some gay guy to kill himself


Quote:

A FORMER Rutgers University student who used a webcam to spy on his gay roommate was sentenced to just 30 days in jail - a punishment that disappointed some activists but came as a relief to others who feared he would be made a scapegoat for his fellow freshman's suicide. Dharun Ravi, 20, could have gotten 10 years behind bars for his part in a case that burst onto the front pages after Tyler Clementi threw himself to his death off the George Washington Bridge. Instead, Superior Court Judge Glenn Berman gave Ravi a month in jail, placed him on three years' probation and ordered him to get counseling and pay $10,000 toward a program to help victims of hate crimes. "Our society has every right to expect zero tolerance for intolerance," the judge said. The tear-filled sentencing touched on many of the issues that made the case heart-wrenching and legally complicated: anti-gay bullying, teen suicide, hate-crime laws in the fast-changing internet age, and the uses and abuses of technology in the hands of young people. Ravi did not speak in court but shed tears as his mother pleaded with the judge not to send him to prison. Afterward, Ravi, his family and his lawyers left court without comment. He is expected to appeal his conviction. In handing down the sentence, the judge quoted an email from Clementi himself describing Ravi's conduct as "wildly inappropriate.'" At the same time, Berman pointed out that Ravi was not charged in Clementi's suicide. He also said Ravi has spent 20 months in "exile" since his arrest. And he suggested "hate crime" is a misnomer for what Ravi was convicted of: "I do not believe he hated Tyler Clementi." The judge said he would recommend Ravi not be deported to India, where he was born and remains a citizen. Deportation is still a possibility, but a sentence of a year or more would have been more likely to trigger it. Prosecutors had asked that Ravi be sent to prison; they did not say how much time he should get, other than that it did not have to be the maximum. Clearly unhappy with the sentence, prosecutors told the judge they will probably appeal it. If that happens, Ravi will not have to report to jail on May 31 as ordered. New Jersey gay rights organization Garden State Equality expressed disappointment with the punishment. In a statement, chairman Steven Goldstein suggested that while the maximum would have been an act of "vengeance," the 30-day sentence was too light. "This was not merely a childhood prank gone awry," Mr Goldstein said. Bill Dobbs, a New York gay rights activist who has long argued that hate-crime laws can be dangerous, said he believes the judge gave a short sentence in part in response to a backlash against the prosecution that became visible in recent weeks, including at a rally last week at New Jersey's Statehouse, where hundreds of people called for leniency. "Law and order cannot solve social problems," he said. "If you put too much pressure on one person, you can crush someone on the receiving end." The case began in September 2010 when Ravi's randomly assigned roommate asked Ravi for the dorm room alone so that he and a guest could have privacy. Ravi went to a friend's room, and they used a computer to watch Clementi and another man kissing. They told others about it through instant messages and tweets, with Ravi boasting: "I saw him making out with a dude. Yay." When Clementi asked for privacy again two days later, Ravi agreed, then told friends how to access his webcam. But this time, the camera was not on when the guest came over. There was testimony both that Clementi unplugged it and that Ravi himself put it to sleep. The next night, Clementi - who learned he had been spied on - committed suicide at age 18, leaving behind a final Facebook update: "jumping off the gw bridge, sorry." Gay-rights activists held up Clementi as an example of the consequences of bullying gays. President Barack Obama himself weighed in on the tragedy. Ravi was convicted in March of invasion of privacy, bias intimidation on the basis of sexual orientation - an offense widely referred to as a hate crime - and trying to cover his tracks by destroying text messages and tweets and tampering with a witness. As for Clementi's suicide, his mother, Jane Clementi, told the judge she didn't know exactly why her son killed himself. And Ravi's lawyers argued that the trial was not fair because the judge did not give them details from Clementi's computer that may have explained it. Ravi is "being demonised, demonised by the gay community, and they're associating whatever he did with the death of Tyler," said lawyer Steven Altman. Clementi's father, Joe Clementi, told the judge that Ravi deserved to be punished, saying the young man saw his son as undeserving of basic human decency. The elder Clementi said Ravi "still does not get it" and has no remorse. Ravi's mother, Sabitha Ravi, told the judge her son "doesn't have any hatred in his heart toward anybody." "Dharun's dreams are shattered and he has been living in hell for the past 20 months," she said through tears, recounting how he has lost more than 20 pounds from an already-thin frame and how he only finds comfort with his little brother and his dog. Before the trial, prosecutors had offered Ravi a plea bargain that called for no prison time. He turned it down. Read more: http://www.news.com.au/technology/student-gets-30-days-jail-for-triggering-tyler-clementis-suicide/story-e6frfro0-1226363055456#ixzz1vYutDaHw

pretty sad :( :( :(

Yeah a pretty low act, but criminally theres not much you could charge him with.

So they fight intolerance by being intolerant of it

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 12:44pm:

So they fight intolerance by being intolerant of it

That's Seppolia for you.....

Land of the ignorant and intolerant.

Kat wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 4:32pm:

bobbythefap1 wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:44pm: So they fight intolerance by being intolerant of it That's Seppolia for you..... Land of the ignorant and intolerant.

How is that different from Australia?

... wrote on May 22^nd, 2012 at 4:35pm:

Kat wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 4:32pm: bobbythefap1 wrote on May 22nd, 2012 at 12:44pm: So they fight intolerance by being intolerant of it That's Seppolia for you..... Land of the ignorant and intolerant. How is that different from Australia?

It isn't, much....sadly.

It is illegal to spy on people and post the results online.

If the young bloke hadn't of killed himself would a custodial sentence be warranted? A month doesn't seem at all sufficient considering the outcome of his malicious actions.

The guy committed suicide. It was his own decision to end his own life. Nobody else is responsible. The other guy prolly didnt help with the bullying but he wasnt the cause. The guy that killed himself already had problems obviously.

SOB

Why do so many young gays kill them selves?

Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY”

I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way.

What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all.

:-/

FriYAY wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:26am:

Why do so many young gays kill them selves? Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY” I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way. What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all. :-/

There is a "spectrum of gayness" but I think anybody who feels the need to "experiment" is firmly on the gay side. 

... wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:28am:

FriYAY wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:26am: Why do so many young gays kill them selves? Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY” I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way. What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all. :-/ There is a "spectrum of gayness" but I think anybody who feels the need to "experiment" is firmly on the gay side.

With us or against us huh? Bisexuals do exist you know.

SOB

... wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:28am:

FriYAY wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:26am: Why do so many young gays kill them selves? Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY” I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way. What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all. :-/ There is a "spectrum of gayness" but I think anybody who feels the need to "experiment" is firmly on the gay side.

Really?

You get a couple of young boys, good mates, spend a lot of time together, stay over night, hormones racing, willies going stiff for no reason.

I wonder how many would/wouldn’t admit to innocent experimentation growing up? – now you take that and add – YOU’RE BORN GAY.

No, I see many getting this born gay message and trying to cope with the confusion of not being or felling gay at all. Just being young and curious.

How do you escape?

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:33am:

... wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:28am: FriYAY wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:26am: Why do so many young gays kill them selves? Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY” I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way. What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all. :-/ There is a "spectrum of gayness" but I think anybody who feels the need to "experiment" is firmly on the gay side.  With us or against us huh? Bisexuals do exist you know. SOB

With us or agains us?  No - that's why I introduced the "spectrum of gayness" (patent pending).

Say for example, you unwittingly stuck it to a ladyboy.  That's technically gay, but on the lower end of the spectrum of gayness (SOG).  But say you knew it was a ladyboy - that's a step up.  At the extreme gay end you have getting knowingly stuck by men. 

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:33am:

... wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:28am: FriYAY wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:26am: Why do so many young gays kill them selves? Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY” I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way. What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all. :-/ There is a "spectrum of gayness" but I think anybody who feels the need to "experiment" is firmly on the gay side.  With us or against us huh? Bisexuals do exist you know. SOB

I think that's what he meant by spectrum. I think that homophobes are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum.

In that case, should it have made any difference if either or both the guys were gay or otherwise? The key issue was invasion of privacy.

FriYAY wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:36am:

... wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:28am: FriYAY wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:26am: Why do so many young gays kill them selves? Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY” I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way. What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all. :-/ There is a "spectrum of gayness" but I think anybody who feels the need to "experiment" is firmly on the gay side.  Really? You get a couple of young boys, good mates, spend a lot of time together, stay over night, hormones racing, willies going stiff for no reason. I wonder how many would/wouldn’t admit to innocent experimentation growing up? – now you take that and add – YOU’RE BORN GAY. No, I see many getting this born gay message and trying to cope with the confusion of not being or felling gay at all. Just being young and curious. How do you escape?

Can't say I ever felt the need to experiment, but I guess I can see your point.  If the zeitgeist is pushing the "born gay - all or nothing" approach, I guess it'd be confusing for someone who's at a low level on the SOG.  That is why it is so important that this concept be widely introduced, and taught in schools.  I am available for consultancy and speaking arrangements -PM me for booking information. 

... wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:47am:

With us or agains us?  No - that's why I introduced the "spectrum of gayness" (patent pending). Say for example, you unwittingly stuck it to a ladyboy.  That's technically gay, but on the lower end of the spectrum of gayness (SOG).  But say you knew it was a ladyboy - that's a step up.  At the extreme gay end you have getting knowingly stuck by men.

OK. Let's say that somebody played around in prison but were totally straight outside?

- or at a mining camp, but all are now happily married men? (not hypothetical)

From experience, I agree with you that there is a spectrum or continuum. In my various roles I've had reports of it happening.

I kinda agree with your point about the "born gay" label. I've always thought it was a bit of nurture as well as nature.

muso wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:54am:

... wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:47am: With us or agains us?  No - that's why I introduced the "spectrum of gayness" (patent pending). Say for example, you unwittingly stuck it to a ladyboy.  That's technically gay, but on the lower end of the spectrum of gayness (SOG).  But say you knew it was a ladyboy - that's a step up.  At the extreme gay end you have getting knowingly stuck by men.  OK. Let's say that somebody played around in prison but were totally straight outside? - or at a mining camp, but all are now happily married men? (not hypothetical) From experience, I agree with you that there is a spectrum or continuum. In my various roles I've had reports of it happening. I kinda agree with your point about the "born gay" label. I've always thought it was a bit of nurture as well as nature.

I don't think theres any one cause.  We know that exposure to some chemicals can "feminise" males or masculinise females.


Quote:

Curtin University research has established that female marine snails living off the Perth coast are growing male sex organs after exposure to the chemical TBT

http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20101309-21316.html

and we know that child abuse victims identify as gay at a much higher rate than non-abused peers.  The correlation is too strong too ignore as a possible cause.


Quote:

Gay, lesbian and bisexual youth may be at greater risk because they tend to be socially isolated and are easier targets.14,15 In one study, male sexual abuse survivors self-described as homosexual almost seven times, and as bisexual almost six times, more often than nonabused peers.15

http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=410&Itemid=336

The gayness of your examples will be contingent upon a few factors - did they give it or take it?  What were they thinking of, or looking at?  did they close their eyes and think of a supermodel?  did their partner look like a chick or a big hairy stinky male?  The SOG is very complex.

Quote:

and we know that child abuse victims identify as gay at a much higher rate than non-abused peers.  The correlation is too strong too ignore as a possible cause

Correlation=causation is a logical fallacy, no matter how convincing the correlation.

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 9:08pm:

Quote: and we know that child abuse victims identify as gay at a much higher rate than non-abused peers.  The correlation is too strong too ignore as a possible cause Correlation=causation is a logical fallacy, no matter how convincing the correlation.

How do you rule it out as a cause?

What caused this?

http://now.msn.com/now/0522-gay-penguin-egg.aspx


Quote:

After six years of lovingly building a nest together each spring, a pair of male Gentoo penguins named Inca and Rayas finally have an egg to keep in it. According to their keepers at Madrid's Faunia Park, the two are inseparable and have taken to parenting like, well, penguins to water. Inca has adopted the female role of incubating the egg, while partner Rayas watches over his buddy and the little one. Their keepers hope that the donated egg -- and the bub that hatches out of it -- will boost the pair's spirits. In past years, they apparently became rather blue during spring when surrounded by all their friends' newborns.

SOB

I telt ya - the SOG is very complex.  How can anyone identify the cause of that particular case with nothing more than a fluffy article to go by? 

I told you I'm available for consultancy - if you really want to know, my rates are very reasonable.

muso wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 10:48am:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:33am: ... wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:28am: FriYAY wrote on May 23rd, 2012 at 10:26am: Why do so many young gays kill them selves? Could it be that what used to be a bit of innocent experimentation is now “YOU”RE BORN GAY” I often wonder how many young men, after curious experimentation, don’t feel gay but are told they must be gay because you are born that way. What hope would you have, to be told you must be gay, but don’t respond/equate to those feelings at all. :-/ There is a "spectrum of gayness" but I think anybody who feels the need to "experiment" is firmly on the gay side.  With us or against us huh? Bisexuals do exist you know. SOB I think that's what he meant by spectrum. I think that homophobes are somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. In that case, should it have made any difference if either or both the guys were gay or otherwise? The key issue was invasion of privacy.

Right! I see no evidence of gayness having anything to do with the spying or that the suicide did come to that. Maybe the co-kisser was experimenting and decided the gay thing wasn't right for him and the suicide was about a broken heart. Clementi called Ravi's actions, 'wildly inappropriate' which is right of course. But the words don't conjure up images of distraught. They sound to me a calm and measured response.

As usual we have no way fo knowing what went on or why things happened. If Ravi was offered a plea bargain with no jail time, why would the proseution appeal a thirty day sentence with a ten grande fine? Why didn't Tavi accept the offer? All these and other questions will remain a mystery to us :-)