Australian Politics Forum

I was challenged in this thread by Falah to quote Abu directly saying that Muslims may rape women captured in battle:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1335077387/21#21

He has also challenged me many times to quote where the Koran says directly that rape is permitted in various circumstance. Obviously neither Abu nor the Koran will describe it as rape if it is legal. Rather, they redefine rape.

I did however find the section in the common misconceptions thread where Abu 'explains' it. It is easy to miss, because he does such a good job of putting a positive spin on it. If you read the common misconceptions thread with an open mind, you will see that it is not the legality of rape that people are confused about. Rather, non-Muslims mistakenly believe that Islamic rape is a bad thing. Instead, it 'liberates' women and is a 'right' of the rapist. This is how Abu puts it:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225539453/10#10

Quote:

As for the right given by Islam to the owner of a slave-girl to enjoy sexual relations with her, this raises the status of the slave and results in her freedom. This is because the enjoyment of the owner with his slave-girl is like the enjoyment of the husband with his wife, lifting the status of the slave girl to the status of the free wife and gives her a status before her master. In addition, if the slave-girl falls pregnant and bears a child she is freed compulsorily after the death of her master.

Consider the plight of a young girl to whom this might typically apply: you have just seen your parents slaughtered by a Muslim soldier. The soldier sees you. You have just reached puberty and you can see the lust in his eyes as he wipes your parents blood from his monobrow and beard. You fear will will rape you right there in front of your parent's corpses. Praise Allah, Islam forbids such barbaric acts. It also forbids the soldier from having sex with the dead corpse of your parents (unless of course he was permitted to have sex with them when they were alive, which could technically apply to your mother if your father was killed first).

Instead, the soldier takes you home and cares for you and treats you with dignity. And of course he rapes you, over and over again. You may not realise it at the time (as you lack Abu's wisdom) but this is a good thing, as it raises your status almost as high as that of your serial rapist's wife (who he may also rape). If you give birth to a son, you are even granted freedom, but you obviously have to wait until your serial rapist dies, as he needs you to have sex with while he is alive. If you die first, he may continue to have sex with you (but obviously not if you were menstruating at the time of death, as that would be gross).

You get to help your serial rapist raise your children and turn the into good Muslims. You can help him beat them for not praying. This does not last long as your daughters can me married off to an old man before they reach puberty. You get to watch your sons learn to rape and pillage, just like their father.

One sure fire way to avoid being regularly raped is to get a fistula while giving birth. This is still common in many Muslim societies, because the age of consent is puberty and the purpose of sex is breeding more Muslims. If a girl gives birth at a young age, her birth canal can tear through to the bladder and colon. This results in continual seepage of urine and faeces from the vagina. These days it can be treated. Even so, it often goes untreated in Muslim societies for cultural reasons, as it is considered part of the general humiliation of being a woman.

This is not a long forgotten dark past. This is life for many women, even today. It is the future, if Muslims like Abu and Falah get their way.

It's still rape if it's legal. It's still rape if it's actively encouraged.

I've spoken with my husband about this. He believes that slavery was eventually prohibited in Islam and that it was never permitted for people to have sex outside of marriage, slaves or not.

I'd go as far as to say that his moderate views are more representative of educated Muslims and authentic Islam than anything that condones or even encourages rape.

In your link, Abu says:

Quote:

Islam has abolished slavery and there are no situations where slavery would return in a future Khilafah.

Also, in your post you say:

Quote:

You can help him beat them [children] for not praying.

Where does this come from?

Quote:

This is life for many women, even today. It is the future, if Muslims like Abu and Falah get their way.

It is life for many women all over the world. Muslims hardly have a monopoly on abusive practices toward women.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 9:01am:

It is life for many women all over the world. Muslims hardly have a monopoly on abusive practices toward women.

True. They have a monopoly only on abusive practices sanctioned and upheld by Islam.
Other barbarians are condemned as barbarians and they a shamed into change.
WHen you condemn Islamists for their barbarism, they go apesh!t and burn down your embassies and declare jihad.

Soren wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 9:51am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 9:01am:

It is life for many women all over the world. Muslims hardly have a monopoly on abusive practices toward women.

True. They have a monopoly only on abusive practices sanctioned and upheld by Islam.
Other barbarians are condemned as barbarians and they a shamed into change.

That's a bit idealistic. Look at the DRC - not much significant change there as a result of shame. It's the victims who are ostracised and condemned and shamed. They suffer the social opprobrium while rapists are lauded as heroes among their own little groups. And official condemnation is lip service at best - rape is rarely prosecuted successfully in many cultures.

It is always the women that suffer in any kind of societal breakdown - in any culture. Look at the war in the Balkans for a case in point. Vietnam. Nanking.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 10:08am:

Soren wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 9:51am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 9:01am:

It is life for many women all over the world. Muslims hardly have a monopoly on abusive practices toward women.

True. They have a monopoly only on abusive practices sanctioned and upheld by Islam.
Other barbarians are condemned as barbarians and they a shamed into change.

Of course. The men must enjoy being shot, decapitated, dismembered, disembowelled and thrown in mass graves.

Read what I said, Wesley. The things you mention don't happen in every kind of societal breakdown, do they?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 10:27am:

Read what I said, Wesley. The things you mention don't happen in every kind of societal breakdown, do they?

Why you think one half of society suffers while the other half presumably laps it up in a societal breakdown is anyones guess.
~~You'd~~ I'd think all members of that society would suffer, seeing as how they're all in it together.

I don't see the men that are raping women and systematically impregnating them in a drawn out, insidious form of genocide as victims. Do you?

There are times when men suffer because of what happens to them directly and there are times when men suffer on behalf of their women. But I can't think of any conflict or breakdown where the actual or threatened sexual violation of women and children hasn't been a problem. Women suffer what men suffer, with the added bonus of violent sexual abuse.

Think about Katrina and the Asian tsunami for examples unrelated to war.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 10:48am:

Well I dunno what you mean about the tsunami, but Katrina - Roving bands of (race deleted on legal advice) thugs preying on the weak and isolated.

Sounds like the sort of situation where a strong protector would come in handy. Oh - what a shame they're being phased out, in favour of androgynous limp wristed manginas. Still, the instinct to protect is strong, even if they don't recognise it often. How many men got smoked trying to play the role which they should have been equipped for, but weren't as it didn't fit the social enginnering plans? I know it's not as bad, but do you think these wusses would feel good about being unable to protect their loved ones, like great men of yesteryear could? Pretty bloody awful, I'd suspect.

... wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 10:55am:

Katrina - Roving bands of (race deleted on legal advice) thugs preying on the weak and isolated.

Quote:

After a series of sexual assaults were reported by white women volunteers in Common Ground in 2006, participant discourse criminalized the surrounding black community, although almost every accused perpetrator was a nonlocal white man

http://www.bupedu.com/lms/admin/uploded_article/eA.436.pdf

What could a single strong black male protector do against a 'band' of white volunteers intent on raping his wife in a situation where black men were already seen as violent animals?

What could you do in the same situation?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 11:18am:

... wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 10:55am:

Katrina - Roving bands of (race deleted on legal advice) thugs preying on the weak and isolated.

Quote:

One could ask what a lioness could do to protect her cubs against a pair of brother lions intent on killing her cubs?

Answer: Whatever they need to do. You'd be surprised the strength that can be summoned in times of great need. Of course, it helps to have a "baseline" above zero.

Lets look at the costa concordia - lamenting that men didn't give up their places in the lifeboats for women and children, as they automatically did on the titanic 100 years before. When times are good, masculinity is evil, to be stamped out wherever it may lurk, yet when things turn ugly - who ya gonna call?

Everyone should have given up their places for the children. Then the elderly and the poor swimmers etc.

I am a strong swimmer - I would give a spot up for a man who was less capable.

Does that make me a feminazi? Being a strong swimmer, I mean (sorry - crossover from our other discussion).

I certainly don't think a man who is a poor swimmer should risk his life for a woman who is a strong swimmer just because of sex.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 11:31am:

You don't need to - the man will do it willingly, happily, instinctually. So, when male instincts are systematically repressed, you lose the good as well as the bad.

Anyways, this was supposed to be about islamic women or something. I've been sidetracked again.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 9:01am:

In your link, Abu says:

Quote:

Islam has abolished slavery and there are no situations where slavery would return in a future Khilafah.

Have you seen his justification for this conclusion? His argument is that women are never on or near the battlefield these days. Never mind that Islam's enemies have female soldiers and that modern warfare often occurs in urban environments and it tend to be Muslims themselves lobbing rockets from residential buildings.

Also, the historically recent abolition of slavery in the Caliphate just prior to it's demise was in response to external pressure from countries like Great Britain - interference that Abu otherwise complains about.

What really slowed down Islamic slavery was when Muslims stopped winning wars. Rape and pillage go hand in hand in Islam. Of course it didn't actually stop it and it is still rife in the middle east. If Muslims start winning wars again, I am sure they will quickly rediscover the 'need' to take all the females as sex slaves and breed the infidelity out of the infidels.

Quote:

Also, in your post you say:

[quote]You can help him beat them [children] for not praying.

Where does this come from?[/quote]

I think there are links in the wiki. I am pretty sure Abu will confirm this if you ask, though he would obviously spin it differently.

Quote:

It is life for many women all over the world. Muslims hardly have a monopoly on abusive practices toward women.

No, but Islam has a monopoly on turning it into religious law and requiring it to be imposed on everyone.

Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: Musaykah, a slave-girl of some Ansari, came (to the prophet) and said: My master forces me to have sex. Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to sexual service (when they desire chastity)."
[Sunan Abu Dawood]

...And force not your maid servants to sexual service, if they desire chastity...
[The noble Quran, An-Nur v.33]

Quote:

...And force not your maid servants to prostitution, if they desire chastity...

That seems like a very strange qualifier. Can you explain why they put that on the end of both statements?

Falah, do you disagree with Abu about the 'right' of a slave owner?

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 9:24am:

Quote:

...if they desire chastity...

That seems like a very strange qualifier. Can you explain why they put that on the end of both statements?

Seems fairly straight-forward. Does it really need explanation?

If a slave does wants to remain chaste, then the Quran tells us that she should not be forced into sexual service.

So her only options are sexual servitude or chastity?

Does it imply that prostitution is an option if she rejects chastity? Not sure why you went to the trouble of cutting that bit out of the quote.

Quote:

...And force not your maid servants to prostitution, if they desire chastity...

Is Abu wrong about a slave owner's 'right' to rape slaves?

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 11:52am:

So her only options are sexual servitude or chastity?

Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.

"...it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your wealth, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves... Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing."
[Noble Quran, al-Baqarah, v.177]

"The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."
[Bukhari]

Prophet Muhammed, personally freed dozens of enslaved people, and also on many occasions ordered that conquered people not be taken into slavery despite enslavement of conquered peoples being a common practice in ancient society.

"'Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that 'Umar b. Khattab asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe I'tikaf for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe I'tikaf for a day. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free.
[Saheeh al-Muslim]

Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you.
[Noble Quran, an-Noor, v.33]

"Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free.
[Muslim]

Prophet Muhammed's wives also spent their wealth on freeing dozens of slaves.

The first Caliph of the Islamic state, Abu Bakr personally also freed dozens of slaves.

During the Caliphate of the second Calpih, Umar, the Islamic state conquered much of the known world which prompted Umar to order the freeing of thousands of conquered peoples who might otherwise become slaves.

Uthman, the third Caliph of the Islamic state, made a habit of freeing a slave every Friday, and would free slaves when he saw them praying to God.

Islam teaches people not to harm others:

“Whoever causes harm to others subjects himself to harm caused by God.”
[Ibn Majah; Sunan Abu Dawood]

Islam also encourages people to find spouses for slaves so that tey can satisfy their own desires in God-fearing manner.

A slave could become a concubine of her master, or marry someone else, or if remain chaste if she so desired.

Islam teaches people that if they own slaves, then they should treat them well:

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet (God bless him and grant him peace) advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what God has created.' "
[Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari]

The Non-Muslim Perspective:

Quote:

On the attitude of Muslim master with his slaves, Will Durant says,

"...he handled them with a genial humanity that made their lot no worse - perhaps better, as more secure - than that of a factory worker in nineteenth-century Europe."

Source: Hurgronje C., Mohammedanism, (N.Y., 1916), p. 128 as quoted by W. Durant, The Story of Civilization, vol. IV (N.Y., 1950), p. 209.

Quote:

At the end of the 18th century, Mouradgea d'Ohsson (a main source of information for the Western writers on the Ottoman empire) declared:

"There is perhaps no nation where the captives, the slaves, the very toilers in the galleys are better provided for or treated with more kindness than among the Muhammedans."

Source: As quoted in The Encyclopaedia of Islam, vol.I, p. 35.

Quote:

P. L Riviere writes:

"A master was enjoined to make his slave share the bounties he received from God. It must be recognised that, in this respect, the Islamic teaching acknowledged such a respect for human personality and showed a sense of equality which is searched for in vain in ancient civilization"

Source: Riviere P.L., Revue Bleaue (June 1939).

Quote:

Napoleon Bonaparte is recorded as saying about the condition of slaves in Muslim countries:

"The slave inherits his master's property and marries his daughter. The majority of the Pashas had been slaves. Many of the grand viziers, all the Mamelukes, Ali Ben Mourad Beg, had been slaves. They began their lives by performing the most menial services in the houses of their masters and were subsequently raised in status for their merit or by favour. In the West, on the contrary, the slave has always been below the position of the domestic servants; he occupies the lowest rug. The Romans emancipated their slaves, but the emancipated were never considered as equal to the free-born. The ideas of the East and West are so different that it took a long time to make the Egyptians understand that all the army was not composed of slaves belonging to the Sultan al-Kabir."

Source: Cherfils, Bonaparte et l'Islam (Paris, 1914)

Quote:

Annemarie Schimmel writes:

"The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). “

Source: "Islam: An Introduction", p. 67

Quote:

Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.

OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.

Quote:

Islam also encourages people to find spouses for slaves so that tey can satisfy their own desires in God-fearing manner.

A slave could become a concubine of her master, or marry someone else, or if remain chaste if she so desired.

So it is not a 'right' of the slave owner at all? It is completely up to the slave? Does she get any say in who she might marry? For example, could she choose to marry a non-Muslim? What if she was already married when she became a slave?

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Quote:

Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.

OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.

How is it propaganda? I havent heard of muslims having "slaves" ?

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Quote:

Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.

OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.

How is it propaganda? I havent heard of muslims having "slaves" ?

SOB

It is still common in many parts of the middle east today. It is a hangover from the days of the Caliphate. It was outlawed around the time of the demise of the Caliphate, largely due to pressure from Great Britain (the 'foreign interference' that Muslims always complain about). Obviously this did not end slavery as it is so ingrained in the culture and religion.

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 12:38pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 12:35pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Quote:

Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.

OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.

How is it propaganda? I havent heard of muslims having "slaves" ?

SOB

Another one of Freediver's lies. Slavery in virtually non-existent in the Middle East.

Of course blackmarket slavery exists in every country including Australia, Israel and the US.

In fact, the Middle East has one of the lowest blackmarket slavery levels out of any region in the world.

Quote:

In fact, the Middle East has one of the lowest blackmarket slavery levels out of any region in the world.

Because we all know how easy it is to get statistics on the black market, right? Can you give those numbers as a percentage? Or would that make the middle east look bad in comparison to say, the Asia pacific region? Is Islam responsible for the slavery in the asia pacific region?

Does a female slave get any say in who she can marry? Can she marry a non-Muslim?

If she was married when she became a slave, does she remain married to the same man, or does she have to choose between chastity and a Muslim husband?

Was Abu incorrect in claiming that a slave owner has a 'right' to rape slaves?

If Islam does not recognise the need for a wife to consent to sex, how can it do so for a slave, when a slave girl is considered below a wife and con only attain the same level by being raped?

What is the punishment for raping your own slave?

Falah, is a female slave the same as a concubine?

falah wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 10:10am:

Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?

Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed.

In Islam, a concubine is like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic (sariyyah) comes from the word for marriage (sirr).

Abraham and Muhammed treated their concbines like wives.

The verse of the Quran saying that marrying slaves is allowed was revealed after the Islamic state was attacked by the pagans at the Battle of Uhud (interpretation of the meaning):

“...then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[an-Nisaa' v.4]

falah wrote on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 10:51pm:

Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to sexual service (when they desire chastity)."
[Sunan Abu Dawood]

...And force not your maid servants to sexual service, if they desire chastity...
[The noble Quran, An-Nur v.33]

Love that thereupon.
Allah was always on stand-by for Mohammed, always ready to thereupon reveal the needful.
Even Aisha found it suspicious, Allah's readiness to come up just what Mohammed needed, always in the nick of time. Thereupon.
Eternal book, eh?

It's ok to enslave humans,murder them,but it's not ok to have sex with them without their permission...I think?

It's more about the permission of the Muslim establishment. Once you have that consent, you do not need the consent of the person you are raping.

See how religion stuffs everything up?

Australian Politics Forum
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl Member Run Boards >> Islam >> Islam: serial rape liberates women http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1335479654 Message started by freediver on Apr 27^th, 2012 at 8:34am