labor or Liberal & they are both useless.


Then VOTE OUT THE INCUMBENT, at the very least it will put them on notice!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:51pm
FD,

Quote:
Preferential voting, and compulsory voting to a lesser extent, help to undermine the two party duopoly, or at least not reinforce it as many of the foreign systems do.



HI FD,
Yes - I agree,
In our system the Greens hold the balance of power in the Senate & this
may have stopped Labor from some of it's excesses.
It will also hold Abbott to account when he gets in.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:52pm
Percep,

Quote:
Then VOTE OUT THE INCUMBENT, at the very least it will put them on notice!


And put in power another pig with his snout in the trough - good idea.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:53pm
I think you are referring to proportional representation there bobby.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:54pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:53pm:
I think you are referring to proportional representation there bobby.



Yes - sorry.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by perceptions_now on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:06pm

Sir Bobby wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 2:52pm:
Percep,

Quote:
Then VOTE OUT THE INCUMBENT, at the very least it will put them on notice!


And put in power another pig with his snout in the trough - good idea.


Probably, BUT IF they can't guarantee continuity, THEN they MAY start to pay us a little more attention?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:06pm

Sir Bobby wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:32pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
I still dont get why you lazy sods find the concept of voting such an unfair obligation? does it stretch your tiny minds to omuch to have to actually make a decision? Or is the problem that you are so self-centred that voting - which is about the larger picture - is of no interest to you?

The argument of being onerous is ridiculous.
the argument from other countries is pitifiul since by almost every measuer we are better than the vast amjority

so what is it?


Dear Longweekend,
The answer is simple:

Because the end result is either Labor or Liberal & they are both useless.


and if that is how you feel then you guarantee it wil never change by refusing to vote.

"Change is only effected by those that SHOW UP."

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:08pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:42pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:30pm:
I still dont get why you lazy sods find the concept of voting such an unfair obligation? does it stretch your tiny minds to omuch to have to actually make a decision? Or is the problem that you are so self-centred that voting - which is about the larger picture - is of no interest to you?

The argument of being onerous is ridiculous.


WHo made that argument? Whose argument are you countering here? I may be wrong, but nobody has made the argument that it is onerous as far as I am aware.  Did somebody here say "damn, it's such a burden having to vote?" and I missed it?


Quote:
the argument from other countries is pitifiul since by almost every measuer we are better than the vast amjority


Again, it's a non sequitor. Most people would not consider the issue of compulsory voting to be  central to any measure of being "better" or "worse". Would you? I certainly wouldn't.


so the reason for not wanting to vote is not more than that it is compulsory??? Ive seen no one come up with an even half-way meaningul reason for not voting. So far laziness is the main opinion being offered.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:12pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.




For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters


IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy



the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.


Who said ALL ?

It has been WELL documented as FACT in the UK
I lived with a household of Labour campaigners at the time of Thatcher's first election win
They all prayed for good weather on election day, as traditional Labour voters were LESS likely to own a motor vehicle - therefore LESS likely to vote if it was a sh!t of a day, outside
A small percentage - mind you - but a small percentage is generally what makes ( ... or breaks) a government

Of people who DO work on Saturdays ( ... retail shop assistants, hospitality workers, building industry, etc. ) ...

Do you think they'd be more likely to for the ALP or the LibNats ?


( ... bear in mind, their partners are ALSO tied up all day Saturday - at home with young kids) 



The above is VERIFIED by general RIGHT wing support for non-compulsory voting - and general LEFT wing opposition - the world over


do you really want to claim that labor supporters are less likely to own a car??? it might have been true in the economic cot-case that was Thatchers Britian but in australia today the household without a car would be an extremely rare sight.

and it was only last decade that at least one state labor govt considered voluntary voting but got cold feet because there was no comclusive evidience which side it woudl advantage. Naturally, of course the notion of good vs bad never entered into it.

You argument is out of date.

BTW I support compulsory voting even though I suspect voluntary voting would advantage the Libs. Thats becaue I find most nominally labor supporters to be lazy disinterested dopes more likely to be sleeping one off on a sat morning than voting.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:40pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:08pm:
so the reason for not wanting to vote is not more than that it is compulsory??? Ive seen no one come up with an even half-way meaningul reason for not voting. So far laziness is the main opinion being offered.


You're obviously not reading the arguments I put forward.

Pansi also said that it was a question of individual choice and had nothing to do with laziness.

To say that anybody here put forward an argument relating to laziness is just plain lazy.

It shows that you're not even reading the posts. I'd summarise but you probably wouldn't read that either. 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:49pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 1:19pm:

Quote:
If you're talking about the poll, it shows that most people think that compulsory voting makes the system less democratic or or makes no difference to democracy.


Yes Muso that is what I meant by undermining democracy.


So you believe that the current system of compulsory voting undermines democracy?

Fair enough, but it's a major turnaround for you. Personally, I think it makes only a marginal difference if any.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:59pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:40pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:08pm:
so the reason for not wanting to vote is not more than that it is compulsory??? Ive seen no one come up with an even half-way meaningul reason for not voting. So far laziness is the main opinion being offered.


You're obviously not reading the arguments I put forward.

Pansi also said that it was a question of individual choice and had nothing to do with laziness.

To say that anybody here put forward an argument relating to laziness is just plain lazy.

It shows that you're not even reading the posts. I'd summarise but you probably wouldn't read that either. 


Im staying with 'lazy' as the domininant reason. Ive read the so-called arguments and they are pitiful. Since when was 'choice' a issue in the major activities of a democracy? there are a hell of a lot of other things i would 'choose' not to do  long before voting so  how does voting get a mention? Would you choose to pay taxes if it were voluntary?

nope. I will stay with laziness or bloody-mindedness. Nothing else fits the argument given how pititifully small the duty to vote is.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:06pm

Quote:
Since when was 'choice' a issue in the major activities of a democracy?


Choice is another way of saying  freedom, and freedom is a big ticket issue in any democracy. Virtually every other major industrialised country is concerned about democratic freedom and the advantage of a "liberal democracy" over an electoral democracy.

Of course FD hadn't heard of "Democratic Freedom" either. He accused me of making the term up. He obviously hasn't read Thomas Jefferson or Aristotle for that matter. Maybe that's why he changed his mind when I explained it to him.

Democracy is concerned with a great many more things than the detail of an electoral system. You can have the best electoral system in the world, but if it doesn't provide basic democratic freedoms then it's a token democracy.

We are lucky in this country, simply because (unlike FD) some people do understand the concept of democratic freedom, and our democracy is a pretty good one.

Quite frankly, I think there are bigger fish to fry than compulsory voting.  At least we've moved to optional preferential voting for some elections in Queensland.  It's a step in the right direction, but that's a different subject.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:30pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:06pm:

Quote:
Since when was 'choice' a issue in the major activities of a democracy?


Choice is another way of saying  freedom, and freedom is a big ticket issue in any democracy. Virtually every other major industrialised country is concerned about democratic freedom and the advantage of a "liberal democracy" over an electoral democracy.

Of course FD hadn't heard of "Democratic Freedom" either. He accused me of making the term up. He obviously hasn't read Thomas Jefferson or Aristotle for that matter. Maybe that's why he changed his mind when I explained it to him.

Democracy is concerned with a great many more things than the detail of an electoral system. You can have the best electoral system in the world, but if it doesn't provide basic democratic freedoms then it's a token democracy.

We are lucky in this country, simply because (unlike FD) some people do understand the concept of democratic freedom, and our democracy is a pretty good one.

Quite frankly, I think there are bigger fish to fry than compulsory voting.  At least we've moved to optional preferential voting for some elections in Queensland.  It's a step in the right direction, but that's a different subject.


that's pretty much my entire point. I cant see how the question of compulsory voting even makes it to anyone's agenda. of all the things you are required to do that you find unpleasant, onerous or even just plain unfair, does voting make the top 100? The price of home ownership is maintenance and I don't particulalry like it. Doesn't mean I think it is unreasonable to make me do it. The price of democracy is voting and I don't care one jot if you like it or not. It is part of the price of living in arguably the worlds most stable and democratic country.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by buzzanddidj on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:46pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 5th, 2013 at 7:12am:
I am moving back to England this year and this will be the last move for some time now.

I have to go to Europe it's where my family are, hence the twice yearly flight is a killer in both cost and distance.

Unless you fly China Eastern which I really don't recommend.



SPEAKING of good airlines ...


Quote:
Last year, Time magazine declared Totnes the capital of new age chic. Then, just last month, Highlife, the British Airways magazine, declared it third of the world's Top 10 Funky Towns, alongside Daylesford (1) in Victoria and Tiradentes (2) in Brazil.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2005/may/08/britishidentity.ethicalliving


... which was interesting, surprising, good & bad
I wasn't aware the typical British Airways patron would have even HEARD of my little hamlet, let alone declare it #1 in the world - in the "funky" department

But, in reality, we're chasing the Japanese and newly cashed up Chinese tourist dollars
They NEVER expect spotted dick, toad in the hole - and Sainsbury's Salad Cream, in our world class restaurants - and don't mind parting with a yuan - or yen - or two





Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:55pm

Quote:
You're obviously not reading the arguments I put forward.


You mean the ones that seem to rely on finding ever more elaborate ways to mangle the definitions of democracy and freedom?


Quote:
Pansi also said that it was a question of individual choice and had nothing to do with laziness.


I think that even she claimed to be 'unable' to tell the major aprties apart.


Quote:
So you believe that the current system of compulsory voting undermines democracy?


No Muso, the opposite.


Quote:
Personally, I think it makes only a marginal difference if any.


You are confusing the short term and long term outcomes. These saorts of flaws reinforce each other. The US is a good example. They very few minor parties and independents. The main reason being that people who would actually support them vote for the major parties so as not to 'waste their vote.' This not only results in poor electoral outcomes for minor parties - eventually they either cease to exist, or are so diminished in a political sense they may as well not be there, which of course reinforces people's unwuillingness to vote for them. Likewise, optional voting will not result in the same two major parties putting more focus on preaching to the converted and winding up the highly excitable minorities from their own side of the spectrum. It will eventually result in two fundamentally different major parties that do this.


Quote:
Choice is another way of saying  freedom


You do not have a choice as to whether there is a government, so claiming that you don't like the choices offered on the ballot is rpetty meaningless. You still end up with one of them. There is no 'anarchy' box to tick.


Quote:
and freedom is a big ticket issue in any democracy


There you go, trying to conflate the two issues again. You still haven't explained how this issue is relevant to 'democratic freedom'. Did you just throw that in because it was a nice sounding buzzword?


Quote:
Virtually every other major industrialised country is concerned about democratic freedom and the advantage of a "liberal democracy" over an electoral democracy.


Muso haven't you just been explaining how silly this appeal to foreign countries is?


Quote:
Democracy is concerned with a great many more things than the detail of an electoral system.


Democracy means rule of the majority. Nothing more. You have even attempted to argue that it means as little as rule by 'the people'.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by buzzanddidj on Jan 6th, 2013 at 5:15pm

Sir Bobby wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:03pm:
It's right that people should vote but it's still a pain in the arse.




An hour of your time - once every three years - is a "pain in the arse" in determining the future of your country ?


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by buzzanddidj on Jan 6th, 2013 at 5:32pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.




For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters


IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy



the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.


Who said ALL ?

It has been WELL documented as FACT in the UK
I lived with a household of Labour campaigners at the time of Thatcher's first election win
They all prayed for good weather on election day, as traditional Labour voters were LESS likely to own a motor vehicle - therefore LESS likely to vote if it was a sh!t of a day, outside
A small percentage - mind you - but a small percentage is generally what makes ( ... or breaks) a government

Of people who DO work on Saturdays ( ... retail shop assistants, hospitality workers, building industry, etc. ) ...

Do you think they'd be more likely to for the ALP or the LibNats ?


( ... bear in mind, their partners are ALSO tied up all day Saturday - at home with young kids) 



The above is VERIFIED by general RIGHT wing support for non-compulsory voting - and general LEFT wing opposition - the world over


do you really want to claim that labor supporters are less likely to own a car???



YES - I DO - and I CAN


You and I mix in VERY different circles & demographics

I don't just pray for the poor - from a safe distance - in the Adelaide Hills
I mix among them - and call them my friends


Many of these friends have found car ownership financially out of the question in the past
Some of them still do NOW

If you collected a random sample of 100 non car owners, due to financial restrictions - how many do you think would be Liberal Party voters ?




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 5:52pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:55pm:

Quote:
So you believe that the current system of compulsory voting undermines democracy?


No Muso, the opposite.


I would take a close look at the poll again then. I have a feeling that you voted the wrong way around based on your previous interpretation of the results. 


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:01pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 5:32pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 3:12pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:47pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 12:01pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 11:57am:

Peter Freedman wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 12:23pm:
Newman is well aware that Labor voters are hard workers with families and often work on polling days, making voting a real effort.




For this very reason, the idea is GENERALLY lobbied for by the RIGHT of politics

So it was refreshing to see Barnaby Joyce bagging Newman's dream, the other day
His reasoning was that supporters of RAT-BAG parties ( ... One Nation, Shooter's Party, white supremest groups, etc. ) are more passionate in their determination to vote than the nonchalant ( ... read lazy) Libnat, ALP, swinging voters


IRONICALLY ( ... right wing extremists, aside) I believe non-compulsory voting would favour the GREENS - who are ALSO a very passionate group of environmentalists and humanitarians who would NEVER surrender their RIGHT TO VOTE and a voice in our democracy



the idea that all labor voters work weekends in low-paid menial jobs is about 100 years out of date.


Who said ALL ?

It has been WELL documented as FACT in the UK
I lived with a household of Labour campaigners at the time of Thatcher's first election win
They all prayed for good weather on election day, as traditional Labour voters were LESS likely to own a motor vehicle - therefore LESS likely to vote if it was a sh!t of a day, outside
A small percentage - mind you - but a small percentage is generally what makes ( ... or breaks) a government

Of people who DO work on Saturdays ( ... retail shop assistants, hospitality workers, building industry, etc. ) ...

Do you think they'd be more likely to for the ALP or the LibNats ?


( ... bear in mind, their partners are ALSO tied up all day Saturday - at home with young kids) 



The above is VERIFIED by general RIGHT wing support for non-compulsory voting - and general LEFT wing opposition - the world over


do you really want to claim that labor supporters are less likely to own a car???



YES - I DO - and I CAN


You and I mix in VERY different circles & demographics

I don't just pray for the poor - from a safe distance - in the Adelaide Hills
I mix among them - and call them my friends


Many of these friends have found car ownership financially out of the question in the past
Some of them still do NOW

If you collected a random sample of 100 non car owners, due to financial restrictions - how many do you think would be Liberal Party voters ?


one car per household... I defy you to easily find 100 of them. car ownership is as ubiquitous as the mobile phone. everyone has them. i doubt very much that they are anything like a significant portion of the community. Ive worked with a lot of poor people too. they all seem to have access to a car - usually a peice of crap, but a car nonethesess.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:04pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:55pm:
[
Muso haven't you just been explaining how silly this appeal to foreign countries is?


In a discussion about democratic systems, it makes sense to discuss democracies - and not just one. It's actually more that a bit silly to take the tunnel vision approach  - the "No! I refuse to look at any other system except Australia's" approach.

Now you're using the appeal to logical fallacies fallacy. :) It's a bit hackneyed.

- and now "Democratic Freedom" is an irrelevant term regardless of how many universities teach the subject.

Well I've got another fallacy for you - the "discarding unfavorable data fallacy." It's a sure fire way of winning arguments. (but you know that already)


Quote:
It will eventually result in two fundamentally different major parties that do this.


The evidence so far doesn't back up this assertion. If anything, the prevailing trend in the last US Election  was one of the Republicans and Democrats becoming closer in terms of policy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:24pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:04pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 4:55pm:
[
Muso haven't you just been explaining how silly this appeal to foreign countries is?


In a discussion about democratic systems, it makes sense to discuss democracies - and not just one. It's actually more that a bit silly to take the tunnel vision approach  - the "No! I refuse to look at any other system except Australia's" approach.

Now you're using the appeal to logical fallacies fallacy. :) It's a bit hackneyed.

- and now "Democratic Freedom" is an irrelevant term regardless of how many universities teach the subject.

Well I've got another fallacy for you - the "discarding unfavorable data fallacy." It's a sure fire way of winning arguments. (but you know that already)


Quote:
It will eventually result in two fundamentally different major parties that do this.


The evidence so far doesn't back up this assertion. If anything, the prevailing trend in the last US Election  was one of the Republicans and Democrats becoming closer in terms of policy.


imagein compulsory voting in the US. they'd have to set up electoral systems that worked properly and had consistent laws, required oversight etc. and the parties themsevels woudl be free to develop polcieis for the entire country instead of bussing in voters on election day from districts that support them.

The USA is a perfect example of why voluntary voting dilutes the democratic principle.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:47pm
Forcing people to vote is neither democratic or in sync with the free world.

As a resident and citizen of other countries now, I haven't bothered to vote in the last five elections.

That is my right.

I should never be told to vote.

What is this North Korea?

(I am in China right now and using their free wifi hence my choice of NK this time out of courtesy...,)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:49pm
By the way how is it that China can provide fast, free wifi and yet in Australia you pay at airports and it's slower......

I thought Australia was the developed country and this one developing????

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:53pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
By the way how is it that China can provide fast, free wifi and yet in Australia you pay at airports and it's slower......

I thought Australia was the developed country and this one developing????


way to go defining 'developed' by access to wi-fi. when china provides something else for free - FREEDOM - then you can talk. i the meantime you sound like the self-centred retard we all believe you to be.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:55pm

Quote:
self-centred retard


Another case of verbal abuse to a poster.

forgiven

namaste

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:26pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:53pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
By the way how is it that China can provide fast, free wifi and yet in Australia you pay at airports and it's slower......

I thought Australia was the developed country and this one developing????


way to go defining 'developed' by access to wi-fi. when china provides something else for free - FREEDOM - then you can talk. i the meantime you sound like the self-centred retard we all believe you to be.


Can't answer the question though can you?

Why are the Chinese providing me this access at lightening speed and for free yet in Australia you pay.

Not to mention this place is absolutely spotless clean and customer service is awesome.

The Chinese really do make the Aussies look second rate.

Why? Why is it so much better?

Your answer is freedom? Lol

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:30pm
Check your PM Andrei

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:33pm

Quote:
In a discussion about democratic systems, it makes sense to discuss democracies - and not just one.


Wouldn't it make more sense to actually discuss democracy, rather than throw out all these meaningless claims about other countries? For example you are yet to explain how 'democratic freedoms' are relevant to compulsory voting, or to justify any of your other attempts to equate democracy and freedom.


Quote:
It's actually more that a bit silly to take the tunnel vision approach  - the "No! I refuse to look at any other system except Australia's" approach.


No-one is doing that, but if you are going to use other coutnries as an example, simply stating that they do or don't have compulsory voting (the extent of your contribution) is completely meaningless.


Quote:
and now "Democratic Freedom" is an irrelevant term regardless of how many universities teach the subject


Apparently so, hence your inability to explain it's relevance.


Quote:
Well I've got another fallacy for you - the "discarding unfavorable data fallacy." It's a sure fire way of winning arguments. (but you know that already)


This might have some merit, if you could explain how the 'data' is somehow unfavourable.


Quote:
The evidence so far doesn't back up this assertion.


Yes it does.

Andrei:


Quote:
Forcing people to vote is neither democratic or in sync with the free world.


Can you explain how it is 'undemocratic'? Do you know what the term means?


Quote:
By the way how is it that China can provide fast, free wifi and yet in Australia you pay at airports and it's slower......


It's because you are up to your armpits in chinese people.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:37pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:53pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
By the way how is it that China can provide fast, free wifi and yet in Australia you pay at airports and it's slower......

I thought Australia was the developed country and this one developing????


way to go defining 'developed' by access to wi-fi. when china provides something else for free - FREEDOM - then you can talk. i the meantime you sound like the self-centred retard we all believe you to be.


Can't answer the question though can you?

Why are the Chinese providing me this access at lightening speed and for free yet in Australia you pay.

Not to mention this place is absolutely spotless clean and customer service is awesome.

The Chinese really do make the Aussies look second rate.

Why? Why is it so much better?

Your answer is freedom? Lol


and your answer is not??? is there really ANYTHING you care about other than your own needs?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by JC Denton on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:56pm
you don't pay for wifi at sydney airport.

you pay basically at every airport in the u.s.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:03pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:30pm:
Check your PM Andrei


Yes I got it and replied.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:16pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:33pm:
Apparently so, hence your inability to explain it's relevance.


You must have missed the post where I did exactly that. It refered to liberal democracies as opposed to basic electoral democracies.

It's relevant because freedom and democracy go hand in hand. Without freedom, you can't have an effective democracy. Politics 101.

- and forcing people to vote does not sit comfortably with freedom.

What do you think of Singapore's penalty for not voting ?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:22pm
I wish I could send Andrei a PM ... PM Julia Gillard that is  ;D

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:27pm
Yes. Julia Gillard has as much of a clue concerning Democratic Freedom as FD has.

In Australia, there are many examples of the nanny state in action.  If we ride a pushbike, we must wear a helmet. We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines, children are not allowed any risk whatsoever in their lives, and of course we really must force people to vote, because after all nobody would bother otherwise.

We are over regulated in so many ways.

Australians all let us rejoice, for we are young and ..... now what was that word again?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:41pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:37pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:26pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:53pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 6:49pm:
By the way how is it that China can provide fast, free wifi and yet in Australia you pay at airports and it's slower......

I thought Australia was the developed country and this one developing????


way to go defining 'developed' by access to wi-fi. when china provides something else for free - FREEDOM - then you can talk. i the meantime you sound like the self-centred retard we all believe you to be.


Can't answer the question though can you?

Why are the Chinese providing me this access at lightening speed and for free yet in Australia you pay.

Not to mention this place is absolutely spotless clean and customer service is awesome.

The Chinese really do make the Aussies look second rate.

Why? Why is it so much better?

Your answer is freedom? Lol


and your answer is not??? is there really ANYTHING you care about other than your own needs?


Still can't answer?
Why is this country - a developing one - putting Australia - the supposed rich, developed one - to shame in customer service and provision of hi tech services at no cost???

Could it be (shock horror) that we are a bunch of apathetic, lazy people and the Chinese are not?

Sydney airport?
I saw the sign "these toilets are cleaned twice a day" in there.
You know what they do here?
There is an attendant who cleans each one after every use (from a bank of 20, Sydney has 3 if I recall).

Is it any wonder given the ready acceptance of Aussies to accept such sub standard service that they accept being marched to the polls under threat of fines????

Trolley - Melbourne $8.
Hong Kong - Free.


Shambles, bloody embarrassing 'tis.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:45pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Yes. Julia Gillard has as much of a clue concerning Democratic Freedom as FD has.

In Australia, there are many examples of the nanny state in action.  If we ride a pushbike, we must wear a helmet. We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines, children are not allowed any risk whatsoever in their lives, and of course we really must force people to vote, because after all nobody would bother otherwise.

We are over regulated in so many ways.

Australians all let us rejoice, for we are young and ..... now what was that word again?


Muso I have a William hill betting account.
It allows in game live betting. I usually do bets on goal times, half time scores etc.

I tried to place a bet in Australia on my account.

"We are sorry but this account is being accessed from an Australian IP Address. Due to Australian Government restrictions, in game betting is not allowed by law. Please place in game betting on your return to the United Kingdom.
William Hill apologizes for this inconvenience."

Young and free?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:02pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Yes. Julia Gillard has as much of a clue concerning Democratic Freedom as FD has.

In Australia, there are many examples of the nanny state in action.  If we ride a pushbike, we must wear a helmet. We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines, children are not allowed any risk whatsoever in their lives, and of course we really must force people to vote, because after all nobody would bother otherwise.

We are over regulated in so many ways.

Australians all let us rejoice, for we are young and ..... now what was that word again?




Was thinking of this just today as I slowly drove at 80k's an hour along a three lane highway with no turn offs for miles, clever folks those labor pollies though, they realise everyone is thinking WTF and driving to suit the conditions which is a lot higher than the posted limit and sure enough there it is a labor tax camera  ;D

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:22pm

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Yes. Julia Gillard has as much of a clue concerning Democratic Freedom as FD has.

In Australia, there are many examples of the nanny state in action.  If we ride a pushbike, we must wear a helmet. We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines, children are not allowed any risk whatsoever in their lives, and of course we really must force people to vote, because after all nobody would bother otherwise.

We are over regulated in so many ways.

Australians all let us rejoice, for we are young and ..... now what was that word again?



We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines

Mobile phone networks are built in a honeycomb cell structure where frequencies are re used at specifit intervals. If you up the power of a reciever you could interfere with cells using the same frequency.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:26pm

Innocent bystander wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:02pm:

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Yes. Julia Gillard has as much of a clue concerning Democratic Freedom as FD has.

In Australia, there are many examples of the nanny state in action.  If we ride a pushbike, we must wear a helmet. We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines, children are not allowed any risk whatsoever in their lives, and of course we really must force people to vote, because after all nobody would bother otherwise.

We are over regulated in so many ways.

Australians all let us rejoice, for we are young and ..... now what was that word again?




Was thinking of this just today as I slowly drove at 80k's an hour along a three lane highway with no turn offs for miles, clever folks those labor pollies though, they realise everyone is thinking WTF and driving to suit the conditions which is a lot higher than the posted limit and sure enough there it is a labor tax camera 


Not sure what State you are in but don't all these cameras belong to the states and been in place under both administrations.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:29pm

Quote:
It's relevant because freedom and democracy go hand in hand. Without freedom, you can't have an effective democracy. Politics 101.


Without some freedoms you can't, eg freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. But none of those freedoms are relevant to compulsory voting. Denying people the right to not vote does not undermine democracy in the same way that denying people the right to run for office does. It is irrelevant.

Perhaps you have a more substantial argument than 'things going hand in hand'? If you do, now would be the time.


Quote:
Sydney airport?
I saw the sign "these toilets are cleaned twice a day" in there.
You know what they do here?
There is an attendant who cleans each one after every use (from a bank of 20, Sydney has 3 if I recall).


There's a job for you when you get back home Andrei. We'll even pay you 50c a day and give you a chinese mobile phone.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by bobbythebat1 on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:30pm

hadrian_now wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:46pm:
Unless voting is completely optional then any claim to be called a democracy is a farce.
Labor demands that it should be compulsory because in normal circumstances it knows its support base will not bother to vote. It is only by dragooning the people to the booths that it feels it will get a reasonable vote, which is very similar to its views on compulsory unionism.



If that is true the Liberals would change the law to make voting non compulsory for the federal Govt.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by John Smith on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:41pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:45pm:

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 8:27pm:
Yes. Julia Gillard has as much of a clue concerning Democratic Freedom as FD has.

In Australia, there are many examples of the nanny state in action.  If we ride a pushbike, we must wear a helmet. We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines, children are not allowed any risk whatsoever in their lives, and of course we really must force people to vote, because after all nobody would bother otherwise.

We are over regulated in so many ways.

Australians all let us rejoice, for we are young and ..... now what was that word again?


Muso I have a William hill betting account.
It allows in game live betting. I usually do bets on goal times, half time scores etc.

I tried to place a bet in Australia on my account.

"We are sorry but this account is being accessed from an Australian IP Address. Due to Australian Government restrictions, in game betting is not allowed by law. Please place in game betting on your return to the United Kingdom.
William Hill apologizes for this inconvenience."

Young and free?


you should thank the govt. for preventing you from wasting your money .... William Hill and yourself must still abide by the laws of the land ..  you are free to piss of to the USA anytime you like. 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 6th, 2013 at 10:35pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm:
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.


My point is that voluntary voting undermines democracy.

About your China thing - all of what you describe can be attributed to a much denser population and people willing to work for 50c a day. I alluded to this in an earlier post. A mobile phone is much cheaper if you share the network with 1.3 billion people rather than 20 million.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 7th, 2013 at 12:45am

muso wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:43am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 7:37am:
This seems a ratehr over-the-top thread. in the end it is ONLY about voting which is at worst a minor inconvenience. compared to doing tax returns - another obligation - it is indeed trivial Our democractic freedoms require a lot of things from us. The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile. there is no such thing.


In the US, they would probably say that choosing whether or not to vote is part of their democratic freedom.


Quote:
The notion that freedom implies not being required to do anything is infantile.


Correct, but irrelevant. The issue is about compulsory voting, nothing else. 

[b]"It's a matter of democratic freedom whether you vote or not"

It's a position held with many Americans. Now, are you saying that's an infantile view?
[/b]


YES  - that is infantile.....  you look to America?  for a righteous example of democracy and 'human rights'?
Read what you just wrote MUSO.  What?? 

I prefer our 'society' to theirs  ANYDAY.
We do better for our disadvantaged than America does, even with compulsory voting and no Bill of Rights.
Which incidentally, should be the very next consideration.


OH YEAH  .. the US model of democracy represents the epitome of human political achievement...do you truly believe that???  Because we all know that the US is not a fair rational society... evidence?? the number of blacks and Latinos in custody...  The Gun Lobby....  the Republicans who were demanding that welfare benefits should be reduced, rather than the richer folk paying more tax.... even in the face of the 'FC'   - sorry can't bring myself to say that term.. :P :P

As a Queenslander I have a horror of state govts reducing human rights...  and I am not with you on this one.

I USED to think voting should be voluntary......but I do not any longer.

I agree with Freediver and Dnarever.....  we seek the benefits of 'democracy' without having any responsibility. 

When the shite hits the fan, as it is in QLD, I  feel HAPPY  that my vote was not party to their power.

Complacency is a real problem  ...it's only when it hits you,  that you begin to wonder.

So I've changed my views of recent times....
Voting is THE ONLY thing we have as the populace, to influence those we place in power over us.
The fact that it requires a minute amount of thought, and action...is a good thing... were it voluntary, only those with an agenda would vote.
That IS the OZ psyche, and the pollies that put it place ,, KNEW their people.



.













Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:22am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm:
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.


You must like the Chineese political systen then if it is producing such good results?

Are you saying that democracy is over rated?

I can not see any relivant connection between WiFi, cleanliness, the Chineese political ragime and manditory voting.

With optional v's manditory voting the major consideration in Australia relates directly to the number of tooth paste brands available and their flaviours, this to me looks like a different way of expressing what you are saying.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:33am
Test to see if posting this will force the previous post to appear.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:36am
Looks like on some threads (or intermittently) the top post listed does not appear until the next new post replaces it?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:41am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:36am:
Looks like on some threads (or intermittently) the top post listed does not appear until the next new post replaces it?


Seems to do it when the thread gets a certain number of pages in it (16?).

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by FRED. on Jan 7th, 2013 at 10:53am

Sir Bobby wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:30pm:

hadrian_now wrote on Jan 3rd, 2013 at 2:46pm:
Unless voting is completely optional then any claim to be called a democracy is a farce.
Labor demands that it should be compulsory because in normal circumstances it knows its support base will not bother to vote. It is only by dragooning the people to the booths that it feels it will get a reasonable vote, which is very similar to its views on compulsory unionism.



If that is true the Liberals would change the law to make voting non compulsory for the federal Govt.

Rudd Government Called for Submissions on Compulsory Voting in 2009.

The Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, and other political figures have all launched attacks on the Queensland government this week for daring to ask for submissions on whether Queensland should end compulsory voting.

An attack on Australian democracy some cried. A return to the Bjelke-Petersen era said others.

What no one seems to have noticed is that it was less than four years ago that the Rudd government asked for public submissions on exactly the same question.

Admittedly the Rudd government's Green Paper on the electoral system was much more wide ranging, and compulsory voting was only one amongst a vast array of questions on which the government asked for submissions.

The Rudd government's Green Paper entitled "Strengthening Australian Democracy" was more than 200 pages long with another 30 pages of annexes. You can still find it on the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet's website at this link.

The Green Paper was typical of the Rudd government. Instead of inquiring into specific issues that it wanted addressed, it launched an enquiry into every aspect of the conduct of elections in Australia. It was open ended, unfocused, and included numerous issues in which the government had no interest. As far as I can see, submissions on the green paper sank without trace and there has never been a government response.

However, the paper is a gold mine of information, ideas and sources on Australian elections. A great resource, and a wonderful starting document for more focused efforts at electoral change since.

Chapter 11 of the document deals with the conduct of the voting process. At the end of the chapter, on page 183, the paper called for submissions on the issues raised in the chapter, and then listed eight specific points for discussion. This has been reproduced below. I have highlighted two questions also referred to in the new Queensland inquiry.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:07pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:22am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm:
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.


You must like the Chineese political systen then if it is producing such good results?

Are you saying that democracy is over rated?

I can not see any relivant connection between WiFi, cleanliness, the Chineese political ragime and manditory voting.

With optional v's manditory voting the major consideration in Australia relates directly to the number of tooth paste brands available and their flaviours, this to me looks like a different way of expressing what you are saying.



Disappointing I have to point out the correlation here.

Aussies are apathetic, lazy and as a result just accept things - be it bad service, be it nanny state interference or be it being told to vote and fined if you don't.

The fact that I come to Australia and can't bet online whereas every other country in the world I have been to lately I can shows you are a nanny state.
My dad said last year when he came back from Australia "what's happened to the place. Now its don't do this, don't do that, you can't do this, can't do that. They have laws and rules for everything now and fines with it!"

Now on my comparison of strolling around China, both Beijing and Hong Kong this week. Frankly the level of service in Australia compared to the Chinese is embarrassing.
The Chinese have people on hand to help with anything, they are polite, courteous, they go out of their way to help, they staff their places correctly and the place is spotless.

Now the fact Aussies put up with being told to vote and being fined if you don't shows a level of apathy.
That level is obvious by the fact a developing world nation has standards far in excess of Australia's.

WiFi was merely the example.
The speed and cost of China's sh*ts all over the crap I got in Australia.

Are you not suitably embarrassed a developing nation is leaving you behind?

It is all interlinked. You accept being bullied to vote, you accept nanny state and you accept bad service.

You are your own worst enemies.

Still pay to use another bank's ATM?
That was taken out in the UK within 2 weeks of implementation because of customer outrage?
Australia? Nah, we'll pay it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:31pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:22am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm:
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.


You must like the Chineese political systen then if it is producing such good results?

Are you saying that democracy is over rated?

I can not see any relivant connection between WiFi, cleanliness, the Chineese political ragime and manditory voting.

With optional v's manditory voting the major consideration in Australia relates directly to the number of tooth paste brands available and their flaviours, this to me looks like a different way of expressing what you are saying.



Disappointing I have to point out the correlation here.

Aussies are apathetic, lazy and as a result just accept things - be it bad service, be it nanny state interference or be it being told to vote and fined if you don't.

The fact that I come to Australia and can't bet online whereas every other country in the world I have been to lately I can shows you are a nanny state.
My dad said last year when he came back from Australia "what's happened to the place. Now its don't do this, don't do that, you can't do this, can't do that. They have laws and rules for everything now and fines with it!"

Now on my comparison of strolling around China, both Beijing and Hong Kong this week. Frankly the level of service in Australia compared to the Chinese is embarrassing.
The Chinese have people on hand to help with anything, they are polite, courteous, they go out of their way to help, they staff their places correctly and the place is spotless.

Now the fact Aussies put up with being told to vote and being fined if you don't shows a level of apathy.
That level is obvious by the fact a developing world nation has standards far in excess of Australia's.

WiFi was merely the example.
The speed and cost of China's sh*ts all over the crap I got in Australia.

Are you not suitably embarrassed a developing nation is leaving you behind?

It is all interlinked. You accept being bullied to vote, you accept nanny state and you accept bad service.

You are your own worst enemies.

Still pay to use another bank's ATM?
That was taken out in the UK within 2 weeks of implementation because of customer outrage?
Australia? Nah, we'll pay it.



I agree with you, although you have always been quick to denigrate China, but now you've seen it for yourself as a modern new world, it seems you have changed your opinion. Human rights abuses aside, they will sort that out eventually, after all we've taken 200 years and we still have a bad reputation.

That's what I've been saying all along, the East is the new West. We've spent all our money now, so we can't advance at the rate they are, not that we ever did when the time was right and we had the money to do it.

The service is bad here, that's why I holiday in Asia, and you get more bang for your buck. You can stay for a week in a five star for what it costs for one night here.

We do seem to take being ripped off by banks as a given. The banks are laughing....all the way to the bank  :)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:33pm
This is my first visit to China and I am incredibly impressed.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:42pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:07pm:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 6:22am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:36pm:
What's your point Freediver?

Mine is that a developing country like this one is providing better services and better standards than Australia.

You can't even deny that the Chinese run it like clockwork and keep a standard of cleanliness that shames the Aussie standards.

Any wonder we accept being forced to the polls and being told all the time we can't do things.


You must like the Chineese political systen then if it is producing such good results?

Are you saying that democracy is over rated?

I can not see any relivant connection between WiFi, cleanliness, the Chineese political ragime and manditory voting.

With optional v's manditory voting the major consideration in Australia relates directly to the number of tooth paste brands available and their flaviours, this to me looks like a different way of expressing what you are saying.



Disappointing I have to point out the correlation here.

Aussies are apathetic, lazy and as a result just accept things - be it bad service, be it nanny state interference or be it being told to vote and fined if you don't.

The fact that I come to Australia and can't bet online whereas every other country in the world I have been to lately I can shows you are a nanny state.
My dad said last year when he came back from Australia "what's happened to the place. Now its don't do this, don't do that, you can't do this, can't do that. They have laws and rules for everything now and fines with it!"

Now on my comparison of strolling around China, both Beijing and Hong Kong this week. Frankly the level of service in Australia compared to the Chinese is embarrassing.
The Chinese have people on hand to help with anything, they are polite, courteous, they go out of their way to help, they staff their places correctly and the place is spotless.

Now the fact Aussies put up with being told to vote and being fined if you don't shows a level of apathy.
That level is obvious by the fact a developing world nation has standards far in excess of Australia's.

WiFi was merely the example.
The speed and cost of China's sh*ts all over the crap I got in Australia.

Are you not suitably embarrassed a developing nation is leaving you behind?

It is all interlinked. You accept being bullied to vote, you accept nanny state and you accept bad service.

You are your own worst enemies.

Still pay to use another bank's ATM?
That was taken out in the UK within 2 weeks of implementation because of customer outrage?
Australia? Nah, we'll pay it.



Ha! you are going to get hooked with Asia, I can see it coming. Nice trendy, cosmopolitan cities with happy servants, sounds right up your ally, Andrei. Get a job and stay a while, why don't you. Pay won't compare, but cost of living is a bonus.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:23pm

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Quote:
It's relevant because freedom and democracy go hand in hand. Without freedom, you can't have an effective democracy. Politics 101.


Without some freedoms you can't, eg freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. But none of those freedoms are relevant to compulsory voting. Denying people the right to not vote does not undermine democracy in the same way that denying people the right to run for office does. It is irrelevant.

Perhaps you have a more substantial argument than 'things going hand in hand'? If you do, now would be the time.


Didn't you check my previous post? I'm not going to retype it.

It might be a minor freedom (the freedom to choose whether or not to vote) and one that doesn't make a whole lot of difference when compared to the freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. 

In fact it's a small, almost indiscernable, erosion of our freedom, but when you compound all the other small indiscernable erosions of our freedom that come with the nanny state, a lot of "insignificants" make a significant.  To provide an analogy, that tiny drip in the Dutch sea dyke may well turn into a gushing torrent. Nobody likes dripping dykes.  :P

We have no guaranteed freedom of speech in Australia. No Bill of Rights as they have in the US. OK, the US is certainly no paragon of democratic freedom, but there are still one or two things that they do well.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:39pm

Dnarever wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:22pm:
We're not allowed to install a mobile phone range extender because Telstra thinks it wouldn't meet their quality guidelines

Mobile phone networks are built in a honeycomb cell structure where frequencies are re used at specifit intervals. If you up the power of a reciever you could interfere with cells using the same frequency.


The same thing applies all over the world. We're talking about very low power repeaters for use in offices where phone reception is marginal. They are installed indoors.  They have absolutely no effect on cells, and they are used to good effect in the UK, Europe, Russia, the US, China and even New Zealand. You can buy them from NZ as long as you sign a statement that they will not be installed in Australia.

Having said that, it is a great thing to come home to Australia. I remember being really annoyed at a cafe in the UK because so many things on the menu were not available, and nobody had bothered to mark them as unavailable.  Our cafes and restaurants are generally of a higher standard, but on my last trip to the UK, I was impressed that they are starting to pick up.

France is often regarded as having a good standard when it comes to foods, but the eateries at  CDG Paris are pathetic, based on my experience. There was even one assistant telling us that it was lamb, and another saying that it was veal. It was straight out of Fawlty Towers, like most of the small hotels in that country. 

So I'm not knocking Australia. I'm just saying that we should be receptive to ways that we can change for the better.   

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 7th, 2013 at 10:23pm
Here is the link to the discussion paper. For some reason it was almost impossible to google.

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/corporate/community-consultation/community-consultation-activities/current-activities/electoral-reform


Quote:
In fact it's a small, almost indiscernable, erosion of our freedom, but when you compound all the other small indiscernable erosions of our freedom that come with the nanny state, a lot of "insignificants" make a significant.  To provide an analogy, that tiny drip in the Dutch sea dyke may well turn into a gushing torrent. Nobody likes dripping dykes.


Muso, I was not asking how it is relevant to freedom. I was asking how it is relevant to democracy.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 7th, 2013 at 11:23pm
this is a thought-provoking topic.....

using the 'Democracy Index' as provided by Muso.....

Australia and Belgium,  (and one other?)
of countries with mandatory voting

out of many others,  are the only ones that could be considered 'developed nations'. I'd say if you checked other indica, mostly, we would remain relatively close , and high , in the order.

I don't think that means compulsory voting is a negative thing.
The fact that many nations 'in inter-necine conflict' want people to vote, by law, surely points to a desire to put power in the hands of the people. Thats a positive, because the people are aware that they have a right to contribute, and will look harshly on attempts to subvert that right..

  Sure Sure autocrats and dictators embrace it,  because they are relatively outside of control, and so can torture and force an election result. But these are not necessarily a rule, rather an exception.

Essentially ... they 'll lose... after lots of bloodshed... perhaps... but that's not down to whether its compulsory to vote, or not...its down to lust for power.

  But that applies in Voluntary voting states as well. Bet there are stats to show it , too. Bet there are plenty of nations with voluntary voting, or NO voting at all,  that are currently engaged in some conflict or other.
Is that a better democracy?

I begin to think that the term 'democracy' is a word with many meanings...



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 8th, 2013 at 1:41am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:42pm:
Ha! you are going to get hooked with Asia, I can see it coming. Nice trendy, cosmopolitan cities with happy servants, sounds right up your ally, Andrei. Get a job and stay a while, why don't you. Pay won't compare, but cost of living is a bonus.


My parents lived in Hong Kong (many decades back now) when dad had to work out of there but my knowledge of Asia is reasonably limited - of that I admit.

My opinion does hold though Pansi on a fair few places in SE Asia, which do need a fair bit of work on numerous fronts.

However, speaking as I find, of the People's Republic (again using their broadband here.... ;)) I have to say they have so many things right where Australia has it wrong.

Customer Service
Technical advancement
Manners
Cleanliness (Beijing is spotless it really is)
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)

In general, China is fantastic - both Hong Kong (who remain keen to point out they are HK Chinese) and Beijing itself.

Top marks from me.
Would I work here?
I need a bit more experience to answer, but right now I would say I see no reason to say no.

It does shame us in Australia that we can't match them in the most simple of things.
WiFi was only an example I gave but compare what they have here v Aussies get.
Chalk and well, its not even cheese, more like gone-off cheese.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:39am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:33pm:
This is my first visit to China and I am incredibly impressed.


the google tianemen square and see what you get. Or Falun Gong...


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:45am

muso wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 4:23pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2013 at 9:29pm:

Quote:
It's relevant because freedom and democracy go hand in hand. Without freedom, you can't have an effective democracy. Politics 101.


Without some freedoms you can't, eg freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. But none of those freedoms are relevant to compulsory voting. Denying people the right to not vote does not undermine democracy in the same way that denying people the right to run for office does. It is irrelevant.

Perhaps you have a more substantial argument than 'things going hand in hand'? If you do, now would be the time.


Didn't you check my previous post? I'm not going to retype it.

It might be a minor freedom (the freedom to choose whether or not to vote) and one that doesn't make a whole lot of difference when compared to the freedom of the press, freedom of speech, the right to run for office etc. 

In fact it's a small, almost indiscernable, erosion of our freedom, but when you compound all the other small indiscernable erosions of our freedom that come with the nanny state, a lot of "insignificants" make a significant.  To provide an analogy, that tiny drip in the Dutch sea dyke may well turn into a gushing torrent. Nobody likes dripping dykes.  :P

We have no guaranteed freedom of speech in Australia. No Bill of Rights as they have in the US. OK, the US is certainly no paragon of democratic freedom, but there are still one or two things that they do well.



Yet ironically, the US has less freedom of speech than we do. Theor Bill of Rights allows them many things including the right to be spied on by their govt without cause. My point is that unfortunately, a Bill of Rights and even a constitution ultimately guarantees nothing. The way our society is run  is what actually guarantees these rights. Chinas constitution - like USSR before it - guaranteed religious freedom and look how that turned out?

If we want freedom then we need to demand it in a practical way at every opportunity. Demanding a Bill of Rights or constiutional ammendement is not the way and is in effect the way to get LESS freedom. A codified freedom of speech will always be less than a generally understood and accepted one. A bill of Rights is as much a statement of what ISNT a right as what is. To this end, I like the way it is now. It might seem more risky and perhaps is, but in the washup it is still remarkably more free than most other places.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:13am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:
multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.


So the reason why this country is sh*tting all over the Aussies for service and quality is what then??

Like I said, people on hand to help me, polite and friendly at all times.

Not to mention safety, I walked through the centre of the capital city as safe as anything with police around keeping order.
Walk through the middle of Melbourne and Sydney on a saturday night and compare.

Sorry but Australia can learn a lot from a developing country - how sad is that?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:17am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:39am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:33pm:
This is my first visit to China and I am incredibly impressed.


the google tianemen square and see what you get. Or Falun Gong...


I have never been in the business of going to somebody's country and insulting the hosts.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:26am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?


no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:47am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:17am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:39am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 7th, 2013 at 2:33pm:
This is my first visit to China and I am incredibly impressed.


the google tianemen square and see what you get. Or Falun Gong...


I have never been in the business of going to somebody's country and insulting the hosts.


AS said Eden to Hitler.  one day, somewhere you will develop a moral centre. But no one is expecting it anytime soon.

Like most on here, I wonder if you have any moral convictions at all. Ive never actually seen one. 'AS long as it doesnt affect me..' seems to be it in a nutshell.  I disagree with most of the lefties on here but at least they CARE. But you... you dont really seem to care about anyone else anywhere, at any time.

It is almost as if you have no soul. Feel free to give me an example that disproves it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:16am
It was Chamberlain actually and I have no intention of sitting in this country and denigrating it.

Everyone has faults.

Australia has plenty and I have pointed them out.

Fining its own people and forcing them to the polls?
Yeah can't think why that hasn't caught on in the rest of the developed world.

If I can't be bothered to vote, it should be my choice to sit at home on my couch and not leave the front door on polling day. That is my choice.
Only a nanny state would tell me different.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:20am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?


no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.



But not to spell, obviously.....checkmate  :)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by The Heartless Felon on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:29am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?


no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.



But not to spell, obviously.....checkmate  :)


Dont you mean...spellcheck [smiley=cool.gif]

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:39am

The Heartless Felon wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:29am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?


no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.



But not to spell, obviously.....checkmate  :)


Dont you mean...spellcheck [smiley=cool.gif]



   :) LOL!!!!  :)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:59am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?


no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.



But not to spell, obviously.....checkmate  :)


ahve

I consistently do the same thing - its not a spelling error obviously. The left hand beat the right and the letters appeared out of order.

I try to blame the keyboard but the reality is different, I also seldom pick up this error as it really feels like you got it right and for some reason my eyes will self correct this when I read it. I even subconsciously corrected LW's error when I read it, didn't notice it was wrong till it was pointed out.

My other common error is to miss a key by 1. Something like maybe an s instead of a d.

In the end who cares, I can't criticise Mr Weekend for his spelling or punctuation (apart from the fact that it is probably better than mine).

I can more easily understand any issue with his content.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:01am

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?


no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.



But not to spell, obviously.....checkmate  :)



Actually it's a typo, you would know that, if you were educated beyond a 5th grade level.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:10am

no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.



A typo it very well might be, but a pretty silly one when your post is questioning someone's ability to read and comprehend.

It's Karma  :)

When the person trying to belittle another person is made to look like a fool.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:15am
People get all hyped up over spelling errors and typos etc.

Everyone should all agree that people can make points how they like and we can all agree as well that I am by far the best educated on this site.

Then we can move on.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:19am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:15am:
People get all hyped up over spelling errors and typos etc.

Everyone should all agree that people can make points how they like and we can all agree as well that I am by far the best educated on this site.

Then we can move on.




;D



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:03am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:16am:
It was Chamberlain actually and I have no intention of sitting in this country and denigrating it.

Everyone has faults.

Australia has plenty and I have pointed them out.

Fining its own people and forcing them to the polls?
Yeah can't think why that hasn't caught on in the rest of the developed world.

If I can't be bothered to vote, it should be my choice to sit at home on my couch and not leave the front door on polling day. That is my choice.
Only a nanny state would tell me different.


given that the reference was to people driving over other people in tanks, you yet again miss the point and probably do so because it is a moral question and you really just dont get morality.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:05am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:59am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:26am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:57am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 7:53am:

Ex Dame Pansi wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:37am:
Employment (They staff places infinitely better - they have 3 people for a role Australia was stick an overworked 1 headcount)



This is where we started to go wrong in my opinion. We went down the path of multi-skilling, where one person did the job of three or four people. The results are lack of available jobs for everyone and an overworked population, a sure recipe for stress and resentment.


multi-skilling is bad??? you couldnt be more wrong if you tried and frankly, sometimes I think you do try to be more wrong than previously. Single-skilling is the quickest career path to long-term unemplyment that there is. If your single skill is suddenly no longer useful then what do you do?? or do you prefer the 1970s with its union-enforced demarcation disputes where a plumber wasnt permitted to carry his own tools but the site had to emply someone from a different union to do that.

multi-skilling is just another one of the many reasons why we have one of the BEST economies in the world.



You're sounding a lot like Swanny. Are you turning left by any chance?


no, unlike you I ahve the ability to read and comprehend.



But not to spell, obviously.....checkmate  :)


ahve

I consistently do the same thing - its not a spelling error obviously. The left hand beat the right and the letters appeared out of order.

I try to blame the keyboard but the reality is different, I also seldom pick up this error as it really feels like you got it right and for some reason my eyes will self correct this when I read it. I even subconsciously corrected LW's error when I read it, didn't notice it was wrong till it was pointed out.

My other common error is to miss a key by 1. Something like maybe an s instead of a d.

In the end who cares, I can't criticise Mr Weekend for his spelling or punctuation (apart from the fact that it is probably better than mine).

I can more easily understand any issue with his content.


for some reason I have more trouble typing on this site than any other. ever since I had a shoulder injury my typing went to crap but even then sometimes on this site I see repeated words that i am sure I did not enter.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 8th, 2013 at 11:23am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:15am:
People get all hyped up over spelling errors and typos etc.

Everyone should all agree that people can make points how they like and we can all agree as well that I am by far the best educated on this site.

Then we can move on.



We can't agree on that Andrei because we have no proof of your education and vice versa, but you can have the title of most educated if it inflates your ego.

Although I fail to see how you didn't realise that Asia was rising until you went there this week.

Here's your trophy

                                     ANDREI

                

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 8th, 2013 at 2:46pm
Pansi I think you sell me short here.

I have said the Asian economies are charging up a long long time ago.
The numbers have been there for a decade, I didn't need to come here to see it.

My point about this week is just how much China has improved (not Asia itself, I speak here only of the specific experience of the PRC) - China now leaves Australia trailing behind on every front.

The fact the Aussies here gloat about how awesome their democracy is - the one which threatens to fine you if you don't march to the polls when they say - shows how out of touch they are.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:49pm
I pay ... Gold Medal....
man you got it just about spot on re Hicks....

we show ourselves don't we? when we converse like this...

all of us.
And we all have faults.... 

say

I hear there is a new release, updated. ....  of the huge  future series.... Chung Quo  .... Peter ?? ummm Cosgrove?? hmm.... memory fails me

A top read.... but ... I doubt most people these days, have the attention span to read it profitably.

I'd call it an Opus....  and can't wait to get a copy ..from my local library.   :)


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:43pm

Quote:
I begin to think that the term 'democracy' is a word with many meanings...


Muso has just added a few more.


Quote:
So the reason why this country is sh*tting all over the Aussies for service and quality is what then??


I have told you this before Andrei. All you have to do is let people starve to death for a generation or two, and suddenly they will be happy to work for 50c a day. It's all about economics you see.


Quote:
Like I said, people on hand to help me, polite and friendly at all times.


Tell us what you pay them, and whether you would be willing to work for so little. There is your answer.


Quote:
given that the reference was to people driving over other people in tanks, you yet again miss the point and probably do so because it is a moral question and you really just dont get morality.


Gold medal it is impolite to talk about these things. We should be more polite, like the Chinese. We should discuss the wifi, and the cheap labour, not the dead people. That's what matters.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:17pm
Uh that should be Chung Kuo

I have told you this before Andrei. All you have to do is let people starve to death for a generation or two, and suddenly they will be happy to work for 50c a day. It's all about economics you see. ....Freediver

Yes indeedy...as it (Hicks)  knows very well.
Anyway this opus is about how China rules the world, for generations of Empire., starting round and about the present day.
Scarey stuff and compelling   

Fascinating really, as it was written at least 30+ ? yrs ago?? 


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:24am

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:43pm:
Muso has just added a few more.


Go on believing that if you like. It's the old fallacy of discarding information that's not in your favour. The works of Aristotle are "irrelevant" to you. The works of Thomas Jefferson are also irrelevant, as are the courses on political science at universities throughout the world.

No no, muso made it up, and we'll just call it "appeal to authority".

I'm actually honoured that you think I could make all this up on my own, but I have to be truthful. It's actually abundantly obvious to anybody who has studied political science. I usually veer away from quoting reams of information, but now and again, it helps to get a point across:


Quote:
Whatever freedoms you have cannot exist in a political vacuum. There must be some way of assuring and protecting your rights--your freedom, and government is the answer. Even libertarians generally accept this, although they are the most ardent proponents of the maximum freedom, and believe that while government is evil, it is necessary or inevitable.

But not just any government will do. It must be one that not only commands your obedience to its laws, but one that in its very organization embodies what being free means to you. This is democracy. As a concept, "democracy" has not only developed many meanings since its first use by the ancient Greeks, but also meanings once well-established have changed.

You may define democracy by its inherent nature and by its empirical conditions. As to its nature, Aristotle defined democracy as rule by the people (Greek demokratia: demos meaning people + -kratia, -cracy, meaning rule or governing body) and this idea that in some way the people govern themselves is still the core sense of democracy. In the ancient Greek city states and the early Roman Republic democracy meant that people participated directly in governing and making policy. This was possible because of the small populations of these cities, hardly ever more than 10,000 people, and the exclusion of women and slaves from participation. Although limited to free males, this idea of the direct participation of the people in government was the central meaning of democracy up to modern times, and now is usually known as pure or direct democracy.


Source (again)

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WF.CHAP3.HTM
Once again, freedom is the foundation of democracy AND  democracy is a way of achieving freedom. They are concepts that are intricately woven together. Erode one and you erode the other. 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:39am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:13am:
Like I said, people on hand to help me, polite and friendly at all times.

Not to mention safety, I walked through the centre of the capital city as safe as anything with police around keeping order.


Where's that? Beijing or Guanzhou? Beijing I guess because you didn't say "Provincial Capital". Both have a lot more "character" than you might think. You just need to know where to go  ;D  Don't get too conned by the smooth efficient veneer.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:51am

muso wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:43pm:
Muso has just added a few more.


Go on believing that if you like. It's the old fallacy of discarding information that's not in your favour. The works of Aristotle are "irrelevant" to you. The works of Thomas Jefferson are also irrelevant, as are the courses on political science at universities throughout the world.

No no, muso made it up, and we'll just call it "appeal to authority".

I'm actually honoured that you think I could make all this up on my own, but I have to be truthful. It's actually abundantly obvious to anybody who has studied political science. I usually veer away from quoting reams of information, but now and again, it helps to get a point across:


Quote:
Whatever freedoms you have cannot exist in a political vacuum. There must be some way of assuring and protecting your rights--your freedom, and government is the answer. Even libertarians generally accept this, although they are the most ardent proponents of the maximum freedom, and believe that while government is evil, it is necessary or inevitable.

But not just any government will do. It must be one that not only commands your obedience to its laws, but one that in its very organization embodies what being free means to you. This is democracy. As a concept, "democracy" has not only developed many meanings since its first use by the ancient Greeks, but also meanings once well-established have changed.

You may define democracy by its inherent nature and by its empirical conditions. As to its nature, Aristotle defined democracy as rule by the people (Greek demokratia: demos meaning people + -kratia, -cracy, meaning rule or governing body) and this idea that in some way the people govern themselves is still the core sense of democracy. In the ancient Greek city states and the early Roman Republic democracy meant that people participated directly in governing and making policy. This was possible because of the small populations of these cities, hardly ever more than 10,000 people, and the exclusion of women and slaves from participation. Although limited to free males, this idea of the direct participation of the people in government was the central meaning of democracy up to modern times, and now is usually known as pure or direct democracy.


Source (again)

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WF.CHAP3.HTM
Once again, freedom is the foundation of democracy AND  democracy is the whole purpose of freedom. They are concepts that are intricately woven together. Erode one and you erode the other. 


As a concept, "democracy" has not only developed many meanings since its first use by the ancient Greeks, but also meanings once well-established have changed.

The first Greeks had voting only for the leading class of males and it was compulsory to attend it was ignored unless there was not a quorum in which case people were rounded up to attend and then fined for their failure.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:58am
Yeah I have no doubt there are dodgy joints.

A capital city of untold millions of people is going to have that isnt it?

I guess my point goes to the law and order.

Cities on a saturday night in the UK and Australia are horrendous - little respect for the police, drunk and disorderly violence and just nasty places to be.

In stark contrast the respect for the People's Army in Beijing is clear and order is kept. The law and order is infinitely better in China than Australia.

Make of that what you will.
I think its a huge positive - maybe because the PRC have not had the touchy-feely social worker element interfere with keeping order which has eroded social acceptance of the police?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 9th, 2013 at 10:08am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:51am:
The first Greeks had voting only for the leading class of males and it was compulsory to attend it was ignored unless there was not a quorum in which case people were rounded up to attend and then fined for their failure.


Well, it wasn't as well organised as that. During Pericles' term of office, that may have happened on occasion when numbers dwindled to a few hundred, but it wasn't a rule that was enforced automatically.

There is nothing particularly memorable about the democracies of the Greek states, except perhaps for participation rates in government as a proportion of the population. The various Greek States were just the first to form what they called demokratia. 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:53am

muso wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:24am:

freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2013 at 9:43pm:
Muso has just added a few more.


Go on believing that if you like. It's the old fallacy of discarding information that's not in your favour. The works of Aristotle are "irrelevant" to you. The works of Thomas Jefferson are also irrelevant, as are the courses on political science at universities throughout the world.

No no, muso made it up, and we'll just call it "appeal to authority".

I'm actually honoured that you think I could make all this up on my own, but I have to be truthful. It's actually abundantly obvious to anybody who has studied political science. I usually veer away from quoting reams of information, but now and again, it helps to get a point across:


Quote:
Whatever freedoms you have cannot exist in a political vacuum. There must be some way of assuring and protecting your rights--your freedom, and government is the answer. Even libertarians generally accept this, although they are the most ardent proponents of the maximum freedom, and believe that while government is evil, it is necessary or inevitable.

But not just any government will do. It must be one that not only commands your obedience to its laws, but one that in its very organization embodies what being free means to you. This is democracy. As a concept, "democracy" has not only developed many meanings since its first use by the ancient Greeks, but also meanings once well-established have changed.

You may define democracy by its inherent nature and by its empirical conditions. As to its nature, Aristotle defined democracy as rule by the people (Greek demokratia: demos meaning people + -kratia, -cracy, meaning rule or governing body) and this idea that in some way the people govern themselves is still the core sense of democracy. In the ancient Greek city states and the early Roman Republic democracy meant that people participated directly in governing and making policy. This was possible because of the small populations of these cities, hardly ever more than 10,000 people, and the exclusion of women and slaves from participation. Although limited to free males, this idea of the direct participation of the people in government was the central meaning of democracy up to modern times, and now is usually known as pure or direct democracy.


Source (again)

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WF.CHAP3.HTM
Once again, freedom is the foundation of democracy AND  democracy is a way of achieving freedom. They are concepts that are intricately woven together. Erode one and you erode the other. 


as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Morning Mist on Jan 9th, 2013 at 12:09pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 9:58am:
Yeah I have no doubt there are dodgy joints.

A capital city of untold millions of people is going to have that isnt it?

I guess my point goes to the law and order.

Cities on a saturday night in the UK and Australia are horrendous - little respect for the police, drunk and disorderly violence and just nasty places to be.

In stark contrast the respect for the People's Army in Beijing is clear and order is kept. The law and order is infinitely better in China than Australia.

Make of that what you will.
I think its a huge positive - maybe because the PRC have not had the touchy-feely social worker element interfere with keeping order which has eroded social acceptance of the police?


Non-Western countries never went through the "post-structural" revolution that castigated authority solely for sake it. The radicals of the 1960s introjected a kind of anarchism into the proceeding generations, which manifests itself today in disrespect for authority of all descriptions - police, parents, teachers, etc.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 9th, 2013 at 12:31pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:53am:
as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.


The Greeks - but how does that affect my argument?  OK, but we're getting a bit off topic here. Anyway, there are democracies around the world still that have little or no freedom, mostly those where there is either no voting  or voting is compulsory. In the 19th Century in most countries, there was a system of democracy that did not include women. With the Athenians by the way, they actually participated directly in government, whereas with modern governments, we vote for proxies - representatives.  These democracies are inferior to a liberal democracy.

Lebanon, one of the countries where voting is nominally compulsory, also excludes women. What about 16-18 year olds? They are permitted to vote in some countries.

As you can see, democracies have varying interpretations, and the factor that sorts out the good liberal democracies from the democracies that are in name only, is freedom.   

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 9th, 2013 at 12:36pm

Culture Warrior wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 12:09pm:
Non-Western countries never went through the "post-structural" revolution that castigated authority solely for sake it. The radicals of the 1960s introjected a kind of anarchism into the proceeding generations, which manifests itself today in disrespect for authority of all descriptions - police, parents, teachers, etc.


Maybe so, but China is changing rapidly, probably for the better. The internet is the biggest threat to the status quo. Do you think people discuss politics in public nowadays? Of course they do - in the right circles. In my experience, everybody has an opinion, and are not afraid to voice it. China will eventually sort itself out.

Remember the powdered milk scandal where a dodgy factory owner was watering it down with a plastic? That received an incredible public reaction, and the public reaction does have a considerable influence.

喜来我们所有的中国读者  (Hi to all our Chinese readers LOL)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 9th, 2013 at 12:39pm
Muso, Chinese television is quite open and I have seen numerous reports on the news of demonstrations outside of the headquarters of the administration of Hong Kong.

I saw it in person, but I have seen it reported on Chinese television.

LW and Freedman do not speak from first hand knowledge of the PRC, more what they have been told.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:58pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:53am:
as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.



Try discussing freedoms and human rights in the context of anyone of the many modern European countries, I think you'll find they run rings around Australia at every level of democracy.


Judging by the latest amendment to Australia's anti-discrimination laws where a person can be gaoled for hurting someone's feels even if the conversation was merely overheard and not directed at the aggrieved party. Gotta be happy that, hey longy.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 9th, 2013 at 3:37pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:53am:
as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.



Try discussing freedoms and human rights in the context of anyone of the many modern European countries, I think you'll find they run rings around Australia at every level of democracy.


Judging by the latest amendment to Australia's anti-discrimination laws where a person can be gaoled for hurting someone's feels even if the conversation was merely overheard and not directed at the aggrieved party. Gotta be happy that, hey longy.


firstly, it ISNT law nor is it even debated legislation. It is nothing more than a proposed idea that has been rejected by almost everyone and you are using a worst-case scenario. And your bleating about how good Europe is in human rights is a little silly since they are the home of the anti-discrimination legislation you hate so much.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 9th, 2013 at 3:59pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:53am:
as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.



Try discussing freedoms and human rights in the context of anyone of the many modern European countries, I think you'll find they run rings around Australia at every level of democracy.


Judging by the latest amendment to Australia's anti-discrimination laws where a person can be gaoled for hurting someone's feels even if the conversation was merely overheard and not directed at the aggrieved party. Gotta be happy that, hey longy.


firstly, it ISNT law nor is it even debated legislation. It is nothing more than a proposed idea that has been rejected by almost everyone and you are using a worst-case scenario. And your bleating about how good Europe is in human rights is a little silly since they are the home of the anti-discrimination legislation you hate so much.



sorry proposed legislation.

The fact they (the government) would even think about such draconian legislation is pause for concern, but we have meekly accepted bad legislation for 'our own good' in the past, why should this be any different.


Don't recall bleating about how good Europe is, probably mentioned it mostly as a counter the never ending use of the US as the absolute outcome for any argument, human rights, voting, gun control, you name it the US will be the only comparison given. It's like there are only two countries in the world, Aus & the US. Try using the European experience next time you want to argue against human rights and basic freedoms. Sh1t I'll even accept NZ, the UK or Canada as a comparison. But the constant use of the US shows just how weak the anti-human rights argument is.


BTW before you get your panties all bunched up, when I say human rights I mean codified human rights, just like I have for the past 5 years.


Also I never at any time stated any hatred for the anti discrimination legislation, European or Australian, so nice accusation, but total bullsh1t.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:00pm

double post

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:39pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 3:59pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 3:37pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 2:58pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:53am:
as an aside I find it difficult to discuss the notions of freedom using the Romans as examples. When women and children were considered property and could be disposed of at will and wehere slaves were even worse off, I dont think 'freedom' was at the core of their society.



Try discussing freedoms and human rights in the context of anyone of the many modern European countries, I think you'll find they run rings around Australia at every level of democracy.


Judging by the latest amendment to Australia's anti-discrimination laws where a person can be gaoled for hurting someone's feels even if the conversation was merely overheard and not directed at the aggrieved party. Gotta be happy that, hey longy.


firstly, it ISNT law nor is it even debated legislation. It is nothing more than a proposed idea that has been rejected by almost everyone and you are using a worst-case scenario. And your bleating about how good Europe is in human rights is a little silly since they are the home of the anti-discrimination legislation you hate so much.



sorry proposed legislation.

The fact they (the government) would even think about such draconian legislation is pause for concern, but we have meekly accepted bad legislation for 'our own good' in the past, why should this be any different.


Don't recall bleating about how good Europe is, probably mentioned it mostly as a counter the never ending use of the US as the absolute outcome for any argument, human rights, voting, gun control, you name it the US will be the only comparison given. It's like there are only two countries in the world, Aus & the US. Try using the European experience next time you want to argue against human rights and basic freedoms. Sh1t I'll even accept NZ, the UK or Canada as a comparison. But the constant use of the US shows just how weak the anti-human rights argument is.


BTW before you get your panties all bunched up, when I say human rights I mean codified human rights, just like I have for the past 5 years.


Also I never at any time stated any hatred for the anti discrimination legislation, European or Australian, so nice accusation, but total bullsh1t.


'codified' is one hell of a difference!! yes they have more 'codified' human rights than us. However, we have more actual, in pract human rights.

but what is truly pathetic is this commentary comes right out of your usual predictable rant about voting. as trivial an issue as can be found, you make it a definition of human rights. Give me OUR rights than Europes any day.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:42pm
Hardly.
Forcing people to vote is something of which to be proud????


Lol

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:46pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:42pm:
Hardly.
Forcing people to vote is something of which to be proud????


Lol


this from someone who thinks the death penalty is okay even if innocents die? But compulsory voting is onerous??

in what planet is voting some kind of obligation that is too hard, too onerous or offensive? IN the list of things we are forced to do does it even rank in the top 100?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:58pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:39pm:
'codified' is one hell of a difference!! yes they have more 'codified' human rights than us. However, we have more actual, in pract human rights.

but what is truly pathetic is this commentary comes right out of your usual predictable rant about voting. as trivial an issue as can be found, you make it a definition of human rights. Give me OUR rights than Europes any day.



for a start we don't have ANY codified human rights let alone a 'few less'.


Our 'rights' would be what exactly?

You know the ones that are much better than everyone else's. I don't recall you having a fvcken clue what they were last time we 'dicussed this, let alone where they were or anything else about our world's best human rights.  ;D

If you don't have a clue what something is, it's pretty stupid to claim it is the 'best in the world'.

But feel free to show me and everyone else what our world's best human right are, I'd be more than happy to see them.





Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:25pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:58pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:39pm:
'codified' is one hell of a difference!! yes they have more 'codified' human rights than us. However, we have more actual, in pract human rights.

but what is truly pathetic is this commentary comes right out of your usual predictable rant about voting. as trivial an issue as can be found, you make it a definition of human rights. Give me OUR rights than Europes any day.



for a start we don't have ANY codified human rights let alone a 'few less'.


Our 'rights' would be what exactly?

You know the ones that are much better than everyone else's. I don't recall you having a fvcken clue what they were last time we 'dicussed this, let alone where they were or anything else about our world's best human rights.  ;D

If you don't have a clue what something is, it's pretty stupid to claim it is the 'best in the world'.

But feel free to show me and everyone else what our world's best human right are, I'd be more than happy to see them.


Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.  We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:41pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:25pm:
Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.  We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.



Horse sh1t!


We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.


Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.


And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.


Like I said, Horse sh1t!


You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:46pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:46pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 4:42pm:
Hardly.
Forcing people to vote is something of which to be proud????


Lol


this from someone who thinks the death penalty is okay even if innocents die? But compulsory voting is onerous??

in what planet is voting some kind of obligation that is too hard, too onerous or offensive? IN the list of things we are forced to do does it even rank in the top 100?


The rest of the developed world also thinks forcing people to vote is absurd.

If you want a free country then you should be free to stay home.

The last 3 elections in the UK I stayed home and never bothered.
You see in a free country that is my right. It is not for you or anyone else to make me.

What a ridiculous thing, forcing people to vote!!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:47pm
A dictatorship forces people to vote.
Not a supposedly free country!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:57am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:25pm:
Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.  We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.



Horse sh1t!


We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.


Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.


And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.


Like I said, Horse sh1t!


You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.


free speech does not include the right to defamation whcih I thought would be obvious. Bolt was found guilty of defamation. You can disagree with that determinatin (and I do) but it was not an abrogation of the principle of free speech.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:58am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:25pm:
Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.  We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.



Horse sh1t!


We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.


Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.


And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.


Like I said, Horse sh1t!


You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.


do you mean the bikies legislation that the High Court has repeatedly reject precisely for this reason??? Tlak about the worst possible example of proving your case!!!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:01am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:25pm:
Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.  We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.



Horse sh1t!


We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.


Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.


And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.


Like I said, Horse sh1t!


You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.


presumption of innocence in criminal matters exists ALL THE TIME and I reject your assertion otherwise. Police search warrants might be a contentious issue but they are not a prima facie breach of human rights or civil liberties. Just because YOU dont agree with a law doesnt make it a breach of human rights. the definition of that is a higher standard!

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:04am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:41pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:25pm:
Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.  We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'. Likewise, our human rights record is among the best. And if you dont concur you could do well to explain where our human rights are deficient. And of course you will say the absence of a Bill of Rights which is in so many ways worthless or worse. Countries with such documents routinely abrogate them. the only real protection our society has from breaches of human rights is a society that repudiates even small attempts to breach them PLUS a judiciary that is genuinely indepedent and a parliamentary democrcay that has a recod of defending them

THAT is how human rights are preserved - not with a peice of paper that recognises the right to free spech, free religion, freedom of association and o due process. USSR and China had such documents. Many other near dictatorships also have them. Of what value is Fiji's constitution? NIL. Singapore's human rights are particularly poor.

Our human righs record is remarkable - and all without a peice of paper because our parliamentary democryc - the thing you refuse to participate in - makes it happen.



Horse sh1t!


We live in a country that doles out obligations and privileges according to the whim of those in power, and the sheeple are damn grateful for those privileges too.


Free speech, unless of course it hurts someone's feelings, then forget about it, just ask mr bolt

Freedom of association; maybe the bikies would love to see that one in practice; remember what I said about privileges.

Due process, things like the right to be presumed innocent, well not the staff charged with the Gretley Mine accident all have to prove their innocence in the courts, what about the right see a search warrant or at least reasonable suspicion before the police enter your house to do a search, well not if you are a gun owner in QLD, the cops can just march in without reason or cause.


And lastly freedom of religion, maybe so, Ive never seen it written down anywhere, but surely you must know where it's legal status is.


Like I said, Horse sh1t!


You may enjoy the few fleeting privileges you get and accept being told what to tdo by your government, but not everyone likes being treated like a child.


do you know of a singel example of religious freedom having been denied in Australia? Like I said earlier the USSR and China have constitutions guaranteeing the right to practice religion of choice. I wil aplaud the country (ours!) that practices freedom rathe than those that write it on a peice of paper and then ignore it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:21am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:47pm:
A dictatorship forces people to vote.

Not a supposedly free country!



The vast majority of dictatorships have stopped people voting or ensured that there was only one option.

You seem to have the horse at the wrong end of the cart again.

Ensuring that the maximum number of people have a free vote is the opposite to dictatorial.

The question here is not about this issue.

Is it a better system when people have a responsibility to vote in a system where you guarantee a high turn out resulting in a highly representative result and legitimate government.

Or is the price too high and:

It is better to get an less representative result but give people the option to not participate.

I think the current system (warts and all) has served us well for a century, as good or better than any other not perfect by any means.

Change always entails risk and in this case the seemingly simple variation would be very likely to result in a large variation overall with the concentration of power going to minority lobby groups and existence of party's and viability of independents etc.

All rather extreme and undesirable outcomes.

In my view even those supporting a change are looking at something like a 20% penalty for a 5% gain.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by corporate_whitey on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:24am
I object to this move because It robs me of my right to refuse to vote as a form of protest... :(

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:05am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:21am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9th, 2013 at 5:47pm:
A dictatorship forces people to vote.

Not a supposedly free country!



The vast majority of dictatorships have stopped people voting or ensured that there was only one option.

You seem to have the horse at the wrong end of the cart again.

Ensuring that the maximum number of people have a free vote is the opposite to dictatorial.

The question here is not about this issue.

Is it a better system when people have a responsibility to vote in a system where you guarantee a high turn out resulting in a highly representative result and legitimate government.

Or is the price too high and:

It is better to get an less representative result but give people the option to not participate.

I think the current system (warts and all) has served us well for a century, as good or better than any other not perfect by any means.

Change always entails risk and in this case the seemingly simple variation would be very likely to result in a large variation overall with the concentration of power going to minority lobby groups and existence of party's and viability of independents etc.

All rather extreme and undesirable outcomes.

In my view even those supporting a change are looking at something like a 20% penalty for a 5% gain.


Im with you on this, DNA. I really, really dont see the point or the angst. the obligation to vote is a trivial one and since it is the cornerstone of our democracy, making it voluntary would be a retrograde step. The people who compare us to other countries do so very selectively. Australia is regarded as one of the worlds truly great and robust democracies. so given that, why would you tinker with something that works so well? The risks are high and the rewards are.. well non-existent. If you dont want to vote then either take the fine or go and get your name crossed off.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:08am
NO NO NO NO NO and NO.

In a free society, if I believe that none of the candidates are any good, I have the option of not getting out of my chair and voting.

In a free society, if I cannot be bothered to vote (which has been the case for me the last few elections in England) then I cannot be bothered and I don't.

If you want to vote, then go right ahead.
To tell and force others to do so, is not free and democratic.

Democratic is - if I don't want to vote, then I don't.

It is not harming anyone (which is why you have laws) and it not hindering or causing any disturbance.
There is no reason to force people to vote.

It basically is the reason why none of the rest of the world have this retarded system.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:27am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:08am:
NO NO NO NO NO and NO.

In a free society, if I believe that none of the candidates are any good, I have the option of not getting out of my chair and voting.

In a free society, if I cannot be bothered to vote (which has been the case for me the last few elections in England) then I cannot be bothered and I don't.

If you want to vote, then go right ahead.
To tell and force others to do so, is not free and democratic.

Democratic is - if I don't want to vote, then I don't.

It is not harming anyone (which is why you have laws) and it not hindering or causing any disturbance.
There is no reason to force people to vote.

It basically is the reason why none of the rest of the world have this retarded system.


you confuse democracy with laziness. as do quite a few others on here.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:31am
Why should I vote if I don't want to?

You cannot force someone to do something which should be their right to do so.

It harms nobody, it hinders nothing.
It is why NOBODY has this system, you do realize that.

It is backward and retarded and I am glad I am no longer a part of it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by corporate_whitey on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:32am
The greatest lie of the right against the poor is the accusation that they are lazy...so goal of the right is to stop the poor from working, rob them of welfare and security and if possible to kill them so that they can take their share, it always has been... :)

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by corporate_whitey on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:34am
All of the mass killings throughout history have been about marginalizing and killing the poor and pacifists and longweekend and the right have all of that blood dripping from their hands... :P

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:36am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:31am:
Why should I vote if I don't want to?

You cannot force someone to do something which should be their right to do so.

It harms nobody, it hinders nothing.
It is why NOBODY has this system, you do realize that.

It is backward and retarded and I am glad I am no longer a part of it.


voting is the SINGLE obligation that living in a democracy imposes. Freedom is not the absence of obligation in fact wasnt it Jefferson who observed thet freedom reqwuired the regular blood of patriots?  all you are asked to do is to vote - not go to war.

it is just laziness, nothing more.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:37am

corporate_whitey wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:34am:
All of the mass killings throughout history have been about marginalizing and killing the poor and pacifists and longweekend and the right have all of that blood dripping from their hands... :P


pity it wasnt getting rid of the insane trolls...

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:37am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:08am:
NO NO NO NO NO and NO.

In a free society, if I believe that none of the candidates are any good, I have the option of not getting out of my chair and voting.

In a free society, if I cannot be bothered to vote (which has been the case for me the last few elections in England) then I cannot be bothered and I don't.

If you want to vote, then go right ahead.
To tell and force others to do so, is not free and democratic.

Democratic is - if I don't want to vote, then I don't.

It is not harming anyone (which is why you have laws) and it not hindering or causing any disturbance.
There is no reason to force people to vote.

It basically is the reason why none of the rest of the world have this retarded system.


Democratic is - if I don't want to vote, then I don't.

I don't fully disagree with you or I understand your point however I am one of the people who is happy to look at it as a responsibility, Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.

While I understand your point I see many more advantages to the current system in exchange for not much of an effort and an almost certain lower standard resulting from changing to optinal.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by KJT1981 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:49am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:37am:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:08am:
NO NO NO NO NO and NO.

In a free society, if I believe that none of the candidates are any good, I have the option of not getting out of my chair and voting.

In a free society, if I cannot be bothered to vote (which has been the case for me the last few elections in England) then I cannot be bothered and I don't.

If you want to vote, then go right ahead.
To tell and force others to do so, is not free and democratic.

Democratic is - if I don't want to vote, then I don't.

It is not harming anyone (which is why you have laws) and it not hindering or causing any disturbance.
There is no reason to force people to vote.

It basically is the reason why none of the rest of the world have this retarded system.


Democratic is - if I don't want to vote, then I don't.

I don't fully disagree with you or I understand your point however I am one of the people who is happy to look at it as a responsibility, Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.

While I understand your point I see many more advantages to the current system in exchange for not much of an effort and an almost certain lower standard resulting from changing to optinal.



I am not in any way DENYING your right to vote, which for me would be the worst thing possible.

I am simply saying you have the right to vote, I have the right to vote.

I also should have the right to not bother voting as well.

Vote if you want, don't vote if you don't want.

It should not be the place of the Government to tell me to vote.
If I don't want to, then call it lazy if you like, but thats my right.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by KJT1981 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:52am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.



Oh, please.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:52am
Nobody is denying your right to vote LW.

What we are arguing is that it is wrong to tell people they have to.

If I don't like any of the parties or I don't care enough about the result of the election, then my right should be to sit at home and watch TV.

Call it lazy if you like but you go ahead and vote and I'll stay home.
No harm done.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Annie Anthrax on Jan 10th, 2013 at 9:10am
I have only read the first 5 or 6 pages of the thread, so I don't know if this has been said before.

Changing the voting regulations would be a mistake. Look at the circus that is the US election year. Do we really want that here?

For people who have a real objection to voting, jus't don't do it. You're hardly going to be sent off to a gulag for 30 years hard labour; it's a negligible fine at most.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:07am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:58am:
do you mean the bikies legislation that the High Court has repeatedly reject precisely for this reason??? Tlak about the worst possible example of proving your case!!!



Actually it has not been struck down by the high court, well not here anyway, so not so wrong after all. BTW Australia has had 'consorting laws' for many decades where it is a crime to be or to know someone; why do you think that has be allowed to happen? You assertion that freedom association exists in this country is once again total horse sh1t. You don't need to commit a crime to be gaoled as a criminal.




A police application yesterday to declare the Gold Coast branch of the Finks Motorcycle Club illegal is the first attempt to use Queensland's controversial anti-association laws.

The legislation was so contentious when introduced by the Bligh government in 2009 that senior Liberal National Party figure Lawrence Springborg claimed Labor MPs “should be condemned to the eternal nightmare which follows their trampling of centuries of established legal rights of every Queensland citizen into the dirt”.

But the LNP struck a different tone yesterday, with Police Minister Jack Dempsey issuing a media release trumpeting that the government was “cracking down on bikie gangs” and would “do everything we can to crack down on these gangs and protect the community”.

Under the Criminal Organisation Act, which took force in 2010, the Police Commissioner can make an application to the Supreme Court to declare an organisation to be “criminal”.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/government-wrestles-with-bikie-association-laws-20120601-1zmrt.html



BARRISTER Wayne Baffsky had long suspected that consorting laws aimed at outlaw bikies in NSW would be unleashed on anybody the police did not like. The Hells Angels barrister never dreamed it would happen so soon.

The first person jailed for consorting - defined as contact with at least two people convicted of indictable crimes - was Charlie Foster, 21. He was neither a gangster nor a bikie. In fact, most people in his hometown of Inverell in northern NSW regard him as nothing more than a nuisance. Born with an intellectual disability, Foster, who reportedly cannot read or write, has never been accused or convicted of any kind of conspiracy, let alone any organised crime offences.

He was sentenced to nine months' jail in July after receiving two consorting bookings with three other men in a two-month period. Far from meeting to plan crime, Foster and his mates were going shopping when booked on one occasion.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/guilt-by-association/story-e6frg6z6-1226453627754




BIKIES, violent street gangs and underworld syndicates will be the target of tough new laws to be signed off by the Coalition Cabinet within weeks.

Attorney-General Robert Clark has pledged the Baillieu Government will smash the state's gang culture under water-tight "anti-association" laws.

In its final stages of drafting before Cabinet talks, Mr Clark revealed how the law will allow police to have bikie groups declared a criminal organisation by the Supreme Court.

Anti-bikie Echo taskforce head, Det Inspector David De Francesco last night said: "Further legislation that enhances our laws is a positive."

Police documents detail a potential hit-list of 23 bikie gangs spread across 55 clubhouses throughout Victoria, from Port Melbourne to Geelong and Echuca.

And bikies would not be the only targets under the new law.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/new-powers-to-jail-bikies-and-street-thugs/story-fnat7jnn-1226455268976



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:14am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:04am:
do you know of a singel example of religious freedom having been denied in Australia? Like I said earlier the USSR and China have constitutions guaranteeing the right to practice religion of choice. I wil aplaud the country (ours!) that practices freedom rathe than those that write it on a peice of paper and then ignore it.



But where is it written down?

Like I said I'm more than happy to totally agree with us being the world's best at human rights if you can shown me where any of our rights actually exist; otherwise they are nothing more than obligations and privileges to be doled out  by a benevolent master.






Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:20am

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.



I can assure you, no serviceman or woman has willingly sacrificed their life so the government can  force the sheeple of Australia to vote.


Just another load of wank there buddy



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:42am
Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD

At this point it is only one topic on a discussion paper.

There are a lot of areas where I am very critical of the performance of this guy but on this I feel that even though I disagree with the change it is a topic worth discussing.

I will reserve my judgment as to whether this is a bit of political opportunism or not, as I simply do not know the answer at this point.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:53am

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???



My grandparents took their responsibility seriously and so did theirs. This is the way we have organised our democracy in Australia for about a century.

I my view it is a good thing to to have all of us looking at the issues involved in running the country or State once every few years and having to take responsibility for the results.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:19pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:01am:
presumption of innocence in criminal matters exists ALL THE TIME and I reject your assertion otherwise. Police search warrants might be a contentious issue but they are not a prima facie breach of human rights or civil liberties. Just because YOU dont agree with a law doesnt make it a breach of human rights. the definition of that is a higher standard!




yeah not quite right again there longy, you seem to be on a bit of a roll here.a


In addition, NSW is alone in applying a presumption of guilt to employers. The mere fact that an incident has occurred means that an employer (or the employer’s manager) is automatically held to be guilty.The presumed guilty person is in the position of having to disprove their guilt. And the Gretley case shows that even if others were also at fault, those others can and do avoid prosecution
and conviction.

http://www.ipa.org.au/library/PHILLIPS%20GRETLEY.pdf




BTW, please don't bother supporting any of your claims / opinions with any sort of evidence to support those opinions. It supports my assertion that you are friggen clueless when it comes to any rights the we may or probably don't have and the law for that matter.




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:55pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:07am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:58am:
do you mean the bikies legislation that the High Court has repeatedly reject precisely for this reason??? Tlak about the worst possible example of proving your case!!!



Actually it has not been struck down by the high court, well not here anyway, so not so wrong after all. BTW Australia has had 'consorting laws' for many decades where it is a crime to be or to know someone; why do you think that has be allowed to happen? You assertion that freedom association exists in this country is once again total horse sh1t. You don't need to commit a crime to be gaoled as a criminal.




A police application yesterday to declare the Gold Coast branch of the Finks Motorcycle Club illegal is the first attempt to use Queensland's controversial anti-association laws.

The legislation was so contentious when introduced by the Bligh government in 2009 that senior Liberal National Party figure Lawrence Springborg claimed Labor MPs “should be condemned to the eternal nightmare which follows their trampling of centuries of established legal rights of every Queensland citizen into the dirt”.

But the LNP struck a different tone yesterday, with Police Minister Jack Dempsey issuing a media release trumpeting that the government was “cracking down on bikie gangs” and would “do everything we can to crack down on these gangs and protect the community”.

Under the Criminal Organisation Act, which took force in 2010, the Police Commissioner can make an application to the Supreme Court to declare an organisation to be “criminal”.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/government-wrestles-with-bikie-association-laws-20120601-1zmrt.html



BARRISTER Wayne Baffsky had long suspected that consorting laws aimed at outlaw bikies in NSW would be unleashed on anybody the police did not like. The Hells Angels barrister never dreamed it would happen so soon.

The first person jailed for consorting - defined as contact with at least two people convicted of indictable crimes - was Charlie Foster, 21. He was neither a gangster nor a bikie. In fact, most people in his hometown of Inverell in northern NSW regard him as nothing more than a nuisance. Born with an intellectual disability, Foster, who reportedly cannot read or write, has never been accused or convicted of any kind of conspiracy, let alone any organised crime offences.

He was sentenced to nine months' jail in July after receiving two consorting bookings with three other men in a two-month period. Far from meeting to plan crime, Foster and his mates were going shopping when booked on one occasion.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/guilt-by-association/story-e6frg6z6-1226453627754




BIKIES, violent street gangs and underworld syndicates will be the target of tough new laws to be signed off by the Coalition Cabinet within weeks.

Attorney-General Robert Clark has pledged the Baillieu Government will smash the state's gang culture under water-tight "anti-association" laws.

In its final stages of drafting before Cabinet talks, Mr Clark revealed how the law will allow police to have bikie groups declared a criminal organisation by the Supreme Court.

Anti-bikie Echo taskforce head, Det Inspector David De Francesco last night said: "Further legislation that enhances our laws is a positive."

Police documents detail a potential hit-list of 23 bikie gangs spread across 55 clubhouses throughout Victoria, from Port Melbourne to Geelong and Echuca.

And bikies would not be the only targets under the new law.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/new-powers-to-jail-bikies-and-street-thugs/story-fnat7jnn-1226455268976


Well it is QLD after all where the rule of law has always been different. However, the High Court did rule it invlaid in other states. probably no one bright enough up there to appeal it to the High Court.

Your story sounds very quaint but I am equally sure that the story contains a lot of elements not reported.

I agree that such laws are wrong. And the High Court has agreed with me. However, no mere peice of paper is going to stop it. It wasnt stopped in SA by a peice of paper. it was stopped by peopl taking action.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:56pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:14am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:04am:
do you know of a singel example of religious freedom having been denied in Australia? Like I said earlier the USSR and China have constitutions guaranteeing the right to practice religion of choice. I wil aplaud the country (ours!) that practices freedom rathe than those that write it on a peice of paper and then ignore it.



But where is it written down?

Like I said I'm more than happy to totally agree with us being the world's best at human rights if you can shown me where any of our rights actually exist; otherwise they are nothing more than obligations and privileges to be doled out  by a benevolent master.


the whole point of the argument that you refuse to accept is that rights codified on a scrap of paper are worthless without a strong judiciary and community that upholds them and needless in one that does.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:58pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.



I can assure you, no serviceman or woman has willingly sacrificed their life so the government can  force the sheeple of Australia to vote.


Just another load of wank there buddy


are you that dumb?  I'm beginning to think you are.  the ultimate sacrifice was so that Australia could remain free and democratic.

i fail to see your object to voting. Bloody-mindedness and laziness are the only reason I can see and neither are of any value.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:27pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:01am:
presumption of innocence in criminal matters exists ALL THE TIME and I reject your assertion otherwise. Police search warrants might be a contentious issue but they are not a prima facie breach of human rights or civil liberties. Just because YOU dont agree with a law doesnt make it a breach of human rights. the definition of that is a higher standard!




yeah not quite right again there longy, you seem to be on a bit of a roll here.a


In addition, NSW is alone in applying a presumption of guilt to employers. The mere fact that an incident has occurred means that an employer (or the employer’s manager) is automatically held to be guilty.The presumed guilty person is in the position of having to disprove their guilt. And the Gretley case shows that even if others were also at fault, those others can and do avoid prosecution
and conviction.

http://www.ipa.org.au/library/PHILLIPS%20GRETLEY.pdf




BTW, please don't bother supporting any of your claims / opinions with any sort of evidence to support those opinions. It supports my assertion that you are friggen clueless when it comes to any rights the we may or probably don't have and the law for that matter.



did you read (and of course you idnt) the word CRIMINAL when referring to presumption of innocence? 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:31pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:56pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:14am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:04am:
do you know of a singel example of religious freedom having been denied in Australia? Like I said earlier the USSR and China have constitutions guaranteeing the right to practice religion of choice. I wil aplaud the country (ours!) that practices freedom rathe than those that write it on a peice of paper and then ignore it.



But where is it written down?

Like I said I'm more than happy to totally agree with us being the world's best at human rights if you can shown me where any of our rights actually exist; otherwise they are nothing more than obligations and privileges to be doled out  by a benevolent master.


the whole point of the argument that you refuse to accept is that rights codified on a scrap of paper are worthless without a strong judiciary and community that upholds them and needless in one that does.



Wrong yet again longy, it must be an innate character trait

Never said or implied anything of the sort.

I will say the regardless of the judiciary or the community feeling on the matter, if the rights aren't known (codified) they aren't upheld (in existence).

You have never once been able to show any reference to any right or freedom we supposedly have in this country and you continually crap on how fvcken great they are.

They don't exist if they are not written down somewhere for all to see, you know like in real democracies.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:34pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:55pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:07am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:58am:
do you mean the bikies legislation that the High Court has repeatedly reject precisely for this reason??? Tlak about the worst possible example of proving your case!!!



Actually it has not been struck down by the high court, well not here anyway, so not so wrong after all. BTW Australia has had 'consorting laws' for many decades where it is a crime to be or to know someone; why do you think that has be allowed to happen? You assertion that freedom association exists in this country is once again total horse sh1t. You don't need to commit a crime to be gaoled as a criminal.




A police application yesterday to declare the Gold Coast branch of the Finks Motorcycle Club illegal is the first attempt to use Queensland's controversial anti-association laws.

The legislation was so contentious when introduced by the Bligh government in 2009 that senior Liberal National Party figure Lawrence Springborg claimed Labor MPs “should be condemned to the eternal nightmare which follows their trampling of centuries of established legal rights of every Queensland citizen into the dirt�.

But the LNP struck a different tone yesterday, with Police Minister Jack Dempsey issuing a media release trumpeting that the government was “cracking down on bikie gangs� and would “do everything we can to crack down on these gangs and protect the community�.

Under the Criminal Organisation Act, which took force in 2010, the Police Commissioner can make an application to the Supreme Court to declare an organisation to be “criminal�.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/government-wrestles-with-bikie-association-laws-20120601-1zmrt.html



BARRISTER Wayne Baffsky had long suspected that consorting laws aimed at outlaw bikies in NSW would be unleashed on anybody the police did not like. The Hells Angels barrister never dreamed it would happen so soon.

The first person jailed for consorting - defined as contact with at least two people convicted of indictable crimes - was Charlie Foster, 21. He was neither a gangster nor a bikie. In fact, most people in his hometown of Inverell in northern NSW regard him as nothing more than a nuisance. Born with an intellectual disability, Foster, who reportedly cannot read or write, has never been accused or convicted of any kind of conspiracy, let alone any organised crime offences.

He was sentenced to nine months' jail in July after receiving two consorting bookings with three other men in a two-month period. Far from meeting to plan crime, Foster and his mates were going shopping when booked on one occasion.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/guilt-by-association/story-e6frg6z6-1226453627754




BIKIES, violent street gangs and underworld syndicates will be the target of tough new laws to be signed off by the Coalition Cabinet within weeks.

Attorney-General Robert Clark has pledged the Baillieu Government will smash the state's gang culture under water-tight "anti-association" laws.

In its final stages of drafting before Cabinet talks, Mr Clark revealed how the law will allow police to have bikie groups declared a criminal organisation by the Supreme Court.

Anti-bikie Echo taskforce head, Det Inspector David De Francesco last night said: "Further legislation that enhances our laws is a positive."

Police documents detail a potential hit-list of 23 bikie gangs spread across 55 clubhouses throughout Victoria, from Port Melbourne to Geelong and Echuca.

And bikies would not be the only targets under the new law.


http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/law-order/new-powers-to-jail-bikies-and-street-thugs/story-fnat7jnn-1226455268976


Well it is QLD after all where the rule of law has always been different. However, the High Court did rule it invlaid in other states. probably no one bright enough up there to appeal it to the High Court.

Your story sounds very quaint but I am equally sure that the story contains a lot of elements not reported.

I agree that such laws are wrong. And the High Court has agreed with me. However, no mere peice of paper is going to stop it. It wasnt stopped in SA by a peice of paper. it was stopped by peopl taking action.




Are you fvcken totally retarded I gave you THREE smacking examples from 3 DIFFERENT states, QLD, NSW and Victoria.

FFS!


The high court hasn't done sh1t so far stop smacking lying that is has.




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:38pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.



I can assure you, no serviceman or woman has willingly sacrificed their life so the government can  force the sheeple of Australia to vote.


Just another load of wank there buddy


are you that dumb?  I'm beginning to think you are.  the ultimate sacrifice was so that Australia could remain free and democratic.

i fail to see your object to voting. Bloody-mindedness and laziness are the only reason I can see and neither are of any value.



it's always nice to get a lecture on military histry form someone how has NEVER served a day in their life.


You have only the laziness insult left now, since I once again showed you haven't a fvcken clue about Australia's lack of human rights and freedoms. Voting being only one small part of our overall draconian system of government.


Thus endeth the lesson (again)



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by BigOl64 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:45pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:27pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:19pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:01am:
presumption of innocence in criminal matters exists ALL THE TIME and I reject your assertion otherwise. Police search warrants might be a contentious issue but they are not a prima facie breach of human rights or civil liberties. Just because YOU dont agree with a law doesnt make it a breach of human rights. the definition of that is a higher standard!




yeah not quite right again there longy, you seem to be on a bit of a roll here.a


In addition, NSW is alone in applying a presumption of guilt to employers. The mere fact that an incident has occurred means that an employer (or the employer’s manager) is automatically held to be guilty.The presumed guilty person is in the position of having to disprove their guilt. And the Gretley case shows that even if others were also at fault, those others can and do avoid prosecution
and conviction.

http://www.ipa.org.au/library/PHILLIPS%20GRETLEY.pdf




BTW, please don't bother supporting any of your claims / opinions with any sort of evidence to support those opinions. It supports my assertion that you are friggen clueless when it comes to any rights the we may or probably don't have and the law for that matter.



did you read (and of course you idnt) the word CRIMINAL when referring to presumption of innocence? 



Yeah I did ignore it dickhead, because I made no reference to it in my post, therefore your reply and subsequent reference was irrelevant. Gretly was NOT a criminal case therefore your reference to criminal law was nothing more than a red herring. Maybe knowing something about law other than being an opinionated bush lawyer would help.



bugger off and try again when you know what you are talking about




Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 3:04pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:31pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:56pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:14am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:04am:
do you know of a singel example of religious freedom having been denied in Australia? Like I said earlier the USSR and China have constitutions guaranteeing the right to practice religion of choice. I wil aplaud the country (ours!) that practices freedom rathe than those that write it on a peice of paper and then ignore it.



But where is it written down?

Like I said I'm more than happy to totally agree with us being the world's best at human rights if you can shown me where any of our rights actually exist; otherwise they are nothing more than obligations and privileges to be doled out  by a benevolent master.


the whole point of the argument that you refuse to accept is that rights codified on a scrap of paper are worthless without a strong judiciary and community that upholds them and needless in one that does.



Wrong yet again longy, it must be an innate character trait

Never said or implied anything of the sort.

I will say the regardless of the judiciary or the community feeling on the matter, if the rights aren't known (codified) they aren't upheld (in existence).
You have never once been able to show any reference to any right or freedom we supposedly have in this country and you continually crap on how fvcken great they are.

They don't exist if they are not written down somewhere for all to see, you know like in real democracies.


so we have no rights because they arent in existence and arent upheld?

not the best argument you've ever made.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 4:05pm

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:38pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 12:58pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:20am:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.



I can assure you, no serviceman or woman has willingly sacrificed their life so the government can  force the sheeple of Australia to vote.


Just another load of wank there buddy


are you that dumb?  I'm beginning to think you are.  the ultimate sacrifice was so that Australia could remain free and democratic.

i fail to see your object to voting. Bloody-mindedness and laziness are the only reason I can see and neither are of any value.



it's always nice to get a lecture on military histry form someone how has NEVER served a day in their life.


You have only the laziness insult left now, since I once again showed you haven't a fvcken clue about Australia's lack of human rights and freedoms. Voting being only one small part of our overall draconian system of government.


Thus endeth the lesson (again)


you dont give lessons... you simply rant and rave and pretend that the QLD sun hasnt fried your brain and your personality. it has. Your rudeness and vile responses simply prove that you have no case to put forward.

PS you know nothing of my military record so assume nothing, wannabe.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:39pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.


Don't be melodramatic.  They fought for no such thing, and they fought hand in hand with UK and US soliders who don't have compulsary voting.

It's about change. If you tried to change voting from optional to compulsory in the UK, you'd have mass protests and accusations of fascism on a grand scale. If you try to change the system in Australia from compulsory to voluntary, you might very well see the same thing, and Julia Gillard is jumping on the same "headless chook" bandwagon.   

People don't like change.  That's all it is. To some extent, I understand the "if it's not broke, don't try to fix it" point of view, but I'm all for encouraging people to think outside the box. 


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:56pm

muso wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 6:39pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:50am:

KJT1981 wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:41am:
Part of being Australian is that you have a responsibility to vote.


Why?

Because the Government says you have to???


because the blood of those of past generations says so. we honour them and their sacrifice when we vote. When we vote we say that we care enough about our country to not ignore those who died keeping it thus.


Don't be melodramatic.  They fought for no such thing, and they fought hand in hand with UK and US soliders who don't have compulsary voting.

It's about change. If you tried to change voting from optional to compulsory in the UK, you'd have mass protests and accusations of fascism on a grand scale. If you try to change the system in Australia from compulsory to voluntary, you might very well see the same thing, and Julia Gillard is jumping on the same "headless chook" bandwagon.   

People don't like change.  That's all it is. To some extent, I understand the "if it's not broke, don't try to fix it" point of view, but I'm all for encouraging people to think outside the box. 


it isnt melodramatic at all. they fought for our democracy which you lot seem so willing to dilute all for... well buggered if I can work out what is the advantage in voluntary voting besides pandering to the stupid, the lazy and the like.

don't assume that we ARENT thinking outside the box. perhaps some of us have thought about voluntary voting and decided on considerable thinking to reject it. Thinking 'outside the box' isnt intrinsically correct; if anything the opposite is true. An idea has to have considered merit regardless of where it came from.

I still haven't seen a single principled position behind voluntary voting other than the patently stupid accusation that compulsory voting is a breach of human rights. I still see mainly laziness as the motivation and/or a refusal to participate in the democracy we all benefit from.

Most curiously, this is a politics site where people refuse to vote??? what is with that?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:03pm
I have an interest in politics.

I have not bothered to vote in 4 of the last 5 elections where I have been eligible - mainly because I can't be bothered who wins.

Perfectly fine. It is my right to do so in Britain - something to do with being a western democratic free country....

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by pansi1951 on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:17pm

I have an interest in politics too and I don't always vote. I actually helped the greens out at the polling booth one year and didn't vote, so there goes the 'lazy' tag. Less people will vote, and there will be a lot more informal votes, as people, especially the youth, become disenfranchised with this current lot of pollies.

If either party want important votes, they should do something about the  49.8% youth unemployment in western Sydney. 

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by JC Denton on Jan 10th, 2013 at 7:22pm

Quote:
it isnt melodramatic at all. they fought for our democracy


retarded.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:20pm
Muso:


Quote:
Go on believing that if you like. It's the old fallacy of discarding information that's not in your favour. The works of Aristotle are "irrelevant" to you. The works of Thomas Jefferson are also irrelevant, as are the courses on political science at universities throughout the world


They are irrelevant to this debate muso. You appear to be arguing that anything improtant to you is relevant to whether voting should be compulsory. Your whole argument is built on drawing absurdly long bows, hence my constant and uinanswered requests to you for explanations about why it is relevant.


Quote:
Once again, freedom is the foundation of democracy AND  democracy is a way of achieving freedom. They are concepts that are intricately woven together. Erode one and you erode the other.


Nice generalisation Muso, but once you get specific, you have a hard time arguing that taking away someone's right to not vote undermines democracy? Is this why you keep escaping to vague arm waving waffle?


Quote:
The Greeks - but how does that affect my argument?  OK, but we're getting a bit off topic here.


Oh really? Who'd have thought that Muso's constant attempts to define demcoracy by Greek standards and to equate the right not to vote with freedom of the press would take people down irrelevant tangents?


Quote:
As you can see, democracies have varying interpretations, and the factor that sorts out the good liberal democracies from the democracies that are in name only, is freedom.


There, he is doing it again.

GM:


Quote:
firstly, it ISNT law nor is it even debated legislation. It is nothing more than a proposed idea that has been rejected by almost everyone and you are using a worst-case scenario. And your bleating about how good Europe is in human rights is a little silly since they are the home of the anti-discrimination legislation you hate so much.


They have even banned certain items of clothing. France puts an extreme version of secularism above freedom.


Quote:
Your 'human rights' are the ones you get to actually enjoy EVERY DAY. BTW the High Court has confirmed that the constitution has a protection of Free Speech in it.  We have a democracy that is regarded as 'among the worlds best and most stable'.


Partly because the outcome does not depend on which minority group gets most wound up on election day.

Hicks:


Quote:
The rest of the developed world also thinks forcing people to vote is absurd.


Argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy.


Quote:
A dictatorship forces people to vote.


So is argument by association.


Quote:
In a free society, if I believe that none of the candidates are any good, I have the option of not getting out of my chair and voting.


But you don't have the option of not being ruled by one of them.


Quote:
Democratic is - if I don't want to vote, then I don't.


I see you also struggle with the meaning of democracy.


Quote:
There is no reason to force people to vote.


Denying the existence of arguments made by your opposition is not the same as rationally countering them.


Quote:
It is why NOBODY has this system, you do realize that.


Do I need to explain why this is wrong Hicks?


Quote:
If I don't want to, then call it lazy if you like


Thanks, we will.


Quote:
What we are arguing is that it is wrong to tell people they have to.


Wow. You must have thought about this for like, 20 seconds.

Bigol:


Quote:
Like I said I'm more than happy to totally agree with us being the world's best at human rights if you can shown me where any of our rights actually exist


Reality isn't good enough for you? You need a piece of paper instead?

Muso:


Quote:
Don't be melodramatic.  They fought for no such thing, and they fought hand in hand with UK and US soliders who don't have compulsary voting.


You seem to have missed the point GM was making. He was obviously not implying that they fought for compulsory voting.


Quote:
People don't like change.  That's all it is. To some extent, I understand the "if it's not broke, don't try to fix it" point of view, but I'm all for encouraging people to think outside the box.


You can start by finally explaining the relevance of your argument, beyond vague and meaningless word association games.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 10th, 2013 at 8:48pm
Pay Freediver and Gold Medal..
both of you have put forward much more logical arguments than the oppo's... even Muso seems bogged down.... knows what he believes but can't really elucidate.

Just because many other 'democracies'  have Voluntary voting, does not make our system wrong. See?  Countries don't get to vote.... so the fact that more have taken one system, does not make a less utilised system undemocratic.

IE there in no world government, upon which single countries vote.

It really does come down to what life is like in the countries, for the voters.
And we are doing OK, in comparison..

No way could I afford to live as I do in the US or the UK.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 10th, 2013 at 9:22pm
My argument is that a good Liberal democracy depends on freedom, which includes rights. Obviously some freedom, such as the freedom to hurt somebody else, is harmful. Optional voting doesn't fall into that category. It hurts nobody.

Arguably the whole purpose of a democracy should be that of freedom, although it works both ways.

One of the recognised measures of the effectiveness of a democracy is that of its participation rate. Any compulsory voting system will mask that measure of effectiveness.

It is obvious to blind Freddy that democracies differ in interpretation, and you don't need a university degree in political science to  understand that. Although it's not a major part of my argument, I have quoted the works of great thinkers such as Aristotle and Thomas Jefferson.

I'm not talking about how the Ancient Greeks introduced democracy as anything particularly special, or the current system in the US for that matter. What counted much more was how the thinkers of the day conceived the system operating.

They dwell to a large extent on the subject of freedom, and you find liberty/ freedom as common recurring themes in the birth of democracies. Liberté, égalité, fraternité was the catchcall of the French republic. You hear a lot more about freedom that about democracy.


Quote:
    A! fredome is a noble thing!
    Fredome mayss man to haiff liking;
    Fredome all solace to man giffis:
    He levys at ess that frely levys!

('Ah! Freedom is a noble thing!
Freedom makes man to have liking:
Freedom all solace to man gives:
He lives at ease that freely lives!)

John Barbour (1316-1395)

You can have freedom without democracy, but you can't have an effective democracy without freedom.

You can also have a democracy with no freedom. These are ineffective democracies - democracies in name only. If you reduce the freedom, you reduce the effectiveness of the democracy - not by very much perhaps, but it is tangible.

I argue that voting, whether voluntary or compulsory makes very little difference. Each has its advantages. This is interestingly enough, mirrored in the poll, which shows that a slight majority are in favour of a voluntary poll, but that on the whole, there is very little difference.

You argue that those people who are forced into a vote will somehow transform the electorate from one dominated by excitable minorities. I argue that the inclusion of people who would rather not be there, does not add any additional rationality to the poll or reduce "excitability" in any way.   

Compulsory voting might be a very slight erosion of freedom, but a little leads to more and more erosion of our freedom.

You can think of a democracy in terms of cold mathematical principles, but it's worthless unless you inject some freedom into that democracy, and take account of the nature of humanity - not cold number crunching - It has always been in the nature of humanity to yearn for freedom. The demo part of "demokratia" or "people-power".

Is it relevant to talk about the inspirations of people in older times when freedom was less universal? I'd argue that it is, because so many people these days take it for granted. If you want to know about freedom, listen to those who hungered for it - yes and fought for it.



It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model, and both are very different systems. Do you really think that would be the case, Jalane?

No, we'd remain uniquely Australian. It's in our nature.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 10th, 2013 at 9:45pm

Quote:
One of the recognised measures of the effectiveness of a democracy is that of its participation rate. Any compulsory voting system will mask that measure of effectiveness.


Is that the best you can come up with?


Quote:
You can also have a democracy with no freedom. These are ineffective democracies - democracies in name only.


You can have very effective democracy without the right to choose not to vote. Once again your argument boils down to meaningless word association.


Quote:
If you reduce the freedom, you reduce the effectiveness of the democracy - not by very much perhaps, but it is tangible.


This is not the case with compulsory voting. It is the opposite. If you would only move beyond silly word association to the topic at hand we could actually discuss this.


Quote:
I argue that voting, whether voluntary or compulsory makes very little difference.


Can you explain why this is relevant for democracy, but when it comes to freedom you flip this argument on its head?


Quote:
It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model


No, but we would take on the flaws in their democracy that are associated with optional voting.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 10th, 2013 at 9:51pm

freediver wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 9:45pm:

Quote:
One of the recognised measures of the effectiveness of a democracy is that of its participation rate. Any compulsory voting system will mask that measure of effectiveness.


Is that the best you can come up with?


So you think that reducing the transparency of the democratic process is an unsubstantial consideration?


Quote:
This is not the case with compulsory voting. It is the opposite. If you would only move beyond silly word association to the topic at hand we could actually discuss this.


So Democratic Freedom has gone from being a personal invention to a silly word association?  Thomas Jefferson would roll over in his grave.

You see democracy as being the objective. I see democratic freedom as being the objective.  There is a not so subtle difference.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:13pm

Quote:
So you think that reducing the transparency of the democratic process is an unsubstantial consideration?


It is reducing a proxy measure, that is all. This is no different to all of your other arm waving arguments.


Quote:
So Democratic Freedom has gone from being a personal invention to a silly word association?


Yes, because you use the fact that certain other freedoms are necessary for a functioning democracy to argue that compulsory voting somehow undermines democracy. If you prefer, it is an irrational argument by association.


Quote:
You see democracy as being the objective. I see democratic freedom as being the objective.  There is a not so subtle difference.


I think both freedom and democracy are important. I do not need to confuse the two to get my point across.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:16pm
Wow 357 posts in this thread so far, I'm going to go back and read them all.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Innocent bystander on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:17pm
Well that was boring.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by muso on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:28pm

freediver wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 10:13pm:
I think both freedom and democracy are important. I do not need to confuse the two to get my point across.


Do you think that the course extract from the University fo Hawaii was confusing the two also?

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 10th, 2013 at 11:33pm
this is all good...
the title of this thread , perhaps jumps the gun.
It is after all just one of the issues upon which public comment is sought.

I have always thought upon 'compulsory voting'  ,, from when I became entitled to vote.
  But I guess my point is........

even tho I resented the compulsory vote, I nevertheless understood that it was a RIGHT.,.and a RESPONSIBILITY. To participate in my society, I see the vote as the ultimate franchise. To deny that responsibility, really only makes me feel cynical, disassociated and selfish. I've even voted for the Marijuana Party, when it was on the list of options.  ;D.

FREEDOM...  should not mean... the right to do 'whatever you will'... clearly there are Laws to rein-in that freedom. I don't think anyone would argue that ..do what you want... is the definition of freedom.

I do take the point Muso, however , that freedom is a precious thing which should be fought for. That any diminution of that is not good.
Whether or not voting is compulsory,  is , IMO, a minuscule consideration in comparison to the missing freedoms we SHOULD have, BUT do NOT.
I won't go on to name them as I'm sure you can recognise them yourselves.

Voluntary voting isn't even on the list... and .. I do now believe that the list of freedoms lost, would only increase under Voluntary voting..
if we care about the society we live in, we MUST vote,  and I find it a little sad that so many people argue for the right to deny this reality...and want to leave it all to somebody else to decide.

But I do understand  ...  until my mid 20's I was a-political...  had no interest, saw no relevance, didn't care.  (ALTHO I DID VOTE)

That changed when I returned to reside permanently in QLD.
Joh-Bjelke Petersen was the Premier.

Probably means nothing to those either too young, or resident elsewhere,  BUT  it opened my eyes.

Now we have C Newman,  who in his opening address in Parliament,  praised and held up for admiration,,(make that worship), ....Joh Bjelke-Petersen.
No greater insult could have been offered by him.   to his opponents.

So we'll see won't we??i





Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 10th, 2013 at 11:41pm
It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model, and both are very different systems. Do you really think that would be the case, Jalane?

No, we'd remain uniquely Australian. It's in our nature. - MUSO

I'm not so sure about that as you Muso.

I can quite easily see us going the US route..
Just look at the propaganda we endure now... and then + that by 200%

Not the UK route tho.... that is too hard for people who only seek power for the sake of it... the Westminster system is still IMO the best Law we can hope to achieve..

and even there we are falling short.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 11th, 2013 at 5:09am
Voting is useless. You get a really complicated way of choosing between 2 parties that are exactly the same and you cant even guarantee its the person you voted for that gets in. Then to make it worse there are no checks and balances here so its very likely rigged anyway (as if it matters because tweedle dee and tweedledum will all bugger you over anyway). Its not democracy.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 11th, 2013 at 6:24am

muso wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 9:22pm:
My argument is that a good Liberal democracy depends on freedom, which includes rights. Obviously some freedom, such as the freedom to hurt somebody else, is harmful. Optional voting doesn't fall into that category. It hurts nobody.

Arguably the whole purpose of a democracy should be that of freedom, although it works both ways.

One of the recognised measures of the effectiveness of a democracy is that of its participation rate. Any compulsory voting system will mask that measure of effectiveness.

It is obvious to blind Freddy that democracies differ in interpretation, and you don't need a university degree in political science to  understand that. Although it's not a major part of my argument, I have quoted the works of great thinkers such as Aristotle and Thomas Jefferson.

I'm not talking about how the Ancient Greeks introduced democracy as anything particularly special, or the current system in the US for that matter. What counted much more was how the thinkers of the day conceived the system operating.

They dwell to a large extent on the subject of freedom, and you find liberty/ freedom as common recurring themes in the birth of democracies. Liberté, égalité, fraternité was the catchcall of the French republic. You hear a lot more about freedom that about democracy.


Quote:
    A! fredome is a noble thing!
    Fredome mayss man to haiff liking;
    Fredome all solace to man giffis:
    He levys at ess that frely levys!

('Ah! Freedom is a noble thing!
Freedom makes man to have liking:
Freedom all solace to man gives:
He lives at ease that freely lives!)

John Barbour (1316-1395)

You can have freedom without democracy, but you can't have an effective democracy without freedom.

You can also have a democracy with no freedom. These are ineffective democracies - democracies in name only. If you reduce the freedom, you reduce the effectiveness of the democracy - not by very much perhaps, but it is tangible.

I argue that voting, whether voluntary or compulsory makes very little difference. Each has its advantages. This is interestingly enough, mirrored in the poll, which shows that a slight majority are in favour of a voluntary poll, but that on the whole, there is very little difference.

You argue that those people who are forced into a vote will somehow transform the electorate from one dominated by excitable minorities. I argue that the inclusion of people who would rather not be there, does not add any additional rationality to the poll or reduce "excitability" in any way.   

Compulsory voting might be a very slight erosion of freedom, but a little leads to more and more erosion of our freedom.

You can think of a democracy in terms of cold mathematical principles, but it's worthless unless you inject some freedom into that democracy, and take account of the nature of humanity - not cold number crunching - It has always been in the nature of humanity to yearn for freedom. The demo part of "demokratia" or "people-power".

Is it relevant to talk about the inspirations of people in older times when freedom was less universal? I'd argue that it is, because so many people these days take it for granted. If you want to know about freedom, listen to those who hungered for it - yes and fought for it.



It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model, and both are very different systems. Do you really think that would be the case, Jalane?

No, we'd remain uniquely Australian. It's in our nature.


I would dispute that supposed correlation. There are countries where the participation rate is very high and very enthusiastic. Libya for example or Egypt. There is no way you would describe them as democracies yet. we have a fairly low participation rate in the democratic process because we are used to it working well on its own. that doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage and yes REQUIRE some level of participation. Again, we are regarded as one of the worlds most robust and stable democracies. That didn't happen by accident.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 11th, 2013 at 7:45am

muso wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 9:22pm:
It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model, and both are very different systems. Do you really think that would be the case, Jalane?

No, we'd remain uniquely Australian. It's in our nature.


You are right I believe although we would inevitably move closer to one of the models than we are today.

We would be almost certain to lose any impact from independents and other than the big two other parties’ would be substantially diminished likely to even disappear or be inconsequential.

A real two party system with little other choice is similar to the foreign positions pointed too and inevitable in this proposed landscape.

Our system of mandatory voting is what has given us the many options we have a change to undermine that position would detract from our democracy limiting choice and putting power in hands which may not be in everyone’s best interests (minority interest groups).

If democracy is giving people a say in running the joint then to substantially remove voting options is a limiting factor which effectively undermines that position.

We not only have the right to vote we have multiple options to vote for, this is in my opinion a position well worth protecting.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Spot of Borg on Jan 11th, 2013 at 8:02am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 11th, 2013 at 7:45am:
We not only have the right to vote we have multiple options to vote for, this is in my opinion a position well worth protecting.


No we dont because all the votes end up going for 1 of the 2.

SOB

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Andrei.Hicks on Jan 11th, 2013 at 8:10am
Preferential voting is absolutely retarded and is no wonder we in the UK gave it a resounding NO.

I voted NO to that absurd system that could see a guy finishing 4th become the winner.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 11th, 2013 at 5:04pm

Emma wrote on Jan 10th, 2013 at 11:41pm:
It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model, and both are very different systems. Do you really think that would be the case, Jalane?

No, we'd remain uniquely Australian. It's in our nature. - MUSO

I'm not so sure about that as you Muso.

I can quite easily see us going the US route..
Just look at the propaganda we endure now... and then + that by 200%

Not the UK route tho.... that is too hard for people who only seek power for the sake of it... the Westminster system is still IMO the best Law we can hope to achieve..

and even there we are falling short.


the UK model IS our model to a very large degree. the Westminster system.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 11th, 2013 at 5:05pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 11th, 2013 at 8:10am:
Preferential voting is absolutely retarded and is no wonder we in the UK gave it a resounding NO.

I voted NO to that absurd system that could see a guy finishing 4th become the winner.


and if margaret thatcher or your father approved of it, so would you - and for the same reasons.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Dnarever on Jan 11th, 2013 at 7:55pm

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jan 11th, 2013 at 8:02am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 11th, 2013 at 7:45am:
We not only have the right to vote we have multiple options to vote for, this is in my opinion a position well worth protecting.


No we dont because all the votes end up going for 1 of the 2.

SOB



I not only get a first vote but if that doesn't work out I get a second vote?

Thats just great isn't it.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 11th, 2013 at 8:56pm

Quote:
Do you think that the course extract from the University fo Hawaii was confusing the two also?


No Muso, the only thing that was confusing was your attempt to equate the right not to vote with the freedoms that are essential for a functioning democracy.


Quote:
I voted NO to that absurd system that could see a guy finishing 4th become the winner.


You only win if 50% or more of the population prefer you to the next most popular candidate. You can come first on first preferences with 1% of the vote, if there are enough candidates.


Quote:
I not only get a first vote but if that doesn't work out I get a second vote?


Many people are confused about this. I blame the term preferential voting. The Americans call it instant runoff voting. That makes more sense. It means what it says - there are multiple elections, and everybody gets to vote in each round.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 11th, 2013 at 9:09pm

gold_medal wrote on Jan 11th, 2013 at 5:04pm:
[quote author=jalane3311@yahoo.c link=1357175556/362#362 date=1357825294]It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model, and both are very different systems. Do you really think that would be the case, Jalane?

No, we'd remain uniquely Australian. It's in our nature. - MUSO

I'm not so sure about that as you Muso.

I can quite easily see us going the US route..
Just look at the propaganda we endure now... and then + that by 200%

Not the UK route tho.... that is too hard for people who only seek power for the sake of it... the Westminster system is still IMO the best Law we can hope to achieve..

and even there we are falling short.


the UK model IS our model to a very large degree. the Westminster system.[/quote]

Yes GM  i realise that...  it is the model... which we have adjusted.

For example ,, compulsory voting.
We also no longer rely on the 'Privy Council' as the ultimate recourse in our Law.



Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by gold_medal on Jan 12th, 2013 at 8:26am

Emma wrote on Jan 11th, 2013 at 9:09pm:

gold_medal wrote on Jan 11th, 2013 at 5:04pm:
[quote author=jalane3311@yahoo.c link=1357175556/362#362 date=1357825294]It's preposterous to think that by making voting voluntary would catapult us into either the the UK model or the US model, and both are very different systems. Do you really think that would be the case, Jalane?

No, we'd remain uniquely Australian. It's in our nature. - MUSO

I'm not so sure about that as you Muso.

I can quite easily see us going the US route..
Just look at the propaganda we endure now... and then + that by 200%

Not the UK route tho.... that is too hard for people who only seek power for the sake of it... the Westminster system is still IMO the best Law we can hope to achieve..

and even there we are falling short.


the UK model IS our model to a very large degree. the Westminster system.[/quote]

Yes GM  i realise that...  it is the model... which we have adjusted.

For example ,, compulsory voting.
We also no longer rely on the 'Privy Council' as the ultimate recourse in our Law.


the differences are just around the edges. The Privy Council is effectively the same as our High Court. The house of Lords is similar to our Seante except our is elected. The vast array of details of how politics and govt are structured are identical.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 12th, 2013 at 9:23am
Preferential and compulsory voting are pretty big differences - in my opinion more significant than the machinations of westminster vs the US presidential system.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 12th, 2013 at 11:20am
Reading the discussion paper now. Some notes:

Claims legislation passed in 1992 and 2011 were designed to benefit political parties.

The Bligh government introduced 'additional administrative funding' in 2011 which has already been abolished by the new government. 

Criticises administrative burden of 2011 legislation.

The first half is about political donations that are intended for use during the campaign period. No caps or reporting requirements apply for other donations.


Draft feedback:

Part A:

Political donations:

I support option C - we should copy NSW's ban on donations by corporations and organisations (ie donations from individual people on the state electoral roll only).

I support option G - The law should focus more on continuous disclosure rather than limiting or capping donations.

Reporting requirements should be extended to cover all donations, not just those intended for use during campaign periods.

It is not too onerous to expect parties to maintain state campaign accounts.

I do not support the UK model that allows donations from unions provided there are internal voting systems, unless voting is a compulsory part of membership.

Public funding:

I support option A.

All additional funding introduced in 2011 should be scrapped. An amount of approximately $1.7 per first preference vote is reasonable. The expenses included should be broadened beyond campaign funding. Proof of expenditure requirements should be scrapped if these are unlikely to make any difference to the amount spent or the amount claimed (ie, if profiteering is unlikely). If profiteering is likely, this is evidence that the per vote funding amount is too high.

The method of calculating reimbursements (fractions of percents) is absurd. As far as I can tell it is equivalent to a fixed percentage of total expenditure.

The party or parties that gain office should have their reimbursement reduced by 20%, to account for the additional exposure they obtain with office.

Election Expenditure:

I support options A, C, D, E with the qualifications below. I oppose option F.

I am in favour of caps on expenditure as a means of leveling the playing field for parties that do not get as many private donations. Given the lower population and lower advertising costs, these limits should be lower than those in NSW (as they currently are).

I support the aggregation of affiliated entities with parties, under the narrow definition used in QLD as well as the NSW definition (entities that play a role within the party). These definitions should not be broadened.

I would also support aggregation of expenditure by other organisations based on the purpose of the advertising, rather than the nature of the organisation and the formality of links to the parties involved.

I support the proposed amendments regarding the exclusion of 'non-partisan' polling as expenditure.

I oppose the suggested change to the definition of volunteer labor. The cap on expenditure should focus on advertising reach rather than 'behind the scenes' effort.

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 13th, 2013 at 1:42pm
Some changes and additions:

Draft feedback:

Part A:

A1) Political donations:

I support option C - we should copy NSW's ban on donations by corporations and organisations (ie donations from individual people on the state electoral roll only).

I support option G - The law should focus more on continuous disclosure rather than limiting or capping donations.

Reporting requirements should be extended to cover all donations, not just those intended for use during campaign periods.

It is not too onerous to expect parties to maintain state campaign accounts.

I do not support the UK model that allows donations from unions provided there are internal voting systems, unless voting is a compulsory part of membership.

A2) Public funding:

I support option A.

All additional funding introduced in 2011 should be scrapped. An amount of approximately $1.7 per first preference vote is reasonable. The expenses included should be broadened beyond campaign funding. Proof of expenditure requirements should be scrapped if these are unlikely to make any difference to the amount spent or the amount claimed (ie, if profiteering is unlikely). If profiteering is likely, this is evidence that the per vote funding amount is too high.

The method of calculating reimbursements (fractions of percents) is absurd. As far as I can tell it is equivalent to a fixed percentage of total expenditure.

The party or parties that gain office should have their reimbursement reduced by 20%, to account for the additional exposure they obtain with office.

A3) Election Expenditure:

I support options A and E, and may support options C and D with the qualifications below. I oppose option F.

I am in favour of caps on expenditure as a means of leveling the playing field for parties that do not get as many private donations. Given the lower population and lower advertising costs, these limits should be lower than those in NSW (as they currently are).

I am concerned that attempts to aggregate affiliated entities may create bias. Defining an affiliated entity by the formality of the links with the party is too arbitrary. I would oppose a definition of affiliated entitties that included unions, but excluded industry lobby groups, for example the groups that campaigned against the carbon and minin taxes.

I would also support aggregation of expenditure by other organisations based on the purpose of the advertising, rather than the nature of the organisation and the formality of links to the parties involved.

I support the proposed amendments regarding the exclusion of 'non-partisan' polling as expenditure.

I oppose the suggested change to the definition of volunteer labor. The cap on expenditure should focus on advertising reach rather than 'behind the scenes' effort.

Part B:

B1) Truth in Advertising:

I oppose the introduction of truth in political advertising legislation, for the reasons outlined in the discussion paper.

B2) How to vote cards:

I support option A, oppose option B, C and D.

I support the measures introduced in Victoria for greater transparency in how to vote cards (ie they should be published on the ECQ website). I think the requirement for lodgement 7 days prior to election day is excessive. I think it should be allowable to submit on the day prior to polling, pending administrative issues.

I oppose any penalty for misleading statements on how to vote cards or any requirement for review of how to vote cards. I think that transparency alone is sufficient.

I oppose bans on how to vote cards, except based on distance from the polling booth. Six meters is an apporpriate distance. One exception to this is under Optional preferential voting. Under this scheme how to vote cards should be banned as they encourage voters to disenfranchise themselves.

I do not see a need to regulat the behaviour of people who hand out how to vote cards.

B3) Proof of identity

I oppose requirements for proof of identity to be provided.

B4) Enrollment on polling day:

I support enrollment on polling day, provided appropriate measures such as quarantining are taken.

B5) Electronic Voting:

I support electronic voting for all voters, including over the internet, provided security issues can be resolved.

B6) Postal voting.

I support all options proposed. Postal voting should be open to all voters and made as convenient as possible. I think deadlines should be brought forward and there should be a requirement that postal votes are recieved by the ECQ prior to the close of polls. A separate class of postal votes could be introduced for this purpose, that allow people who need a postal vote by the cuirrent restricted criteria to submit later.


Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by freediver on Jan 13th, 2013 at 1:42pm
B7) Compulsory voting:

I support compulsory voting for the reasons given, plus more, as outlined below:

Democracy refers to the will of the majority. Allowing a minorty to dictate the election outcome is undemocratic. The discussion paper is highly misleading in suggesting that it is undemocratic to force people to vote. This does not make sense and indicates lack of awareness of the meaning of democracy. Also, the relevance of the reference to other countries is questionable and certainly does not support the claim that compulsory voting is undemocratic.

An increase in the number of informal votes is not a valid argument against compulsory voting. The discussion paper made the opposite argument in claiming that secret ballot provisions mean people are not forced to vote for anyone.

An increase in the number of safe electorates is also not a valid argument against compulsory voting. If those electorates are safe because the majority support one party, it is entirely approrpiate and democratic. It is undemocratic to make them unsafe by introducing a provision that would allow a minority to potentially dictate the outcome.

The joint standing committee on electoral matters was correct to remove the reference to the maturity of a democracy in its reports after 1996. It is absurd to claim that one position is more mature than the other, and points to a lack of a rational argument in facour of optional voting.

B8) Voting System

I oppose optional preferential voting and support full preferential voting, for the reasons outlined here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/optional-preferential-voting.html

The discussion paper suggests that OPV allows people to express their 'true' intentions. This is meaningless spin, unless the 'true intentions' are self disenfranchisement.

The discussion paper claims that OPV captures only those preferences that people actually hold, but fails to mention that preferences not actually held are unlikely to be expressed because the preferences will not be distributed beyond the major parties. Not ranking candidates under OPV is an expression of preference, as unranked candidates are assumed by the system to be below ranked candidates.

Saving voters' time, easier scrutineering etc are hardly strong arguments in favour of OPV.

I support the 'savings provisions' recommended by the joint standing committee, which allow ballots with numbering errors to be counted up to where the error began.

B9) Other matters:

QLD should introduce a 20 member senate based on voting by delegable proxy, for the reasons outlined here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/electoral-reform/voting-by-delegable-proxy.html

Title: Re: Campbell Newman to scrap compulsory voting in QLD
Post by Emma Peel on Jan 13th, 2013 at 11:01pm
that was really excellent Freediver... 

I didn't read it all, but, I scanned it and I find myself in agreement with your overall assessment.

I think QLD should a 2nd House..... that's the only way to reduce the chance of corruption at the highest levels.

Bring back the Senate.!!

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