So, what did the Muslims do for the Jews?

The JC Essay

By David J Wasserstein, May 24, 2012


Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth. The argument for it is double. First, in 570 CE, when the Prophet Mohammad was born, the Jews and Judaism were on the way to oblivion. And second, the coming of Islam saved them, providing a new context in which they not only survived, but flourished, laying foundations for subsequent Jewish cultural prosperity - also in Christendom - through the medieval period into the modern world.

By the fourth century, Christianity had become the dominant religion in the Roman empire. One aspect of this success was opposition to rival faiths, including Judaism, along with massive conversion of members of such faiths, sometimes by force, to Christianity. Much of our testimony about Jewish existence in the Roman empire from this time on consists of accounts of conversions.

Great and permanent reductions in numbers through conversion, between the fourth and the seventh centuries, brought with them a gradual but relentless whittling away of the status, rights, social and economic existence, and religious and cultural life of Jews all over the Roman empire.

A long series of enactments deprived Jewish people of their rights as citizens, prevented them from fulfilling their religious obligations, and excluded them from the society of their fellows.

This went along with the centuries-long military and political struggle with Persia. As a tiny element in the Christian world, the Jews should not have been affected much by this broad, political issue. Yet it affected them critically, because the Persian empire at this time included Babylon - now Iraq - at the time home to the world's greatest concentration of Jews.

Here also were the greatest centres of Jewish intellectual life. The most important single work of Jewish cultural creativity in over 3,000 years, apart from the Bible itself - the Talmud - came into being in Babylon. The struggle between Persia and Byzantium, in our period, led increasingly to a separation between Jews under Byzantine, Christian rule and Jews under Persian rule.

Beyond all this, the Jews who lived under Christian rule seemed to have lost the knowledge of their own culturally specific languages - Hebrew and Aramaic - and to have taken on the use of Latin or Greek or other non-Jewish, local, languages. This in turn must have meant that they also lost access to the central literary works of Jewish culture - the Torah, Mishnah, poetry, midrash, even liturgy.

The loss of the unifying force represented by language - and of the associated literature - was a major step towards assimilation and disappearance. In these circumstances, with contact with the one place where Jewish cultural life continued to prosper - Babylon - cut off by conflict with Persia, Jewish life in the Christian world of late antiquity was not simply a pale shadow of what it had been three or four centuries earlier. It was doomed.

Had Islam not come along, the conflict with Persia would have continued. The separation between western Judaism, that of Christendom, and Babylonian Judaism, that of Mesopotamia, would have intensified. Jewry in the west would have declined to disappearance in many areas. And Jewry in the east would have become just another oriental cult.

But this was all prevented by the rise of Islam. The Islamic conquests of the seventh century changed the world, and did so with dramatic, wide-ranging and permanent effect for the Jews.

Within a century of the death of Mohammad, in 632, Muslim armies had conquered almost the whole of the world where Jews lived, from Spain eastward across North Africa and the Middle East as far as the eastern frontier of Iran and beyond. Almost all the Jews in the world were now ruled by Islam. This new situation transformed Jewish existence. Their fortunes changed in legal, demographic, social, religious, political, geographical, economic, linguistic and cultural terms - all for the better.

First, things improved politically. Almost everywhere in Christendom where Jews had lived now formed part of the same political space as Babylon - Cordoba and Basra lay in the same political world. The old frontier between the vital centre in Babylonia and the Jews of the Mediterranean basin was swept away, forever.

Political change was partnered by change in the legal status of the Jewish population: although it is not always clear what happened during the Muslim conquests, one thing is certain. The result of the conquests was, by and large, to make the Jews second-class citizens.

This should not be misunderstood: to be a second-class citizen was a far better thing to be than not to be a citizen at all. For most of these Jews, second-class citizenship represented a major advance. In Visigothic Spain, for example, shortly before the Muslim conquest in 711, the Jews had seen their children removed from them and forcibly converted to Christianity and had themselves been enslaved.

In the developing Islamic societies of the classical and medieval periods, being a Jew meant belonging to a category defined under law, enjoying certain rights and protections, alongside various obligations. These rights and protections were not as extensive or as generous as those enjoyed by Muslims, and the obligations were greater but, for the first few centuries, the Muslims themselves were a minority, and the practical differences were not all that great.

Along with legal near-equality came social and economic equality. Jews were not confined to ghettos, either literally or in terms of economic activity. The societies of Islam were, in effect, open societies. In religious terms, too, Jews enjoyed virtually full freedom. They might not build many new synagogues - in theory - and they might not make too public their profession of their faith, but there was no really significant restriction on the practice of their religion. Along with internal legal autonomy, they also enjoyed formal representation, through leaders of their own, before the authorities of the state. Imperfect and often not quite as rosy as this might sound, it was at least the broad norm.

The political unity brought by the new Islamic world-empire did not last, but it created a vast Islamic world civilisation, similar to the older Christian civilisation that it replaced. Within this huge area, Jews lived and enjoyed broadly similar status and rights everywhere. They could move around, maintain contacts, and develop their identity as Jews. A great new expansion of trade from the ninth century onwards brought the Spanish Jews - like the Muslims - into touch with the Jews and the Muslims even of India.

A ll this was encouraged by a further, critical development. Huge numbers of people in the new world of Islam adopted the language of the Muslim Arabs. Arabic gradually became the principal language of this vast area, excluding almost all the rest: Greek and Syriac, Aramaic and Coptic and Latin all died out, replaced by Arabic. Persian, too, went into a long retreat, to reappear later heavily influenced by Arabic.

The Jews moved over to Arabic very rapidly. By the early 10th century, only 300 years after the conquests, Sa'adya Gaon was translating the Bible into Arabic. Bible translation is a massive task - it is not undertaken unless there is a need for it. By about the year 900, the Jews had largely abandoned other languages and taken on Arabic.

The change of language in its turn brought the Jews into direct contact with broader cultural developments. The result from the 10th century on was a striking pairing of two cultures. The Jews of the Islamic world developed an entirely new culture, which differed from their culture before Islam in terms of language, cultural forms, influences, and uses. Instead of being concerned primarily with religion, the new Jewish culture of the Islamic world, like that of its neighbours, mixed the religious and the secular to a high degree. The contrast, both with the past and with medieval Christian Europe, was enormous.

Like their neighbours, these Jews wrote in Arabic in part, and in a Jewish form of that language. The use of Arabic brought them close to the Arabs. But the use of a specific Jewish form of that language maintained the barriers between Jew and Muslim. The subjects that Jews wrote about, and the literary forms in which they wrote about them, were largely new ones, borrowed from the Muslims and developed in tandem with developments in Arabic Islam.

Also at this time, Hebrew was revived as a language of high literature, parallel to the use among the Muslims of a high form of Arabic for similar purposes. Along with its use for poetry and artistic prose, secular writing of all forms in Hebrew and in (Judeo-)Arabic came into being, some of it of high quality.

Much of the greatest poetry in Hebrew written since the Bible comes from this period. Sa'adya Gaon, Solomon Ibn Gabirol, Ibn Ezra (Moses and Abraham), Maimonides, Yehuda Halevi, Yehudah al-Harizi, Samuel ha-Nagid, and many more - all of these names, well known today, belong in the first rank of Jewish literary and cultural endeavour.

Where did these Jews produce all this? When did they and their neighbours achieve this symbiosis, this mode of living together? The Jews did it in a number of centres of excellence. The most outstanding of these was Islamic Spain, where there was a true Jewish Golden Age, alongside a wave of cultural achievement among the Muslim population. The Spanish case illustrates a more general pattern, too...

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/68082/so-what-did-muslims-do-jews

Cont'd

...What happened in Islamic Spain - waves of Jewish cultural prosperity paralleling waves of cultural prosperity among the Muslims - exemplifies a larger pattern in Arab Islam. In Baghdad, between the ninth and the twelfth centuries; in Qayrawan (in north Africa), between the ninth and the 11th centuries; in Cairo, between the 10th and the 12th centuries, and elsewhere, the rise and fall of cultural centres of Islam tended to be reflected in the rise and fall of Jewish cultural activity in the same places.

This was not coincidence, and nor was it the product of particularly enlightened liberal patronage by Muslim rulers. It was the product of a number of deeper features of these societies, social and cultural, legal and economic, linguistic and political, which together enabled and indeed encouraged the Jews of the Islamic world to create a novel sub-culture within the high civilisation of the time.

This did not last for ever; the period of culturally successful symbiosis between Jew and Arab Muslim in the middle ages came to a close by about 1300. In reality, it had reached this point even earlier, with the overall relative decline in the importance and vitality of Arabic culture, both in relation to western European cultures and in relation to other cultural forms within Islam itself; Persian and Turkish.

Jewish cultural prosperity in the middle ages operated in large part as a function of Muslim, Arabic cultural (and to some degree political) prosperity: when Muslim Arabic culture thrived, so did that of the Jews; when Muslim Arabic culture declined, so did that of the Jews.

In the case of the Jews, however, the cultural capital thus created also served as the seed-bed of further growth elsewhere - in Christian Spain and in the Christian world more generally.

The Islamic world was not the only source of inspiration for the Jewish cultural revival that came later in Christian Europe, but it certainly was a major contributor to that development. Its significance cannot be overestimated.

David J Wasserstein is the Eugene Greener Jr Professor of Jewish Studies at Vanderbilt University. This article is adapted from last week's Jordan Lectures in Comparative Religion at the School of Oriental and African Studies.

http://www.thejc.com/comment-and-debate/comment/68082/so-what-did-muslims-do-jews

falah wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 1:14am:

The Jews moved over to Arabic very rapidly. By the early 10th century, only 300 years after the conquests, Sa'adya Gaon was translating the Bible into Arabic. Bible translation is a massive task - it is not undertaken unless there is a need for it. By about the year 900, the Jews had largely abandoned other languages and taken on Arabic.

As their own language is just like a corrupted form of Arabic, it's no surprise they'd easily adopt Arabic. After all it would've been like them going back to the language of Moses & Abraham (pbut).

Even today in occupied Palestine, they try to revive their language by modelling it on Arabic, as Arabic is the most pristine form of Semitic language alive.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 7:33am:

falah wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 1:14am: The Jews moved over to Arabic very rapidly. By the early 10th century, only 300 years after the conquests, Sa'adya Gaon was translating the Bible into Arabic. Bible translation is a massive task - it is not undertaken unless there is a need for it. By about the year 900, the Jews had largely abandoned other languages and taken on Arabic. As their own language is just like a corrupted form of Arabic, it's no surprise they'd easily adopt Arabic. After all it would've been like them going back to the language of Moses & Abraham (pbut). Even today in occupied Palestine, they try to revive their language by modelling it on Arabic, as Arabic is the most pristine form of Semitic language alive.

The way Israelis talk is ugly. It sounds like Arabic's ugly step-sister.

falah wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 1:15am:

Jewish cultural prosperity in the middle ages operated in large part as a function of Muslim, Arabic cultural (and to some degree political) prosperity: when Muslim Arabic culture thrived, so did that of the Jews; when Muslim Arabic culture declined, so did that of the Jews. In the case of the Jews, however, the cultural capital thus created also served as the seed-bed of further growth elsewhere - in Christian Spain and in the Christian world more generally.

There's the difference between the Jews and the Muslims, spelled out.

The Muslim Golden Age went to seed, rather than serve as the seed-bed of flourishing. What happened? More Islam. A stricter Islam put an end to the Golden Age and there has been no recovery from that for 800 years.

And now, the numpties of islam are calling for what? A new Golden Age of learning? Of course not. They are calling for stricter Islam.

Abu, falah, you are agents of decline and cultural strangulation.

Verily! Those who believe, and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in (the Oneness of) God and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
(  The Quran, al-Baqara,  v. 62)

Say: "O people of the Scripture (Jews): Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God (Alone), and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. Then, if they turn away, say: "Bear witness that we are Muslims."
(The Quran, Aali Imran, v. 64)



And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a small gain, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account.
(The Quran, Aali Imran, v. 199)



And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism), except with such of them as do wrong; and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our god (God) and your god (God) is One (i.e. God), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
(The Quran, al-Ankaboot, v.46)

Say: "Believe in it (the Qur'an) or do not believe (in it). Verily those who were given knowledge before it (the Jews  like Rabbi Abdullah bin Salam, and Christian scholars like Salman the Persian), when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration."
(The Quran, al-Isra, v. 107)


Those to whom We have given the Bible (such as Rabbi Abdullah bin Salam and other Jews who converted to Islam), rejoice at what has been revealed unto you (i.e. the Qur'an), but there are among the Confederates (from the Jews and pagans) those who reject a part thereof (from the Quran). Say: "I am commanded only to worship God (Alone) and not to join partners with Him. To Him (Alone) I call and to Him is my return."
(The Quran, Ar-Ra'd, v.36)



Narrated Anas: When Abdullah bin Salam (Jewish rabbi) heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: "What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" God's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." God's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and his discharge (sperm) overpowers that of his wife (egg), the child will resemble the father, and if that which is discharged by the woman (egg) overpowers the man's (sperm), the child will resemble her." On that Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of God." Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O God's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me." The Jews came to God's Apostle and Abdullah went inside the house. God's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." God's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May God save him from it." Then Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshiped but God and that Muhammad is the Apostle of God." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him.  [Bukhari]




Narrated Sad bin Abi Waqqas: I have never heard the Prophet saying about anybody walking on the Earth that he is from the people of Paradise except Abdullah bin Salam. The following Verse was revealed concerning him: "And a witness from the children of Israel testifies that this Qur'an is true" (46.10)  [Bukhari]


And those who disbelieved, say: "You (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) are not a Messenger." Say: "Sufficient as a witness between me and you is God and those too who have knowledge of the Scripture (such as Abdullah bin Salam and other Jews and Christians who embraced Islam)."
(The Quran ar-Ra'd, v.43)iThose to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews ) recognise him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) as they recognise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم which are written in the Bible].
( The Quran, al-Baqara, v.146)




Safiyah, daughter of Huyayi bin Akhtab the Jew said: I was the closest child to my father and my uncle Abi Yasir’s heart. Whenever they saw me with a child of theirs, they should pamper me so tenderly to the exclusion of anyone else. However, with the advent of the Messenger of God (God's blessings & peace upon him) and settling in Quba’ with Bani ‘Amr bin ‘Awf, my father, Huyayi bin Akhtab and my uncle Abu Yasir bin Akhtab went to see him and did not return until sunset when they came back walking lazily and fully dejected. I, as usually, hurried to meet them smiling, but they would not turn to me for the grief that caught them. I heard my uncle Abu Yasir say to Ubai and Huyayi: "Is it really he (the prophet that the Jews had been awaiting)?" The former said: "It is he, I swear by God!" "Did you really recognize him?" they asked. He answered: "Yes, and my heart is burning with enmity towards him (because he is an Arab instead of a Jew)"[Ibn Hisham 1/518, 519]

falah wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 12:58pm:

Say: "Believe in it (the Qur'an) or do not believe (in it). Verily those who were given knowledge before it (the Jews  like Rabbi Abdullah bin Salam, and Christian scholars like Salman the Persian), when it is recited to them, fall down on their faces in humble prostration." (The Quran, al-Isra, v. 107) Those to whom We have given the Bible (such as Rabbi Abdullah bin Salam and other Jews who converted to Islam), rejoice at what has been revealed unto you (i.e. the Qur'an), but there are among the Confederates (from the Jews and pagans) those who reject a part thereof (from the Quran). Say: "I am commanded only to worship God (Alone) and not to join partners with Him. To Him (Alone) I call and to Him is my return." (The Quran, Ar-Ra'd, v.36) Narrated Anas: When Abdullah bin Salam (Jewish rabbi) heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: "What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" God's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." God's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and his discharge (sperm) overpowers that of his wife (egg), the child will resemble the father, and if that which is discharged by the woman (egg) overpowers the man's (sperm), the child will resemble her." On that Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of God." Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O God's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me." The Jews came to God's Apostle and Abdullah went inside the house. God's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." God's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May God save him from it." Then Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshiped but God and that Muhammad is the Apostle of God." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him.  [Bukhari] Narrated Sad bin Abi Waqqas: I have never heard the Prophet saying about anybody walking on the Earth that he is from the people of Paradise except Abdullah bin Salam. The following Verse was revealed concerning him: "And a witness from the children of Israel testifies that this Qur'an is true" (46.10)  [Bukhari] And those who disbelieved, say: "You (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) are not a Messenger." Say: "Sufficient as a witness between me and you is God and those too who have knowledge of the Scripture (such as Abdullah bin Salam and other Jews and Christians who embraced Islam)." (The Quran ar-Ra'd, v.43)iThose to whom We gave the Scripture (Jews ) recognise him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) as they recognise their sons. But verily, a party of them conceal the truth while they know it - [i.e. the qualities of Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم which are written in the Bible]. ( The Quran, al-Baqara, v.146) Safiyah, daughter of Huyayi bin Akhtab the Jew said: I was the closest child to my father and my uncle Abi Yasir’s heart. Whenever they saw me with a child of theirs, they should pamper me so tenderly to the exclusion of anyone else. However, with the advent of the Messenger of God (God's blessings & peace upon him) and settling in Quba’ with Bani ‘Amr bin ‘Awf, my father, Huyayi bin Akhtab and my uncle Abu Yasir bin Akhtab went to see him and did not return until sunset when they came back walking lazily and fully dejected. I, as usually, hurried to meet them smiling, but they would not turn to me for the grief that caught them. I heard my uncle Abu Yasir say to Ubai and Huyayi: "Is it really he (the prophet that the Jews had been awaiting)?" The former said: "It is he, I swear by God!" "Did you really recognize him?" they asked. He answered: "Yes, and my heart is burning with enmity towards him (because he is an Arab instead of a Jew)"[Ibn Hisham 1/518, 519]

Yadda, what are you doing??

falah wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 11:26am:

The way Israelis talk is ugly. It sounds like Arabic's ugly step-sister.

Actually sounds more French or German or Russian than anything remotely like Arabic. Like them, their language is completely foreign to Bilaad ush-Shaam.

Soren wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 11:48am:

There's the difference between the Jews and the Muslims, spelled out. The Muslim Golden Age went to seed, rather than serve as the seed-bed of flourishing. What happened? More Islam. A stricter Islam put an end to the Golden Age and there has been no recovery from that for 800 years.

When Western civilisation has had 800 years under its belt, then you can comment.


Soren wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 11:48am:

And now, the numpties of islam are calling for what? A new Golden Age of learning? Of course not. They are calling for stricter Islam. Abu, falah, you are agents of decline and cultural strangulation.

Fact is Muslims were stricter in Islam in the first few generations, and slowly that tapered off over the first 800 years. And surprise surprise, decline followed the loosening of adherence to Islam, every step of the way.

This is the diametric opposite of the crap you're trying to spin.

Your religion sees young girls stoned to death.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:30pm:

Your religion sees young girls stoned to death.

Like this you mean?

וְאִם אֱמֶת הָיָה הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה לֹא נִמְצְאוּ בְתוּלִים לַנַּעֲרָ
וְהוֹצִיאוּ אֶת הַנַּעֲרָ אֶל פֶּתַח בֵּית אָבִיהָ וּסְקָלוּהָ אַנְשֵׁי עִירָהּ בָּאֲבָנִים וָמֵתָה כִּי עָשְׂתָה נְבָלָה בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל לִזְנוֹת בֵּית אָבִיהָ וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִקִּרְבֶּךָ

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:55pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:30pm: Your religion sees young girls stoned to death. Like this you mean? וְאִם אֱמֶת הָיָה הַדָּבָר הַזֶּה לֹא נִמְצְאוּ בְתוּלִים לַנַּעֲרָ וְהוֹצִיאוּ אֶת הַנַּעֲרָ אֶל פֶּתַח בֵּית אָבִיהָ וּסְקָלוּהָ אַנְשֵׁי עִירָהּ בָּאֲבָנִים וָמֵתָה כִּי עָשְׂתָה נְבָלָה בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל לִזְנוֹת בֵּית אָבִיהָ וּבִעַרְתָּ הָרָע מִקִּרְבֶּךָ

Yes but in modern day Israel we do not practice this verse as you know.
But in Islamic countries this does happen.

That is the difference.

Struth! you religious people!
Stop making me laugh! I can't take it anymore! ;D

Islam has never saved the Jews.

But I will show honesty that you make us laugh.

Every time you think a rock or stone will stop a tank, it is very funny.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 8:30pm:

Your religion sees young girls stoned to death.

Organ stealers:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TmED4DTHvIY/TJg42ziiOWI/AAAAAAAATdo/-ZS93EE1yqk/s1600/bustedrabs.jpg

Stupid?
Crazy?

Or both?

---

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:14pm:

Stupid? Crazy? Or both?

Brave,

That picture reminds me of David (pbuh) and Goliath.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:01pm:

Yes but in modern day Israel we do not practice this verse as you know. But in Islamic countries this does happen. That is the difference.

Strange how when you wanna justify why you steal the homes of Palestinians, you can't stop quoting your book, yet now you can't distance yourself far enough from it...

Woe to the hypocrites.

Fallah, you point to Spain in many post's as the epiphany of cordial relations between Muslims, Jew's & Christians.

Could you please confirm that after the slaughter of Jews in 1066  their clothes had to carry a mark so that others may tell at a glance who they were. Was a similar method of identification used later in Nazi Germany. Do you advocate that this form of racism be used today?

Should we brand people on their forehead with J or an M maybe even a C ? I for instance would be a A.

What do you think Fallah should we be as racist as the muslim scum of 1066?

If it were so bad for them in al-Andalus, why did they keep fleeing other parts of Europe just to get there?

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 11:25pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:01pm: Yes but in modern day Israel we do not practice this verse as you know. But in Islamic countries this does happen. That is the difference. Strange how when you wanna justify why you steal the homes of Palestinians, you can't stop quoting your book, yet now you can't distance yourself far enough from it... Woe to the hypocrites.

;D

From the king of deflection. I am hoping that your inability to answer simple questions about Islam arises from the shame you feel about it.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 7^th, 2012 at 12:45am:

If it were so bad for them in al-Andalus, why did they keep fleeing other parts of Europe just to get there?

Maimonides's family fled Spain along with many Jews to escape the muslim tyranny and forced conversions. The Jews of that time had to mark their clothing. Maimonides said of that period "Never have the Jews been so persecuted". He  pretended to covert so he could flee and went to live in Egypt. The Egyption muslims declared his forced conversion illegal and overturned it.

Check it out you might have a more balanced view on history.

falah wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:11pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 8:30pm: Your religion sees young girls stoned to death. Organ stealers: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_TmED4DTHvIY/TJg42ziiOWI/AAAAAAAATdo/-ZS93EE1yqk/s1600/bustedrabs.jpg

Actually it's organ SELLERS....and it was only one of the 44 people arrested on charges of political corruption and international money laundering....

Quote:

and it was only one of the 44 people arrested

Ah, but this one was a Jew, which proves how Islam saved the Jews, by singling them out for special protection.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 9:14pm:

[photo of rock thrower] Stupid? Crazy? Or both?

Avram Horowitz,

The 'Pals' are crazy, >> like a fox <<.







It should be noted that Hamas has RPG's [ROCKET-PROPELLED GRENADES].

But Hamas won't use RPG's, against Israeli solders, OR TANKS.

Because the 'Pals' know that the Israeli Army rules of engagement DO NOT ALLOW ISRAELI SOLDIERS TO SHOOT ROCK THROWERS.

So, the 'Pals' throw rocks at tanks.

Which makes good copy, for the international mainstream media.
i.e.
As Abu suggested; 'David against a Goliath'.






The 'Pals' use their RPG's against people who have not power to fight back....


Quote:

Dec. 2, 2006 Gaza women warned of immodesty A....group calling itself the Just Swords of Islam issued a warning to Palestinian women in the Gaza Strip over the weekend that they must wear the hijab or face being targeted by the group's members. .....The group said its followers last week threw acid at the face of a young woman who was dressed "immodestly" in the center of Gaza City. .....the group also claimed responsibility for attacks on 12 Internet cafes over the past few days. ....."We will have no mercy on any woman who violates the traditions of Islam and who also hang out in Internet cafes." ACCORDING TO THE GROUP, ITS MEMBERS USED ROCKET-PROPELLED GRENADES to attack 12 Internet cafes and a number of music shops in different parts of the Gaza Strip. It said the places were targeted because they were "distracting an entire generation of Palestinians from their duty to worship [Alla] and jihad....

http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=43365



The 'Pals' will destroy Internet cafes [with RPG's].  [because the IC's offer access to independent, non-ISLAMIC, information].
They will throw acid in the faces of women. [to 'righteously' terrorise those who resist 'Allah's will'    /sarc off]

....AND, the 'Pals' will throw rocks at Israeli tanks.



2 Q's.
1/....why don't the Palestinian 'freedom fighters' use their RPG's against the Israeli tanks???
2/....and do Palestinian 'freedom fighters' feel any fear, when throwing acid in the faces of young defenceless women?     [  <--- i'm sure Palestinian 'freedom fighters' are shaking in their boots, as they throw acid in faces of lone women.        /sarc off]



http://radioislam.org/islam/english/zionism/palestinian_boy1.jpg

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 6^th, 2012 at 11:23pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 6th, 2012 at 9:14pm: Stupid? Crazy? Or both? Brave, That picture reminds me of David (pbuh) and Goliath.

What are there Abu, 1.5 BILLION MOSLEMS WORLDWIDE ?

Against 6 million Jews in Israel [and probably another 6 million Jews, in the rest of world].


Yes Abu,

It certainly is a David and Goliath like contest.





And just remember Abu, it is David that will win.

Coz his God is with him.




Isaiah 41:8
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
9  Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
10  Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.
11  Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12  Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.
13  For I the LORD thy God will hold thy right hand, saying unto thee, Fear not; I will help thee.
14  Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.


Isaiah 43:1-7


Isaiah 44:1-8


Isaiah 54:4
Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
5  For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
6  For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7  For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
8  In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

How many Jews did Muhammed personally kill in his lifetime?

How many Jews did he oversee the killing of?

freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 5:56pm:

How many Jews did Muhammed personally kill in his lifetime? How many Jews did he oversee the killing of?

How many Confederate Americans did Abraham Lincoln oversee the killing of?

How many Nazis did Winston Churchill oversee the killing of?

Numbers of enemies killed does not really prove anything.

The numbers of Jewish enemies killed was relatively small compared to the total Jewish population of the Islamic state.

The number of Jewish warriors killed was probably less than 1% of the Jewish population of the Islamic state.

Why can't you answer the question?

Is it true he killed 500 in Medina alone?

freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 8:58pm:

Why can't you answer the question? Is it true he killed 500 in Medina alone?

The Jewish population in the Islamic state was probably around 100,000.

Killing only 500 enemy Jewish warriors who had fought against the Islamic state demonstrates that Jews were treated well as long as they did not fight against the state.

falah wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 8:58pm: Why can't you answer the question? Is it true he killed 500 in Medina alone? The Jewish population in the Islamic state was probably around 100,000. Killing only 500 enemy Jewish warriors who had fought against the Islamic state demonstrates that Jews were treated well as long as they did not fight against the state.

SO killing the Moonee Ponds jihadis - Bebrinka and Co - would be OK, Islamically speaking? They are fighting against the state.

Killing every single Muslim who fights against the state in the west is to be killed - as a way of of accommodating Islam, of course.


Everyone, ululate! The scholar has given us all a clear sign!!

(You stupid bloody jihadi idiot)

falah wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 8:58pm: Why can't you answer the question? Is it true he killed 500 in Medina alone? The Jewish population in the Islamic state was probably around 100,000. Killing only 500 enemy Jewish warriors who had fought against the Islamic state demonstrates that Jews were treated well as long as they did not fight against the state.

I was talking about Medina alone. Isn't this the place where Muhammed had a peace treaty that he reneged on, as collective punishment for what was clearly a crime rather than an act of war?

You previously attempted to explain it away by saying the entire tribe was only about 100 people. Now you have done another mental backflip and are instead talking about how many Jews there were. You can't have it both ways Falah.

Is it true or not?

Soren wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 9:20pm:

SO killing the Moonee Ponds jihadis - Bebrinka and Co - would be OK, Islamically speaking? They are fighting against the state. Killing every single Muslim who fights against the state in the west is to be killed - as a way of of accommodating Islam, of course. Everyone, ululate! The scholar has given us all a clear sign!! (You stupid bloody jihadi idiot)

When a confederation of armies invade Australia, and Muslim Australians assist them in that invasion, then you will be able to say you are doing the same.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 11:03pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:20pm: SO killing the Moonee Ponds jihadis - Bebrinka and Co - would be OK, Islamically speaking? They are fighting against the state. Killing every single Muslim who fights against the state in the west is to be killed - as a way of of accommodating Islam, of course. Everyone, ululate! The scholar has given us all a clear sign!! (You stupid bloody jihadi idiot) When a confederation of armies invade Australia, and Muslim Australians assist them in that invasion, then you will be able to say you are doing the same.

falah wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 9:10pm:

Killing only 5000 enemy Muslim warriors who have fought against the Australian state on Australian soil  demonstrates that Muslims are treated well as long as they do not fight against the state again.

Soren wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 11:31pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 11:03pm: Soren wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:20pm: SO killing the Moonee Ponds jihadis - Bebrinka and Co - would be OK, Islamically speaking? They are fighting against the state. Killing every single Muslim who fights against the state in the west is to be killed - as a way of of accommodating Islam, of course. Everyone, ululate! The scholar has given us all a clear sign!! (You stupid bloody jihadi idiot) When a confederation of armies invade Australia, and Muslim Australians assist them in that invasion, then you will be able to say you are doing the same. falah wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:10pm: Killing only 5000 enemy Muslim warriors who have fought against the Australian state on Australian soil  demonstrates that Muslims are treated well as long as they do not fight against the state again.

^ What the heck? You Islam-haters are now making up fake posts and attributing them to me. How pathetic can you get?

freediver wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 9:25pm:

I was talking about Medina alone. Isn't this the place where Muhammed had a peace treaty that he reneged on, as collective punishment for what was clearly a crime rather than an act of war?

It was the Jews that broke peace treaties and attacked the islamic state.

Soren wrote on Jun 8^th, 2012 at 9:20pm:

falah wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:10pm: freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 8:58pm: Why can't you answer the question? Is it true he killed 500 in Medina alone? The Jewish population in the Islamic state was probably around 100,000. Killing only 500 enemy Jewish warriors who had fought against the Islamic state demonstrates that Jews were treated well as long as they did not fight against the state. SO killing the Moonee Ponds jihadis - Bebrinka and Co - would be OK, Islamically speaking? They are fighting against the state.

Can you provide any proof that they were fighting against the state.

Even the judge when sentencing admitted that the group had no actual target.

They were simply discussing religious rulings  (of which none of them was qualified to give) on hypothetical situations.

The only evidence in the trial was a schizophrenic liar's testimony. The star witness in the trial spoke to imaginary characters, was a diagnosed schizophrenic, and had been proven in the past to be a liar.

falah wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:13am:

Soren wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:20pm: falah wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:10pm: freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 8:58pm: Why can't you answer the question? Is it true he killed 500 in Medina alone? The Jewish population in the Islamic state was probably around 100,000. Killing only 500 enemy Jewish warriors who had fought against the Islamic state demonstrates that Jews were treated well as long as they did not fight against the state. SO killing the Moonee Ponds jihadis - Bebrinka and Co - would be OK, Islamically speaking? They are fighting against the state. Can you provide any proof that they were fighting against the state.

They are in jail for fighting the state. Or does Australian law not count?



Quote:

Even the judge when sentencing admitted that the group had no actual target.

He admitted, did he?
Even the judge admitted?

;D

You are an Arab, aren't you??


Quote:

They were simply discussing religious rulings  (of which none of them was qualified to give) on hypothetical situations.

Well, let that be a lesson you you, bearded jihadi. Simply discussing religious rulings can land you in jail.
[quote]


[mod: please refrain from your blasphemous lies]

Soren wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:30am:

falah wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 12:13am: They were simply discussing religious rulings  (of which none of them was qualified to give) on hypothetical situations. Well, let that be a lesson you you, bearded jihadi. Simply discussing religious rulings can land you in jail.

No. Having an overzealous secret police,  and a jury made up of morons can land you in jail.

People like you are stupidly happy to live in a fascist state - until the state destroys itself like Nazi Germany did. Then you will probably try to run off to Argentina trying to avoid your war crimes trial.

falah wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:47am:

Soren wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 12:30am: falah wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 12:13am: They were simply discussing religious rulings  (of which none of them was qualified to give) on hypothetical situations. Well, let that be a lesson you you, bearded jihadi. Simply discussing religious rulings can land you in jail. People like you are stupidly happy to live in a fascist state

.

;D
Where do you live, bearded jihadi?

(thank god you are Arabs)

falah wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:05am:

freediver wrote on Jun 8th, 2012 at 9:25pm: I was talking about Medina alone. Isn't this the place where Muhammed had a peace treaty that he reneged on, as collective punishment for what was clearly a crime rather than an act of war? It was the Jews that broke peace treaties and attacked the islamic state.

By molesting a woman and murdering a man?

Is it true that Muhammed murdered 500 Jewish men in response, and that you tried to pass this off as a merciful act because it averted a war with those 500 men?

Is this what you mean by 'saving' the Jews?

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 9:19am:

By molesting a woman and murdering a man? Is it true that Muhammed murdered 500 Jewish men in response, and that you tried to pass this off as a merciful act because it averted a war with those 500 men? Is this what you mean by 'saving' the Jews?

You probably need to specify which event you're speaking about freediver, because it doesn't sound like you really understand what you're talking about. You seem to be mixing up all sorts of events.

That is why I am asking Abu. The typical non-Answers from you and Falah are not exactly shedding any light on it.

Is it true that Muhammed killed 500 Jews in Medina alone? Was there more than one massacre of Jews in this town? You would think they would run out pretty quickly at that rate.

Were these Jews 'saved'?

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

Is it true that Muhammed killed 500 Jews in Medina alone? Was there more than one massacre of Jews in this town? You would think they would run out pretty quickly at that rate.

I don't think he killed any Jews.

A tribe of Jews were found guilty of treason (with their own representative, Sa'd Bin Mu'adh as judge) though and executed, after they assisted an invading confederacy of Jewish & Pagan Arab armies to invade Madinah.


freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:12pm:

Were these Jews 'saved'?

If it's the ones above, no, they were treasonous criminals, who were found guilty by a court of law and were sentenced accordingly. Why would they be saved?

Your question is the most illogical bunch of nonsense I've ever come across. Nowhere did anyone state Muslims preserved the life of every single Jew ever to come across their path. Of course criminals were executed under Islamic law, be they Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims or Buddhists.

Honestly fd discussing with you is quite tiresome, I feel like I am amusing a toddler.

But you want to see my country erased from the map and for us to "go back to Europe".....

Quote:

A tribe of Jews were found guilty of treason though and executed, after they assisted an invading confederacy of Jewish & Pagan Arab armies to invade Madinah

Ah, so there was more than one massacre of Jews in Medina alone? You will have to forgive my ignorance Abu. I was not aware Muhammed made such a habit of it.

Can you explain why the Jews would help invaders if the Muslims were saving them? Perhaps they misunderstood the whole jew tax and second class citizen thing.


Quote:

If it's the ones above, no, they were treasonous criminals, who were found guilty by a court of law and were sentenced accordingly. Why would they be saved?

Because Islam saves Jews?


Quote:

Your question is the most illogical bunch of nonsense I've ever come across. Nowhere did anyone state Muslims preserved the life of every single Jew ever to come across their path.

The first sentence in Falah's opening post:


Quote:

Islam saved Jewry.

Islam sounds pretty hostile to me. Can you explain how your own views about what should be done with Israeli Jews fits into this?


Quote:

Of course criminals were executed under Islamic law, be they Jews, Zoroastrians, Muslims or Buddhists.

The entire tribe of them? On several occasions? Tell me Abu, how many Jews do you think can participate in the molestation of a woman and the murder of a man?

Can you give any examples where Muhammed slaughtered entire tribes of Muslims in response to individual crimes?

The 99% of the Jews who lived in Arabia were not killed.

The 1% were those warriors who had broken a peace treaty and fought against the Islamic state violating the terms of a peace treaty and aiding enemies of the state in violation of treaty obligations.

So the Jews that Muhammed killed in response to the murder and molestation case - they were all warriors?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 12:54pm:

But you want to see my country erased from the map and for us to "go back to Europe".....

You have no country, you're just a squatter littering someone elses home. Of course I want to see you out of their homes, leaving them  peacefully to go about their lives. If that involves you going back to wherever your grandparents left from, so be it.

For all the decent human beings who happen to live under the Zionist occupation (like those who reject the occupation and accept the dismantling of your outpost), then they should be free to stay.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 4:48pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 12:54pm: But you want to see my country erased from the map and for us to "go back to Europe"..... You have no country, you're just a squatter littering someone elses home. Of course I want to see you out of their homes, leaving them  peacefully to go about their lives. If that involves you going back to wherever your grandparents left from, so be it. For all the decent human beings who happen to live under the Zionist occupation (like those who reject the occupation and accept the dismantling of your outpost), then they should be free to stay.

No, no, no, no.

You will never ever drive me and everyone else from our home.

I am Israeli. I am born in Israel, I am a citizen of Israel.

If you think we will be moved then I am afraid you do not understand.

We offer the hand of friendship to our neighbors.

They can accept or they can have war. But understand we are more powerful than they and we will smash them into the ground.

It is their choice.

I am not European. I am Israeli.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 4:48pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 12:54pm: But you want to see my country erased from the map and for us to "go back to Europe"..... You have no country, you're just a squatter littering someone elses home. Of course I want to see you out of their homes, leaving them  peacefully to go about their lives. If that involves you going back to wherever your grandparents left from, so be it. For all the decent human beings who happen to live under the Zionist occupation (like those who reject the occupation and accept the dismantling of your outpost), then they should be free to stay.

Abu, are you referring to the entire nation of Israel?

When Muslims Saved Jews

Issue 64 January 2010

It is written in the Qur’an, “Whoever saves one life, saves the entire world.” It is written in the Talmud, “If you save one life, it is as if you have saved the world.” And there was a time not so long ago when, once again – the Spanish 
Inquisition being another – Muslims came to the aid of Jews during their 
darkest hour. Somaiya Khan-Piachaud recounts this incredible story.


(This feature was first published in emel for issue 64 - January 2010)


January marks the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. January also marks the Holocaust Memorial Day. The horrors of the Holocaust stole the lives of millions of innocent people. The historian Robert Satloff has written that, “the Germans employed the most scientifically advanced means of the day in the most culturally advanced society in the world to kill the greatest number of people as quickly and efficiently as possible.” Yet there were notable exceptions – the German Schindler being one. Less notable were the Muslims in Europe and North Africa that saved the lives of Jews in the Second World War.

Agim Sinani’s parents hid a Jewish family in their home. They sheltered Fritz and Katherine, and their daughter Gertrude during a time of intense conflict. When German patrols came too close to their hideout, Agim’s parents would move the family back and forth between various houses. Miraculously, the 
family survived the Nazi occupation and came to England, after which all contact was lost.

During that time of systematic persecution, it is nearly impossible to accept that there was one country in Europe that saw its Jewish population grow. But that is exactly what happened in Albania and Kosovo - Jews were safe there. Muslims ignored the grave risks to themselves and sheltered not only their Jewish neighbours, but also thousands of Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi terror. “During the Nazi occupation of Albania,” states Johanna Neumann of the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, “there is not one confirmed instance of a Jew being handed over to the Nazis by a Muslim Albanian.” By contrast, in Macedonia, just 170 miles from the Albanian capital, the oldest Jewish community in mainland Europe was exterminated.[what religion are those Albanians? Oh yeah Christian!]

The Albanian government actively defied Nazi rule. In 1938 King Zog, the first and only Muslim King of Europe, issued four hundred passports to refugee Jews, granting them safe entry into Albania. After learning of the Nazi campaign elsewhere in Europe, the Mayor of Tirane issued documents to Jewish families, protecting them by stating they were Muslims. When the Germans occupied Albania and demanded lists of Jews from the authorities, the Albanians answered, “We don’t know any Jews, we only know Albanians.” Everybody knew, but nobody told.

The Albanians’ resistance is a hidden period in history, emerging now only after the fall of an isolationist communist regime. American photographer Norman H. Gershman has been exploring that tale. He is a long-time supporter of Yad Vashem (the Jerusalem-based Holocaust memorial), an organisation that has honoured more than 22,000 non-Jewish Holocaust-era rescuers. Gershman became fascinated by the little-known fact that Muslims had saved Jews, and decided to document their stories.

"...I do not understand what I read in the papers at all, about how every Muslim is a terrorist. I mean, how many terrorists are there in the world? Compare this to 1.2 billion Muslims. I have always wanted to focus on the goodness of people. Who are these Muslims saving Jews; whoever heard of them? That started my journey.”

...Stanford Shaw, professor of Turkish History at UCLA, has written about the thousands of Jews saved by the Turkish government. “Turkish diplomats in France spent a good deal of time organizing ‘train caravans’ to take Turkish Jews back to Turkey... In addition to providing material assistance to Turkish Jews persecuted in France and other countries occupied by the Nazis in Western Europe, Turkey also helped East European Jews persecuted in countries such as Greece, Lithuania, Romania, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. Right from the start of the war, the Turkish government permitted the Jewish Agency to maintain rescue offices at hotels in Istanbul.”

Gershman’s project began as an individual quest. He first travelled to Albania in 2002 to photograph and document the stories of those who were ‘righteous’ in the face of despotism. Over a five-year period he sought out, photographed, and collected individual stories, which he then published in a photo book titled ‘Besa: Muslims Who Saved Jews in World War II’.

“These were simple people, who never thought of themselves as being heroes. They risked everything,” Gershman says. “It’s a wonderful story. I am delighted to be able to bring light on the deeds they did. Whenever possible I have sought out the people who sheltered the Jews. Many have since died, and in those cases I have photographed their spouses or their children. My portraits reflect their religious and moral convictions, and their courage.”

Upon his return from Albania, Gershman contacted producer Jason Williams...They set about creating a documentary entitled God’s House – a behind-the-scenes look at Gershman’s painstaking search for Albanians who rescued Jews...

Apart from exploring the individual acts of courage, the film documents and defines Besa (meaning obligation), an ancient tradition specific to Albania. The documentary is full of stories of fathers and sons, of the duties and obligations passed from one generation to the next. “One of the main strands of the film,” Williams explains, “focuses on a Muslim son, Rexhep Hoxha, who is determined to fulfil the Besa agreed to by his father; he is equally determined not to hand on that obligation to his own son.” The film also tells the story of a Jewish son who was brought to Albania and “saved by this surrogate Muslim father…These stories of fathers and sons are very tightly interwoven,” Williams adds.

The tradition of Besa still compels modern-day Albanians to fulfil past promises. God’s House follows Rexhep Hoxha, an Albanian toyshop owner who has an interesting family heirloom - a set of beautifully bound books written in Hebrew, entrusted to his father by a Jewish family headed by Nissim Aladjem. Nissim had promised to return for these treasured possessions, but for 66 years the Hoxha family waited hoping that one day the Aladjems would reclaim it. With no sign of the Aladjems, Rexhep promised his father that he would return the books. A generation after the Hoxhas sheltered Nissim, Sara and their 10-year-old son Aron, Rexhep journeys to Jerusalem in search of Aron.

Although the film uncovers the past, one cannot help but feel that it may have important present-day consequences as well. Williams is hopeful the film, which will premier this year, will provide a basis for dialogue, “Here is an instance where we have fully documented a Muslim community which recognised the coming of the Holocaust, responded to the Holocaust, and worked to give refuge to Jews..."

http://www.emel.com/images/muslims_saved_jews1.jpg
Rexhep Rifat Hoxha, with Hebrew books left behind by a Jewish family his father sheltered. The documentary God’s House explores his determination to fulfil the Besa (obligation) agreed to by his father in returning the books to their rightful owner. 

Even at the age of 77, Gershman says that his work documenting those who helped save Jewish lives is not complete. “How are we ever going to find these people decades down the line? Contact has been lost between rescuers and refugees. There is so much sadness. Many Jews do not want to remember. If I find, or someone tells me, about a family who saved a Jew, I will seek them out and take their portrait....”

For his book Satloff spoke to Jews who had escaped persecution. He recounts the story of Yehuda Chachmon, a Libyan Jew interned in an Italian camp in Giado. “The Arab camp guards opted out of the sadistic torture inflicted on Jews and other prisoners by the Italians. Of the 2,600 Jews in the Giado camp 562 died in less than a year. The Italian guards treated the Jews with brutality; the attitude of the Arab guards under the Italians was excellent. They even found secret ways to ease our discomfort.”

http://www.emel.com/article?id=67&a_id=1788

cont'd

Satloff tells a similar story in Tunisia. There, the wartime rulers Ahmed Pasha Bey and his cousin Moncef Bey offered vital public support for Jews facing Vichy persecution. “They regularly warned Jewish leaders of German plans, helped Jews avoid arrest orders, intervened to prevent deportations, and even hid Jews so they could evade the Germans. Moncef Bey is remembered fondly by Tunisian Jews. “He gave the Jews equal treatment,” declared Shlomo Barad. “He did not allow them to be discriminated.” 

...Men like Ali Sakkat, who opened his farm to sixty Jewish escapees from a labour camp and hid them until liberation by the Allies; Khaled Abdelwahhab who scooped up several families in the middle of the night and took them to his countryside estate to protect them...As Satloff writes in his book, “this is the most hopeful story I have ever told. Recapturing these lost stories from the Holocaust’s long reach into Arab lands offers people of good will among each community — Arab and Jewish — a way to look through the lens of one of the most powerful narratives in history and see each other differently. It is the most positive response I could offer to the events of that Tuesday morning in September.”

http://www.emel.com/images/muslims_saved_jews3.jpg
Agim Sinani, holding a photograph of his father. His family sheltered a Jewish family of three during the war. Above right, scenes from the documentary God’s House following the photographer’s journey.


http://www.emel.com/article?id=67&a_id=1788

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:05pm:

If you think we will be moved then I am afraid you do not understand.

It is you who does not understand. You cannot survive amongst a sea of Arabs & an even bigger ocean of Muslims beyond that. You will never ever be accepted in Palestine, you will live constantly looking over your shoulder, knowing full well you are in someone elses home and that person, or his supporters wants to take his home back.

If you're happy to live like that temporarily, so be it, but I personally think you'd be much happier back home in Czech republic or Russia, where you belong, and where your heritage is.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:05pm:

We offer the hand of friendship to our neighbors.

No you don't. You offer expulsion and refugee status to the people whose entire country you are occupying. You have no neighbours, only victims of your imposition. You are nothing but an unwanted annoyance in someone elses land.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:05pm:

They can accept or they can have war.

War... or life as a refugee, yes I think it's quite obvious which one they'll choose.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:05pm:

I am not European. I am Israeli.

You are European, and you know it khabeeby.

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 5:50pm:

Abu, are you referring to the entire nation of Israel?

There is no such nation.

I am referring to the Zionist outpost that is currently polluting all of Palestine.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 9:11pm:

If you're happy to live like that temporarily, so be it, but I personally think you'd be much happier back home in Czech republic or Russia, where you belong, and where your heritage is.

When you converted to Islam you have switched to the Arab heritage. You should get the hell outa here and return to the place of your heritage - the 'Muslim lands'.  And don't give is the usual weaselly BS about how your ancestors came from Germany and how you are an Australian born ZZ Top numpty. With your heritage in Araby, you should get packing and fook off to where your adopted heritage is.

This is no different to what you are saying to the Jews of Israel, except perhaps for the peppery language. So cut the Islamist double standards and hypocrisy. Fook off or shut up. .


Can I say this? Is this Islamophobic?

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 9:12pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 5:50pm: Abu, are you referring to the entire nation of Israel? There is no such nation. I am referring to the Zionist outpost that is currently polluting all of Palestine.

So the nation of Israel is a figment of our collective imagination?

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 9:12pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 5:50pm: Abu, are you referring to the entire nation of Israel? There is no such nation. I am referring to the Zionist outpost that is currently polluting all of Palestine.

SO what about the various mosques and Muslim ghettos dotting the Western world - what about that pollution? You gonna clear out?

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 9:11pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 5:05pm: I am not European. I am Israeli. You are European, and you know it khabeeby.

Well, you are no Australian, you are an alien. And you know it, jihadi.

.

Soren wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 9:52pm:

When you converted to Islam you have switched to the Arab heritage. You should get the hell outa here and return to the place of your heritage - the 'Muslim lands'.  And don't give is the usual weaselly BS about how your ancestors came from Germany and how you are an Australian born ZZ Top numpty. With your heritage in Araby, you should get packing and fook off to where your adopted heritage is. This is no different to what you are saying to the Jews of Israel, except perhaps for the peppery language. So cut the Islamist double standards and hypocrisy. Fook off or shut up. . Can I say this? Is this Islamophobic?

As I've pointed out enough times, when Muslims are blowing up hotels, assassinating politicians, mass illegally immigrating until they make up 1/3 of the population, raiding country towns and murdering half their population and expelling everyone to surrounding nations, and you find yourself rotting away in a refugee camp in Auckland, then perhaps you can make this parallel, until then, you're just speaking garbage.

If that all occurred to you, then feel free to write me a complaint from your refugee camp, and I'll concede you are vindicated in your comparison.

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 10:08pm:

So the nation of Israel is a figment of our collective imagination?

It is not a nation, it is a military installation, erected on someone elses nation. It exists only as a matter of force upon those people. It is not recognised by any of the other nations in the region, except those which had governments specifically put in place for the purpose of recognising it (ie. Jordan & Egypt). As those governments are toppled and the will of the people returns, so too will the resumption of the physical rejection of this installation.

Quote:

mass illegally immigrating

Abu you keep making this claim, then running away whenever you are asked to back it up.


Quote:

It is not a nation, it is a military installation, erected on someone elses nation.

How is this different from every other nation on earth, other than it being controlled by Jews in an area you believe to be 'owned' by Islam?


Quote:

It is not recognised by any of the other nations in the region

You mean the ones who went to war against Israel and kept losing? Funny how you focus one the ones you dismiss as western puppets when talking about this humiliating loss, but their stance suddenly matters in this context.


Quote:

so too will the resumption of the physical rejection of this installation

You mean another war, only this time the Muslims will have their glorious victory over the Jews?

freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 11:47am:

Quote: mass illegally immigrating Abu you keep making this claim, then running away whenever you are asked to back it up.

I've provided plenty of links, my guess is you haven't read a single one.


freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 11:47am:

Quote: It is not a nation, it is a military installation, erected on someone elses nation. How is this different from every other nation on earth, other than it being controlled by Jews in an area you believe to be 'owned' by Islam?

Does every nation on earth have an entire nation of people exiled in refugee camps in every direction around them? Please at least study the facts of the situation before you speak. You are clearly speaking out of turn.


freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 11:47am:

Quote: It is not recognised by any of the other nations in the region You mean the ones who went to war against Israel and kept losing? Funny how you focus one the ones you dismiss as western puppets when talking about this humiliating loss, but their stance suddenly matters in this context.

The point is the only nations ever to recognise it, were those who were established for the purpose of recognising it. No nation around it recognises it out of its own free will, because they all reject it as a foreign imposition. You can try and spin it however you like, these are the facts on the ground.


freediver wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 11:47am:

Quote: so too will the resumption of the physical rejection of this installation You mean another war, only this time the Muslims will have their glorious victory over the Jews?

Something like that. More than likely though I think they'll just flee back to their homelands, and no war will be necessary.

Why did Jordan keep 1m Palestinians in refugee camp and not allow them into the country as normal citizens?

For same reason that before Israel captures Gaza and the West Bank that the territory is ruled by Egypt and Jordan and the Palestinians STILL do not own the land.

The Arabs (being typical Arabs) play games and think of themselves.

Please the Jordanians do not care any more about the Palestinians than we do.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 11:14am:

freediver wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 10:08pm: So the nation of Israel is a figment of our collective imagination? It is not a nation,.

Incorrect. It is a nation state, recognized but most of the world and is a UN member.

---

Freeliar, Israel has not won a war in nearly 40 years. Those wars were against communists and nationalists.

Since 1985, Israel has lost about 5 million km² to Hizbullah and Hamasand other Muslim groups.

Once an Islamic government is established in Egypt and Syria we will see what happens to the Zionist land robbers.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 11:10am:

Soren wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 9:52pm: When you converted to Islam you have switched to the Arab heritage. You should get the hell outa here and return to the place of your heritage - the 'Muslim lands'.  And don't give is the usual weaselly BS about how your ancestors came from Germany and how you are an Australian born ZZ Top numpty. With your heritage in Araby, you should get packing and fook off to where your adopted heritage is. This is no different to what you are saying to the Jews of Israel, except perhaps for the peppery language. So cut the Islamist double standards and hypocrisy. Fook off or shut up. . Can I say this? Is this Islamophobic? As I've pointed out enough times, when Muslims are blowing up hotels, assassinating politicians, mass illegally immigrating until they make up 1/3 of the population, raiding country towns and murdering half their population and expelling everyone to surrounding nations, and you find yourself rotting away in a refugee camp in Auckland, then perhaps you can make this parallel, until then, you're just speaking garbage. If that all occurred to you, then feel free to write me a complaint from your refugee camp, and I'll concede you are vindicated in your comparison.

Why are the Arabs in refugee camps in Arab countries? By aren't they accepted by their Arab 'brothers and sisters'?

Sudetan Germans, Roumanian Germans, Baltic Germans are not treated as refugees in Germany. North African French were not refugees in France when they were expelled from Algeria, Egypt, etc. Indian born Brits were not refugees after Indian independence. South AFrican, Rhodesian Brits are not refugees in England.
New Zealanders and Australians can move back and forth freely - their kinship is recognised even as they are two separate nd sovereign countries.

ETC, ETC, ETC.

Why are 'Palestinian' still refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt?[/b] They can get citizenship in Australia faster than in an Arab country. Why is that?

Because you bearded monsters are speaking out of both corners of your mouths, as always. There can be no reasonable discussion with an Arab - or one who has taken on the Arab heritage like you - because all you can do is haggle and double-speak.

When you want to slag off the west, you whine about the caliphate and that BS, how wonderful the Muslim unity of serving Allah is and that whiny nonsense..
But when it comes to the mistreatment of the Palestinians by the Arabs, then you will hide behind the nation state. Then the Muslim unity can go to hell, Then it's all whining about different counties.

You guys could not even ask an honest question, let alone answer anything honestly. You think honesty is a weakness. That's the heritage you have signed up to.

falah wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 12:50pm:

Freeliar, Israel has not won a war in nearly 40 years. Those wars were against communists and nationalists. Since 1985, Israel has lost about 5 million km2 to Hizbullah and Hamasand other Muslim groups. Once an Islamic government is established in Egypt and Syria we will see what happens to the Zionist land robbers.

Egypt is on the verge of bankruptcy.

You are dreaming of some glorious Muslim jihadi army. Dream on. Sending millions into certain death may be good for the 72 virgins wheeze but it does not win wars. You can't fight a war against a modern army like Israel in sandals.

Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims.

By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then.

why do you live in a white person's country and you accuse us of living somewhere we do not belong?

Hypocrisy?

As I already stated, I am a white person.

And even if I were not, I certainly didn't push anyone into a refugee camp, or make their life hell with roadblocks, or blow them up with bombs as you do to the Palestinians.

Then you are very confused.

No... you are confused.

You are a European, who has invaded someone's home in the Middle East.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:47pm:

As I already stated, I am a white person. And even if I were not, I certainly didn't push anyone into a refugee camp, or make their life hell with roadblocks, or blow them up with bombs as you do to the Palestinians.

1) The refugee camps are run by Jordan

2) The roadblocks are in Israel. If they do not want to come into Israel then they do not need the roadblocks.

3) We retaliate. Tell me - why do they fire rockets into Ashdod when we are not in Gaza.
No rocket fire, no retaliation.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:49pm:

No... you are confused. You are a European, who has invaded someone's home in the Middle East.

No. I am Israeli. From a people who belong in the Holy Land and were there before any body else.

Should Aussies give the land to Aborigines?
Should Americans give the land to Indians?

We were there first. We suffer holocaust of millions of deaths, My grandparents from Prague is put into camp by the Nazis so they leave after war and is invited by Ben Gurion home.

Quote:

I've provided plenty of links, my guess is you haven't read a single one.

Going by your inability to make a rational argument for why it was illegal for Jews to migrate to Israel, they don't seem to have much to offer. Posting a link is a good way to back up your argument, but is no substitute for demonstrating your ability to think for yourself.


Quote:

Does every nation on earth have an entire nation of people exiled in refugee camps in every direction around them?

You are right, it is unusual for a nation to survive an attack from every neighbouring nation and consistent ongoing attacks from people who will only accept death or the destruction of the nation. Can you explain why those nations tried to hard to destroy Israel, yet not a single one wants Palestine or the Palestinian people?


Quote:

The point is the only nations ever to recognise it, were those who were established for the purpose of recognising it.

Wow. This conspiracy certainly goes back a long way. Who'd have though all those nations would be created so far in advance merely to acknowledge the existence of something that did not yet exist at the time? Did you get this theory from the protocols?


Quote:

No nation around it recognises it out of its own free will

That's what losing a war feels like. It is hard to deny the existence of a nation you foolishly attacked and lost to.


Quote:

Something like that. More than likely though I think they'll just flee back to their homelands, and no war will be necessary.

;D

What homeland?

Falah:


Quote:

Since 1985, Israel has lost about 5 million km2 to Hizbullah and Hamasand other Muslim groups.

So why do you and all the others complain so bitterly about Israel continuing to take more land? Are these just more lies from the Muslim propaganda machine? Are you trying to play the victim card and the glorious victor card at the same time?

Palestinians are liars.

I know this from personal experience.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:51pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:49pm: No... you are confused. You are a European, who has invaded someone's home in the Middle East. No. I am Israeli. From a people who belong in the Holy Land and were there before any body else. Should Aussies give the land to Aborigines? Should Americans give the land to Indians? We were there first. We suffer holocaust of millions of deaths, My grandparents from Prague is put into camp by the Nazis so they leave after war and is invited by Ben Gurion home.

Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 10:59am:

Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians.

Don't count on Avraham actually realising he just made the case against himself.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10^th, 2012 at 2:02pm:

Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then.

Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us.
I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there. 
Over here you are nothing but trouble.

Soren wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:28pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble.

Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion?

SOB

We both know this isn't the case.

We both know full well that the reason the West & Muslims are coming into conflict are to do with the West's insatiable greed for what is buried under the Muslim lands. Muslims are not safe to simply keep to themselves in their lands, because the West's armies are crawling all over them, devising new ways to control and harvest them every breathing moment they get.

Also we both know the West is scared of how powerful a belief system Islam is. The West is scared of how many of their own people reject their dead-end ideology, and instead are turning to Islam. This is what scares people like you the most. Your own son or daughter might become a Muslim and reject your destructive way of life, and attempt to guide you to the truth, of which you have turned your back on.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:09pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 10:59am: Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians. Don't count on Avraham actually realising he just made the case against himself.

it does.
We were in the Holy Land first and God Himself gave us the land.

So it does say it should be us by this logic.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:47pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB

Muslims are aggressive.

You can even see it in the unsaid words.

See the immigration office in Sydney.

Two Arabs sit close to my friend and myself. We can see their face as they view the documents in my hand and they see passport with "State of Israel" on front of our books.

You should see their face. You can see what they are thinking.

They have burning hatred of the Jews. We can see it in their eyes.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:55pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 10:59am: Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians. Don't count on Avraham actually realising he just made the case against himself. it does. We were in the Holy Land first and God Himself gave us the land. So it does say it should be us by this logic.

Where is this supposed "god" now? Why isnt he fixing your problems?

SOB

Quote:

Muslims are aggressive.

And the jews are not?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:55pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 10:59am: Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians. Don't count on Avraham actually realising he just made the case against himself. it does. We were in the Holy Land first and God Himself gave us the land. So it does say it should be us by this logic. Where is this supposed "god" now? Why isnt he fixing your problems? SOB

He gives us the belief to fix our own problems.
He gives us the strength to defend our land and battle as the little nation against evil.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:03pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:00pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:55pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 10:59am: Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians. Don't count on Avraham actually realising he just made the case against himself. it does. We were in the Holy Land first and God Himself gave us the land. So it does say it should be us by this logic. Where is this supposed "god" now? Why isnt he fixing your problems? SOB He gives us the belief to fix our own problems. He gives us the strength to defend our land and battle as the little nation against evil.

Obviously not a peaceful god

SOB

It is us that offers the peace.

Do you know we pulled out of Gaza on our own free will.

We were tired of waiting for the Palestinians to agree the terms so we just leave.

What happens?

Gun battles between Fatah and Hamas for control and they start fighting each other and killing each other.

So tell me - who is it that wants peace?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

It is us that offers the peace. Do you know we pulled out of Gaza on our own free will. We were tired of waiting for the Palestinians to agree the terms so we just leave. What happens? Gun battles between Fatah and Hamas for control and they start fighting each other and killing each other. So tell me - who is it that wants peace?

Well as you failed to answer in the other thread why wont israel do the peace talks? Why continue the bulldozing? Why not actually try to have peace?

SOB

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:48pm:

We both know this isn't the case. Also we both know the West is scared of how powerful a belief system Islam is. The West is scared of how many of their own people reject their dead-end ideology, and instead are turning to Islam. This is what scares people like you the most. Your own son or daughter might become a Muslim and reject your destructive way of life, and attempt to guide you to the truth, of which you have turned your back on.

Dead-end? Islam is the dead-end. It's submission to a god. That's a sure way to nothing. Liberal democracies are those that offer the future. It allows the one great thing that ensures a future: Individual creation/discovery in the arts and sciences. Innovations are always conjured by creative, strong-headed individuals, or a group of creative, strong-headed individuals, those that can posit and formulate new ideas and rupture the weak or outmoded paradigms. It is this very rejection of the arts and sciences as to why your Islam is a dead-end. It's a repeat of the same ol' same ol' and to hell with any practical or pragmatic innovations.

The major downfall to individual freedom is it allows traitors such as yourself the freedom to undermine the society. 

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:00pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:55pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 10:59am: Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians. Don't count on Avraham actually realising he just made the case against himself. it does. We were in the Holy Land first and God Himself gave us the land. So it does say it should be us by this logic. Where is this supposed "god" now? Why isnt he fixing your problems? SOB

What problem? Israel is a successful, thriving country, even as it is surrounded and threatened by poor, incompetent yet hostile muslim countries with much, much greater populations, territories and resources. What do they all have in common? They are Arabs and Islamic.

There would be no Israel if they were surrounded by hundreds of millions of hostile vikings or Swiss or Germans. That's why the Jews are grateful and rightly say, 'thank god we have the Arabs for enemies'.i

 

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:47pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB

You missed a question soren

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 12:47pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB

Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'.

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:52pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:47pm: Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'.

When has that happened in australia?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:55pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 2:52pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:47pm: Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'. When has that happened in australia? SOB

Great! There has been no bubonic plague  epidemic in Australia, therefore it's too early to say if it is really dangerous or not.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:03pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:47pm: Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB You missed a question soren SOB

You missed a question soren

SOB

Soren wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:59pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 2:55pm: freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 2:52pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:47pm: Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'. When has that happened in australia? SOB Great! There has been no bubonic plague  epidemic in Australia, therefore it's too early to say if it is really dangerous or not.

There have been a few Islamic terrorists arrested in Australia recently. If you can manage to get Spot to acknowledge that this even happened, he will no doubt insist it was a conspiracy and the terrorists were not dangerous at all - again because apparently the threat does not exist until they manage a major terrorist attack on our soil.

Spot even tried to tell me that Australians were not targetted in Bali. He couldn't say who was the target, he just 'knew' it was not Australians, similar to how he just 'knows' everything until you ask him about it.

Plus there was the muslim camel terrorists from our early history.

freediver wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:52pm:

Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'.

Sounds like the creation of "Israel".

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 3:55pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 2:52pm: Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'. Sounds like the creation of "Israel".

Sounds like a tribe of mad moos in 630AD but they carried on for the next 1382 yrs

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 3:55pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 2:52pm: Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'. Sounds like the creation of "Israel".

You guys were useless and irritating for hundreds of years. There was no Israel between the 16th and the 20th centuries. What did Muslims do? Slave trading and piracy and ... er... that's it.  All the supposed glories of islamic science and invention predate the Renaissance. Since then, nothing.
Complete torpor for centuries. Even now, only your Jew hatred motivates you and only for murderous mayhem. You stand for the elimination of Israel and the restoration of 7th century Arab mental universe. Both these are absolutely non-negotiable for you Islamists.i

Soren wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

There was no Israel between the 16th and the 20th centuries.

So you think there was an "Israel" in the 15th. century? Can you show me a little evidence of it? Rough borders? Coins minted? Names of rulers? What kind of state was it? What relationship did it have with the Mameluke Sultanate, which just so happened to claim sovereignty over the same stretch of land around that time? Can you show evidence of any "Israel"  even since the dawn of the Christian era? As far as I'm aware, the Kingdom of Israel ceased to exist in the early first millennium B.C.E. (ie. 2500+ years ago)

Better brush up on your history I think. Or alternatively you could continue living in the delusional Zionist propaganda fairyland.

Arabs have been offered peace.

They already have Gaza because Israel peacefully withdraw its forces on its own accord.

Now Israel offers them to live in the majority of West Bank.

They have a choice.

They can have peace.

Or the fools can throw stones at our tanks and we will clean the dirt with their face in return.

Let the Arabs decide their fate but they will NEVER beat the Jews.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 8:13pm:

They have a choice.

They have a choice to either accept a tiny little portion of their land, and let some foreigners come and live in their homes, whilst they rot in refugee camps? Or to resist and expel the invaders? Yes I'm sure that's a great choice.


Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 15^th, 2012 at 8:13pm:

They can have peace.

You don't enter someone's home, kill half their family, kick them out on the street and then claim "You can have peace".

Surely even you should be able to see why this is totally unacceptable.

In fact the Qur'an tells us that that Jews proclaim themselves to be "peacemakers" when clearly they are not:

"And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only."

Quote:

They have a choice to either accept a tiny little portion of their land, and let some foreigners come and live in their homes, whilst they rot in refugee camps?

My understanding of international law is that this is correct - Israel may seize land from invading countries. Whether those people rot in refugee camps is really up to those other neighbouring countries, who are also blockading. It's a bit rich to blame Israel for them. My guess is that like Abu and Falah, those neighbouring countries want to prolong the suffering and violence until one day they can have their glorious military victory over Israel.

freediver wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 9:09am:

Quote: They have a choice to either accept a tiny little portion of their land, and let some foreigners come and live in their homes, whilst they rot in refugee camps? My understanding of international law is that this is correct - Israel may seize land from invading countries. Whether those people rot in refugee camps is really up to those other neighbouring countries, who are also blockading. It's a bit rich to blame Israel for them. My guess is that like Abu and Falah, those neighbouring countries want to prolong the suffering and violence until one day they can have their glorious military victory over Israel.

"Israel" is the invading entity, that is entirely built upon seized land.

Last time we had this discussion you said it was 'illegal immigration', not invasion, then ran away when I asked you to explain how it was illegal.

Is this the sort of double standard that Islam uses to 'save' Jews?

freediver wrote on Jun 9^th, 2012 at 10:08pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 9:12pm: freediver wrote on Jun 9th, 2012 at 5:50pm: Abu, are you referring to the entire nation of Israel? There is no such nation. I am referring to the Zionist outpost that is currently polluting all of Palestine. So the nation of Israel is a figment of our collective imagination?

FD,

That is absolutely true!

Just ask a moslem.

Coz, we all know, that moslems are scrupulously honest.
/sarc off




Yadda wrote on May 20^th, 2011 at 11:56am:

.......According to ISLAM, there is only one true religion [i.e. ISLAM]. And according to ISLAM, Abraham, Moses, David and Jesus were all prophets of ISLAM, and so [according to ISLAM], these Biblical persons were devout 'believers', i.e. true moslems. My House is Mine; Your House is Mine Too! by Syed Kamran Mirza http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/my_house_is_mine.htm Google; abraham moses david jesus "prophets of islam" were muslims Allah gave the Torah to Moses. .......we all know that Allah wouldn't give his scripture to Jews! Spit, spit! Moses received the Torah from Allah. It says so, in the Koran... Koran 3.2-3 Koran 5.66-69 "The inerrant Koran" http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295396564/0#0 Google; Torah is scripture, from Allah ......What about the history of ancient Israel, recorded in the Bible ??? According to moslems today, those accounts of the people [Jews], was myth, a lie, 'made up', fabricated, by Jews. And the historic account of a 'Jewish' temple in Jerusalem? That, also is another myth/lie, fabricated, by Jews. Those temples were moslem temples!!! ISLAMIC evidence for such claims ??? They, moslems say so. And moslems would never, ever, lie!! /sarc off Chief Muslim claims Jewish Temples never existed March 15, 2007 "....The Jewish Temples never existed.......descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged, and that the Torah was falsified to claim Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs were Jewish when indeed they were prophets for Islam." http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=40628 Temple Mount '100% Islamic' June 01, 2008 "....Taysir Tamimi, chief Palestinian Justice and one of the most influential Muslim leaders in Israel, argued the Jewish Temples never existed,...." http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65919

Soren wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 1:45pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 1:00pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:55pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:09pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 10:59am: Actually according to your logic yes aussies should give australia to the aboriginals and americans should give america to the indians. Don't count on Avraham actually realising he just made the case against himself. it does. We were in the Holy Land first and God Himself gave us the land. So it does say it should be us by this logic. Where is this supposed "god" now? Why isnt he fixing your problems? SOB What problem? Israel is a successful, thriving country, even as it is surrounded and threatened by poor, incompetent yet hostile muslim countries with much, much greater populations, territories and resources. What do they all have in common? They are Arabs and Islamic. There would be no Israel if they were surrounded by hundreds of millions of hostile vikings or Swiss or Germans. That's why the Jews are grateful and rightly say, 'thank god we have the Arabs for enemies'.

Quote:

'thank god we have the Arabs for enemies'

ROFLOL


Exactly so, Soren!!     ;D     ;D     ;D





+++



Ezekiel 37:21
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22  And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23  Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24  And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25  And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26  Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27  My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28  And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11^th, 2012 at 2:55pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 2:52pm: Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:47pm: Soren wrote on Jun 11th, 2012 at 12:28pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 10th, 2012 at 2:02pm: Ok so nothing for you to worry about, go back to your dreary old miserable life and stop concerning yourself with the affairs of Muslims. By your own admission we cannot amount to anything, so you are safe, carry on then. Believe me, I would love to be oblivious to Muslims beyond bellydancing and fantastic tales of flying carpets.  But the bvggers never cease get into our faces and push their primitive and aggressive and stupid ideology onto us. We might not be much interested in Muslims and Islam but they are interested in us. I'd love you all to go to your 'Muslim lands' and live there.  Over here you are nothing but trouble. Oh? How are they in your face? Do they knock on your door and try to convert you? Do they accost you in the street and tell you you will go to hell if you dont go to their church? Do they hand you pieces of paper when you are trying to shop? Is their religious crap all over the tv on sunday and is their "god" mentioned all the time in the media? do they attempt to brainwash your kids @ school with their religion? SOB Blowing up buildings, busses, nightclubs etc is pretty 'in your face'. When has that happened in australia? SOB

SPOT

Moslems have been convicted, and are in goal, in Australia, right now, at this moment for planning to kill Australians, in Australia.

Those moslems had planned, and intended to kill >> Australians << because we are not moslems.

I will say it again, moslems planned, and intended to kill >> Australians << because we are not moslems.



If moslems could, moslems would kill 100's of thousands of Australians, as often as every week.

Australians have no value, to moslems.

We [Australians] are deemed to be the enemies, of moslems.

Moslems hate us, because we are not moslems.

Moslems want us to fear them.

Moslems imagine that if we Australians fear them, then we Australians will be much easier to 'manage' and influence.

Moslems are THUGS, AND WANNA-BE MURDERS.

That is what ISLAM teaches, to every moslem.

That is; That it is 'lawful' for moslems, to kill those, who do not believe as they believe.






HOW DO MOSLEMS 'CHARACTERISE' NON-MOSLEMS ?   E.G. AUSTRALIANS ?


EXAMPLE #1,
Anjem Choudary is a UK moslem community leader in the UK....

KILLING OF NON-MUSLIMS IS LEGITIMATE
"...when we say innocent people, we mean moslems."
"....[not accepting ISLAM] is a crime against God."
"...If you are a non-moslem, then you are guilty of not believing in God."
"...as a moslem....i must have hatred towards everything which is non-ISLAM."
"...[moslems] allegiance is always with the moslems, so i will never condemn a moslem for what he does."
"...Britain has always been Dar al Harb [the Land of War]"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maHSOB2RFm4





EXAMPLE #2,
Attack on London 'inevitable'
April 19, 2004
"We don't make a distinction between civilians and non-civilians, innocents and non-innocents. Only between Muslims and unbelievers. And the life of an unbeliever has no value. It has no sanctity."
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/04/19/1082326119414.html?from=storyrhs&oneclick=true




EXAMPLE #3,

Quote:

July 9, 2007 Muslims declare sovereignty over U.S., UK Across town from the site of the recent attempted car-bomb attacks, several thousand Muslims gathered in front of the London Central Mosque to applaud fiery preachers prophesying the overthrow of the British government – a future vision that encompasses an Islamic takeover of the White House and the rule of the Quran over America. "One day my dear Muslims," shouted Anjem Choudary, "Islam will govern Britain!" "......Queen Elizabeth, go to hell!" ......angry Muslim leader Abu Saif, who kept his voice at a fever pitch through declarations such as: "Brothers and sisters, make no mistake. Make no mistake. The British government, the queen, the MPs in this country, they are enemies to you, enemies to Allah and enemies to the Muslims."

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/07/muslims-declare-sovereignty-over-us-uk.html

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 16^th, 2012 at 10:04am:

"Islam" is the invading entity, that is entirely built upon seized land

I do so agree with you Abu Rashid and commend you for telling the truth at last.

Grow up you tool.

Islam is a belief system that spread amongst people through daw'ah (invitation). It did not conquer anything, other than by capturing people's hearts. If it were merely a case of military conquest, then Islam & Muslims would've ended up like Genghis Khan and his empire.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 7:05pm:

Grow up you tool. Islam is a belief system that spread amongst people through daw'ah (invitation). It did not conquer anything, other than by capturing people's hearts. If it were merely a case of military conquest, then Islam & Muslims would've ended up like Genghis Khan and his empire.

So why does Islam require you to stone people to death who apostasize?

Why did Muhammed himself kill so many people?

All self defense, right? Including the invasion of Spain from North Africa?

All belief systems have their laws. Why does the Western belief system require you to fry someone's brain for stealing or killing or apostasising from the Western state (ie. treason)?

Quote:

Why does the Western belief system require you to fry someone's brain for stealing

;D

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 7:08pm:

Why did Muhammed himself kill so many people?

Who exactly did he himself kill?


freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 7:08pm:

All self defense, right? Including the invasion of Spain from North Africa?

Yes what a great invasion, they came over on the boats of Spaniards themselves. Do yourself a favour and learn the history before speaking about it. Then again, falling flat on your face doesn't appear to register as shameful to you, so carry on as you were.

The Muslims will regret the day they started to fight with the Jews.

If they want war then they can have it.

Quote:

Yes what a great invasion, they came over on the boats of Spaniards themselves.

To participate in a war.

Yeh unlike those good little Spaniards who didn't participate in any wars. And the Muslims weren't being dragged along to help one faction of Spaniards against another, were they? Oh no, of course not. Not in fd's delusional little view of the big bad Muslim invasions.

Sometimes one wonders whether you're sheepishly stupid or cunningly devious in your portrayal of history.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 7:36pm:

The Muslims will regret the day they started to fight with the Jews. If they want war then they can have it.

Avram,

The only regret is going to be the Zionists', for not learning their lesson during WWII, and instead attempting to carry out a similar act against another innocent population.

One day you will wake up to the fact that you've done the Palestinians what the Nazis did to you, you've become just as bad. And it will be your undoing.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:03pm:

Yeh unlike those good little Spaniards who didn't participate in any wars. And the Muslims weren't being dragged along to help one faction of Spaniards against another, were they? Oh no, of course not. Not in fd's delusional little view of the big bad Muslim invasions. Sometimes one wonders whether you're sheepishly stupid or cunningly devious in your portrayal of history.

Abu, I am not claiming anything on behalf of the Spaniards. You however are claiming that Islam did not spread by the sword. This is a complete rejection of reality.

Didn't you yourself once describe this invasion as a standard 'divide and conquer' military strategy?

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:14pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 8:03pm: Yeh unlike those good little Spaniards who didn't participate in any wars. And the Muslims weren't being dragged along to help one faction of Spaniards against another, were they? Oh no, of course not. Not in fd's delusional little view of the big bad Muslim invasions. Sometimes one wonders whether you're sheepishly stupid or cunningly devious in your portrayal of history. Abu, I am not claiming anything on behalf of the Spaniards. You however are claiming that Islam did not spread by the sword. This is a complete rejection of reality. Didn't you yourself once describe this invasion as a standard 'divide and conquer' military strategy?

He is a moslem.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:05pm:

The only regret is going to be the Zionists', for not learning their lesson during WWII

You disgusting racist muslim. I think you should be reported for hate speech sub human!

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:05pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 7:36pm: The Muslims will regret the day they started to fight with the Jews. If they want war then they can have it. Avram, The only regret is going to be the Zionists', for not learning their lesson during WWII, and instead attempting to carry out a similar act against another innocent population. One day you will wake up to the fact that you've done the Palestinians what the Nazis did to you, you've become just as bad. And it will be your undoing.

Gas chambers, death squads and final solutions?
No I don't think so.

Who pulled from Gaza on our own?
This is the work of nazis? I don't think so.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:40pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 8:05pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 7:36pm: The Muslims will regret the day they started to fight with the Jews. If they want war then they can have it. Avram, The only regret is going to be the Zionists', for not learning their lesson during WWII, and instead attempting to carry out a similar act against another innocent population. One day you will wake up to the fact that you've done the Palestinians what the Nazis did to you, you've become just as bad. And it will be your undoing. Gas chambers, death squads and final solutions? No I don't think so. Who pulled from Gaza on our own? This is the work of nazis? I don't think so.

Either Abu or Falah (forget which one) tried to pass that off as a military victory for the palestinians.

freediver wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:50pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 8:40pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 8:05pm: Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 7:36pm: The Muslims will regret the day they started to fight with the Jews. If they want war then they can have it. Avram, The only regret is going to be the Zionists', for not learning their lesson during WWII, and instead attempting to carry out a similar act against another innocent population. One day you will wake up to the fact that you've done the Palestinians what the Nazis did to you, you've become just as bad. And it will be your undoing. Gas chambers, death squads and final solutions? No I don't think so. Who pulled from Gaza on our own? This is the work of nazis? I don't think so. Either Abu or Falah (forget which one) tried to pass that off as a military victory for the palestinians.

Israel grew tired of waiting for the Palestinians to give a date so we withdraw unilaterally.

Result?
Fatah and Hamas fight each other in the streets of Gaza city for control?

They are like uncontrolled pack of dogs most times.
They are total undisciplined.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:53pm:

Israel grew tired of waiting for the Palestinians to give a date so we withdraw unilaterally.

Israel ran away like little girls.



Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:53pm:

Result? Fatah and Hamas fight each other in the streets of Gaza city for control?

Hamas won a democratic election, and then had to fight to wrest control from the Israel-funded Fatah puppets who were ordered by Israel to not relinquish power to Hamas.

falah wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 9:36pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 8:53pm: Israel grew tired of waiting for the Palestinians to give a date so we withdraw unilaterally. Israel ran away like little girls. Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 8:53pm: Result? Fatah and Hamas fight each other in the streets of Gaza city for control? Hamas won a democratic election, and then had to fight to wrest control from the Israel-funded Fatah puppets who were ordered by Israel to not relinquish power to Hamas.

Little girls?
it was not us that ran from every war in the 20. century?

It is not us that sends our children to throw rocks at tanks.

Cowards.
Muslim cowards.

Quote:

Israel ran away like little girls.

;D

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 17^th, 2012 at 8:05pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 17th, 2012 at 7:36pm: The Muslims will regret the day they started to fight with the Jews. If they want war then they can have it. Avram, The only regret is going to be the Zionists', for not learning their lesson during WWII, and instead attempting to carry out a similar act against another innocent population. One day you will wake up to the fact that you've done the Palestinians what the Nazis did to you, you've become just as bad. And it will be your undoing.

So there is my grandparents in Tel Aviv, then my father in Tel Aviv and now me.

How many generations must we wait before we see this glorious victory which will drive us out of our land?
Maybe my son's son's son's son???

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 18^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

So there is my grandparents in Tel Aviv..

Just like Tel Aviv itself, they were not always there were they? They were from Czech Republic, and that's where you belong. That's your homeland, your promised land, not Palestine.

...says the white australian

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 7:27pm:

...says the white australian

It is crazy. He must be very confused.

A white Muslim Australian!

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 7:27pm:

...says the white australian

When you see me pointing a machine gun in the face of kids, and expelling them from their homes with bulldozers, then perhaps this might be relevant. Until then, it's just your usual poor attempt to side step the enormous injustice that's been done, and that, more importantly, continues to be done day in and day out to the people of occupied-Palestine.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 19^th, 2012 at 10:23pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2012 at 7:27pm: ...says the white australian It is crazy. He must be very confused. A white Muslim Australian!

Unlike your religion, mine is not a racially based one. Islam is for humans of any skin colour or nationality, for all humanity.

More surprisingly you might be shocked to know of Jewish Muslims.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 9:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2012 at 7:27pm: ...says the white australian When you see me pointing a machine gun in the face of kids, and expelling them from their homes with bulldozers, then perhaps this might be relevant. Until then, it's just your usual poor attempt to side step the enormous injustice that's been done, and that, more importantly, continues to be done day in and day out to the people of occupied-Palestine.

They have the entire Arab world to go and live.

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m42wgxi67C1rs77jno1_1280.jpg

Avram Horowitz wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 11:11pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 21st, 2012 at 9:57pm: freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2012 at 7:27pm: ...says the white australian When you see me pointing a machine gun in the face of kids, and expelling them from their homes with bulldozers, then perhaps this might be relevant. Until then, it's just your usual poor attempt to side step the enormous injustice that's been done, and that, more importantly, continues to be done day in and day out to the people of occupied-Palestine. They have the entire Arab world to go and live.

Right, and Palestine is very much a part of the Arab world. Clearly it's not part of Europe, which is where your heritage is.

So you have all of Europe to go and live in, on yer bike then.

Falah, do you see any contradiction between your Islam-based rejection of racism and telling people they should be forced to leave their home because of their ancestry?


abu_rashid wrote on Jun 21^st, 2012 at 9:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2012 at 7:27pm: ...says the white australian When you see me pointing a machine gun in the face of kids, and expelling them from their homes with bulldozers, then perhaps this might be relevant.

Isn't that what you want for Jews like Avram?

Why is Avram's heritage relevant to where he ought be allowed to live, but not yours?

freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 7:55pm:

Falah, do you see any contradiction between your Islam-based rejection of racism and telling people they should be forced to leave their home because of their ancestry?

No, not their home, the home of some poor Palestinian who is now living in a refugee camp.

Surely you're not that braindead, that you can't see the problem here? Millions of Palestinians live in refugee camps, so Zionists can come and live in their homes, and you think there's nothing wrong with that? Instead in your deluded little point of view, the wrong is done by people like falah for speaking out against such inhuman trash?


freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 7:55pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 21st, 2012 at 9:57pm: freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2012 at 7:27pm: ...says the white australian When you see me pointing a machine gun in the face of kids, and expelling them from their homes with bulldozers, then perhaps this might be relevant. Isn't that what you want for Jews like Avram?

You're a goose really. That's what Palestinians suffer every single day, yet you seem to think the mere mention of whether someone wants the perpetrator of it to taste it himself is so scarey, you're actually trying to threaten questioning me whether that's what I want? Do you actually stop and read the crap you write?


freediver wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 7:55pm:

Why is Avram's heritage relevant to where he ought be allowed to live, but not yours?

Read it again, when you see me pointing machine guns in the face of kids, and bulldozing their homes to make them my own, and herding them into refugee camps, then this kind of question will have some semblance of relevance. Until such a point in time, your questions just make you look like a prime grade A tosser.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 10:02pm:

Read it again, when you see me pointing machine guns in the face of kids, and bulldozing their homes to make them my own, and herding them into refugee camps, then this kind of question will have some semblance of relevance. Until such a point in time, your questions just make you look like a prime grade A tosser.

More to the point: you and millions of other Muslims, hostile though you are, can and do live unmolested in the west. You do not need guns to defend yourselves, the law defends you. Nobody is lobbing crude rockets into Lakemba or Finsbury Park.

SO the question is very relevant and you dodge it precisely because it is relevant.

Soren wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 10:08pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 24th, 2012 at 10:02pm: Read it again, when you see me pointing machine guns in the face of kids, and bulldozing their homes to make them my own, and herding them into refugee camps, then this kind of question will have some semblance of relevance. Until such a point in time, your questions just make you look like a prime grade A tosser. More to the point: you and millions of other Muslims, hostile though you are, can and do live unmolested in the west. You do not need guns to defend yourselves, the law defends you. Nobody is lobbing crude rockets into Lakemba or Finsbury Park. SO the question is very relevant and you dodge it precisely because it is relevant.

You're right soren, the Aussies aren't lobbing rockets into Lakemba... perhaps when they all get herded into refugee camps, and find Muslims living in their former homes, the thought might just cross their minds?

Please do tell me how you think you'd react if you ended up a refugee in your own land (or on the fringes of it), and some religious minority waltzed in and setup shop in your home? Think you might then be able to have just a drop of empathy with the former residents of Majd who are now refugees in Gaza, and who lob rockets at the Zionist outpost of Sderot that was bvuilt on top of Majd?

I'm just dying for a Zionist or Zionist-hanger-oner to answer this one for me. Not surprisingly none ever have... Perhaps you can be the first? since you're big on noting who does and doesn't dodge questions.

Quote:

Surely you're not that braindead, that you can't see the problem here? Millions of Palestinians live in refugee camps, so Zionists can come and live in their homes

Were they living in refugee camps prior to the wars?


Quote:

Instead in your deluded little point of view, the wrong is done by people like falah for speaking out against such inhuman trash?

The wrong he does is in calling for more inhumane actions. There is a big difference between criticising Israeli foreign policy and demanding the destruction of the nation and another force mass migration.


Quote:

You're a goose really. That's what Palestinians suffer every single day, yet you seem to think the mere mention of whether someone wants the perpetrator of it to taste it himself is so scarey, you're actually trying to threaten questioning me whether that's what I want? Do you actually stop and read the crap you write?

So it is what you want for Jews like Avram?


Quote:

Read it again, when you see me pointing machine guns in the face of kids, and bulldozing their homes to make them my own, and herding them into refugee camps, then this kind of question will have some semblance of relevance. Until such a point in time, your questions just make you look like a prime grade A tosser

I see. So you cannot explain your own obvious hypocrisy, and asking you about it is some kind of threat? Why does the question threaten you? Is your hypocrisy only relevant when you cease being so impotent in actually carrying out your evil plans?

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 9:29am:

Quote: Surely you're not that braindead, that you can't see the problem here? Millions of Palestinians live in refugee camps, so Zionists can come and live in their homes Were they living in refugee camps prior to the wars?

Not like I haven't posted this for you before, PLEASE READ. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_Dalet

Get back to me when you've covered it, and know the basic history about what precipitated the war (ie. the expulsion of Palestinians, making them refugees).


freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 9:29am:

Quote: Instead in your deluded little point of view, the wrong is done by people like falah for speaking out against such inhuman trash? The wrong he does is in calling for more inhumane actions. There is a big difference between criticising Israeli foreign policy and demanding the destruction of the nation and another force mass migration.

The Zionist installation exists at the expense of millions of Palestinians. So damn right it should be IMMEDIATELY dismantled, and those who've come there should be returned back to their countries of origin.

You continually speak of this as if it's some distant historical event, it is not, it is being done as we speak.


freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 9:29am:

Quote: You're a goose really. That's what Palestinians suffer every single day, yet you seem to think the mere mention of whether someone wants the perpetrator of it to taste it himself is so scarey, you're actually trying to threaten questioning me whether that's what I want? Do you actually stop and read the crap you write? So it is what you want for Jews like Avram?

Yes, all Zionists should go back to their own countries, and vacate the homes of the Palestinians, so they can leave their refugee camps and return to their homes. No solution will be achieved until this basic inhumanity is reversed. Even discussing the issue is equivalent to the Jews negotiating with Hitler about how many Jews they'll let him gas. There is no negotiation on it.


freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 9:29am:

Quote: Read it again, when you see me pointing machine guns in the face of kids, and bulldozing their homes to make them my own, and herding them into refugee camps, then this kind of question will have some semblance of relevance. Until such a point in time, your questions just make you look like a prime grade A tosser I see. So you cannot explain your own obvious hypocrisy, and asking you about it is some kind of threat? Why does the question threaten you? Is your hypocrisy only relevant when you cease being so impotent in actually carrying out your evil plans?

[/quote]

In other words you concede that my situation is not even remotely like theirs, I don't point machine guns in kids faces or bulldoze their homes and push them into refugee camps, but you're just too much of a grade A tosser to admit it. No problem, I accept your half baked admission that you couldn't mount an argument to save yourself.

Were they living in refugee camps prior to the wars?


Quote:

So damn right it should be IMMEDIATELY dismantled, and those who've come there should be returned back to their countries of origin.

What about those who were born there?

Is this a good example of how Islam saved the Jews?

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 6:57pm:

[quote author=697D6A6A6B66796A7D0F0 link=1338909288/143#143 date=1340580555] Yes, all Zionists should go back to their own countries, and vacate the homes of the Palestinians, link=1338909288/143#143 date=1340580555][quote]

What about us Zionists (people who believe that Israel has a right to exist) who don't live in Israel, and aren't Jewish????

freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 7:55pm:

Were they living in refugee camps prior to the wars?

I implore you, read the link.


freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 7:55pm:

What about those who were born there?

If you're born in a military occupation outpost, that doesn't give you a legitimate right to stay in someone elses home, certainly not to control their homes, whilst they live in refugee camps. It might entitle you to seek asylum under those returning to their homes, but certainly not to maintain the military outpost.

Do you think for instance the children of Nazi occupiers of France, Poland etc. should have a right to maintain Nazi regimes in those countries, just because they were born there? Should the Polish and French have been denied the right to take their countries back, just so those children of Nazis could maintain Nazi regimes where they were born?

What kind of idiocy are you peddling here fd?


freediver wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 7:55pm:

Is this a good example of how Islam saved the Jews?

Is what a good example?

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 25th, 2012 at 6:57pm: [quote author=697D6A6A6B66796A7D0F0 link=1338909288/143#143 date=1340580555] Yes, all Zionists should go back to their own countries, and vacate the homes of the Palestinians, link=1338909288/143#143 date=1340580555][quote] What about us Zionists (people who believe that Israel has a right to exist) who don't live in Israel, and aren't Jewish????

They have no rational minds.
This is why they support the people who deliberate set off bombs to kill Israeli children and women.

If the Arabs want war, then they will wish there was a day they did not start to fight the Jews.
We are a strong people.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 24^th, 2012 at 11:18pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 24th, 2012 at 10:08pm: abu_rashid wrote on Jun 24th, 2012 at 10:02pm: Read it again, when you see me pointing machine guns in the face of kids, and bulldozing their homes to make them my own, and herding them into refugee camps, then this kind of question will have some semblance of relevance. Until such a point in time, your questions just make you look like a prime grade A tosser. More to the point: you and millions of other Muslims, hostile though you are, can and do live unmolested in the west. You do not need guns to defend yourselves, the law defends you. Nobody is lobbing crude rockets into Lakemba or Finsbury Park. SO the question is very relevant and you dodge it precisely because it is relevant. You're right soren, the Aussies aren't lobbing rockets into Lakemba... perhaps when they all get herded into refugee camps, and find Muslims living in their former homes, the thought might just cross their minds? Please do tell me how you think you'd react if you ended up a refugee in your own land (or on the fringes of it), and some religious minority waltzed in and setup shop in your home? Think you might then be able to have just a drop of empathy with the former residents of Majd who are now refugees in Gaza, and who lob rockets at the Zionist outpost of Sderot that was bvuilt on top of Majd? I'm just dying for a Zionist or Zionist-hanger-oner to answer this one for me. Not surprisingly none ever have... Perhaps you can be the first? since you're big on noting who does and doesn't dodge questions.

A couple of things, semi-randomly:
There were Jews there a long time before any Muslims existed.
The Muslims also conquered that bit of territory and much else besides. SO don't get all huffy about a little bit of conquest off you.
You guys tried to kill off Israel a couple of times, unsuccessfully. Now they are well and truly in the majority there and the Arabs and the Muslims are the minority. How about you respect that?
Muslims are a minority everywhere in the west - but look at the demands they make wherever their numbers reach a couple of percent.
Elsewhere in the world? Muslim population of Thailand? 5 %. Phillipines? 5%. Is there bloody demand by  Muslims break-away territory? Yes. ANy other countries mired in conflict on account of their Muslim minority? yes. Palestine's jewish population in 1946? 30%. SO in a way they are not doing anything different to what Muslim have been and are doing.

You are just upset by being repaid in your own coin. And by the Jews. That's your big problem. When the Brits or the French took over large swathes of 'Muslim lands', it was no biggie by comparison. It's the Jews that you re all upset about. The jewish reconquista is contrary to what Mohammed said. Israel represents a cognitive dissonance for Muslims who cannot ever reconcile the actuality of Israel and the Koranic prophecy.

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 9:21pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2012 at 7:55pm: Were they living in refugee camps prior to the wars? I implore you, read the link. freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2012 at 7:55pm: What about those who were born there? If you're born in a military occupation outpost, that doesn't give you a legitimate right to stay in someone elses home, certainly not to control their homes, whilst they live in refugee camps. It might entitle you to seek asylum under those returning to their homes, but certainly not to maintain the military outpost. Do you think for instance the children of Nazi occupiers of France, Poland etc. should have a right to maintain Nazi regimes in those countries, just because they were born there? Should the Polish and French have been denied the right to take their countries back, just so those children of Nazis could maintain Nazi regimes where they were born? What kind of idiocy are you peddling here fd? freediver wrote on Jun 25th, 2012 at 7:55pm: Is this a good example of how Islam saved the Jews? Is what a good example?

Abu, the Nazis lost the war. The Muslims lost their wars against Israel. Where the Germans got on with their lives, the Muslims wanted to keep losing the same war forever. Just be thankful that the Jews did not adopt Islamic standards and enslave the Palestinians and rape all the women, then re-write the history books to explain how Judaism saved the Muslims.

Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

There were Jews there a long time before any Muslims existed.

We consider them to have been Muslims. The ancient Hebrews have no more link to the modern day Jews than they do to the modern day Muslims and Arabs.

Likewise there were Canaanites, Jubusites, Philistines and all other kinds of Semitic peoples there before the Jews, most of whom today are part of the Arab/Muslim community, as are most of the Hebrew originally of Palestine as well.


Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

The Muslims also conquered that bit of territory and much else besides. SO don't get all huffy about a little bit of conquest off you.

Ditto for the OT account.


Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

You guys tried to kill off Israel a couple of times, unsuccessfully.

We did nothing of the kind. Those wars were between puppet nationalists, not between Muslims. When "Israel" has a war against the Muslims, she'll know about it, just like the Soviets & Yanks know about it.


Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

Now they are well and truly in the majority there and the Arabs and the Muslims are the minority. How about you respect that?

No they are not.


Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

Muslims are a minority everywhere in the west - but look at the demands they make wherever their numbers reach a couple of percent.

Well perhaps when we emulate your beloved Zionists, and boot you out of your own home, then you'll respect us?  Seems to me that's the kind of behaviour you condone and approve of. So I say good, get ready for more. Stop your whinging, and suck it up.


Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

Elsewhere in the world? Muslim population of Thailand? 5 %. Phillipines? 5%. Is there bloody demand by  Muslims break-away territory? Yes. ANy other countries mired in conflict on account of their Muslim minority? yes. Palestine's jewish population in 1946? 30%. SO in a way they are not doing anything different to what Muslim have been and are doing.

Philipines was overrun by Christians. All of southern Philipines was originally part of Islamic Sultanate.

What was the population of Jews in 1900? Less than 2%.


Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

You are just upset by being repaid in your own coin. And by the Jews. That's your big problem. When the Brits or the French took over large swathes of 'Muslim lands', it was no biggie by comparison. It's the Jews that you re all upset about. The jewish reconquista is contrary to what Mohammed said. Israel represents a cognitive dissonance for Muslims who cannot ever reconcile the actuality of Israel and the Koranic prophecy.

Difference was Brits and French were just playing swashbucklers. They were there for a brief period, and so their presence was tolerated, knowing full well they weren't setting up shop there for good. The Zionist imposition was completely different, these mongrels actually got the idea they were gonna turf people out of their homes, and start squatting in them.

Again I ask you Soren, how would you react to that happening to your home? Please respond. If you can't, just admit you're a hypocritical loser and we'll move on.

Quote:

We consider them to have been Muslims.

LOL. I'm sure they appreciate that.


Quote:

The ancient Hebrews have no more link to the modern day Jews than they do to the modern day Muslims and Arabs.

Why not? Is Judaism not a link?


Quote:

We did nothing of the kind. Those wars were between puppet nationalists, not between Muslims. When "Israel" has a war against the Muslims, she'll know about it, just like the Soviets & Yanks know about it.

Ah yes, the glorious victory we have to look forward to, where Muslims destroy their own right to choose their own leaders and install another batch of dictators - only this time outsiders won't interfere and Muslims will finally have their shariah utopia, right Abu?


Quote:

No they are not.

Do you have the numbers Abu? When you say Muslims are the majority, is this because you consider Jews to be Muslims that just don't realise it yet?


Quote:

They were there for a brief period, and so their presence was tolerated, knowing full well they weren't setting up shop there for good.

Like Muslims tolerate them in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Quote:

There were Jews there a long time before any Muslims existed.

What makes you say that? Can you prove it? Without a religious text?

SOB

Spot are you denying that there were Jews there, or just asking people to prove the obvious?

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 12:26pm:

Spot are you denying that there were Jews there, or just asking people to prove the obvious?

Im saying that just because a fairy story says the jews were in that location doesnt mean they were.

SOB

deleted.

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 9:51am:

Quote: There were Jews there a long time before any Muslims existed. What makes you say that? Can you prove it? Without a religious text? SOB

Judea.



Google the word.

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 1:31pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 9:51am: Quote: There were Jews there a long time before any Muslims existed. What makes you say that? Can you prove it? Without a religious text? SOB Judea. Google the word.

Then again;

Moslems make an altogether different claim.....




Chief Muslim claims Jewish Temples never existed
March 15, 2007
"....The Jewish Temples never existed.......descriptions of the Jewish Temples in the Hebrew Tanach, in the Talmud and in Byzantine and Roman writings from the Temple periods were forged, and that the Torah was falsified to claim Biblical patriarchs and matriarchs were Jewish when indeed they were prophets for Islam."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=40628



Temple Mount '100% Islamic'
June 01, 2008
"....Taysir Tamimi, chief Palestinian Justice and one of the most influential Muslim leaders in Israel, argued the Jewish Temples never existed,...."
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=65919



Who are ya gonna believe ?

Historic accounts, and history books ?

Or are you going to believe what moslems are going to tell you ?

Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

Elsewhere in the world? Muslim population of Thailand? 5 %.

The three southern states were Muslim sultanates for centuries before the Thais invaded only about 100 years ago.

The Thai Buddhist terrorists invaded the three muslim-majority countries. The Muslims in those countries are resisting the Thai Buddhist terrorist occupation.




Soren wrote on Jun 25^th, 2012 at 10:13pm:

Phillipines? 5%.

Islam arrived in the Philippines peacefully about 400 years before the Christian terrorist invasion.

The British explorer William Dampier recorded that the island of Mindanao was a cosmopolitan Islamic sultanate 400 years ago, where many people were multi-lingual speaking Arabic, Malay and their local language.

Interestingly, William Dampier was amazed how the Muslim Filipinos bathed daily - something unheard of in Christian Europe at the time.

At the time that the Spanish Christian terrorists arrived in Philippines, the only organised areas of the Philippines were the sultanates of the Sulu Archipelago and the huge Island of Mindanao.

However, Islam had spread by this time into the north, with the modern capital, Manilla, deriving its name from the Arabic - Daru Emanillah (Home of the Belief in God). This was shortened by the Spanish Christian terrorists to Manila.

At the time of the Spanish Christian terrorist invasion, Manila was part of the Sulatanate of Brunei.

The Christians are invaders in the Philippines, many were forced by the Spanish to convert at the point of a sword.

Yadda wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 1:31pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 9:51am: Quote: There were Jews there a long time before any Muslims existed. What makes you say that? Can you prove it? Without a religious text? SOB Judea. Google the word.

You cant just answer a  question can you. Geez. Looks religion based to me. We shall see.

SOB

falah wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 1:40pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 25th, 2012 at 10:13pm: Elsewhere in the world? Muslim population of Thailand? 5 %. The three southern states were Muslim sultanates for centuries before the Thais invaded only about 100 years ago. The Thai Buddhist terrorists invaded the three muslim-majority countries. The Muslims in those countries are resisting the Thai Buddhist terrorist occupation.

Yadda paraphrases......


"The Buddhists and Hindus in many Asian & S.E. Asian countries [e.g. Thailand Burma, Nepal, India] are resisting the current day moslem terrorist attempts to reoccupy lands that were [originally] not moslem lands."

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 12:33pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 12:26pm: Spot are you denying that there were Jews there, or just asking people to prove the obvious? Im saying that just because a fairy story says the jews were in that location doesnt mean they were. SOB

Spot it is good to be open minded, but not so open minded that your brains fall out.

[img][img][/img][/img] [quote author=3B3C313C355D0 link=1338909288/160#160 date=1340682030

The three southern states were Muslim sultanates for centuries before the Thais invaded only about 100 years ago.

The Thai Buddhist terrorists invaded the three muslim-majority countries. The Muslims in those countries are resisting the Thai Buddhist terrorist occupation.[/quote]

Have just spent six weeks touring Thailand and Vietnam I can tell you that Buddhists were in Thai before the birth of Jesus. The Hindu religion somewhat later in the south (the areas you mention) was Hindu/Buddhist before islam was invented by your only prophet. 

---

I think that the Buddha is far better looking than a rock!

---

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

LOL. I'm sure they appreciate that.

I'm not overly concerned what they appreciate.


freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

Quote: The ancient Hebrews have no more link to the modern day Jews than they do to the modern day Muslims and Arabs. Why not? Is Judaism not a link?

The modern religion of Judaism actually has very little in common with the ancient religion of the Hebrews. If one examines them, one will find the religion of the ancient Hebrews has far more in common with Islam.


freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

Quote: No they are not. Do you have the numbers Abu? When you say Muslims are the majority, is this because you consider Jews to be Muslims that just don't realise it yet?

Muslims are majority of population of Palestine, this is just a simple fact. The only reason you would think not is if you deny the very existence of Palestinian refugees, a delusion I have no doubt you suffer.

Quote:

Muslims are majority of population of Palestine, this is just a simple fact.

What percentage do they make up?

freediver wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 10:30pm:

Quote: Muslims are majority of population of Palestine, this is just a simple fact. What percentage do they make up?

A good 75%.

Does that include Israel? Or just the 'occupied' territories?

Quote:

Have just spent six weeks touring Thailand and Vietnam I can tell you that Buddhists were in Thai before the birth of Jesus. The Hindu religion somewhat later in the south (the areas you mention) was Hindu/Buddhist before islam was invented by your only prophet.

I have lived in both of those countries in the 60s. I remember the big budha statues in thailand. In saigon the main religion that i came across was bahai.

SOB

abu_rashid wrote on Jun 26^th, 2012 at 11:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 26th, 2012 at 10:30pm: Quote: Muslims are majority of population of Palestine, this is just a simple fact. What percentage do they make up? A good 75%.

What about white people like you?

freediver wrote on Jun 27^th, 2012 at 12:32pm:

Does that include Israel? Or just the 'occupied' territories?

What? "Israel" *IS* the occupied territories. It includes, Gaza, West bank, The occupied territories (ie. "Israel") and adjoining refugee camps, housing the temporarily displaced.

I know the Western media has deviously tried to twist the situation so Gaza & West bank are considered the occupied territories, but they are the only areas not under [direct] occupation. The "state of Israel" is the occupied territory.

As can be seen in this map:

http://www.palqa.com/uploads/wars/1948/map_of_palestine_after%201948.gif

The red area marked as:  الأراضي المحتلة عام 1948  (The occupied territories of 1948).

You are 100% wrong

Where are the number from?

I am going to Tel Aviv on Wednesday.

Very exciting for my return since November!

I will post a nice photo of our beautiful city.