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Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Does freedom have a meaning? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1341115826 Message started by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:10pm |
Title: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:10pm
From the thread "Is This What We Can Look Forward To? "
abu_rashid wrote on Jun 24th, 2012 at 3:02pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Jun 27th, 2012 at 8:21pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 11:24pm:
Pretty much every single Muslim charged with "terrorism" offences has merely been a critic of the government and its policies. They have not actually been convicted of committing any act whatsoever, they merely thought or expressed ideas. Yet you think you live in a system that has unlimited political freedom. You're a dreamer. freediver wrote on Jun 29th, 2012 at 1:05pm:
Which of them actually prepared an attack? Some of them were convicted merely for asking what the Islamic ruling is on committing such acts. This was twisted into "seeking a fatwa to carry out the act", and then bang, half their life wasted in prison.... but never mind, we live in a country of unlimited political freedom, back to your little dreamworld fd. Nevermind the reality, keep ignoring it.[/quote] freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 9:10am:
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Can you give an example of one from Australia? Do you realise that the example you gave is not from Australia and did not involve a conviction?[/quote] abu_rashid wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 12:07pm:
Can you give an example of one from Australia? Do you realise that the example you gave is not from Australia and did not involve a conviction?[/quote] I did not state it was from Australia. Learn to read more carefully. Why are you asking me to produce something, when I've asked you several posts ago now, to produce a case of Muslims who have been convicted here for actually being engaged in any act to commit harm to Australians. Clearly you cannot, hence your attempt to turn the questions around, without answering them (modus operandi for you isn't it?)[/quote] freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:30pm:
No, but I have been asking you for examples from Australia for the last half dozen or so posts. And you have been claiming that we do not have these freedoms. I am Australian, and you claim to be Australian, despite having no idea what Australia is like. So, do you have any examples from Australia? Are we in fact free to criticise the government's foreign policy in a way that Islam would never permit? Or are you suggesting that we are not allowed to criticise the government, but that no-one has ever actually done so, hence the lack of convictions? Are you confusing the public condemnation of Islam and it's barbaric ways, with some kind of illegality to believe or promote Islam? Quote:
Because the argument is about whether we are free to criticise the government, not whether we are free to blow up busses. BTW, I did give an example.[/quote] |
Title: Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning? Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:12pm
I think this sums up western freedom.
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Title: Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning? Post by Morning Mist on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:41pm bobbythefap1 wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:12pm:
A trip to North Korea will make it clear to you what freedom in the West is. |
Title: Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning? Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:42pm Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 2:41pm:
Different method same product. |
Title: Re: Does freedom mean have a meaning? Post by falah on Jul 1st, 2012 at 3:14pm
North Korea: media controlled by one megalomaniac
Australia: media controlled by three billionaire megalomaniancs Logic? 3 megalomanics is better than 1 |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:56pm
Puppet and Falah, do you believe that we are free to criticise the government in Australia? Would you prefer a system like Islam where you can get the death penalty for saying the wrong thing? Can either of you think of a context in which Islam can legitimately be described as political freedom? Am I breaking Australian law, as Abu suggests, by allowing you to promote Islam?
Or do you all equate being ignored by the majority and not getting your way with not being free to have an opinion? |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:10pm freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:56pm:
Why punish people for criticising the government when it has no real effect anyway? As I have stated before we live in a smart and calculated dictatorship. It doesn't take a genius to work out that you don't need to do that stuff to have an effective dictatorship, in fact it makes it more effective in the long run. But in saying that we do see a lot of examples of people being punished for speaking bad against the government. The occupy protesters got the heads cracked in for example. Most people dont even critcise the real problems anyway, its no skin of the governments shoulder if people are bickering about the stuff most people do. If every started to critisice the real problems, much like occupy started to do then we would see more authoritarianism. We have been on a downward spiral. Freedoms are being removed ever so slowly, people are becoming ever more complacent and the chances of successfully challenging the real problems in our world are almost 0% now. Where exactly do you get the idea that your views are of the majority? It would seem it is the exact opposite now a days. Is there a poll or something? |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:20pm Quote:
In Australia? Quote:
So the problem is not that we aren't free to say what we think, the problem is that people don't agree with you about what the problem is? Can you suggest what people might have to say in order to get the government to crack down on people speaking their mind? Quote:
So what do you mean by freedom? Do you mean the non-freedom that Abu promotes? Would you prefer a system like Islam where you can get the death penalty for saying the wrong thing? Or are you one of those people who claim to support freedom but cannot bring yourself to criticise those who would take it away, unless it suits your political agenda? Quote:
What views in particular are you talking about? I am definitely in the majority here in supporting freedom and democracy. I would probably be in the majority in every country in the world. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:27pm Quote:
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I don't know what Abu promotes. As opposed to going to jail and being ass raped? I do criticise what happens in other places, Islam being one example. You are the only one here who cannot bring yourself to criticise those who would take it away, even when they steal it from right in front of you. You are the one who is blind to issues that impair you political agendas. Quote:
You said.. Quote:
So that would mean I am in the majority as well if its about wanting freedom and democracy. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:36pm
Puppet, the reason you think we live in a dictatorship is not because you aren't free to criticise the government (or would lose that freedom), but because you are incapable of convincing others of your views, whatever they are. Given that you won't even tell people what your views are, this is hardly surprising. Rather than acknowledge the possibility that you are wrong, you invent a grand conspiracy involving a dictatorship that doesn't actually oppress anyone and that let's their opposition openly compete against them, as if this is some kind of sneaky scheme to trick people into thinking they are free.
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Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by falah on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:42pm freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 5:56pm:
Can you explain to us the sedition law introduced by john Howard? Western governments have shifty ways of dealing with people like Julian Assange, David Hicks, Mamdouh Habib, Bilal Khazal. On 25 September 2009 the Supreme Court of New South Wales sentenced Bilal Khazal to 14 years in prison, with a non-parole period of 9 years for postin an article on the internet. He spent three years in jail before his conviction was overturned. He is hated by Western governments for producing the Nidaul Islam magazine cited by the FBI as the most radical in the Western world in the late 90's. In 1996, Alfred Langer was jailed for attacking Australia's two-party duocracy: Quote:
The Australian Government regularly bans entry to foreign speakers critical of the current system of government. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by falah on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:54pm
Democracy is just another method of oppression.
Democracy often equals oppression of minorities by the majority. Recent examples: *Burka ban in Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and France. *Minaret ban in Switzerland. *Circumcision ban in Germany *Ban on polygamy in most Western countries. *Bans on kosher and halal meat slaughter in Netherlands *bans on ethnic minorities from joining elite military service in Singapore. *people forced to take out car and businesss insurance in Australia. There are some people on this forum that would argue that the majority has oppressed them in other ways: *ban in Europe and Israel on questioning holocaust dogma Let us remember that democratically elected governments: *stole children from Aborigines in Australia *stole land from native Americans in the USA *persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany. *steals land from Palestinians in Israel. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm Quote:
No. Can you? Quote:
So the best example you can give is of someone who had their conviction overturned? Quote:
Another great example - the supreme court let him out after three weeks, he thanked the AEC for the publicity, and has succeeded in having many laws changed in his favour. If that is the best you can come up with, it sounds more like the exception that proves the rule. Falah, do you think that our system is dominated by two parties because people freely choose those two parties, or because we aren't free to choose the other parties? Quote:
So Australians are not free because our freedoms are not extended to everyone in the world? Do you equate freedom with the absence of border control and no standards for who is allowed to enter the country? Quote:
I suppose that is a good sign if you can at least tell the difference between democracy and freedom. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by falah on Jul 1st, 2012 at 7:57pm freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm:
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freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm:
As I said, Western governments have ways of persecuting people. He spent three years in prison. That is a long tiome for an innocent man to spend in jail. Tony Abbott also made sure that Pauline Hanson was jailed. Quote:
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freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:58pm:
Australians are brainwashed by media moguls to vote for the duocracy. The duocracy is also sel-perpetuated with corrupt funding: Quote:
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Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:10pm Quote:
So you think the government wrongly convicts people then gets their conviction overturned as a deliberate ploy to persecute them? Wouldn't this effectively give the green light for people to do exactly what the government is trying to stop, at the same time as giving it lots of publicity? You are not making much sense Falah. Quote:
What percentage do you think vote for the 'duocracy'? It looks to me more more like a fairly level playing field with many competing parties and ideologies, whose following reasonably reflects their popularity. Like puppet, you appear to be inventing a grand conspiracy to explain why everyone still disagrees with you (despite you kindly informing them they are brainwashed) and to avoid facing the possibility you are wrong. Quote:
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Falah, do you realise that that money is to be spent on foreign projects? Do you think it is corrupt for Senators and MPs to get paid and have their expenses covered in a transparent manner? Aren't you merely demonstrating your freedom to criticise the government, no matter how absurd your criticism - something Abu thinks should not be allowed under Islam and that he insists is also not allowed in Australia? |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by abu_rashid on Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:47pm falah wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:54pm:
Or the way democratic countries like Australia were built on the backs of Pacific Islander Labourers Act was a way of disposing of the remainder of the 60,000 or so slaves the Australian founders had kidnapped and worked into the ground to build this "great nation". |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Morning Mist on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm abu_rashid wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:47pm:
How many slaves did the Muslims and Arabs have? Muslims and Arabs can have slaves but Anglos cannot? In reality, it was different times and therefore a different morality to today. Just another chance to put the boot in Australia huh. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:16pm abu_rashid wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 8:47pm:
Abu were these things you said about freedom wrong? Do you still think we are not free to criticise the government in a way that Islam would never allow? freediver wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:30pm:
No, but I have been asking you for examples from Australia for the last half dozen or so posts. And you have been claiming that we do not have these freedoms. I am Australian, and you claim to be Australian, despite having no idea what Australia is like. So, do you have any examples from Australia? Are we in fact free to criticise the government's foreign policy in a way that Islam would never permit? Or are you suggesting that we are not allowed to criticise the government, but that no-one has ever actually done so, hence the lack of convictions? Are you confusing the public condemnation of Islam and it's barbaric ways, with some kind of illegality to believe or promote Islam? Quote:
Because the argument is about whether we are free to criticise the government, not whether we are free to blow up busses. BTW, I did give an example.[/quote] |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by abu_rashid on Jul 4th, 2012 at 7:55pm Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm:
It was only a century ago. Slavery was supposedly abolished. They were called "indentured workers". Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 9:11pm:
For such actions, more than a boot was deserved. That's despicable, and the same kind of mentality exists today amongst people like yourself. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Soren on Jul 4th, 2012 at 8:11pm The pertinent point remains: freedom is a better ideal than sharia Islamism, as can be seen by comparing the best examples of when each is approximated in practice. Places that come closest to the ideals of freedom and democracy are incomparably better in every respect than places that come closest to sharia-compliant Islamism. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 4th, 2012 at 9:09pm
Odd how Abu has gone so silent on the topic of freedom. Perhaps he is still trying to make up his mind about whether he rejects freedom or merely 'offers a different interpretation' of it.
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Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Yadda on Jul 4th, 2012 at 10:04pm
Does freedom have a meaning?
FD, What meaning does 'freedom' have, in a society where law courts commonly refuse to remove those convicted of criminal acts, from society ? [.....or, e.g. where people guilty of negligent manslaughter walk free, or can 'suffer' 2-3 years of goal time - for effectively taking a life.] In such a society, does 'freedom' then mean that anyone/everyone is free to do whatever they like ? Another Q... FD, If 'freedom' is [effectively] a licence from all lawful restraint, what is the quality of such 'freedom' ? +++ I think what i am trying to say is; Wouldn't a society have a higher quality of living [and internal safety], if standards of justice and law and 'righteousness' among its citizenry were emphasised [and taught!], rather than an emphasis on the rights of citizens to enjoy their 'freedom' [i.e. a 'licence' to effectively, act as they wish, without consequences] ? Doesn't the word freedom [and its 'sibling' word, liberty], traditionally imply a positive quality ??? In a society like Australia, where has that quality', of enjoying freedom, gone to ? And why has it 'gone' ? IMO, if societal standards [of truth, and law, and justice] are low, then a consequence of that, will be that the quality of the [real] 'freedoms' of citizens within that society will also be low. IMO, we [Western societies] are suffering from the loss of [moral] values and [moral] standards, a loss, which we have whole heartedly embraced as a supposed 'positive' ! |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Yadda on Jul 5th, 2012 at 10:54am Yadda wrote on Jul 4th, 2012 at 10:04pm:
WHAT MAINTAINS AND PROTECTS THE FREEDOMS OF A SOCIETY ??? A functioning justice system, in a society of men, will, of itself, protect the rights and freedoms of the citizens of that society. But there can be no quality, or 'amenity' in the concept of 'freedom' [or of 'rights' !], in a society which [effectively] chooses to widely ignore [and chooses to tolerate] criminality [i.e. oppression and injustice] in its midst. Any culture of man which chooses to 'tolerate' lawlessness [i.e. oppression and injustice], will destroy itself, in that choice. Lawlessness, is an antonym of the word 'culture'. Dictionary; antonym = = a word opposite in meaning to another. Quote:
Yadda explains 'Universality' i.e. 'humanism' http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1299665041/55#55 and... an eye-opening analysis of terrorism in Europe http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294223444/30#30 Quote:
the right to choose what to wear http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1302598375/151#151 http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1302598375/158#158i Quote:
ban all 'religious' clothing http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1303119265/103#103iQuote:
Enlightenment values seen as 'had right' http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1325550886/107#107 |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by PoliticalPuppet on Jul 5th, 2012 at 11:07am freediver wrote on Jul 1st, 2012 at 6:36pm:
This is incorrect strawman. |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Morning Mist on Jul 5th, 2012 at 11:24am abu_rashid wrote on Jul 4th, 2012 at 7:55pm:
Spare me your righteousness and hypocrisy. Islam means submission, submission to Allah and all his laws. That's smacking slavery right there. Today in the West there is nothing remotely close to the slavery of old or the Islamic servitude found in the East (other than those who voluntarily submit to it). |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Elvis Wesley on Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:05pm |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by falah on Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:28pm
There are many verses in the Bible about taking slaves. Probably that is why Christians enslaved so many millions of people over the centuries and sent them to Brazil, Caribbean and USA.
The Quran, on the other hand, encourages the freeing of slaves. The truth about Islam can be found here: http://islamqa.info/en/ref/94840 |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by freediver on Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:33pm
Yadda:
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No. As an ideal it limits lawful restraint to the natural limits of freedom. That is, your freedom and human rights end where another person's begins. Your freedom to swing your arms ends at another person's nose. This is where you references to law come in. Quote:
Who has embraced it? I haven't. You haven't. Quote:
Puppet, can you offer a better interpretation of your claims here? Your argument is a common theme among extremists - that the majority of people only disagree with you because they are all deluded, or the government is tricking them, or they are not free to think the way you do but do not realise they lack this freedom. Quote:
And yet it took foreign interference from Christian Europe to finally abolish slavery in the middle east. The fact is that if you legalise slavery as Islam does, you make it inevitable, no matter how much you tell people it is nice to free the slaves. Falah, do you think that the biblical story of the freeing of the Jews from slavery encourages or discourages slavery? |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Baronvonrort on Jul 5th, 2012 at 1:58pm falah wrote on Jul 5th, 2012 at 12:28pm:
From your same website falah- Quote:
When doing your dawaganda you might attract more men to Islam if you point out muslim men can have sex slaves along with 4 wives. If Islam is against slavery why does an Islamic website say in 2012 that sex slaves are halal for muslim men? |
Title: Re: Does freedom have a meaning? Post by Yadda on Jul 8th, 2012 at 2:07am Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 5th, 2012 at 1:58pm:
Baronvonrort, The fact that that particular ISLAMIC website projects two contradictory concepts [of how ISLAM regards human 'slavery'] is a very good example of the duplicitous nature of ISLAM [and of moslems, who choose to adopt ISLAM's tenets]. i.e. Where it serves ISLAM's interests [e.g. recruitment], ISLAM will present itself as pro-slavery. And where it serves ISLAM's interests ["ISLAM is virtuous."], ISLAM will present itself as anti-slavery. Dictionary; duplicity = = 1 deceitfulness. 2 the quality of being double. |
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