Lately Abu and Falah have been busy trying to create the impression that Islam does not permit rape. For example by accusing of lying every time I bring this up.

However, in the lengthy debate we have had about whether Islam equates sex and rape, neither Abu nor Falah have contradicted my claim that where Islam permits sex (with your wives and your slaves), it also permits rape.


freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 6:35pm:

Falah, is this now correct? Typical Islamic punishments: Married rapist, 4 witnesses: death by stoning Married adulterer, 4 witnesses: death by stoning Unmarried rapist (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping and a fine Unmarried fornicator (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam) Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam) Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment

An interesting unanswered question:


freediver wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 6:38pm:

Another interesting question - if you refuse to acknowledge the concept of consensual sex as being anything other than sex which Islam permits, how do you define rape?

Here, Falah attempts to argue that unless I can find a passage in the Koran that specifically permits rape, I must be lying about it:


falah wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:03am: abu_rashid wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 9:29am: freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:33am: Like Islam's stance on rape and slavery? fd, you've been answered on these topics several times in the past, your continual niggling for new little discrepancies you *think* you can use against Islam is just pathetic, really. Grow up. It is not a 'discrepancy' Abu. Islam permits rape and sex slavery. And you are incapable of criticising it, or even calling it for what it is, because you cannot bring yourself to criticise Islam. Freediver, don't you get sick of lying? You have made this claim many times, but have yet to demonstrate exactly where Islam permits rape. Provide proof or be proven for the liar that you are.

falah wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 10:03pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 3rd, 2012 at 2:08pm: Muhammad said: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460). He also said: "By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel's saddle" (Ibn Majah 1854). "When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven."... ...SO there is no rape in islam only in so far as there is no refusal of sex by a wife if the husband wants it. You have not given us any verse from the Quran or hadeeth that mentions rape or forced sex. What you have shown is advice that islam gives to women. All you have shown us that Islam advises women that they have a duty to satisfy the sexual needs of their husbands. There is no mention of rape or forced sex.

falah wrote on Mar 3^rd, 2012 at 10:21am:

Freediver you keep lying that Islam promotes rape. Yet you haven't shown me the where the word "rape" or "force" appears in the Quran.

The other strategy - accuse me of lying about it then change the topic and hope no-one notices.


abu_rashid wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:03am: Islam permits rape and sex slavery. And you are incapable of criticising it, or even calling it for what it is, because you cannot bring yourself to criticise Islam. I'm incapable of criticising it, because it's a load of nonsense. But whatever keeps you happy, keep believing your delusions.

falah wrote on Mar 17^th, 2012 at 6:47pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:57pm: Does that make Islam's promotion of rape and slavery look any more decent? Don't you fel ashmed to lie so much? Islam promotes neither slavery nor rape.

falah wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 6:06pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 3:26pm: Quote: "Sex slavery" as is understood in the modern use of the word is not allowed in islam. Yet they are still sex slaves, aren't they? You just rape them to glorify God instead. Apparently this is done in a dignified manner. Don't you ever tire of lying freediver?

falah wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:07am:

In Islam, it is forbidden to force slaves into sexual service (which was common practice in non-Islamic society). In Pre-Islamic Arabia, warriors would rape female captives on the battle field (and this is quite normal for non-Muslim armies as we have seen in Bosnia, or with the 2 million German women gangraped by Soviets after WWII. Islam forbade this evil.

Here is Falah attempting to argue that slavery is like cigarrettes - you can legalise it but still pretend that you 'discourage' it.


falah wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 12:16am:

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:12pm: Quote: Don't you fel ashmed to lie so much? Islam promotes neither slavery nor rape. Do you think that legalising something encourages it? The Australian government has not made smoking cigarettes illegal. Are they encouraging it? [list bull-blueball] In 1945 approximately 72% of Australian men smoked. The rate has been dropping since then. In 2010 only 16.4% of Australian males (14 years or older) were daily smokers. The government has dicouraged smoking whilst not making it illeagal.

Some of the ways in which Muslims 'redefine' the concept of consent - it appears sex is only 'consensual' if God (ie Islamic law) approves. The consent of the woman involved is a mere technicality - that's what a marriage agreement is (even an 'organised' one as called for by Islam), and as far as I can tell there is not even a pretense of obtaining consent from a slave.


falah wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 12:33am:

The only consensual sex recognised in Islam is that which occurs between a man married to a woman. As I said before their are at least three stakeholders involved in any sexual relationaship; the most important one being the Creator, God Almighty. The Creator has only given his consent for his creation to have sex in the confines of marriage. Any other sex is non-consensual.

falah wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:07am:

God, the Creator, is a stakeholder in the activities of his creation. To claim that something that He has forbidden can be consensual, is disrespectful to God.

falah wrote on Mar 5^th, 2012 at 9:39pm:

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:52pm: Quote: Yes, I would like to see the Quranic verse legalising rape. Do you have it or are you just lying like usual? What you are telling me is that a Muslim man may rape and beat his wives and slaves and donkeys. But only if they are disobedient, which makes it OK. You are a liar Freediver. You know I said no such thing. Lying seems to be a big habit of yours. freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:52pm: [quote]When you marry someone, you have a duty to care for them. This includes satisfying their sexual needs. Therefore, if you don't want to have sex with somebody, then you shouldn't marry them. What if you want to have sex with them occasionally, when both of you consent, rather than becoming their sex slave.

Isn't it selfish to deny your partner sex? Afterall sex doesn't cost you anything.


freediver wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 9:52pm:

is that just western nonsense, like falling in love before you get married?

You mean try before you buy? Yes that is nonsense, and it is not what God wants from human beings. Non-marital sex is one of the reasons that there is so much AIDS in the world today, as well as herpes, gonnorhea, syphilis, hpv, etc.

Freediver do you like for your sister to be fornicated? How about your mother? Your sister?

It would be hypocritical of you to do it to someone else's mother/daughter/sister if you didn't like it for your own family.[/quote]

falah wrote on Feb 4^th, 2012 at 11:11am:

freediver wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:16am: OK Falah, can you explain whether a husband has to get his wife's permission to have sex with her? Why would a woman marry a man who she did not want to have sex with? Doesn't make sense?

on the issue of consent from a slave:


falah wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 11:49am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am: Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam? Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed. In Islam, a concubine is like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic (sariyyah) comes from the word for marriage (sirr). Abraham and Muhammed treated their concbines like wives. The verse of the Quran saying that marrying slaves is allowed was revealed after the Islamic state was attacked by the pagans at the Battle of Uhud (interpretation of the meaning): “...then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice” [an-Nisaa' v.4]

---

So anyway - here is a simple request for a straight answer from the Muslims here - does Islam permit rape in the situations I listed above?

Please do not ask me to prove that Islam permits rape, or accuse me of lying then change the subject as if nothing needs explaining here, or try to invent a different meaning for rape or consent - speak English and use the English meaning for rape and consent.

freediver wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 10:37pm:

falah wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:11am: freediver wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:16am: OK Falah, can you explain whether a husband has to get his wife's permission to have sex with her? Why would a woman marry a man who she did not want to have sex with? Doesn't make sense?

Actually it does make sense.  Just because you marry someone, it doesn't follow that you would want to have sex with him at any time of the day or night.  And that comment by falah seems to assume that a woman marries a man because she loves him and remains in love with him for the rest of their lives together.  What if the man is unfaithful?  Can you imagine a woman wanting to have sex with her husband if he had been having sex with another woman a few hours earlier?  What if her husband beats her?  Would she really want to be intimate with him?  And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it?  Not everyone feels like having sex at the drop of a hat.

I'd like to know if Islam permits rap.

After all, they're not singing, they're talking. Does it count as music?

Frances wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:26pm:

What if the man is unfaithful?

In such a case, the woman should get a divorce. Islam actually considers an accusation of adultery as a divorce.


Frances wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:26pm:

What if her husband beats her?  Would she really want to be intimate with him?

If a husband abuses his wife, and she feels strongly about it, then she can get a divorce.

I would think that divorce would be a possibility but divorces can take some time to finalise (unless they happen unusually quickly in the Islamic world).  Would she have to have sex with him whenever he wanted until the divorce was finalised?

And what if the woman did not avail herself of the opportunity of a divorce because she had no money and nowhere to go?

Frances wrote on Mar 18^th, 2012 at 11:26pm:

What if the man is unfaithful? A muslim man can have 4 wives, sex with slaves is halal so how can he be unfaithful when Allah allows this.  Can you imagine a woman wanting to have sex with her husband if he had been having sex with another woman a few hours earlier? According to Islam the woman must put out  if the husband desires a bit,she has to stop cooking-cleaning if he wants sex What if her husband beats her? Wife beating is not a crime in Islam,there is no such concept as domestic violence in Islam that is a concept that came from the west. Allah the most merciful allows wife beating if you fear disobedience, sura 4:34 will explain womens rights in Islam http://quran.com/4/34 Read all translations.   And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it? Bad luck

Frances wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 9:53am:

I would think that divorce would be a possibility but divorces can take some time to finalise (unless they happen unusually quickly in the Islamic world).

Frances wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 9:53am:

And what if the woman did not avail herself of the opportunity of a divorce because she had no money and nowhere to go?

That wold be her choice. You could argue the same for a prostitue, should she give up her trade and possibly face poverty?

In Islam husbands have to provide short term maintenance for the wife, long term maintenance or any children, and ar also encouraged to give an extra financial gift to ease the the difficulty for the divorced wife.

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 10:15am:

Quote: What if her husband beats her? Wife beating is not a crime in Islam,there is no such concept as domestic violence in Islam that is a concept that came from the west. Allah the most merciful allows wife beating if you fear disobedience, sura 4:34 will explain womens rights in Islam http://quran.com/4/34 Read all translations.

The beating is considered a last resort in he case of a rebellious wife, and requires leaving the marital bed beforehand. So obviously, it is not a tool to force women to have sex, because a condition for beaing the wife is to leave the marital bed.

It is a last resort, and there are many hadeeth demonstrating that Prophet Muhammed, God's peace & blessings upon him, discouraged people from beating their wives. He absoultely forbid anyone to hit the face. He also said warned that any beating must be gentle. His companions explained that if someone beat hs wife, he should only do so with a tootbrush made from a twig - which oviously would not cause any injury.

 
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 10:15am:

Quote: And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it? Bad luck

If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so.

However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.

On the contrary,

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness...live with them honourably...
[Quran, an-Nisaa, v.19]


And among His (God's) signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find serenity in them, and He has ordained between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect.
[Quran, ar-Rum, v.31]


...And force not your female slaves into sexual service, if they desire chastity...

[Quran an-Noor, v.33]



On many occasions he said: "I commend you to be good to women"

He also said:

‘Treat women well. Women were created from a rib. The most crooked part of the rib is the top part. If you try to straighten it, you will break it. If you leave it, it remains crooked. So treat women well.’ (Bukhari & Muslim)


‘The most perfect of believers in belief is one who is best of them in character. The best of you are those who are the best to their women." (Tirmidhi)



Now let us contrast this to the Bible


Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "...They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
[Numbers 31:7-18]


If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
[Deuteronomy 22:28-29]


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.   (Exodus 21:7-11

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
[Deuteronomy 21:10-14]

falah wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 10:54am:

If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this? If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so. However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.

I don't think you can compare a man going to work to provide for his family with a woman opening up her legs so her husband can have sex with her.  The former is satisfying essential needs without which the family would suffer, the latter is, if the woman does not want to have sex at that point in time, solely about satisfying the sexual desires of one person, the man.  From the third sentence I have quoted though, I get the feeling that saying no on the odd occasion would be considered acceptable, as long as she didn't refuse too often.

Me?  As much as I enjoy sex, there have been times that I have not felt like it and I have said so.  If the husband has any feelings for the wife, he respects that request, and leaves it until another day.  Sex is an intimate act between two people and is not just about satisfying the sexual impulses of a man.  There needs to be love and compassion between both parties.  If the man has neither love nor compassion for the woman, he may as well just use his right hand instead....

Quote:

In such a case, the woman should get a divorce. Islam actually considers an accusation of adultery as a divorce

So instead of 'no means no', in Islam it is 'you cheated on me means no' - and the (now ex-) husband then risks being stoned to death if he continues raping his wife?


Quote:

If a husband abuses his wife, and she feels strongly about it, then she can get a divorce.

If he beats and rapes his wife, and she responds with divorce, can she seek further punishment in court?


Quote:

The beating is considered a last resort in he case of a rebellious wife, and requires leaving the marital bed beforehand. So obviously, it is not a tool to force women to have sex, because a condition for beaing the wife is to leave the marital bed.

Is that the only place Muslims are allowed to have sex?


Quote:

If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

Actually we do Falah. At least, we do not force people to work the way Muslims can force women to have sex.


Quote:

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so

In other words, rape is permitted, because the wrong is in refusing to have sex?


Quote:

However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.

Is there anything to suggest it is not permitted? Is this just a way to pretend rape is forbidden when it is not?


Quote:

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will

Can you explain how this fits in with the Islamic concept of enslaving women? Is this a contradiction?


Quote:

...And force not your female slaves into sexual service, if they desire chastity...

Can you clarify whether this means having sex with other people, or their owner? Also, what is the punishment? Or is this something that is merely 'discouraged'?

Also, does it imply that the only option open to a slave is chastity or being raped by her owner? Are slaves allowed to have sex with each other? Is it 'open season' for the owner once she has lost her virginity?

Can you explain why, in the other thread, you said that being raped reduces the price of a slave?

falah wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 10:54am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:15am: Quote: What if her husband beats her? Wife beating is not a crime in Islam,there is no such concept as domestic violence in Islam that is a concept that came from the west. Allah the most merciful allows wife beating if you fear disobedience, sura 4:34 will explain womens rights in Islam http://quran.com/4/34 Read all translations. The beating is considered a last resort in he case of a rebellious wife, and requires leaving the marital bed beforehand. So obviously, it is not a tool to force women to have sex, because a condition for beaing the wife is to leave the marital bed. So allah the most merciful does allow wife beating. Banishing them to beds apart does work when you have 4 wives. So what is the purpose of this divinely sanctioned wife beating? It is a last resort, and there are many hadeeth demonstrating that Prophet Muhammed, God's peace & blessings upon him, discouraged people from beating their wives.There is a hadith where Aisha said Mo hit her and it hurt He absoultely forbid anyone to hit the face. He also said warned that any beating must be gentle. His companions explained that if someone beat hs wife, he should only do so with a tootbrush made from a twig - which oviously would not cause any injury. There is no mention of a miswak in sura 4.34,in fact there is nothing about how hard you can hit your wife.   Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:15am: [quote] And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it? Bad luck

If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so.
How has she wronged him by not wanting to have sex?

However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.
What about the sex slave threads?
Does a slave have the right to say NO?
Does the wife have the right to say NO?



[/quote]

falah wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 7:43pm:

Frances wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:43pm: Sounds similar to what happens to  “those whom one's right hand possesses” Frances, the rabbi is saying that Jews can rape  women on the battlefield. There is nothing like this in Islam.

Falah don't you think it is a bit deceptive to claim that Islamic rape is nothing like this, when the only difference is that Muslims have to drag the women off the battlefield first so they can be raped in a dignified manner?

Frances wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 12:17pm:

I don't think you can compare a man going to work to provide for his family with a woman opening up her legs so her husband can have sex with her. The former is satisfying essential needs without which the family would suffer, the latter is, if the woman does not want to have sex at that point in time, solely about satisfying the sexual desires of one person, the man.

Fulfilment of sexual needs are very important to maintaining a harmonious society. To dismiss them as merely being a casual want is not really an accurate picture.


Frances wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 12:17pm:

Me?  As much as I enjoy sex

More information than we really needed to know.


Frances wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 12:17pm:

If the husband has any feelings for the wife, he respects that request, and leaves it until another day.

Agreed. But likewise if the other partner has any feelings for the one who needs to be satisfied, then they'd probably just do it for them anyway. It goes both ways.


Frances wrote on Mar 19^th, 2012 at 12:17pm:

Sex is an intimate act between two people and is not just about satisfying the sexual impulses of a man.  There needs to be love and compassion between both parties..

Yes, forcing someone would seem to detract from the meaningfulness of it somewhat.

Quote:

Fulfilment of sexual needs are very important to maintaining a harmonious society. To dismiss them as merely being a casual want is not really an accurate picture.

How does that work with the one man, four wives thing? Didn't you once claim that many men are not good enough to 'deserve' a wife? I think you or Falah also described marriage as a right that is even extended to slaves.

Are the leftover men supposed to go off to war and either get killed or bring back a few slave girls? Many academics credit Islam's view on marriage, sex etc with the dysfunction seen in so many modern Islamic societies.


Quote:

Yes, forcing someone would seem to detract from the meaningfulness of it somewhat.

But not enough to actually punish the husband/slave owner for rape?

Whereever there is a group of ppl with no rights who are seen as chattel rape is permitted because those ppl dont matter. Xtianity permits rape also. Prolly most religions because those books were written in a time when slavery was commonplace and women were belongings.

SOB

Christianity is not a legal and political system. Our society achieved separation of church and state without destroying the church.

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 8:57am:

Christianity is not a legal and political system. Our society achieved separation of church and state without destroying the church.

Not completely. Still no gay marriage and other things.

Some muslim countries have secular govts too. the ppl in the govts may be mostly muslims (but thats same here isnt it). Islam isnt a political system either.

Anyway you are just saying that because you disagreed with me in another thread about something. Back to the topic. Rape.

My point stands whether its a political or religious system. Like i said in the past slavery was commonplace and ppl were chattel. Not very long ago women were belongings in australia (and still on the books in ACT is a law that if your wife leaves you can go and get her and bring her back).

Our laws were made by xtians.

SOB

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 9:35am:

Some muslim countries have secular govts too. the ppl in the govts may be mostly muslims (but thats same here isnt it). Islam isnt a political system either. Islam is a poitical system it governs in Iran, the caliphate shows Islam has the concept of a supreme leader and i will suggest political Islam is right wing fascism that executes critics. Indonesia is a democracy. Anyway you are just saying that because you disagreed with me in another thread about something. Back to the topic. Rape. My point stands whether its a political or religious system. Like i said in the past slavery was commonplace and ppl were chattel. Not very long ago women were belongings in australia (and still on the books in ACT is a law that if your wife leaves you can go and get her and bring her back). Cyrus the great abolished slavery around 530BC, did it return when those Taazi camel jockeys invaded from Arabia? Mohammad had a coptic christian sex slave, its good to be the profit. Women were not considered belongings in my lifetime, my great grandmother was one of the first ladies to own a car in Australia. Our laws were made by xtians. Our constitution forbids religious laws. SOB

Does SOB = Son of Bitch?

Back to the topic-


Quote:

Only last year ,Amina's parents filed charges against their daughters rapist who was 10 ears older than the teenager,The Judge in the Morrocan city of Tangier,concluded that rather than  punishing him,the two must marry http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/11149/killed-twice-marrying-the-man-who-raped-her/ Artile 475 of the penal code allows the rapist to marry an underage victim to preserve the honour of the womans life.

Does anyone else think it is retarded to make a rape victim marry their rapist?

Quote:

Not completely. Still no gay marriage and other things

.

Separation of chruch and state is not the same as ridding our law of religious influence. There are plenty of atheists who oppose gay marriage too. Gay marriage laws alone do not tell you anything at all about separation of church and state.


Quote:

Some muslim countries have secular govts too.

This does not mean Islam tolerates secular governments - merely that Islam is an impotent force.


Quote:

Islam isnt a political system either.

Have you ever asked a Muslim about that?


Quote:

Anyway you are just saying that because you disagreed with me in another thread about something.

I am saying it because it is true.


Quote:

My point stands whether its a political or religious system. Like i said in the past slavery was commonplace and ppl were chattel.

What is your point - the simple fact that making people chattels has bad consequences?

Does Islam permit rape?





Recorded behaviour of Mohammed, endorsed as an example for moslems to follow.....



Quote:

What Would Muhammad Do? Have sex with a 9-year-old girl? Advocate beheading? Require women to cover their faces? Own slaves? Marry his daughter-in-law? Approve of prostitution? Gluttonize? Recommend wife-beating? Hit his own wife? Kill prisoners of war? Advocate suicide attacks? Kill apostates? Beat children who don't pray? Have boys as young as 13-years-old beheaded? Approve of Sex with Minors? Lie? Enslave women and children? Torture a man out of greed? Steal? Kill someone for insulting him? Extort money from other religions? Keep women as sex slaves? Force conversions to Islam? Commit acts of terror? Kill a woman? Capture a woman and rape her? Encourage the rape of women in front of their husbands?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/WWMD.htm


ISLAMIC texts cited, at the link above, endorsing the example set by Mohammed.







Want to please Allah ???

FOLLOW THE EXAMPLE OF MOHAMMED.

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. "
Koran 33.021

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 9:35am: Some muslim countries have secular govts too. the ppl in the govts may be mostly muslims (but thats same here isnt it). Islam isnt a political system either. Islam is a poitical system it governs in Iran, the caliphate shows Islam has the concept of a supreme leader and i will suggest political Islam is right wing fascism that executes critics. Indonesia is a democracy. Anyway you are just saying that because you disagreed with me in another thread about something. Back to the topic. Rape. My point stands whether its a political or religious system. Like i said in the past slavery was commonplace and ppl were chattel. Not very long ago women were belongings in australia (and still on the books in ACT is a law that if your wife leaves you can go and get her and bring her back). Cyrus the great abolished slavery around 530BC, did it return when those Taazi camel jockeys invaded from Arabia? Mohammad had a coptic christian sex slave, its good to be the profit. Women were not considered belongings in my lifetime, my great grandmother was one of the first ladies to own a car in Australia. Our laws were made by xtians. Our constitution forbids religious laws. SOB Does SOB = Son of Bitch? Back to the topic- Quote: Only last year ,Amina's parents filed charges against their daughters rapist who was 10 ears older than the teenager,The Judge in the Morrocan city of Tangier,concluded that rather than  punishing him,the two must marry http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/11149/killed-twice-marrying-the-man-who-raped-her/ Artile 475 of the penal code allows the rapist to marry an underage victim to preserve the honour of the womans life. Does anyone else think it is retarded to make a rape victim marry their rapist?

"Our constitution forbids religious laws."

But they were influences by religion when they were made.

"Does SOB = Son of Bitch?"

OMG! Thats so original! However did you think of it? Wow!

"Does anyone else think it is retarded to make a rape victim marry their rapist?"

Of course its retarded.

The thing is my post was about why this stuff happens and how it isnt just the muslim book that condones it. Nowadays xtians pretty much know these things are wrong and have to use doublethink and other mindgames to justify it being condoned in thier book but they pretty much know its wrong.

SOB

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 8:57am:

Christianity is not a legal and political system. Our society achieved separation of church and state without destroying the church.

Proud of disobeying God? Your arrogance knows no bounds.

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 12:44pm:

Does anyone else think it is retarded to make a rape victim marry their rapist?

It is well established that Morocco is not ruled by islamic law.

Islamic scholars spoke out against this judgement, and stated that what the judge ordered in Morocco has nothing to do with Islam.



Quote:

The Arabic word ightisaab refers to taking something wrongfully by force. It is now used exclusively to refer to transgression against the honour of women by force (rape)[ in the Arabic language]. This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden in all religions and in the minds of all wise people and those who are possessed of sound human nature. All earthly systems and laws regard this action as abhorrent and impose the strictest penalties on it, except a few states which waive the punishment if the rapist marries his victim! This is indicative of a distorted mind let alone a lack of religious commitment on the part of those who challenge God in making laws. We do not know of any love or compassion that could exist between the aggressor and his victim, especially since the pain of rape cannot be erased with the passage of time – as it is said. Hence many victims of rape have attempted to commit suicide and many of them have succeeded, The failure of these marriages is proven and they are accompanied by nothing but humiliation and suffering for the woman. http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338

falah wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 8:00pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 8:57am: Christianity is not a legal and political system. Our society achieved separation of church and state without destroying the church. Proud of disobeying God? Your arrogance knows no bounds.

I'm just saying how it is Falah.

falah wrote on May 5^th, 2012 at 2:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 2:08pm: How about your response to my question about the Islamic punishment for raping a slave? You are the Muslim. Why are you asking me to tell you what Islamic law is? Can you explain why you are obsessed with a non-existent Islamic permission to rape, while you totally ignore the Israeli army rabbi saying that Jews can rape?

Falah, what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave?

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2012 at 2:17pm:

falah wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 2:11pm: freediver wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 2:08pm: How about your response to my question about the Islamic punishment for raping a slave? You are the Muslim. Why are you asking me to tell you what Islamic law is? Can you explain why you are obsessed with a non-existent Islamic permission to rape, while you totally ignore the Israeli army rabbi saying that Jews can rape? Falah, what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave?

And whosoever disobeys God and His Messenger, and transgresses His limits, He will cast him into the Fire, to abide therein; and he shall have a disgraceful torment...Forbidden it is to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them (women) with harshness...live with them (women) on a footing of kindness...
[The Quran, an-Nisaa (the Women), v.14-9]


And among His (God's) signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find serenity in them, and He has ordained between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect.
[Quran, ar-Rum, v.31]


...And force not your female slaves into sexual service, if they desire chastity...
[Quran an-Noor, v.33]



On many occasions Prophet Muhammed said: "I commend you to be good to women"

He also said:

‘Treat women well! (Bukhari & Muslim)


‘The most perfect of believers in belief is one who is best of them in character. The best of you are those who are the best to their women." (Tirmidhi)



Now let us contrast this to the Bible which encourages actually encourages rape and murder of women:


Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "...They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
[Numbers 31:7-18]


If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
[Deuteronomy 22:28-29]


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.   (Exodus 21:7-11

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
[Deuteronomy 21:10-14][/quote]

Falah, what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave?


Quote:

He will cast him into the Fire

Does this mean burning them at the stake?

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2012 at 2:41pm:

Falah, what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave?

Freeliar what is the proper Biblical punishment for raping your wife?

A rather more pertinent question considering that Catholics are not even allowed to get divorced.

Islam encourages 13 year old rape victims to be stoned to death and to ignore her cries for help.

This is why we fight these animals.

Avram Horowitz wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 1:52pm:

Islam encourages 13 year old rape victims to be stoned to death and to ignore her cries for help.

That is a lie.

But the Jewish Talmud does encourage the raping of 3 year-old girls doesn't it Avram?

falah wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 1:28pm:

freediver wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 2:41pm: Falah, what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave? Freeliar what is the proper Biblical punishment for raping your wife? A rather more pertinent question considering that Catholics are not even allowed to get divorced.

I don't know Falah, nor do I really care.

What makes the question pertinent is whether someone is promoting religious law as being relevant today. I have only ever encountered Muslims doing that. Are you suggesting you reject the concept of Islamic law and would oppose it's implementation in the future?

Otherwise, we might as well keep playing the game of "get a straight answer from the Muslim". So what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave? Should they be burned at the stake?

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 2:36pm:

falah wrote on May 6th, 2012 at 1:28pm: freediver wrote on May 5th, 2012 at 2:41pm: Falah, what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave? Freeliar what is the proper Biblical punishment for raping your wife? A rather more pertinent question considering that Catholics are not even allowed to get divorced. I don't know Falah, nor do I really care. What makes the question pertinent is whether someone is promoting religious law as being relevant today. I have only ever encountered Muslims doing that. Are you suggesting you reject the concept of Islamic law and would oppose it's implementation in the future? Otherwise, we might as well keep playing the game of "get a straight answer from the Muslim". So what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave? Should they be burned at the stake?

Freeliar, can a wife be raped when she has the option of divorce? Why would a woman remain married to a man she did not want to have sex with?

Quote:

Freeliar, can a wife be raped when she has the option of divorce?

Yes Abu, of course she can. Do you need me to draw you a picture? Are you suggesting it is impossible?


Quote:

Why would a woman remain married to a man she did not want to have sex with?

I have never pretended to understand women. Do you?

So what is the proper Islamic punishment for raping your wife? Or your slave? Should they be burned at the stake?

freediver wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 2:50pm:

Quote: Freeliar, can a wife be raped when she has the option of divorce? Yes Abu, of course she can. Do you need me to draw you a picture? Are you suggesting it is impossible?[quote]

Seriously? It defies common sense. A woman could choose to be divorced, yet remains married to a man she does not want to have sex with?

Is that logical?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

I am not Abu. Have not even met Abu apart from internet.

Quote:

Seriously? It defies common sense. A woman could choose to be divorced, yet remains married to a man she does not want to have sex with? Is that logical?

So if she says 'I divorce you' before the husband rapes her, that means it is rape and she can get him stoned to death?

But if she fails to say the magic words prior to the rape then it is illogical to call it rape?

falah wrote on May 6^th, 2012 at 4:21pm:

Seriously? It defies common sense. A woman could choose to be divorced, yet remains married to a man she does not want to have sex with? Is that logical?

Does it say in the quran or hadith that a woman must remain with her husband for 3 menses after a divorce in case she is pregnant?

Why does she have to wait 3 months when the first period is evidence that she is not pregnant?

Why does the imam tell the woman to reconcile if the husband does not want a divorce?

Do you agree with current Islamic thought that it is halal for men  to divorce their wives by text message?

falah wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 8:09pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 26th, 2012 at 12:44pm: Does anyone else think it is retarded to make a rape victim marry their rapist? It is well established that Morocco is not ruled by islamic law. Islamic scholars spoke out against this judgement, and stated that what the judge ordered in Morocco has nothing to do with Islam. Quote: The Arabic word ightisaab refers to taking something wrongfully by force. It is now used exclusively to refer to transgression against the honour of women by force (rape)[ in the Arabic language]. This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden in all religions and in the minds of all wise people and those who are possessed of sound human nature. All earthly systems and laws regard this action as abhorrent and impose the strictest penalties on it, except a few states which waive the punishment if the rapist marries his victim! This is indicative of a distorted mind let alone a lack of religious commitment on the part of those who challenge God in making laws. We do not know of any love or compassion that could exist between the aggressor and his victim, especially since the pain of rape cannot be erased with the passage of time – as it is said. Hence many victims of rape have attempted to commit suicide and many of them have succeeded, The failure of these marriages is proven and they are accompanied by nothing but humiliation and suffering for the woman. http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338

You are a bit selective in cherry picking what parts you want to quote falah.

From your same link-

Quote:

The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for zina, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married and 100 lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married. Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a mahr to the woman. http://islamqa.info/en/ref/72338/rape

Is a "mahr" a dowry falah?

Do you think 100 lashes is a pissweak penalty for an unmarried rapist falah?

If the punishment for rape is the same as the punishment for zina does that mean the same standards for proof apply?

You'll notice that the punishment for rape is pretty much identical to the punishment for consensual sex. If the rapist is married - stoning to death (same as for adultery). If the rapist is unmarried - whipping etc (same as for fornication. If you rape your wife or slave - no punishment, because you are allowed to have sex with them. So other than the standard of evidence required, the consent of the woman is meaningless. You are punished (or not) for sex, regardless of what the woman's opinion was.

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2012 at 7:41pm:

You'll notice that the punishment for rape is pretty much identical to the punishment for consensual sex. If the rapist is married - stoning to death (same as for adultery). If the rapist is unmarried - whipping etc (same as for fornication. If you rape your wife or slave - no punishment, because you are allowed to have sex with them. So other than the standard of evidence required, the consent of the woman is meaningless. You are punished (or not) for sex, regardless of what the woman's opinion was.

I think they should adopt cannon law and just let rapists go free and continue raping

http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/res/586.$plit/C_71_article_1493255_image_list_image_list_item_0_image.jpg

(AGI) London - Nine men of Pakistani origin are accused of having raped 631 teenage girls from youth shelters over the past five years, the Times of London reports, explaining that on Tuesday the rapists were all found guilty of sexual violence by a court in Liverpool. The victims, writes the Times, were drawn from centers, drugged or made drunk and taken to apartments, pubs and clubs with the complicity of the taxi driver to Greater Manchester, in Lancashire, and West Yorkshire where they were systematically raped. Two of the girls from shelters in Manchester and Rochdale died because of the violence.

According to the Times investigations verified that the youth shelters, which have over 1,800 teenagers, registered 631 cases of girls between the ages of 12 and 16 being used for sexual purposes, of which 187 in the last ten months alone. The trial, which saw nine men between 22 and 59-years of age sentenced, among whom eight were of Pakistani origin and one Afghan exile, out of a total of 26 arrests and 56 questioned, revealed that many cases could have been avoided if the police had not ignored a complaint made in 2008 by a social services employee who spoke of "clear evidence of sexual exploitation organized in youth centers."

At the same time, a complaint by a 15-year-old girl claiming to have been raped by ten men was considered not reliable by the police. The behavior forced the Manchester police and Rochdale social services to publicly apologize for mistakes that "delivered children into the hands of rapists." .

Why did this story make the news?

Vulnerable girls are being exploited in an epidemic in the UK, yet this story was made a big deal of because of the ethnicity of the perpetrators.

Sexual exploitation rampant in NIreland

Vulnerable children as young as 10 in Northern Ireland are being sexually exploited in the same way as the girls in the notorious Rochdale grooming case, a leading charity has said.


Last week nine men who ran a child sexual exploitation ring in the Lancashire town were jailed for plying youngsters as young as 13 with drink and drugs, so they could “pass them around” for sex.

Judge Gerald Clifton said the men treated the girls “as though they were worthless and beyond respect”.

Jacqui Montgomery-Devlin, manager of Barnardo’s Safe Choices, told the Belfast Telegraph sexual exploitation is happening in “every town and city across Northern Ireland”.

She explained most of the girls she deals with are aged between 12 and 16 - with the youngest so far being just 10 years old.

“Party houses are dominant scenes for sexually exploited girls,” Ms Montgomery-Devlin said.

“They are invited to houses, given drugs and alcohol, and then return home or to care homes intoxicated or under the influence of substances.

“Sometimes they ring and don’t know where they are. They often ask for the morning after pill.”

Ms Montgomery-Devlin said “fear is a huge factor” for the children being exploited.

She added: “One girl said: ‘If I don’t go back they will only rape me anyway, so I might as well go’.

“They are threatened with being killed. Whether the men would
go through with this is irrelevant. The young person believes it.”

Late last year research from Barnardo’s revealed two-thirds of girls in care homes here are at risk of being sexually exploited.

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2012/05/14/241206/sexual-exploitation/

Muslims take a very dim few of some rapes:

'Donkey rape' sparks tribal massacre in Yemen
By Staff
Published Monday, May 21, 2012


Fifteen people were killed or injured in tribal fighting in Yemen after a male donkey chased an ass and raped it just near the house of its owner.

Newspapers in Yemen said the owner of the ass got mad after he saw the donkey attacking his animal, prompting him to chase the donkey and hit it.

The attack infuriated the donkey owner, who called his armed tribe men and asked them to take revenge.

“The problem snowballed into an armed fight between Makabis tribe, which owns the donkey, and Bani Abbas which owns the ass…15 people were either killed or injured in the battle,” the Saudi Arabic language daily Aleqtisadiah said, quoting newspapers in Yemen.

A large police force intervened and stopped the fighting at a village in the southwestern province of Abb, newspapers said, adding that police had arrested eight persons involved in the conflict.

http://www.emirates247.com/crime/region/donkey-rape-sparks-tribal-massacre-in-yemen-2012-05-21-1.459649


A case of 'git yer donkey orf mah ass'.

Islam and the issue of exploiting minors

Over the past few days, Britain has been preoccupied with the prosecution and imprisonment of nine Muslim men (eight Pakistanis and one Afghani) on charges of being part of a child sex exploitation ring. Much has been said about the religious and ethnic background of the defendants, not to mention their victims, who were all white minors suffering from social problems, to the point that all issues became tangled up and intertwined; criminal considerations, religious and ethnic backgrounds and racial sensitivities. The result was heated discussions that mostly inclined towards unfair generalization, the promotion of a stereotyped image of Islam and false accusations against it.

Islam is a religion that is embraced by over 1.5 billion Muslims around the globe, approximately 2.8 million of whom live in Britain. Islam is Britain’s second largest religion, and Muslims make up nearly 5 percent of the country’s population. Of course, there were some rational and balanced discussions of this case; however this all went out the window amidst the clamorous voices that highlighted the religious and racial features of a purely criminal case in which the defendants are a small handful of people who represent only themselves and their own deviant behavior.

This climate served as the perfect opportunity for racists to exploit, and so some movements staged anti-Muslim and anti-immigration demonstrations in which they raised slogans like ‘No to Islam’, ‘Protect our Children…Expel the Rapists’ and ‘Our Children are not Halal Meat’, in a reference to the sale of halal meat to Muslims. Such movements are now active in numerous Western states, and they are exploiting the financial and economic crises as well as the widespread negative image of Islam since the 9/11 attacks and the subsequent terrorist operations, including – of course – the 7 July, 2005 tube bombings in London. This image has contributed to feeding the negative climate which has produced laws banning the niqab and hijab, as well as the construction of minarets in some Western capitals, provoking extremist violence as was the case with the crimes of Anders Behring Breivik in Norway.

The grave problem is that this climate is being strengthened by the statements that are issued by some politicians or so-called specialists, not to mention the superficial articles which promote stereotypical, mistaken, ignorant or sometimes malicious images of Islam and Muslims. In addition to this, there are also some press reports that intend to provoke public opinion or controversy by publishing some defamatory images. For example, a television report screened during the trial session of the nine defendants who were prosecuted on charges of rape, sexual assault and trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation, amongst other crimes, showed the defendants standing in front of a mosque.

This represents a dangerous suggestion linking these terrible crimes with Islam, particularly as these defendants were not religious and their crimes were committed in Asian restaurants or empty houses and apartments, nowhere in the vicinity of a mosque! The comparison is truly scandalous when compared with the manner in which crimes involving the sexual abuse of children inside churches at the hands of priests are dealt with, for despite the noise and controversy surrounding such scandals, we have never heard anybody linking this to Christianity as a religion or to the priests’ ethnic background. It is true that there were discussions about deviations within the church, and there were calls for the Catholic Church and others to put an end this phenomenon and uncover its perpetrators, yet no one saw this as something implicating Christianity as a whole or as something that raises moral or ethical questions about all Christians.

The crime of sexual assaulting children deserves the strongest condemnation, regardless of the identity of the perpetrators, their ethnic background or religious affiliation, and this is something that is not confined to individuals of Pakistani or Muslim descent. Statistics and reports prepared by specialists stress that...most sexual crimes against minors are committed by ‘white men’. This is how the majority of media outlets used this term in their reports, rather than saying ‘White Christians’, for example, in the same manner that the Pakistanis were described as ‘Asian Muslims.’

One of the striking examples of intentionally linking Islam with the issue of sexual exploitation of children can be seen in an article published by the British Times newspaper last Thursday entitled ‘Let’s be honest. There’s a clear link with Islam’. The title clearly demonstrates that there is an intention to target Islam, distort its image and use the crimes and deviation of a tiny minority to put forward a negative image of all Muslims. Columnist and Jewish writer David Aaronovitch selectively chose statements that present a negative image of Islam and Muslims in this article, focusing on the defendants’ religion and their Pakistani roots as well as attacking the defendants’ ‘inferior culture’ regarding the treatment of women.

Such analysis removes this case from the criminal realm where these defendants have been tried for their crimes and instead make the issue appear antagonistic towards anything related to Muslims and Islam. This is because this particular issue, by deviating towards such a viewpoint, is not in the interests of the victims and instead directs attention away from the search for the true reasons that allowed these deviants to sexually exploit minors. Many specialists have indicated that minors with social or family problems are often targeted by such criminals, for their circumstances marks them out as easy prey, and this has nothing to do with their complexion. In addition, crimes such as this are not committed exclusively by individuals of a certain religion or race, but are committed by men from different categories, religions and races...

...some people find it easy to abuse Islam and defame Muslims because of the deviant behavior of a small minority, the likes of which exist in any religion.

http://english.alarabiya.net/views/2012/05/20/215224.html

Falah it's not like you to post about Islam here.


Quote:

In addition to this, there are also some press reports that intend to provoke public opinion or controversy by publishing some defamatory images. For example, a television report screened during the trial session of the nine defendants who were prosecuted on charges of rape, sexual assault and trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation, amongst other crimes, showed the defendants standing in front of a mosque.

How is this defamatory? Are you suggesting the association with Islam would be demeaning to an upstanding rapist?


Quote:

The comparison is truly scandalous when compared with the manner in which crimes involving the sexual abuse of children inside churches at the hands of priests are dealt with, for despite the noise and controversy surrounding such scandals, we have never heard anybody linking this to Christianity as a religion or to the priests’ ethnic background.

LOL. Never let reality get in the way of good spin eh?


Quote:

Statistics and reports prepared by specialists stress that...most sexual crimes against minors are committed by ‘white men’.

How exactly do you interpret this Falah? Does it merely mean that the majority of men in places that collect these statistics are white?


Quote:

This is how the majority of media outlets used this term in their reports, rather than saying ‘White Christians’, for example, in the same manner that the Pakistanis were described as ‘Asian Muslims.’

Might have something to do with these 'white men' not choosing to have thier photo taken with their lawyers in front of a church to play up their christian links.


Quote:

focusing on the defendants’ religion and their Pakistani roots as well as attacking the defendants’ ‘inferior culture’ regarding the treatment of women

Their culture is inferior when it comes to the treatment of women.

Falah, given that modern Muslims such as you and Abu promote the loveless marriage of even prepubescent girls to old men, the taking of women as slaves in war, and oppose legal punishment of men who rape their wives and slaves, the negative images of Islam are hardly unfair. If Muslims want people to stop portraying them as backwards and barbaric, the answer is simple: stop being backwards and barbaric.

freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Falah it's not like you to post about Islam here. Quote: In addition to this, there are also some press reports that intend to provoke public opinion or controversy by publishing some defamatory images. For example, a television report screened during the trial session of the nine defendants who were prosecuted on charges of rape, sexual assault and trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation, amongst other crimes, showed the defendants standing in front of a mosque. How is this defamatory? Are you suggesting the association with Islam would be demeaning to an upstanding rapist?

Freeliar, how often does the Western media publish pictures of Christian criminals standing outside a church?



freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Quote: The comparison is truly scandalous when compared with the manner in which crimes involving the sexual abuse of children inside churches at the hands of priests are dealt with, for despite the noise and controversy surrounding such scandals, we have never heard anybody linking this to Christianity as a religion or to the priests’ ethnic background. LOL. Never let reality get in the way of good spin eh?

Be honest Freeliar. you know that the link between crimianlity and Christianity is never made in the Western media when Christians commit a crime...or for that matter atheism when an atheist commits a crime.


freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Quote: This is how the majority of media outlets used this term in their reports, rather than saying ‘White Christians’, for example, in the same manner that the Pakistanis were described as ‘Asian Muslims.’ Might have something to do with these 'white men' not choosing to have thier photo taken with their lawyers in front of a church to play up their christian links.

You mean like the rapist priests and their enablers who wear their priest clothes to court:

http://www.nieman.harvard.edu/assets/Image/Nieman%20Reports/Images%20by%20Issue/spring03/Mehren.jpg

http://s3.reutersmedia.net/resources/r/?m=02&d=20100415&t=2&i=92512832&w=320&fh=&fw=&ll=&pl=&r=2010-04-15T225205Z_01_BTRE63E1RIW00_RTROPTP_0_PICAN

http://www.ucanews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Lynn.jpg



freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Quote: focusing on the defendants’ religion and their Pakistani roots as well as attacking the defendants’ ‘inferior culture’ regarding the treatment of women Their culture is inferior when it comes to the treatment of women.

Do you actually know any Pakistanis Freeliar? All the ones I have met treat women with great respect.



freediver wrote on May 23^rd, 2012 at 5:56pm:

Falah, given that modern Muslims such as you and Abu promote the loveless marriage of even prepubescent girls to old men, the taking of women as slaves in war, and oppose legal punishment of men who rape their wives and slaves, the negative images of Islam are hardly unfair. If Muslims want people to stop portraying them as backwards and barbaric, the answer is simple: stop being backwards and barbaric.

Freeliar you just cannot help yourself from lying can you? All the above is completely untrue.

Don't you see how twisted your own soul is that you can make up such utter lies?

Quote:

Be honest Freeliar. you know that the link between crimianlity and Christianity is never made in the Western media when Christians commit a crime...or for that matter atheism when an atheist commits a crime

The catholic priest pedophile thing receives a lot of media attention, but you don't see Christians whining about it. Instead they are trying to root out the pedophiles. The atheism thing is just stupid. Muslims use Islam as an excuse to make their women cover up and deny them other fundamental human rights. If you ever see an atheist using atheism as an excuse to do the same let me know. The media links communism with everything done in the name of communism for example, but the link with atheism is tenuous at best. Just because you make everything revolve around your spiritual beliefs to the exclusion of thinking for yourself does not mean others do the same.


Quote:

You mean like the rapist priests and their enablers who wear their priest clothes to court:

Yes Falah, thanks for demonstrating that the media does go to an effort to include the symbolism these people bring to court.


Quote:

Freeliar you just cannot help yourself from lying can you? All the above is completely untrue.

Remind us again what the punishment is for raping your wife or slave in Islam? Tell us what the difference is between permitting rape and not allowing it to be punished?

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:22am:

Quote: Like your claims about spousal rape - Falah is used as a source for the claim that islam permits spousal rape, even though in the thread you linked he argued at length the exact opposite. Then conceded that spousal rape is indeed legal under Islam. As is sex slavery. BTW, I also used it as an example of Muslims deliberately misleading people. Cunning eh? ANd it only took me about 50 pages to get the straight answer.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 10:42am:

freediver wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 8:22am: Then conceded that spousal rape is indeed legal under Islam. No he didn't. Seriously, what motivates such bare faced lies?

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 12:45pm:

Here you go Gandalf: falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:16pm: Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam. Lucky we have the wiki hey? Otherwise all we would see is 100 pages of Falah accusing me of lying because Islam encourages men to respect their wives (while also insisting it is a wife's duty to satisfy her husband on demand).

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 1:18pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 12:45pm: Here you go Gandalf: That was the most predictable reply ever. As pointed out in the very thread you quote, that is not a concession that it is legal under islam. I believe Falah himself went back and explained that to you. you make sh!t up to slander islam - the quicker you acknowledge this the quicker we can all move on. Acknowledgement is the first stage to recovery FD.

How else would you interpret "not a punishable offence"?

failing to pay tax and treason is not technically a punishable offense in islam either - but it is still forbidden.

Falah is right - you need to find a specific reference in the quran or hadith saying that spousal rape is ok before you can declare islam permits it.

There is more than enough references in the quran to get a very clear idea that any disrespect and abuse of women - which obviously includes spousal rape - is forbidden. Stop making sh!t up.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 6:42pm:

Falah is right - you need to find a specific reference in the quran or hadith saying that spousal rape is ok before you can declare islam permits it. There is more than enough references in the quran to get a very clear idea that any disrespect and abuse of women - which obviously includes spousal rape - is forbidden. Stop making sh!t up.

And Mohammed never raped captive women, either, you say.

Don't you ?


Islamonausea Rising in the West
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1367418236/268#268




FROM THE KORAN,

"..Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:..."
Koran 4.22-24

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;..."
Koran 33.50



"women.....whom your right hands possess" ???

Q.
What does that mean ???

A.
war booty, i.e. captive women.





gandalf,

What happened if those captive women didn't want to have sex with Mohammed ?

Did Mohammed just accept their rejection of him, do you think ?

Would those captive women even dare to express that they didn't want to engage in sex, demanded by their moslem owner/master ???

Quote:

failing to pay tax and treason is not technically a punishable offense in islam either - but it is still forbidden.

Most of the Muslims I have spoken to say you get the death penalty for treason (the same ones who admit spousal rape is not a punishable offence). If there was no punishment for not paying tax, I would not pay it. That makes it optional. If it is punishable, then it is punishable. Either way, it is kind of irrelevant.


Quote:

Falah is right - you need to find a specific reference in the quran or hadith saying that spousal rape is ok before you can declare islam permits it.

That is not how it works in reality Gandalf. That is backwards Muslim logic. Things are not illegal until you find a verse in the Koran specifically legalising them. It is obligatory for a wife to satisfy her husbands sexual demands on request, and spousal rape is not a punishable offence. In fact, wherever Islam permits sex, it permits rape. And wherever sex is forbidden, rape and consensual sex attract the same punishment. It's as if the Islamic legal system is completely oblivious to rape. No wonder you take the line that I need to find a verse specifically permitting it.


Quote:

There is more than enough references in the quran to get a very clear idea that any disrespect and abuse of women - which obviously includes spousal rape - is forbidden. Stop making sh!t up.

Yes, you would expect rape to be disrespectful, and other Muslims have made the same point, yet they also conceded that sex slaves are permitted, as well as what I mentioned above about rape and sex in general. In fact, there is a verse about Muhammed congratulating a soldier for preventing the escape of some women, thus enabling Muhammed and his mates to rape them without breaking whatever rules there are about what you can have sex with and when. Obviously he did not specifically say rape is permitted, but he might as well have. These are the contradictions of the Koran. I suspect it boils down to projecting modern concepts of respect for women. There are all sorts of nasty surprises for women in the Koran. They are basically second class citizens at best, and sex slaves at worst.

freediver wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 8:08pm:

In fact, there is a verse about Muhammed congratulating a soldier for preventing the escape of some women, thus enabling Muhammed and his mates to rape them without breaking whatever rules there are about what you can have sex with and when.

I can assure you, no such verse exists in the Quran. Why do I bother?

You realise that entire spiel about permitting rape is based on something you just made up right?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 2^nd, 2013 at 11:02pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 2nd, 2013 at 8:08pm: In fact, there is a verse about Muhammed congratulating a soldier for preventing the escape of some women, thus enabling Muhammed and his mates to rape them without breaking whatever rules there are about what you can have sex with and when. I can assure you, no such verse exists in the Quran. Why do I bother? You realise that entire spiel about permitting rape is based on something you just made up right?

So what is the arabic word for rape?

Zina is unlawful intercourse which could apply to consenting unmarried adults.

Mohammad had sex slaves, the quran tells you to follow his example in 33/21.
Sex slaves are halal for muslim men-
www.islamqa.com/en/ref/10382/slave

I'm not talking about that Baron, I'm talking about the verse from the quran that FD just invented.

Do you think not making sh!t up should be a prerequisite for having a sensible and rational debate?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:57am:

Do you think not making sh!t up should be a prerequisite for having a sensible and rational debate?

gandalf,

Not that i am suggesting that FD is, 'making sh!t up',
......but promoting falsehood as a truth, doesn't seem to have EVER been an obstacle to moslem morality, whenever moslems seek to develop and establish a 'relationships' with non-moslem communities.




e.g.
The Muslim Council of Britain [which presents itself as the umbrella organisation representing all British 'mainstream' muslims] has declared that the moslem community of the UK, condemns extremism and violence....


Quote:

Rejecting Terror Thursday, 11 April 2013 Muslims everywhere consider all acts of terrorism that aims to murder and maim innocent human beings utterly reprehensible and abhorrent. There is no theological basis whatsoever for such acts in our faith. The very meaning of the word 'Islam' is peace. It rejects terror and promotes peace and harmony.

http://www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2307:mcbnewstemplate&catid=82:mcb-news
http://www.mcb.org.uk/article_detail.php?article=announcement-656

Quote:

You realise that entire spiel about permitting rape is based on something you just made up right?

No gandalf. It is based on Muslims admitting that it is a wifes duty under Islamic law to satisfy her husbands sexual desires on demand, rejecting the idea of consent on the part of the woman involved, that spousal rape is not a punishable offence, that Islam permits sex slaves in addition to multiple wives and that Islam permits the rape of women caught in battle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Expedition_of_Wadi_al-Qura

According to the Muslim jurist al-Tabari and the Orientalist scholar William Muir, Qais tied each of Umm Qirfa's legs with a rope, and attached the ropes to two camels. Then he drove the camels in opposite directions thus renting her in two.[9][10] The circumstances of her death however are not mentioned in any Hadith collections, leading to some scholars doubting the authenticity of the way she was killed. Another version of this story says that the leader of this raid was Abu Bakr. Mohammed did not disapprove of the way she was killed, according to the Muslim jurist al-Tabari.

The event is mentioned in detail in the Sunni hadith collection, Sahih Muslim. It mentions that Umm Qirfa's daughter was exchanged for Muslim prisoners, who were held in Mecca.

It has been narrated on the authority of Salama (b. al-Akwa') who said: We fought against the Fazara and Abu Bakr was the commander over us. He had been appointed by the Messenger oi Allah (may peace be upon him). When we were only at an hour's distance from the water of the enemy, Abu Bakr ordered us to attack. We made a halt during the last part of the night tor rest and then we attacked from all sides and reached their watering-place where a battle was fought. Some of the enemies were killed and some were taken prisoners. I saw a group of persons that consisted of women and children. I was afraid lest they should reach the mountain before me, so I shot an arrow between them and the mountain. When they saw the arrow, they stopped. So I brought them, driving them along. Among them was a woman from Banu Fazara. She was wearing a leather coat. With her was her daughter who was one of the prettiest girls in Arabia. I drove them along until I brought them to Abu Bakr who bestowed that girl upon me as a prize. So we arrived in Medina. I had not yet disrobed her when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) met me in the street and said: Give me that girl, O Salama. I said: Messenger of Allah, she has fascinated me. I had not yet disrobed her. When on the next day. the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) again met me in the street, he said: O Salama, give me that girl, may God bless your father. I said: She is for you. Messenger of Allah! By Allah. I have not yet disrobed her. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent her to the people of Mecca, and surrendered her as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca. Sahih Muslim, 19:4345

You don't seem to understand FD - you made up a story about what was in the Quran, and used it to smear Islam. You are not disputing that it was made up, and instead pretend that you were basing your argument on something completely different.

I will deal with these other claims, but it needs to be emphasised that apart from anything else, its pretty poor form to base your accusations about an entire group of people on something that is so patently false. And its become a pattern - in two days you have claimed "slaughtering jews is in the Koran" and "ethnic cleansing is written in to the quran" - which are all false.

Soooo FD - you have given us two accounts of the prophet - one of a gruesome execution that has very little historical validity, and another account of the prophet rescuing a captured female before she is raped, and releasing her back to her people.

Sinister eh?

Quote:

in two days you have claimed "slaughtering jews is in the Koran" and "ethnic cleansing is written in to the quran" - which are all false

And yet you disproved this by pointing out the bits where Jews were slaughtered and where ethnic cleansing was ordered by Muhammed. Apparently it was not a slaughter because the Jews were OK with it....


Quote:

and another account of the prophet rescuing a captured female before she is raped, and releasing her back to her people

He traded one of the captured women, who was originally offered to a soldier as a prize for preventing the women and children from escaping. If there is any way to interpret the story as raping the women being illegal, please explain. Also, can you please point out the bit about her going back to her own people?

freediver wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:55pm:

And yet you disproved this by pointing out the bits where Jews were slaughtered and where ethnic cleansing was ordered by Muhammed. Apparently it was not a slaughter because the Jews were OK with it....

Not. In. The. Quran.

You seem to have difficulty  grasping this FD.


freediver wrote on Jul 3^rd, 2013 at 7:55pm:

Also, can you please point out the bit about her going back to her own people?

Quote:

he said: O Salama, give me that girl, may God bless your father. I said: She is for you. Messenger of Allah! By Allah. I have not yet disrobed her. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent her to the people of Mecca, and surrendered her as ransom for a number of Muslims who had been kept as prisoners at Mecca.

I see. I thought you were disagreeing with me about the Jew slaughtering and ethnic cleansing, not about which book it was in.

I see nothing to suggest the Meccan's were "her people". In any case that kind of misses the point. The passage makes clear that the normal outcome for women in her situation (or maybe just the ones who aren't pretty enough to be traded) is sexual slavery. She was initially offered as a prize to the guy who prevented the women and children from escaping. She was hardly "rescued" by a prophet who was looking out for her welfare, she was just more valuable as a ransom.

Moslems make up 6% of Sweden's population.

77% percent of the rapes in Sweden are committed by moslems ?





http://shariaunveiled.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/muslim-rape.png

http://shariaunveiled.wordpress.com/2013/06/17/muslims-earn-sweden-the-title-of-rape-capital-of-the-world/




When are the government and the people of Sweden going to acknowledge the root cause of the explosion of violent crimes in their society in recent years - ISLAM



[Moslem immigrants, are obligated [by their culture] to refuse to abandon their cultural mores, and are obligated [by their culture] to refuse to ADOPT the cultural mores AND TO RESPECT THE LAWS, of the new countries where moslems travel to, to live.      This is because ISLAM teaches moslems [from their childhood] that moslems are superior to all other people, outside of their 'camp'.      And that [because  moslems are morally superior] it is their moslem destiny, gifted by their god Allah, to rule over all other people on earth.]







"Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
Koran 3.110


"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:"
Koran 003.028


"O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?"
Koran 004.144


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51

The rape of captive/non-moslem women, by moslem men, IS JUSTIFIED AND LAWFUL WITHIN MAINSTREAM ISLAMIC LAW.






The rape of a non-moslem woman is viewed within the psyche of the moslem man, as a 'lawful' entitlement [to a moslem man].

Because....

To a moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia law.


The rape of captive/non-moslem women, by moslem men, is permitted by ISLAMIC law.

Because moslems are superior.        :P

Yadda wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 10:33am:

The rape of a non-moslem woman is viewed within the psyche of the moslem man, as a 'lawful' entitlement [to a moslem man]. Because.... To a moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia law.

Quote:

Kuwait: "Female political activist" calls for legalizing sex slavery..... The activist, Salwa Al-Mutairi, suggested apparently seriously in a video broadcast online that she had been informed by some clerics that affluent Muslim men who fear being seduced or tempted into immoral behavior by the beauty of their female servants, or even of those servants 'casting spells' on them, would be better to purchase women from an 'enslaved maid' agency for sexual purposes. This is not religiously forbidden," she added, indicating that Caliph Haroun Al-Rashid (766-809 AD) was married to one woman but possessed 200 concubines.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1307539638/0#0
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2011/06/raymond-ibrahim-kuwaiti-female-activist-advocates-islamic-sex-slavery.html

Yadda wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 10:21am:

Moslems make up 6% of Sweden's population. 77% percent of the rapes in Sweden are committed by moslems ?

100% of Yadda's statistics are bs

Yadda wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 10:45am:

To a moslem, all things are permissible, if they are permitted by Sharia law.

Now Yadda tell us what the punishment for rape is in Islam.




Quote:

"When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her.  She shouted and he went off... ....the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: "O Messenger of God, I am the man who did it to her." He (the Prophet) said to the woman: "Go away, for God has forgiven you."  And about the man who had intercourse with her, he said: "Stone him to death." - Sunan Abu Dawud

Rape attacks carried out with weapons carry extra penalties such as double amputation, crucifixion or execution.


How Muslims deal with rapists:

http://politicallyunbalanced.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/off-with.jpg




How Western world deals with rapists:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00666/prisonlife_666023c.jpg




Hmmm...which one condones rape? Which one sends the strongest message against rape?






Islam has severe punishments for rape unlike Christianity:

"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver... :o
- Deuteronomy 22:28






Quote:

[i] Kuwait: "Female political activist" calls for legalizing sex slavery..... This is not religiously forbidden,"she added, indicating that Caliph Haroun Al-Rashid (766-809 AD) was married to one woman but possessed 200 concubines.

Yadda, I wonder why you use the word 'sex-slaves' in the title, but the word concubines in the text.

Is it because the woman you are quoting never used the word "sex-slave"?

I looked at the Youtube video, and the woman you quote never used the word "sex-slave" in Arabic.

A bit misleading isn't it?

This is typical of the anti-Muslim brigade - using lies, fabrications, mistranslations and fake statistics because they are hopeless liars.

Quote:

How Muslims deal with rapists:

TC, would you mind giving a traditional example of a Muslim man being punished in this manner for raping his wife or sex slave? Or even a non-Muslim woman whom he did not own?

True Colours wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 1:05pm:

How Muslims deal with rapists: Hmmm...which one condones rape? Which one sends the strongest message against rape? Islam has severe punishments for rape unlike Christianity: This is typical of the anti-Muslim brigade - using lies, fabrications, mistranslations and fake statistics because they are hopeless liars.

We could look at the recent case in the UAE which jails rape victims, how are you going to bullshit your way out of this one?-

Quote:

A Norwegian woman has spoken out about the 16 month prison sentence she received in Dubai after reporting a rape to police. According to the Emirates centre for human rights,UAE law states a rape conviction can only be secured after a confession or as the result of testimony from four adult male witnesses to the crime. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

Muslims are the only people who jail rape victims, muslims are the only people who need 4 adult males to witness a rape instead of believing the woman.

What do you think of our statutory rape laws,do you even know what they are, would Mohammad be a registered sex offender if he was alive today?

freediver wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 9:59pm:

Quote: How Muslims deal with rapists: TC, would you mind giving a traditional example of a Muslim man being punished in this manner for raping his wife or sex slave? Or even a non-Muslim woman whom he did not own?

A traditional example? Yeah shall I just pull up all the court records that ever existed and check?


Speaking of traditions, perhaps you can give me some example of people being punished for similar crimes in the non-Muslim world prior to the feminist movement in 1970's?

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 10:23pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 31st, 2013 at 1:05pm: We could look at the recent case in the UAE which jails rape victims, how are you going to bullshit your way out of this one?- Quote: A Norwegian woman has spoken out about the 16 month prison sentence she received in Dubai after reporting a rape to police. It is a bit dishonest to portray what happened this way isn't it - considering that the woman herself withdrew her allegations of rape: [quote]Dubai rape victim says she acted stupidly Marte Dalelv, 24, said she had been tricked into withdrawing her initial rape report, exposing herself to being convicted for consensual extramarital sex. "My boss told me it would be much easier for me that way, since it's extremely hard to get anyone sentenced for rape [in Dubai],'' she said as she returned to Norway. "It's the biggest mistake I've ever made. It was incredibly stupid of me, but that was the advice I got.'' http://www.news.com.au/world-news/brekkie-wrap-dubai-rape-victim-says-she-acted-stupidly-queen-meets-the-royal-baby/story-fndir2ev-1226684678228

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 10:23pm:

According to the Emirates centre for human rights,UAE law states a rape conviction can only be secured after a confession or as the result of testimony from four adult male witnesses to the crime. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448

The UAE does not follow Islamic law. As a former British colony, it follows a mixture of British law and whims of the dictators who were put in control by the British.







Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31^st, 2013 at 10:23pm:

What do you think of our statutory rape laws,do you even know what they are, would Mohammad be a registered sex offender if he was alive today?

Considering how societies have married women as they reached puberty through nearly all of human history, we would probably have to assume that most of the men who have ever lived would be registered as sex offenders if current Australian law applied to them.

However, if Australian law was based on science rather than subjectivity, then the answer would be no.

A lot of hypocrisy can be found in Australian law. For example, a person can charged with a crime at 11 years of age. If an 11 year-old was really a child in the scientific sense, then why is it that they can be charged with a crime?


In the US people they can be jailed for life - but can't be married. Make sense?


Quote:

Children jailed for life in US Imagine committing a crime as a child and being locked up in an adult prison for the rest of your life with no prospect of release. This is the case for over 2,000 children convicted of homicide offences across the United States... http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/lawreport/brian-stevenson/4616278

True Colours wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 6:10am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31st, 2013 at 10:23pm: True Colours wrote on Jul 31st, 2013 at 1:05pm: We could look at the recent case in the UAE which jails rape victims, how are you going to bullshit your way out of this one?- Quote: A Norwegian woman has spoken out about the 16 month prison sentence she received in Dubai after reporting a rape to police. It is a bit dishonest to portray what happened this way isn't it - considering that the woman herself withdrew her allegations of rape: [quote]Dubai rape victim says she acted stupidly Marte Dalelv, 24, said she had been tricked into withdrawing her initial rape report, exposing herself to being convicted for consensual extramarital sex. "My boss told me it would be much easier for me that way, since it's extremely hard to get anyone sentenced for rape [in Dubai],'' she said as she returned to Norway. "It's the biggest mistake I've ever made. It was incredibly stupid of me, but that was the advice I got.'' http://www.news.com.au/world-news/brekkie-wrap-dubai-rape-victim-says-she-acted-stupidly-queen-meets-the-royal-baby/story-fndir2ev-1226684678228 Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 31st, 2013 at 10:23pm: According to the Emirates centre for human rights,UAE law states a rape conviction can only be secured after a confession or as the result of testimony from four adult male witnesses to the crime. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23381448 The UAE does not follow Islamic law. As a former British colony, it follows a mixture of British law and whims of the dictators who were put in control by the British.

BRILLIANT RESPONSE.          ;D


NEWSFLASH True Colours.

The United Arabic Emirates, is not a colony of Britain.







The United Arabic Emirates is a fully autonomous moslem majority jurisdiction, which decides upon its own laws, being guided by ISLAMIC 'religious' texts and influence.

BUT, if there is found to be fault and error in the laws of the United Arabic Emirates, then we can blame who ????

The influence of those insidious infidels !!



This is a typical moslem response, to criticism of moslem wrongdoing.

1/ If infidels do something wrong, it is because they are infidels.

2/ And when a moslem does something wrong, [moslems ALWAYS will claim that] it is because of the influence or wrong doing of an infidel.




Moslem wrong doing ???

Castigate those infidels!!!



Has a moslem wrong doer ever acknowledged his own error or guilt ???

Show me.

Yadda wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 9:25am:

NEWSFLASH True Colours. The United Arabic Emirates, is not a colony of Britain.

UAE was a British Colony for 150 years. In December 1971, Britain left a pliant pro-British dictatorship in control, which kept British institutions including a British-based legal system.

True Colours wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 9:45am:

Yadda wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 9:25am: NEWSFLASH True Colours. The United Arabic Emirates, is not a colony of Britain. UAE was a British Colony for 150 years. In December 1971, Britain left a pliant pro-British dictatorship in control, which kept British institutions including a British-based legal system.

"In December 1971, Britain left..."


2013
-1971
---------
42




For only 42 years, the United Arabic Emirates has been a fully autonomous moslem majority jurisdiction, which decides upon its own laws, being guided by ISLAMIC 'religious' texts and influence.

And the laws of the United Arabic Emirates, mandate the gaoling persons who report their own immoral behaviour,     ....by 'allowing' themselves to be raped.         :P

I blame Britain !

True Colours wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 6:10am:

The UAE does not follow Islamic law. As a former British colony, it follows a mixture of British law and whims of the dictators

Lots of rape victims jailed in the UAE even the aussie girl Alicia Gali, try google.

Do you have to be a dumbfvckistani with an IQ of less than 80 to be a muslim?

The UAE constitution article 7

Quote:

Article 7 Islam is the official religion,The Islamic shariah shall be the main source of legislation,The official language is Arabic. Link-www.aceproject.org/ero-en/regions/mideast/AE/united-arab-emirates-constitution-1996/view

Please cite the british law that requires 4 male witnesses for a rape conviction.

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 11:00am:

True Colours wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 6:10am: The UAE does not follow Islamic law. As a former British colony, it follows a mixture of British law and whims of the dictators Lots of rape victims jailed in the UAE even the aussie girl Alicia Gali, try google. Do you have to be a dumbfvckistani with an IQ of less than 80 to be a muslim? The UAE constitution article 7 Quote: Article 7 Islam is the official religion,The Islamic shariah shall be the main source of legislation,The official language is Arabic. Link-www.aceproject.org/ero-en/regions/mideast/AE/united-arab-emirates-constitution-1996/view Please cite the british law that requires 4 male witnesses for a rape conviction.

Please cite the verse from the Quran or hadeeth that requires 4 male witnesses for a rape conviction.


You can't because there is no such Islamic law.


Scholars of Islam have said that Islamic law allows for a rape conviction on the testimony of one woman based on the following example of the prophet:




Quote:

Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr: "When a woman went out in the time of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) for prayer, a man attacked her and overpowered (raped) her. She shouted and he went off, and when a man came by, she said: "That (man) did such and such to me." And when a company of the Emigrants came by, she (pointed a man out) saying: "That man did such and such to me." They went and seized the man whom they thought had raped her and brought him to her. She said: "Yes, this is he." Then they brought him to the Messenger of God (peace_be_upon_him). When he (the Prophet) was about to pass sentence, the man who (actually) had assaulted her stood up and said: "Messenger of God, I am the man who did it to her. He (the Prophet) said to her: "Go away, for God has forgiven you." But he told the man some good words (meaning the man who was mistakenly seized), and of the man who had had raped her, he said: "Stone him to death."... (Book #38, Hadith #4366)

True Colours wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 4:31am:

freediver wrote on Jul 31st, 2013 at 9:59pm: Quote: How Muslims deal with rapists: TC, would you mind giving a traditional example of a Muslim man being punished in this manner for raping his wife or sex slave? Or even a non-Muslim woman whom he did not own? A traditional example? Yeah shall I just pull up all the court records that ever existed and check?

Just one will do for now. Is this just another transparent attempt at deflection?

I put it to you that short of Muhammed explicitly stating "go ahead and rape, for it is legal under Islamic law", all the laws and principles the implicitly legalise rape, together with the complete absence of any convictions under Islamic law for rape in the context of sex that is otherwise permitted in Islamic law, make an undeniable case that Islamic law permits rape.


Quote:

Speaking of traditions, perhaps you can give me some example of people being punished for similar crimes in the non-Muslim world prior to the feminist movement in 1970's?

The western world outlawed sex slavery well before the 70s.

Are you suggesting that Islamic law is something better left in the past, where it belongs?

True Colours wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 12:17pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 11:00am: True Colours wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 6:10am: The UAE does not follow Islamic law. As a former British colony, it follows a mixture of British law and whims of the dictators Lots of rape victims jailed in the UAE even the aussie girl Alicia Gali, try google. Do you have to be a dumbfvckistani with an IQ of less than 80 to be a muslim? The UAE constitution article 7 Quote: Article 7 Islam is the official religion,The Islamic shariah shall be the main source of legislation,The official language is Arabic. Link-www.aceproject.org/ero-en/regions/mideast/AE/united-arab-emirates-constitution-1996/view Please cite the british law that requires 4 male witnesses for a rape conviction. Please cite the verse from the Quran or hadeeth that requires 4 male witnesses for a rape conviction. You can't because there is no such Islamic law.

Please cite from the Quran where rape is forbidden,please use Quran.com to link these verses or people will call bullshit.

Zina is not rape it is unlawful sex which includes consenting sex between adults who may or may not be married,if they are married the penalty for adultery is stoning to death and if unmarried then they are to be flogged 100 times for consenting sex.

The sheikh at Islam qa will spell it out for you-

Quote:

How can four witnesses be brought against a man and woman who commit zina in the present age? He even quotes from Quran,hadith and scholars- www.islamqa.com/en/88051

Quote:

It is a bit dishonest to portray what happened this way isn't it - considering that the woman herself withdrew her allegations of rape:

Why is it dishonest? You keep pointing out that she withdrew the allegation. People keep asking you what you think this means. You keep ignoring these questions. Are you incapable of thinking about that it really means?


Quote:

Considering how societies have married women as they reached puberty through nearly all of human history, we would probably have to assume that most of the men who have ever lived would be registered as sex offenders if current Australian law applied to them.

A very high percentage of those men would still be alive today. In any case, the same question applies - are you suggesting that Islamic law should be left in the past, where it belongs?


Quote:

However, if Australian law was based on science rather than subjectivity, then the answer would be no. A lot of hypocrisy can be found in Australian law. For example, a person can charged with a crime at 11 years of age. If an 11 year-old was really a child in the scientific sense, then why is it that they can be charged with a crime?

What are you trying to say TC? Spell it out, for the people who have a hard time believing you would actually say something so stupid.


Quote:

Zina is not rape it is unlawful sex

According to Abu the only consent that matter's is God's consent. The woman's opinion does not really matter. Hence, under Islamic law, this technically is rape, even if the woman consents. That is why the punishment is the same for consensual sex and actual rape - the punishment is always based on whether the sex is permitted, not whether the woman consented.

Does Islam permit rape?

Yes it does, the qur'an says so


Quote:

qur'an24.033 SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

If you force a girl into prostitution, every time someone has sex with her she is being raped. (she has been forced into prostitution, she is forced into sex against her will)

muslims will lie and tell you qur'an24.033 do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste means that rape and forced prostitution is forbidden.

They lie. The very next sentence in qur'an24.033 says :whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful

Therefore rape and forced prostitution is not forbidden, it is merely advised against, however if you do not heed this recommendation and force the girl into prostitution and rape, allah is forgiving.

It is my understanding that where Islam permits sex, it considers sex to be the man's right and the woman's responsibility. I think that mainly applies to your wives. I have no idea what rights it grants sex slaves, given that a wife's position in Islam is barely better than that of a slave.

moses wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 4:58pm:

Does Islam permit rape? Yes it does, the qur'an says so Quote: qur'an24.033 SHAKIR: And let those who do not find the means to marry keep chaste until Allah makes them free from want out of His grace. And (as for) those who ask for a writing from among those whom your right hands possess, give them the writing if you know any good in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you; and do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste, in order to seek the frail good of this world's life; and whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. If you force a girl into prostitution, every time someone has sex with her she is being raped. (she has been forced into prostitution, she is forced into sex against her will) muslims will lie and tell you qur'an24.033 do not compel your slave girls to prostitution, when they desire to keep chaste means that rape and forced prostitution is forbidden. They lie. The very next sentence in qur'an24.033 says :whoever compels them, then surely after their compulsion Allah is Forgiving, Merciful Therefore rape and forced prostitution is not forbidden, it is merely advised against, however if you do not heed this recommendation and force the girl into prostitution and rape, allah is forgiving.

I think it that it demonstrates evil psychology on your part that you would even assume that the verse means that.

The verse says:


Quote:

And force not your maids to sexual servitude, if they desire chastity, in seeking the temporary interests of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them (to sexual servitude), then after such compulsion, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly).

TC where does it say what the punishment is for raping your wives or sex slaves?

True Colours wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 12:17pm:

Scholars of Islam have said that Islamic law allows for a rape conviction on the testimony of one woman based on the following example of the prophet:

FD I have to agree with True Colours on this one, have a small  problem however. It can be extremely injurious to a woman's wellbeing.

Almost 50 percent of women in a study of female deaths in Alexandria, Egypt were killed by a relative after being raped.

As you see True Colours tells no lies of course you can tell them you were raped, that's if you wish to DIE!

http://www.wisemuslimwomen.org/currentissues/stigmitizationofrape/

An Afghan woman raped by her cousin’s husband has revealed how she is faced with a horrific dilemma – marry him or spend the next 12 years in jail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065301/Afghan-woman-jailed-raped-cousins-husband-offered-release-marries-attacker.html

as for the next one, words fail me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4PFnl1S6Q


Hena Begum was a fourteen year old girl growing up in the Shariatpur region of Bangladesh until her forty year old cousin decided to rape her.

After she was raped, the rapist and his family then beat her until she was unconscious.

Next, the local Sharia (Islamic) courts ruled that yound Hena should receive 101 lashes for the crime of adultery — for the crime of being a child raped by an adult.

The Muslim clerics took the young girl, who still could not stand on her own, to a public square and proceeded to deliver the 101 lashes. After receiving 80 lashes, young Hena collapsed. Her family was allowed to take her to a hospital where she died from her wounds.

http://www.care2.com/news/member/100541798/3526343

The article below may explain some form of muslim thinking, but I doubt it.

http://www.iran-bulletin.org/women/RAPE.html

Do we really require sharia here?

Adamant wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 11:01pm:

FD I have to agree with True Colours on this one, have a small  problem however. It can be extremely injurious to a woman's wellbeing. Almost 50 percent of women in a study of female deaths in Alexandria, Egypt were killed by a relative after being raped. As you see True Colours tells no lies of course you can tell them you were raped, that's if you wish to DIE! http://www.wisemuslimwomen.org/currentissues/stigmitizationofrape/ An Afghan woman raped by her cousin’s husband has revealed how she is faced with a horrific dilemma – marry him or spend the next 12 years in jail. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2065301/Afghan-woman-jailed-raped-cousins-husband-offered-release-marries-attacker.html as for the next one, words fail me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq4PFnl1S6Q Hena Begum was a fourteen year old girl growing up in the Shariatpur region of Bangladesh until her forty year old cousin decided to rape her. After she was raped, the rapist and his family then beat her until she was unconscious. Next, the local Sharia (Islamic) courts ruled that yound Hena should receive 101 lashes for the crime of adultery — for the crime of being a child raped by an adult. The Muslim clerics took the young girl, who still could not stand on her own, to a public square and proceeded to deliver the 101 lashes. After receiving 80 lashes, young Hena collapsed. Her family was allowed to take her to a hospital where she died from her wounds. http://www.care2.com/news/member/100541798/3526343 The article below may explain some form of muslim thinking, but I doubt it. http://www.iran-bulletin.org/women/RAPE.html Do we really require sharia here?

moslem = = a person who revels in, and justifies, institutionalised blame shifting [blame shifting from the guilty strong person, to the weak victim]


And it is the authority of ISLAM which makes lawful this institutionalised blame shifting.







+++


not in the main JW article,
but a posting as a comment, by,
A_Nonny_Mouse | July 26, 2007 8:07 PM
....

Quote:

Shame vs. Guilt The Western culture, is guilt based. The Eastern culture is shame based. For Easterners, everything is about image and how others see us. The opposite of guilt is innocence. If your ethos is guilt based, you have an inner police that stops you from doing wrong because doing wrong makes you feel guilty. If your ethos is shame based, all you care is to preserve your image. The opposite of shame is honor. You can do wrong but as long as no one sees it, your image is not tarnished and you can still be seen as an honorable person.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2007/07/former-sydney-imam-who-produced-dvds-calling-for-jihad-martyrdom-calling-jews-pigs-phones-home-for-s.html#comment-378269i
Sharia Australia
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1295543010/5#5

Quote:

We must continue to examine and criticise ISLAM. And criticise its culture of guilt 'avoidance' [through destroying, killing, its critics]. ISLAM promotes itself, through its adherents, by claiming that ISLAM is a honourable and beneficial philosophy for mankind. But no one, either inside ISLAM [moslems], or outside ISLAM [non-moslems], is allowed to critically examine ISLAM, and its tenets and precepts. Indeed, within ISLAMIC jurisdictions, critics of ISLAM are often summarily killed, for their 'crime' of 'insulting' [the honour of] ISLAM. If ISLAM truly is a honourable and beneficial philosophy to mankind, why is critical examination of ISLAM always met with violence by its adherents??? One of the essential differences between our 'Western' culture, and ISLAM, is that we have embraced self criticism. But, ISLAM never has.

Google;
the difference between shame, and guilt based culture, islam



Quote:

"How to Beat Jihad ....Shame vs. Guilt Islamic cultures are shame based. Shame is a painful experience. To avoid shame you have to hide the source of shame. This means you must protect the image. Your entire self esteem and self worth depends on that image. When you are shamed you become violence. Violence is one way we humans deal with shame..... .....The Western culture, is guilt based.  The Eastern culture is shame based. For us Easterners, everything is about image and how others see us. The opposite of guilt is innocence. If your ethos is guilt based, you have an inner police that stops you from doing wrong because doing wrong makes you feel guilty.  If your ethos is shame based, all you care is to preserve your image. The opposite of shame is honor. You can do wrong but as long as no one sees it, your image is not tarnished and you can still be seen as an honorable person.  In a shame based culture, wrong and right have no meaning.  It is all about shame and honor.  If the stain of shame is removed, even if it means the murder of your own daughter, honor is restored.  These are two very different worldviews. Unless we understand them we will not be able to make sense of Muslims and their minds."

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/sina70723.htm

Adamant wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 11:01pm:

True Colours wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 12:17pm: Scholars of Islam have said that Islamic law allows for a rape conviction on the testimony of one woman based on the following example of the prophet: FD I have to agree with True Colours on this one, have a small  problem however.

I agree that Islam does allow for rape convictions. However this is only in the context of sex that is not permitted, and the punishment for the rapist is the same as if the sex had been consensual. Obviously it makes a difference to whether the woman is punished or forgiven.

In situations where Islam permits sex (wives and sex slaves), rape is not a punishable offence. I have even gotten Muslims to admit this directly.

True Colours wrote;

Quote:

I think it that it demonstrates evil psychology on your part that you would even assume that the verse means that. The verse says: [quote]And force not your maids to sexual servitude, if they desire chastity, in seeking the temporary interests of this worldly life. But if anyone compels them (to sexual servitude), then after such compulsion, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly).

[/quote]

You are running from the issue True Colours.

islam does not forbid rape with the above verse.

If something is forbidden, it is commanded against, entirely banned.

If the above verse is forbidding rape, why isn't it clearly stated the offence is prohibited and punishable?

Instead the above verse supplies a proviso, for when the forced prostitution / rape occurs. The verse is accepting the crime and saying allah is forgiving.

The whole thing stinks of muslim lies. The verse is merely suggesting don't force women to be whores and rape them, but if you do allah is merciful.

As for the bit about forgiving a woman who did not sin: How can you forgive a sin that has not been committed?

Can you tell me why the woman has to be forgiven? She has done no wrong. She was an innocent victim. (She didn't commit the offence, the muslim who was raping her perpetrated the crime.)

Adamant wrote on Aug 1^st, 2013 at 11:01pm:

Do we really require sharia here?

None of the cases you mentioned involve proper sharia courts. Rather vigilante courts that run by village idiots.

Saudi Arabia has sharia courts. Let's see how Saudi Arabia deals with rapists:


Quote:

Saudi beheads three men for rape Two Chadians and one Saudi man were publicly beheaded in Saudi Arabia on Monday, following a guilty verdict in a particularly gruesome rape. http://digitaljournal.com/article/314447

Australia has no sharia courts, Adrian Bayley was free to rape and kill Jill Meagher despite previously having already raped 8 women. Already jailed twice for rape - only 2 years the first time. Australia's rape laws are no deterrents for these diseased animals.



Quote:

Adrian Bayley to be sentenced over rape and murder of Jill Meagher In a pre-sentencing hearing last week, the prosecution revealed Bayley's long history of violent attacks on women, spanning more than 20 years. [quote]Key points *Adrian Bayley has pleaded guilty to killing Jill Meagher last year. *He will be sentenced today in the Victorian Supreme Court. *The prosecution has called for him to be jailed for life. *The defence says he should be given a non-parole term so he has hope of release. *In a pre-sentencing hearing last week, Bayley's violent past was revealed. *He has served a total of 11 years in prison for the rape and attempted rape of eight women

Bayley was on parole when he raped and murdered Ms Meagher in 2012.

The case has highlighted failings by the Victorian Parole Board.
It also revealed he has previously bluffed his way through prison rehabilitation courses.

Bayley was also on parole when he snatched Ms Meagher off Sydney Road in Brunswick as she tried to make a five-minute walk home after a night out with friends.

The fact his parole was not revoked after Bayley admitted to bashing a man unconscious, leaving him free to walk the streets of Melbourne, has highlighted failings by the Victorian Parole Board to monitor sex offenders on parole...


Bayley told police 'they should never have let me out'


During a 10-hour police interview, Bayley gave a candid assessment of the high risk he posed to women after admitting he strangled Ms Meagher and then dumped her body in Gisborne South, 50 kilometres north of Victoria.

"I'm going to jail for a long time... I hope they bring back the death penalty before I get sentenced. I have no life left," Bayley told detectives.

"They should have the death penalty for people like me.

"How many chances does a person need? They should never have let me out."

Earlier this year, the Victorian Government admitted existing parole laws had failed and tougher measures were needed.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-06-19/adrian-bayley-to-be-sentenced-for-jill-meagher-murder/4763698
[/quote]


Yes Australia needs sharia.

Death for rapists!

Quote:

Yes Australia needs sharia.

So are soldiers should be allowed to take women home from Iraq and Afghanistan as sex slaves?

What would the appropriate punishment be under Shariah law if one of them happened to (God forbid) rape their sex slave?

freediver wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2013 at 3:30pm:

Quote: Yes Australia needs sharia. So are soldiers should be allowed to take women home from Iraq and Afghanistan as sex slaves?

Australia has no business being in Iraq or Afghanistan in the first place.

I see. So our soldiers should be allowed to take women home 'wars you approve of' as sex slaves?

True Colours wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 10:00pm:

The Arabic word for rape is 'ightisaab".

Is that the word that is used in all those verses you claim prohibit rape? Or any of them?


Quote:

So Islam says a wide does not have the right to deny her husband sex. So you translate that to mean that husband has the right to rape his wife. That is ridiculous.

No it isn't. Why do you think you are incapable of stating what the punishment is for raping your broad or sex slave? Why are you incapable of giving a single example from all of Islam's history of a Muslim being punished under Islamic law for raping his wife or sex slave? It's because Islam considers sex to be a man's right and a woman's responsibility. Consider for a moment how hard it is to get a rape conviction in the west. Now add onto this a culture that does not even recognise the need for the woman's consent and a preference for arranged marriage or sex slavery. What do you end up with? You end up with state endorsed, institutionalised rape with a moral loophole for Muslims to claim that it is forbidden, even though it actually isn't. At best Islam permits it, but wrings it's hands and says it's not very nice. At worst, it openly endorses it as part of the empire building process.


Quote:

It is like saying this: Australian laws says you don't have the right to murder someone. Therefore if someone murders your relative you have the right to take vigilante revenge action.

It is nothing like that at all.


Quote:

What does Islam actually say? Only that if a wife denies her husband sex, then she is making a sin.

In other words, it says nothing about rape. It does not even recognise rape as a crime. Do you really think that anything other than specifically endorsing rape counts as forbidding it?


Quote:

Just like if a husband denied his wife food he would be in the wrong.

No TC, that is not the same thing.


Quote:

Let's think about for a second. How on Earth does the wife refuse to have sex with her husband for the whole night if as you claim Islam permits marital rape.

By beating him with a frypan? Is this really the closest thing you can find to Islam outlawing rape?


Quote:

The word used is "tap"

No it isn't. We have been over this. Translating it as tap simply does not make sense, and the only argument given in favour of that translation is that it is 'linguistically possible' - so long as you completely ignore the context.


Quote:

Even this is just an opinion of a man and there is no verse in the Quran or hadeeth saying that a husband should beat a wife for refusing sex.

Nor is there a verse saying the opposite. There are however several hadiths endorsing wife beating and saying that a husband shall not be asked the reason why he beat his wife.


Quote:

On the contrary, the Quran and hadeeth emphasise kind treatment of women.

Sure they do. It also permits beating them. That is like emphasising not raping women, but permitting it. Or emphasising not stealing, but permitting it. Emphasising is not the same thing as forbidding.


Quote:

The word used in the Quran is 'bagaa' which means both sex outside of marriage and prostitution.

Islam considers sex slavery to be like marriage. I think it was you who just explained this. In other words, Islam does not forbid the raping of sex slaves. It only forbids forcing them into sexual acts that Islam already forbids.


Quote:

It also infers oppression which rape is certainly a type of.

Is that as close as you can get to Islam forbidding rape? Inferring that oppression is forbidden?


Quote:

eg. God does not hold the forced women as blameworthy. How does your sick mind twist it round to somehow mean that rape is allowed?

It seems pretty obvious to me. The closest thing you can find to Islam outlawing the rape of sex slaves is a verse that forbids prostituting them out, but offers forgiveness for the woman and fails to even acknowledge the crime committed by the man. It's like the verse about the beaten wife that complains to Muhammed about it, then the Koran completely ignores the fact that she is beaten because there is some trivial issue that is more important. And because the Koran does not specifically state the man was not punished for beating his wife, Muslims insist this means he was.

shockresist wrote on Aug 6^th, 2013 at 10:24pm:

The act of rape itself is illegal in Islam.

Can you point to the relevant verse please? Is it the one that forbids prostituting out your sex slave, but offers forgiveness for the woman if it does happen? Is it the ones about wife beating? Perhaps the one where it says a man shall not be asked why he beat his wife? Is it the ones where it talks about a wife's duty to full her husband's/owners sexual needs? It is the ones that talk about a man's "rights" to have sex with the women he owns?

Waqidi was a devout Muslim who sincerely admired the prophet Muhammad. But he was also a historian and one of the best experts on early Islam. In his book Kitab Al Maghazi, he describes the following episode:

Bani Mustaliq was a branch of the tribe of Khuza’ah who were the neighbors of Quraysh, the tribe of the prophet Muhammad. They were a free Arab tribe, not Jews or Christians. In the sixth year of the migration, Muhammad, under the invented pretext that Bani Mustaliq wanted to besiege  Medina, took his gang of the Muhajirs (emigrants from Mecca who followed Muhammad to Medina; also called “Companions”) and the Ansar (those of the people of Medina who joined Muhammad and became Muslims), and attacked Bani Mustaliq by the Well of Marysi’. As a result of the “bloody battle,” ten men of Bani Mustaliq and one of the Companions were killed, gaining Muhammad a triumphant victory over the “idolatries.” Consequently, a large booty fell to the hands of the army of Islam, and the women of the enemy were an important part of that booty.

You may have supposed that Muhammad, described by Muslim scholars as ”the most merciful of all men,” immediately ordered his army to show mercy on them, but the truth is that he did not.

Muslim Conquests (Source: http://warfarehistorian.blogspot.com/2013/03/this-day-in-history-battle-of-badr-624.html)
Muslim Conquests (Source: http://warfarehistorian.blogspot.com/2013/03/this-day-in-history-battle-of-badr-624.html)

The troops composed of the first Muslim “saints” and “martyrs,” and commanded by Muhammad in person, started to rape 200 women whose husbands were not dead, and were in fact only a few feet from the site of the rapes. I repeat: 200 captured women of the tribe (expressly said to be free women and not slaves, “kara’im al ‘Arab”, Halabi ii 296) were raped by Muhammad’s men with his full consent! And what did “the most perfect of all men” do? He recommended to his men the means to prevent conception! To make the situation even more cynical, the Muslims, when they got bored of Bani Mustaliq women, made the husbands buy back their raped wives.

That was really a great idea! Such a wonderful method of raising funds for the “Sacred War” could come only to Muhammad’s clever head! First attack the free Arab tribe, then rape their women, then make the husbands pay ransom for letting their raped wives free, and on this money, organize the bandit raid on another Arab or Jewish tribe where the cycle will continue.


And so on ad infinitum.

FD do I have to post links to the articles I post or can I copy the muslims lead such as Gandy and TC(the individual who never answers a question).

This time only, unless told otherwise.

http://chersonandmolschky.com/2013/08/15/muslims-rape/

Any proof of all of these rape claims or bs the way of the Islamophobe.

True Colours wrote on Aug 18^th, 2013 at 4:36pm:

Any proof of all of these rape claims or bs the way of the Islamophobe.

Answer my question first as I am fully Islamonauseated at the moment so YOU the muslim put up or do as your wife tells you and piss off to that all encompassing lover of everything most tolerant of societies (even though it is one of the most RACIST) Saudi Arabia

Adam, please include the links, for my benefit if not for Gandalf's.