Esteemed Saudi scholar Sheikh Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid clarifies the ruling of punishment of rape under Islamic law:

What is the ruling on the crime of rape in Islam?

...This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden in all religions and in the minds of all wise people and those who are possessed of sound human nature. All earthly systems and laws regard this action as abhorrent and impose the strictest penalties on it, except a few states which waive the punishment if the rapist marries his victim! This is indicative of a distorted mind let alone a lack of religious commitment on the part of those who challenge God in making laws. We do not know of any love or compassion that could exist between the aggressor and his victim, especially since the pain of rape cannot be erased with the passage of time – as it is said. Hence many victims of rape have attempted to commit suicide and many of them have succeeded, The failure of these marriages is proven and they are accompanied by nothing but humiliation and suffering for the woman.

Islam has a clear stance which states that this repugnant action is forbidden and imposes a deterrent punishment on the one who commits it.

Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit this crime. Western studies have shown that most rapists are already criminals who commit their crimes under the influence of alcohol and drugs, and they take advantage of the fact that their victims are walking alone in isolated places, or staying in the house alone. These studies also show that what the criminals watch on the media and the semi-naked styles of dress in which women go out, also lead to the commission of this reprehensible crime.

The laws of Islam came to protect women's honour and modesty. Islam forbids women to wear clothes that are not modest and to journey without a close male relative; it forbids a woman to shake hands with a man who is not a close relative. Islam encourages young men and women to marry early, and many other rulings which close the door to rape. Hence it comes as no surprise when we hear or read that most of these crimes occur in permissive societies which are looked up to by some Muslims as examples of civilization and refinement! In America – for example – International Amnesty stated in a 2004 report entitled “Stop Violence Against Women” that every 90 seconds a woman was raped during that year. What kind of life are these people living? What refinement and civilization do they want the Muslim women to take part in?

The punishment for rape in Islam is same as the punishment for fornication/adultery, which is stoning if the perpetrator is married, and one hundred lashes and banishment for one year if he is not married.

Some scholars also say that he is required to pay a dowry to the woman.

Imam Maalik said:


Quote:

In our view the man who rapes a woman, whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a “dowry” like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case.

Al-Muwatta’, 2/734

Shaykh Salmaan al-Baaji said:


Quote:

In the case of a woman who is forced (raped): if she is a free woman, the one who forced her must pay her a “dowry” like that of her peers, and the hadd punishment is to be carried out on him. This is the view of al-Shaafa’i, and it is the view of al-Layth, and it was also narrated from ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib .

Abu Haneefah and al-Thawri said:
Quote:

the prescribed punishment is to be carried out on him but he is not obliged to pay the “dowry”. The evidence for what we say is that the prescribed punishment and the “dowry” are two rights, one of which is the right of God and the other is the right of the other person. So they may be combined, as in the case of a thief whose hand is cut off and he is required to return the stolen goods.

Al-Muntaha Sharh al-Muwatta’, 5/268, 269

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said:


Quote:

The scholars are unanimously agreed that the rapist is to be subjected to the prescribed punishment (stoning or whipping) if there is clear evidence against him that he deserves the prescibed punishment, or if he admits to that. Otherwise, he is to be punished (i.e., if there is no proof that the precribed punishment for illegal sexual intercourse may be carried out against him because he does not confess, and there are not four witnesses, then the judge may punish him and stipulate a punishment that will deter him and others like him). There is no punishment for the woman if it is true that he forced her and overpowered her, which may be proven by her screaming and shouting for help.

Al-Istidhkaar, 7/146


Secondly:

The rapist is subject to the prescribed punishment (whipping or stoning) for illegal sexual conduct, even if the rape was not carried out at knife-point or gun-point. If the use of a weapon was threatened, then he is a muhaarib (bandit who uses violence against civilians), and is to be subjected to the prescribed punishment described in the verse in which God says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”

[al-Maaidah 5:33]

So the judge has the choice of the four punishments mentioned in this verse, and may choose whichever he thinks is most suitable to attain the objective, which is to spread peace and security in society, and ward off evildoers and aggressors.

Esteemed Saudi scholar Sheikh Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid also clarifies the ruling of punishment of rape with a weapon under Islamic law:

The ruling on one who steals robs or rapes at knife-point or gun-point

What is the ruling on gangs or individuals who steal from people, or kidnap women and violate their honour, all at knife-point or gun-point?


These crimes, which are committed by some people who have no religious commitment, are given a severe punishment in shariah (Islamic law), which is known to the scholars as the hadd (prescribed punishment) for haraabah (waging war against God) or quta’ al-tareeq (banditry). This is mentioned in the verse in which God says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”

[al-Maa’idah 5:33]

The Council of Senior Scholars in the Land of the Two Holy Sanctuaries, under the leadership of Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn Baaz issued a statement concerning these crimes, in which it says:

The Council has studied what the scholars have mentioned about the shar’i (Islamic law) rulings which in general dictate the obligation to protect the five essentials of life and ensure that they remain safe. They are: religion, life, honour, mental health and wealth. Islam acknowledges the great danger that can result from crimes of aggression against the sanctity of the Muslims’ lives, honour and wealth, and the threat to public security that this can pose in the land.

God has guaranteed protection for the people’s religion, physical well-being, lives, honour and mental health by means of the punishments which He has prescribed to attain security on both the public and private levels. Implementing the verse concerning the hadd punishment for haraabah in accordance with the rulings of the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) concerning muharabeen (those who use violence against civilians) guarantees security and peace of mind, and deters those who would think of committing such crimes and transgressing against the Muslims.

God says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter”

[The Quran, al-Ma’idah v. 33]


...the Council has determined the following:

(a)  The crimes of kidnapping, robbery and transgression of the Muslims’ sanctity by way of open and audacious hostility is a type of muhaarabah (acting with violence against civilians) and doing mischief in the land, which deserves the punishment mentioned by God in the verse in al-Ma’idah, whether that aggression is against people’s lives, wealth or honour, or it is scaring wayfarers and cutting off routes (banditry). It makes no difference whether that happens in cities, villages, the desert or the wilderness, as is the correct view of the scholars.

Ibn al-‘Arabi said, telling of the time when he was a judge:


Quote:

Some bandits were brought before me who had gone out to attack a group of travellers. They took a woman by force from her husband and the group of Muslims who were with him, and carried her off. Then they were hunted down, caught and brought to me. I asked one of the muftis with whom God tested me about them and he said that they were not muhaaribeen, because haraabah (banditry) applies only with regard to wealth, not rape! I said to them: To God we belong and unto Him is our return (said by Muslims at times of calamity). Do you not know that haraabah (aggression) against honour is worse than aggression against wealth? All people would agree to lose their wealth and have it confiscated from them rather than to see aggression committed against their wives or daughters. If there were any punishment more severe than that which God has mentioned, it would be for those who kidnap women.

(b) The Council believes that in the verse in which God says “The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land” the word aw (or) means that there is a choice, as is the apparent meaning of the verse. This is the view of the majority of scholars, may Godhave mercy on them.

(c) The majority of the Council believes that the deputies of the ruler – the judges – have the obligation to prove the type of crime and to pass judgement accordingly. If it is proven that it is a crime that constitutes war against God and His Messenger (muhaarabah) and spreading mischief in the land, then they have the choice of issuing a sentence of execution, crucifixion, cutting off a hand and foot on opposite sides, or exile from the land, based on their ijtihaad and paying attention to the situation of the criminal and the circumstances of the crime, as well as its impact on society and what may best achieve the interests of Islam and the Muslims, unless the muhaarib has killed, in which case he should definitely be executed, as Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki narrated that there was consensus among the scholars on this point. Among the Hanbalis, the author of al-Insaaf said: There is no dispute on this point. End quote from a paper published by the Council of Senior Scholars under the title al-Hukm fi’l-Satw wa’l-Ikhtitaaf wa Muskiraat, p. 192-104

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/41682

Quote:

.........All people would agree to lose their wealth and have it confiscated from them rather than to see aggression committed against their wives or daughters. If there were any punishment more severe than that which God has mentioned, it would be for those who kidnap women. ...........

unless of course, mohammad does it, in which case he can have as many sex slaves as he wants.

What a gyp.

falah wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 12:47pm:

Esteemed Saudi scholar Sheikh Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid clarifies the ruling of punishment of rape under Islamic law: What is the ruling on the crime of rape in Islam? ...This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden “The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter” [al-Maaidah 5:33]

A video of Sheih Munajid here,he says there is no such thing as rape in marriage in Islam because God ordered the woman to consent to her husband whenever he wants some.
If the Sheikh does not even understand the concept of rape in marriage what type of advice does he give?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hgKcFXfRA0


What does sura 5:33 have to do with rape falah?
http://quran.com/5/33

Is 5:32 taken out of context the most?
http://www.quran.com/5/32
The children of Israel? Why do muslims always leave that bit out?

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:47pm: Esteemed Saudi scholar Sheikh Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid clarifies the ruling of punishment of rape under Islamic law: What is the ruling on the crime of rape in Islam? ...This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden “The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter” [al-Maaidah 5:33] A video of Sheih Munajid here,he says there is no such thing as rape in marriage in Islam because God ordered the woman to consent to her husband whenever he wants some. If the Sheikh does not even understand the concept of rape in marriage what type of advice does he give? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hgKcFXfRA0

What exactly is it that a woman does when is getting married? Is marriage saying "We will live together, but not have sex?"


Quote:

In the early common law, the offence of rape did not extend to the marital relationship: BFW 860. Thus, a husband could never be charged or convicted of raping his wife. The husband's defence is called the marital rape immunity. The origins of this immunity can be traced to the writings of Matthew Hale. In his textbook, Pleas of the Crown (published after his death in 1736), Hale said that a husband could not be guilty of committing rape upon his wife. The reason was that by "mutual matrimonial consent the wife hath given up herself in this kind unto her husband which she cannot retract". http://law.anu.edu.au/criminet/trape.html

Both the UK and the state of Victoria did not invent marital rape until 1991. Were British and Victorian society wrong for most of their history, or has modern society lost the plot?


Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

What does sura 5:33 have to do with rape falah? http://quran.com/5/33

The default tranlation is not the best, I suggest ticking Muhsin Khan or Yusuf Ali. The verse was used in relation to criminals who attacked civilians with weapons in the time of Prophet Muhammed (may the peace & blessings of God be upon him), and it has been understood by scholars since then to include rapists who use weapons.



Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 5:15pm:

Is 5:32 taken out of context the most? http://www.quran.com/5/32 The children of Israel? Why do muslims always leave that bit out?

It is not taken out of context. It is actually supported by many verses of the Quran and hadeeth. For example, the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: 

“A man will continue to be sound in his religion so long as he does not shed blood which it is forbidden to shed.” 

“And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the Wrath and the Curse of God are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him”
[Quran, an-Nisaa’ v.93] 

Killing non-Muslims protected by the law is also prohibited:

Abdullah ibn ‘Amr  who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “Whoever killed a mu’aahid (meaning non-Muslims living in the Islamic state, and others who are protected such as foreign ambassadors, as well as non-Muslims who have entered into a peace treaty with the Muslims) will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, although its fragrance may be detected from a distance of forty years’ travel.”
(Saheeh al-Bukhaari, 3166)

falah wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 5:57pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:15pm: falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 12:47pm: Esteemed Saudi scholar Sheikh Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid clarifies the ruling of punishment of rape under Islamic law: What is the ruling on the crime of rape in Islam? ...This is an abhorrent crime that is forbidden “The recompense of those who wage war against God and His Apostle, and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter” [al-Maaidah 5:33] A video of Sheih Munajid here,he says there is no such thing as rape in marriage in Islam because God ordered the woman to consent to her husband whenever he wants some. If the Sheikh does not even understand the concept of rape in marriage what type of advice does he give? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hgKcFXfRA0 What exactly is it that a woman does when is getting married? Is marriage saying "We will live together, but not have sex?" Do you believe marriage gives you the right to have sex whenever you want with your wife whether she is in the mood or not? Most couples have sex before marriage and her consent is required then so why would marriage change this? Quote: In the early common law, the offence of rape did not extend to the marital relationship: BFW 860. Thus, a husband could never be charged or convicted of raping his wife. The husband's defence is called the marital rape immunity. The origins of this immunity can be traced to the writings of Matthew Hale. In his textbook, Pleas of the Crown (published after his death in 1736), Hale said that a husband could not be guilty of committing rape upon his wife. The reason was that by "mutual matrimonial consent the wife hath given up herself in this kind unto her husband which she cannot retract". http://law.anu.edu.au/criminet/trape.html What relevance does a book published in 1736 have in 2012 when it comes to law? Both the UK and the state of Victoria did not invent marital rape until 1991. Were British and Victorian society wrong for most of their history, or has modern society lost the plot? Did they just call it rape? So we have marital rape,what about gang rape or even statutory rape? Do you even know what statutory rape is? What is your opinion of the statutory rape laws in the west? Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:15pm: What does sura 5:33 have to do with rape falah? http://quran.com/5/33 The default tranlation is not the best, I suggest ticking Muhsin Khan or Yusuf Ali. The verse was used in relation to criminals who attacked civilians with weapons in the time of Prophet Muhammed (may the peace & blessings of God be upon him), and it has been understood by scholars since then to include rapists who use weapons. I prefer Muhsin Khan,my Sahih  al Bukhari was translated by him. I think it is best to read pickthal,Yusef Ali,Shakir and Muhsin Khan then people can figure out what is trying to be said. I thought 5:33 applied to well they can read it. Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 5:15pm: Is 5:32 taken out of context the most? http://www.quran.com/5/32 The children of Israel? Why do muslims always leave that bit out? It is not taken out of context. It is actually supported by many verses of the Quran and hadeeth. For example, the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said:  Does that verse apply to muslims or jews? Since when did the muslims become known as the children of Israel? “A man will continue to be sound in his religion so long as he does not shed blood which it is forbidden to shed.”  “And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell to abide therein; and the Wrath and the Curse of God are upon him, and a great punishment is prepared for him” [Quran, an-Nisaa’ v.93]  Killing non-Muslims protected by the law is also prohibited: You mean those who pay the jizya? Is that a form of protection money? The Mafia also look after those who pay protection money Abdullah ibn ‘Amr  who narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings of God be upon him) said: “Whoever killed a mu’aahid (meaning non-Muslims living in the Islamic state, and others who are protected such as foreign ambassadors, as well as non-Muslims who have entered into a peace treaty with the Muslims) will not smell the fragrance of Paradise, although its fragrance may be detected from a distance of forty years’ travel.” (Saheeh al-Bukhaari, 3166) Do we need to enter into a peace treaty with muslims? Are muslims expecting us to do something about a peace treaty or can they initiate one? We dont have to make peace treaties with the hindu/buddhist/jew/voodoo/bahai/scientologist/etc they are fairly peaceful why do we have to make a peace treaty with muslims?

The Punishment For Rape In Islam



Q.
Why wasn't Mohammed punished, for the crime of rape ?


A.
Because Mohammed raped female captives, and in ISLAM, raping female captives is not a crime.


i.e.
Within ISLAM, many forms of criminal behavior [within Western law], including rape [and including the rape of young female children] is 'legitimatized' [made 'lawful'] by Sharia law.



Therefore, within any society, whenever reprehensible and wicked behavior is legalized [by a society of men], then that [wicked] behavior is not considered to be criminal behavior.


e.g.
"UK, young girls plied with drugs, then raped,"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1329870100/14#14

Yadda does your religion permit lying? Because you sure do a lot of it. Do you think Jesus and Moses would approve of your lying?

falah wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 5:07pm:

Yadda does your religion permit lying? Because you sure do a lot of it. Do you think Jesus and Moses would approve of your lying?

can u say behavior of muslims have approval from their Allah?

i have seen with my own eyes some bad occurences from muslims.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 5:11pm:

falah wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 5:07pm: Yadda does your religion permit lying? Because you sure do a lot of it. Do you think Jesus and Moses would approve of your lying? can u say behavior of muslims have approval from their Allah? i have seen with my own eyes some bad occurences from muslims.

God Almighty is good. However, not everyone obeys God's commandments.

If a Muslim commits a sin, then he has not obeyed God Almighty when he committed that sin.

But the worst sin anyone person can make is polytheism.

Jews make polytheism by obeying their rabbis while disobeying God Almighty.

The Jews make their rabbis gods by obeying them in disobedience to God.

The Jews even call their priests "lords (rabbis)"

falah wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 5:43pm:

But the worst sin anyone person can make is polytheism. Jews make polytheism by obeying their rabbis while disobeying God Almighty. The Jews make their rabbis gods by obeying them in disobedience to God. The Jews even call their priests "lords (rabbis)"

;D ;D ;D

I sometimes call my li'l one Lord Muck - I must be a sinner!!!

Save me, save me!

And the UK has the House of Lords, the male members of which are called Lord whatever.....

falah wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 5:07pm:

Yadda does your religion permit lying? Because you sure do a lot of it. Do you think Jesus and Moses would approve of your lying?

falah,

No, my religion does NOT permit lying.

My religion says that all liars will be cast away [discarded] by God.



You ask; Do i think Jesus and Moses would approve of my lying?

Do you have a specific example, that can convince me that i am lying ?

Or, is it just that you accuse me, because telling the truth about ISLAM, is regarded by moslems as 'lies' ?



Wow!

You are going to be in a lot of trouble falah.           ::)







John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.



Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



2 Thessalonians 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10  And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Falah, if rape is considered such a horendous crime, why is the punishment for rape pretty much the same as the punishment for sex?

Would it be fair to say that Islam considers non-permitted sex to be a horrendous crime (with the worst possible punishment), and that the fact that it is non-consensual in rape cases is only considered a minor crime that only attracts an additional financial penalty?

That is, Islamic law is more concernced with stopping consensual sex than with rape?

Also, can you explain why the punishment for rape had to be arrived at indirectly by likening it to theft? Is the punishment for consensual sex given more directly?

Frances wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 5:31am:

And the UK has the House of Lords, the male members of which are called Lord whatever.....

And what do these so-called "lords" do? They are just like the rabbis, contradicting God's laws.

falah wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 7:42pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 5:31am: And the UK has the House of Lords, the male members of which are called Lord whatever..... And what do these so-called "lords" do? They are just like the rabbis, contradicting God's laws.

And are you God's policeman?

freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Falah, if rape is considered such a horendous crime, why is the punishment for rape pretty much the same as the punishment for sex? Would it be fair to say that Islam considers non-permitted sex to be a horrendous crime (with the worst possible punishment), and that the fact that it is non-consensual in rape cases is only considered a minor crime that only attracts an additional financial penalty? That is, Islamic law is more concernced with stopping consensual sex than with rape?

You misunderstand. The punishment for illegal sex is the minimum punsihment for rape. They must be whipped or stoned.

Then there are other punishments which can be added on top for the rapist. Jailing can be added on top of the whipping for a rapist. The rapist could be jailed for life, as well as face a whipping.

If the rapist uses a weapon, he can be whipped, then afterwards executed, crucified or face double amputation as a bandit.


freediver wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 12:29pm:

Also, can you explain why the punishment for rape had to be arrived at indirectly by likening it to theft?

It is not likened to theft? It is likened to banditry/robbery which mean taking something with violence.

Kidnapping a woman ( or even a man) while using a weapon could also be punishable by execution, crucifion, double ampuatation.

However rape is comsidered the more serious of crimes so should be punished with the more serious of punishments.

Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 8:09pm:

Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran?

Of course it isn't. .

Stoning is...  er ...  man made law.

Still, Muslim lawmakers know the mind of God because they are Muslims. Infidel lawmakers don't because they aren't.  Phew. Too easy.

Falah, can you confirm that the punishment for rape only applies in situations where consensual sex is also forbidden? That is, in situations where sex is permitted (husband-wife, owner-sex slave), rape is effectively defined out of existence by Islamic law so a rape conviction is not possible?


Quote:

You misunderstand. The punishment for illegal sex is the minimum punsihment for rape. They must be whipped or stoned. Then there are other punishments which can be added on top for the rapist. Jailing can be added on top of the whipping for a rapist. The rapist could be jailed for life, as well as face a whipping.

I see, so being stoned to death is a minimum punishment? Is this where you explain that killing someone slowly and painfully is a mercy? Or do you mean something else by getting 'stoned'? No wonder I misunderstood.


Quote:

It is not likened to theft? It is likened to banditry/robbery which mean taking something with violence.

I think you missed the point Falah. It is not the violence aspect I am asking about, but the 'taking something' bit. This is especially troublesome for the situation of raping a slave, where you have to compensate the owner for the reduction in value of his property.


Quote:

However rape is comsidered the more serious of crimes so should be punished with the more serious of punishments.

By not stoning them to death?

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 8:27pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? Of course it isn't. . Stoning is...  er ...  man made law.

Right!

That's what I'm saying.

But
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 9:06pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:27pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? Of course it isn't. . Stoning is...  er ...  man made law. Right! That's what I'm saying.

But frien galah is railing against western law as man-made. Having special, direct access to god's mind as a muslim, he cheekily pretends that muslim law ain't man made. He's that medieval.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 8:09pm:

Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran?

"And obey God and obey the Apostle (Muhammed) and be cautious; but if you turn back (against God), then know that the sole duty of the Apostle is the deliverance (of the message)"
[Quran, al-Maidah 5:92]

In Islam, the Quran is not the only source of revealation. Muslims follow the word of God (Quran), as well as the commandments of Prophet Muhammed (sunnah), God's peace & blessing be upon him.


“. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some tribulation befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [Quran an-Nur 24:63]

”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [an-Nisaa’ 4:65]

“. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

Soren wrote on Mar 9^th, 2012 at 9:15pm:

But Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:06pm: Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:27pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? Of course it isn't. . Stoning is...  er ...  man made law. Right! That's what I'm saying. But frien galah is railing against western law as man-made. Having special, direct access to god's mind as a muslim, he cheekily pretends that muslim law ain't man made. He's that medieval.

Haven't the unbelievers considered if this was from other than God, they would find within it many contradictions?
[Quran 4:82]

If you are in doubt about it, bring a chapter like it.
[Quran 2:23]

Bring one chapter like it.
[Quran 10:38]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbQvx4Ej_k

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fGsTGTM3kk

The Quran is a book of miracles. Know of any other book memorised entirely by millions of people?

More than 10 million people living today (mostly non-Arabs) have memorized the entire Quran in the Arabic language on earth today.

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:16pm:

The Quran is a book of miracles. Know of any other book memorised entirely by millions of people?

"The Thoughts of Chairman Mao"

The Cat in the Hat.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:32pm:

falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:16pm: The Quran is a book of miracles. Know of any other book memorised entirely by millions of people? "The Thoughts of Chairman Mao"

Not a very long book. People were forced by their government to read it. So how many people actually memorised the whole book off by heart?

freediver wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 3:06pm:

The Cat in the Hat.

Is that the book you live your life by? Would explain a lot I guess.

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 5:07pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:32pm: falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:16pm: The Quran is a book of miracles. Know of any other book memorised entirely by millions of people? "The Thoughts of Chairman Mao" So how many people actually memorised the whole book off by heart?

Probably millions...

But, yes, I know what you're getting at... It's the "Drink more booze... Millions of drunks can't be wrong" argument.

They've used that one with the Bible... "If it wasn't the word of god... Millions of people wouldn't read it"...

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 1:06pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? "And obey God and obey the Apostle (Muhammed) and be cautious; but if you turn back (against God), then know that the sole duty of the Apostle is the deliverance (of the message)" [Quran, al-Maidah 5:92] In Islam, the Quran is not the only source of revealation. Muslims follow the word of God (Quran), as well as the commandments of Prophet Muhammed (sunnah), God's peace & blessing be upon him. “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some tribulation befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [Quran an-Nur 24:63] ”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [an-Nisaa’ 4:65] “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59]

Quote:

This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. [5:3]

The Quran states the punishment for sexual intercourse outside of marriage in the Quran - lashes. Why isnt something as important as the death penalty mentioned in the Quran?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 6:37pm:

falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:06pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? "And obey God and obey the Apostle (Muhammed) and be cautious; but if you turn back (against God), then know that the sole duty of the Apostle is the deliverance (of the message)" [Quran, al-Maidah 5:92] In Islam, the Quran is not the only source of revealation. Muslims follow the word of God (Quran), as well as the commandments of Prophet Muhammed (sunnah), God's peace & blessing be upon him. “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some tribulation befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [Quran an-Nur 24:63] ”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [an-Nisaa’ 4:65] “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59] Quote: This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. [5:3] The Quran states the punishment for sexual intercourse outside of marriage in the Quran - lashes. Why isnt something as important as the death penalty mentioned in the Quran?

The second pillar of Islam, after the testimony of faith, is prayer. However, the Quran doesn't say how many times a day to pray. This is one of the many things taught by prophet Muhammed in addition to what was revealed in the Quran.

There are many issues which were clarified by the prophet, God's peace & blessings upon him, which were not specified in the Quran.

"With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (Muhammad) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. [16:44]

"And We have not sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe. [16:64]

The Prophet said: "Know that I have been given the Quran and something like it (non-Quranic revealation)"
[ Musnad of Imam Ahmed; Sunan of Abu Dawood]


The Prophet sent Mu`aadh to Yemen and asked him: "How will you judge the cases (that come to you)?" He replied: "I will judge according to the Book of God (Quran)". "But if you do not get anything there, what will you do?", the Prophet asked. He said: "I will refer to the way of the Prophet". "But if you do not get it even there, what will you do?", the Prophet asked again. He replied: "I will exercise my judgment." Hearing this the Prophet patted Mu`aadh on the shoulder and said: "Praise be to God who has guided the Apostle..."
[ Imam Ahmed; at-Tirmidhee;  Abu Dawood; et al.]

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:04pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:37pm: falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:06pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? "And obey God and obey the Apostle (Muhammed) and be cautious; but if you turn back (against God), then know that the sole duty of the Apostle is the deliverance (of the message)" [Quran, al-Maidah 5:92] In Islam, the Quran is not the only source of revealation. Muslims follow the word of God (Quran), as well as the commandments of Prophet Muhammed (sunnah), God's peace & blessing be upon him. “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some tribulation befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [Quran an-Nur 24:63] ”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [an-Nisaa’ 4:65] “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59] Quote: This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. [5:3] The Quran states the punishment for sexual intercourse outside of marriage in the Quran - lashes. Why isnt something as important as the death penalty mentioned in the Quran? The second pillar of Islam, after the testimony of faith, is prayer. However, the Quran doesn't say how many times a day to pray. This is one of the many things taught by prophet Muhammed in addition to what was revealed in the Quran. There are many issues which were clarified by the prophet, God's peace & blessings upon him, which were not specified in the Quran. "With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (Muhammad) the reminder and the advice (the Quran), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought. [16:44] "And We have not sent down the Book (the Quran) to you (Muhammad), except that you may explain clearly unto them those things in which they differ, and (as) a guidance and a mercy for a folk who believe. [16:64] The Prophet said: "Know that I have been given the Quran and something like it (non-Quranic revealation)" [ Musnad of Imam Ahmed; Sunan of Abu Dawood] The Prophet sent Mu`aadh to Yemen and asked him: "How will you judge the cases (that come to you)?" He replied: "I will judge according to the Book of God (Quran)". "But if you do not get anything there, what will you do?", the Prophet asked. He said: "I will refer to the way of the Prophet". "But if you do not get it even there, what will you do?", the Prophet asked again. He replied: "I will exercise my judgment." Hearing this the Prophet patted Mu`aadh on the shoulder and said: "Praise be to God who has guided the Apostle..." [ Imam Ahmed; at-Tirmidhee;  Abu Dawood; et al.]

How do you know that Mohammed was God's prophet - other than Mohammed said so?

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 7:04pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:37pm: falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:06pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? "And obey God and obey the Apostle (Muhammed) and be cautious; but if you turn back (against God), then know that the sole duty of the Apostle is the deliverance (of the message)" [Quran, al-Maidah 5:92] In Islam, the Quran is not the only source of revealation. Muslims follow the word of God (Quran), as well as the commandments of Prophet Muhammed (sunnah), God's peace & blessing be upon him. “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some tribulation befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [Quran an-Nur 24:63] ”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [an-Nisaa’ 4:65] “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59] Quote: This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. [5:3] The Quran states the punishment for sexual intercourse outside of marriage in the Quran - lashes. Why isnt something as important as the death penalty mentioned in the Quran? The second pillar of Islam, after the testimony of faith, is prayer. However, the Quran doesn't say how many times a day to pray. This is one of the many things taught by prophet Muhammed in addition to what was revealed in the Quran. There are many issues which were clarified by the prophet, God's peace & blessings upon him, which were not specified in the Quran.

Prayer is something for which a Muslim is personally accountable to God. Do you really think that God would leave the guideline on inflicting punishment (especially something a barbaric as stoning to death) to someone's recollection of what Muhammad said or did in the form of a hadith?

How many false hadith are out there? What makes you sure this isn't another of those?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:04pm:

falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:04pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:37pm: falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:06pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? "And obey God and obey the Apostle (Muhammed) and be cautious; but if you turn back (against God), then know that the sole duty of the Apostle is the deliverance (of the message)" [Quran, al-Maidah 5:92] In Islam, the Quran is not the only source of revealation. Muslims follow the word of God (Quran), as well as the commandments of Prophet Muhammed (sunnah), God's peace & blessing be upon him. “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some tribulation befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [Quran an-Nur 24:63] ”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [an-Nisaa’ 4:65] “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59] Quote: This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. [5:3] The Quran states the punishment for sexual intercourse outside of marriage in the Quran - lashes. Why isnt something as important as the death penalty mentioned in the Quran? The second pillar of Islam, after the testimony of faith, is prayer. However, the Quran doesn't say how many times a day to pray. This is one of the many things taught by prophet Muhammed in addition to what was revealed in the Quran. There are many issues which were clarified by the prophet, God's peace & blessings upon him, which were not specified in the Quran. Prayer is something for which a Muslim is personally accountable to God. Do you really think that God would leave the guideline on inflicting punishment (especially something a barbaric as stoning to death) to someone's recollection of what Muhammad said or did in the form of a hadith? How many false hadith are out there? What makes you sure this isn't another of those?

i am sorry but is my experience that Muslims do not know which is good behavior. I have seen this and the laws of this countries of islamic nations are very bad to women.

i do not trust muslims behave well to women at all.

My husband is a Muslim and he treats me just fine.

Most of the men I know (Muslim or otherwise) are good to their women.

Muslim peoples who i have the contact with are often bad behaviors with both women and with also us too.

In my national service i dealed with Muslims of many hundreds per day at checkpoints in many different places and i see myself how they can be too.

The kind of checkpoint 'service' that treats Palestinians like animals?  That leaves innocent women to birth on the side of the road so that their babies die?

I don't deny that some Arab men treat their women like crap, but they are certainly not the only ones.

I hope that's not your real name. You should never use your real name on a forum like this. It's unsafe.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:57pm:

The kind of checkpoint 'service' that treats Palestinians like animals?  That leaves innocent women to birth on the side of the road so that their babies die? I don't deny that some Arab men treat their women like crap, but they are certainly not the only ones.

i think you read some story for this?

You know one rules that has is that medical emergencia is processed priority at checkpoints,,, include the pregnant woman type too.

But too i will say that if you had pregnant wife you would not drive through checkpoints places. Checkpoints is not in front of hospitals but in points between security areas-settlements in Judea for Jewish,, border controls for Gaza and Golan,, Jerusalem. You does not have to go through checkpoints for hospital travel for birth times.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:58pm:

I hope that's not your real name. You should never use your real name on a forum like this. It's unsafe.

ah yes i too agree. it is my first name not second though. that is other family name. you know i must too because we are banned normally of talking of learned times from national service. But i do not say of things i know for Israel that i see that is not public to know.

ps,,, writing so much in english is very hard too. Maybe sometimes we can switch to Hebrew?  ;)

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:28pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:04pm: falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 7:04pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 6:37pm: falah wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 1:06pm: Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 8:09pm: Falah, is stoning as a punishment for adultery mentioned in the Quran? "And obey God and obey the Apostle (Muhammed) and be cautious; but if you turn back (against God), then know that the sole duty of the Apostle is the deliverance (of the message)" [Quran, al-Maidah 5:92] In Islam, the Quran is not the only source of revealation. Muslims follow the word of God (Quran), as well as the commandments of Prophet Muhammed (sunnah), God's peace & blessing be upon him. “. . . And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some tribulation befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [Quran an-Nur 24:63] ”But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [an-Nisaa’ 4:65] “. . . (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle . . .” [al-Nisaa’ 4:59] Quote: This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion. [5:3] The Quran states the punishment for sexual intercourse outside of marriage in the Quran - lashes. Why isnt something as important as the death penalty mentioned in the Quran? The second pillar of Islam, after the testimony of faith, is prayer. However, the Quran doesn't say how many times a day to pray. This is one of the many things taught by prophet Muhammed in addition to what was revealed in the Quran. There are many issues which were clarified by the prophet, God's peace & blessings upon him, which were not specified in the Quran. Prayer is something for which a Muslim is personally accountable to God. Do you really think that God would leave the guideline on inflicting punishment (especially something a barbaric as stoning to death) to someone's recollection of what Muhammad said or did in the form of a hadith? How many false hadith are out there? What makes you sure this isn't another of those? i am sorry but is my experience that Muslims do not know which is good behavior. I have seen this and the laws of this countries of islamic nations are very bad to women. i do not trust muslims behave well to women at all.

American girl, 8, is target of ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel

http://i.usatoday.net/communitymanager/_photos/on-deadline/2011/12/27/Israelx-wide-community.jpg

Ultra-Orthodox Jews in the city of Beit Shemesh, to the west of Jerusalem, consider a new girls school there an encroachment on their territory. Dozens of men in black hats jeer and physically accost the girls almost daily, the students say, according to the Associated Press.

Naama Margolese, 8, whose family is from Chicago, says she is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing "immodestly." She tells the AP: "They were scary. They don't want us to go to the school."

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/12/26/article-2078771-0F467F4A00000578-357_634x487.jpg

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2011/12/american-girl-8-is-target-of-ultra-orthodox-jews-in-israel/1#.T1tFB3mOxVM

Quote:

ah yes i too agree. it is my first name not second though.

Good. :)



Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:07pm:

ps,,, writing so much in english is very hard too. Maybe sometimes we can switch to Hebrew?  ;)

I don't speak or write Hebrew. Just think - you're improving a skill.

falah wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 10:16pm:

Ultra-Orthodox Jews in the city of Beit Shemesh, to the west of Jerusalem, consider a new girls school there an encroachment on their territory. Dozens of men in black hats jeer and physically accost the girls almost daily, the students say, according to the Associated Press. Naama Margolese, 8, whose family is from Chicago, says she is afraid of walking to her religious Jewish girls school for fear of extremists who have spat on her and called her a whore for dressing "immodestly." She tells the AP: "They were scary. They don't want us to go to the school."

Perverse irony that a Muslim apologist for Islamism would put his name to the above post...

I'm sure you did not intend the following, but you seem to be saying that you're happy to consider all fundamentalist, extremist religious zealots the same - that is, equally worthy of contempt... Either that, or you agree with their demonstration of Ultra-Orthodox Judaism.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:57pm:

The kind of checkpoint 'service' that treats Palestinians like animals?  That leaves innocent women to birth on the side of the road so that their babies die? I don't deny that some Arab men treat their women like crap, but they are certainly not the only ones.

'Innocent' Palestinian women  ???

Google;
bombers use pregnancy prosthetics, palestinian


'Innocent' Palestinian women, WHO ARE ISLAMIST COMBATANTS ???

What is your argument, Annie ???

That not all Palestinian women ARE ISLAMIST COMBATANTS ???

You can not know that.

And neither can any Israeli soldier.






Annie,

Your words imply that the Israeli border guards are at fault, because of the tactics used by moslems, ISLAMIST terrorists, to murder moslems and Israelis.

Is that your judgement Annie, that Israelis are at fault, because they try to guard themselves from the murderous 'devices' and 'means' of moslems, who wish to murder them ???


Separation is the most useful defense Israelis have against moslem/ISLAMIST terrorism.

And that is why there are checkpoints, everywhere that there are 'Palestinians' moving from one area to another.

The 'fault', is with the behavior of 'Palestinians', not with the Israelis, imo.

God bless Israel, and the Jewish people.







Annie,

How is Israel at fault, when every day, 'Palestinians' declare that they want the blood of their own children to be spilled, in their war against the Jewish people ???

Innocent 'Palestinians', is an oxymoron, imo.



Quote:

"Our children are our glory and honor, they were created to be fertilizer for the land of Palestine, and for our pure land to be saturated with their blood."

"Moderate" Palestinian Authority TV: Palestinian children created to fertilize the land with their blood
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/02/moderate-palestinian-authority-tv-palestinian-children-created-to-fertilize-the-land-with-their-bloo.html




"....the death of those who are killed for the cause of God gives more impetus to the cause, which continues to thrive on their blood."
ISLAMIC scholar, Sayyid Qutb, .......PROMOTING, JUSTIFYING, ISLAM's VIOLENT JIHAD

"Allah Akbar!!!!"






Israel has been erecting these...
IMAGE...
http://www.deiryassin.org/images/fpwall.jpg



To prevent wicked terrorist incidents such as this...

IMAGE...
http://www.israelnewsagency.com/beersheva8.04.jpg

Annie,

Imagine if that victim of ISLAM, this [bus] victim of an ISLAMIC 'martyr' bomber, was YOUR child.



Annie,

Isn't it better that [occasionally] ONE 'Palestinian' baby dies [unintentionally] on the side of the road, rather that 20-30 Israelis [intentionally] die in Israel, in an ISLAMIST bombing ?

Again i say, the 'fault', is with the behavior of 'Palestinians', not with the Israelis.








AND, since these walls went up, SEPARATING ISRAELIS FROM LOCAL MOSLEMS...

IMAGE...
http://www.deiryassin.org/images/fpwall.jpg

...the ISLAMIC 'martyr' bombings within Israel have virtually stopped.


Separation from moslems, works, as a means of ensuring the safety of non-moslems.

And it is a policy that is endorsed by the God of Israel.

"Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord....."




And remember Annie;

"Good fences make good neighbours."






And Annie,

I would rather see ALL of these 'innocent' 'Palestinian' children die, rather than see one innocent Israeli soldier die, because he was guarding his countries borders.


IMAGE
http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/suicide_bomber_1_.jpg
Go on!!! Press the detonator switch!




IMAGE
http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/child_suicide_bomber.jpg


IMAGE
http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/hamas2.jpg


IMAGE
http://images.tdaxp.com/tdaxp_upload/female_suicide_bomber_2.jpg


IMAGE
http://www.science.co.il/arab-israeli-conflict/images/girl-suicide-bomber.jpg




The 'Palestinian' children in the images above, mean, and demonstrate, that it is reasonable for the Israelis to consider ALL 'Palestinian' children [and ALL 'Palestinians'], as being combatants.

Yadda.

Google:

Valium.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 8:33am:

Yadda. Google: Valium.

Funny... Was thinking something similar...

Another thread where anything worth reading is drowned by Yadda's self-absorbed ego. Not unusual for a FRZ to be obsessed with his own cause above all others'.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 8:33am:

Yadda. Google: Valium.

LOL, Annie.


Thanks, but no thanks.

I have no anxiety problems.





Annie,

You condemn the Jewish people, for daring to live in their ancient homeland - a land that was given back to the Jewish people, by the victors of WWI.

You blame the Jewish people, for being attacked.

I blame those who attack the Jewish people, for being their oppressors and murderers.

For the most part, I ignore his posts. It's a shame because I'm sure he has some valid points underneath all that blabbering hatred.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 8:48am:

For the most part, I ignore his posts.

Yeah, me too.


Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 8:48am:

It's a shame because I'm sure he has some valid points underneath all that blabbering hatred.

Maybe... We can only imagine...

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 8:41am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 8:33am: Yadda. Google: Valium. Funny... Was thinking something similar... Another thread where anything worth reading is drowned by Yadda's self-absorbed ego. Not unusual for a FRZ to be obsessed with his own cause above all others'.

So to respond in this forum with evidences, and argument, that Annie is slandering the Jewish people [for the 'crime' of defending themselves, from terror attacks], is unacceptable ?


Israeli checkpoint 'service'.....


Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 10^th, 2012 at 9:57pm:

The kind of checkpoint 'service' that treats Palestinians like animals?  That leaves innocent women to birth on the side of the road so that their babies die? I don't deny that some Arab men treat their women like crap, but they are certainly not the only ones.

Who is at fault.

Israel ?

Or the ISLAMISTS ?





Oh convicted one,

Why do you hate the truth [...the truth that the ISLAMISTS are the aggressors] ?

Why do you hate the facts of the matter being aired ?

And why should anyone who reads Annie slander [in my eyes a slander] of the Jewish people, meekly concede to Annie's point/position/argument ?

Isn't the point of a public forum, that we should challenge the EXPRESSED opinions of others, and present our own arguments ?

Isn't that expression, of differing opinions, healthy for the body politic ?

Or, do you believe that only those in authority, OR, in the mainstream [view/opinion] should be the ones allowed to speak their mind ?

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:03am:

So to respond in this forum with evidences, and argument, that Annie is slandering the Jewish people [for the 'crime' of defending themselves, from terror attacks], is unacceptable ?

Yadda... Go away.... ("the power of Christ compels you").

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:06am:

Yadda wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:03am: So to respond in this forum with evidences, and argument, that Annie is slandering the Jewish people [for the 'crime' of defending themselves, from terror attacks], is unacceptable ? Yadda... Go away.... ("the power of Christ compels you").

Oh convicted one,

Like so many so called defenders of 'democratic principles' and so called defenders of 'liberalism' and so called defenders of 'tolerance', you are merely revealing that you have the nature of a tyrant.

You clearly reveal that you object to others expressing a point of view, when their point of view does not coincide with your own.

So much for freedom of expression, in your 'universe'.




Oh convicted one,

Do you realise just how much you have in common, with good moslems ?            :D

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:15am:

You clearly reveal that you object to others expressing a point of view, when their point of view does not coincide with your own. So much for freedom of expression, in your 'universe'.

No, I object to demented zealots like yourself sh!tting all over threads to satisfy their own ego... (and, more likely, to goad their Muslim FRZ counterparts into an acid spitting competition).

Maybe someone else has another point of view (on both sides)... I wouldn't know after you turn up... Too hard to wade through your crap.

Is there anything else in your life other than demented religiosity? Did it occur to you that your obsessive evangelising pathology is probably having the opposite desired effect?

The reasons that there is the checkpoints is because of security of positions and peoples to ensure that bombs does not come into Israel or to stop attacks to civilians.

i do not know of times of pregnant palestinians who stopped by checkpoints,, me it has never happened and we tell to make sure emergencia occurs quickly processed.

But you know if Muslim terrorists do not bring bombs to Israel then maybe we do not have these many checkpoints,, they who can choose if they want to not.

If they want the peace we can bring peace to them,, if they want the fire then yes we the Israeli Army can bring to them fire too

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

If they want the peace we can bring peace to them,, if they want the fire then yes we the Israeli Army can bring to them fire too

Avram, if you are honest, you would admit that Ultra-Orthodox Jews (whose numbers are rapidly growing) do not want peace with Arabs... And Orthodox Rabbis regularly lecture soldiers on their religious duty with regard to war with non-Jews, to establish a greater Israel.

Are you a secular Jew?

i am not orthodox jew no and yes we has people in Israel who is not want peace with palestinians. This is not most Israelis.

You know 2 years back in Hebron, me and 3 other soldiers must also make arrest of Jewish too who has the fire with weapons into the palestinians area,, they has say to us that is fire come to them and we is ,non jewish poor behavior, -sorry i cannot think how is go to english from hebrew what they say- but they become also angry to us soldiers for this. We can also try to be same treatment when jewish also behave not good.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:37am:

i am not orthodox jew no and yes we has people in Israel who is not want peace with palestinians. This is not most Israelis. You know 2 years back in Hebron, me and 3 other soldiers must also make arrest of Jewish too who has the fire with weapons into the palestinians area,, they has say to us that is fire come to them and we is ,non jewish poor behavior, -sorry i cannot think how is go to english from hebrew what they say- but they become also angry to us soldiers for this. We can also try to be same treatment when jewish also behave not good.

Yes, I have been told that Orthodox Judaism causes many problems for secular Jews.

I have also been told that if secular Jews had full control of Israel, there would have been peace with Arabs years ago.

There is different problems for different peoples in Israel for example.

Once in New York,,, we must wait on the El Al plane for nearly 1 hour at airport only because Orthodox Rabbi for Jerusalem is not on plane and is in taxi late for airport. You know that when this is others like me, then the El Al plane is already coming to Tel Aviv when i get to airport!!!!
this can annoys many people and you El Al is paying $$$$ to americans for this waiting of the plane too.

Orthodox Jew people though is still Israeli and must has their voices too and be listens - from Netanyahu he do this.

This is one problem above but also i see problems too for us soldiers sometime because they can also cause some trouble with Palestinians and we soldiers must both stop them Jews and Palestinians. so we must arrest both side to be fair and then can come problems arresting other Jewish.

Sometimes is can be hard decisions,, we do not -me i speak for me- just arrest palestinians.

Avram, do you think there can be peace?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:54am:

Sometimes is can be hard decisions,, we do not -me i speak for me- just arrest palestinians.

I believe you.

Orthodox Judaism is as bad as any other religious extremism.

The only hope for Israel is for secular Jews to control the state. Orthodox Judaism must not be allowed to destroy Israel's chances to live in peace with its neighbours.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:01am:

Avram, do you think there can be peace?

Yes.
But is not total easy. Not with Hamas.
Areas with Judea is easyier than with Gaza.

But you see there was the peace with Jordan and with Egypt.
Syria-not with Assad. Newer leader of Syria then is possible.

Hamas hate Israeli,, all Israeli. They must have new leaders in Gaza for this to happen. Gaza is very young people though so maybe is some time.

Netanyahu he is says one thing to usa, one thing to world, then one thing to us israelis.
I see though is hard for peoples here in australia to know is situation. i have experience now since january of live australia, you have awake everyday in country with no neighbor,,, none need for army service as no aggressor,, many peoples all friendly to each peoples.

I see it funny too, i watch your politics sometimes and is all fighting with same party people and i smile.You has no problems if i be honest compare to we.
:)

Yes. We're very lucky and I'm sure the things we fight over probably seem trivial to countries at war (civil or otherwise) or those that are suffering from poverty or famine.

Anyway, welcome to Australia :)

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:02am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 9:54am: Sometimes is can be hard decisions,, we do not -me i speak for me- just arrest palestinians. I believe you. Orthodox Judaism is as bad as any other religious extremism. The only hope for Israel is for secular Jews to control the state. Orthodox Judaism must not be allowed to destroy Israel's chances to live in peace with its neighbours.

Most hard times in my 2.5 years service of army was the settlements of Jewish in Palestinian control territory.We must defend these new areas and is stretch across land,far from our control points and this areas is very dangerous.
Many times we must tell the Jewish Orthodox here in this places that we arrest them must they keep exchange with palestinians.
i arrest with others on times and they became angry and speak to us many insults in Hebrew for this times but they makes it very hard for us to also not get into exchanges with palestinians. You see what happens is the Orthodox Jews fire to them,then we come with fire back,so we speak with Tel Aviv who also tells us to fire back etc,,,,,

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:12am:

Most hard times in my 2.5 years service of army was the settlements of Jewish in Palestinian control territory.We must defend these new areas and is stretch across land,far from our control points and this areas is very dangerous. Many times we must tell the Jewish Orthodox here in this places that we arrest them must they keep exchange with palestinians. i arrest with others on times and they became angry and speak to us many insults in Hebrew for this times but they makes it very hard for us to also not get into exchanges with palestinians. You see what happens is the Orthodox Jews fire to them,then we come with fire back,so we speak with Tel Aviv who also tells us to fire back etc,,,,,

I imagine that the Orthodox have a lot of political influence in Israel... But I also believe cynical politicians use the Orthodox and the army to possess Palestinian land ....and even Israeli soldiers know that what the Orthodox and politicians are doing is wrong.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 9:25am:

The reasons that there is the checkpoints is because of security of positions and peoples to ensure that bombs does not come into Israel or to stop attacks to civilians. i do not know of times of pregnant palestinians who stopped by checkpoints,, me it has never happened and we tell to make sure emergencia occurs quickly processed. But you know if Muslim terrorists do not bring bombs to Israel then maybe we do not have these many checkpoints,, they who can choose if they want to not. If they want the peace we can bring peace to them,, if they want the fire then yes we the Israeli Army can bring to them fire too

Oh convicted one,

n.b.

These are exactly the points which i made in one of my posts.






avram, thank you.

For me,, i dont like that ultra-orthodoxes Jews do not serve military and all of us other Jewish do. Lot of Israelis think this.

Yadda wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:25am:

Oh convicted one, n.b. These are exactly the points which i made in one of my posts. avram, thank you.

And he did it in 2 lines... Take the hint.

Get over yourself.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:26am:

For me,, i dont like that ultra-orthodoxes Jews do not serve military and all of us other Jewish do. Lot of Israelis think this.

Why don't they serve?

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:26am:

For me,, i dont like that ultra-orthodoxes Jews do not serve military and all of us other Jewish do. Lot of Israelis think this.

I am told only a small minority of Orthodox Jews serve in the military, but their numbers are growing. Without secular Jews controlling the state, the Orthodox will damage Israel.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:29am:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 10:26am: For me,, i dont like that ultra-orthodoxes Jews do not serve military and all of us other Jewish do. Lot of Israelis think this. Why don't they serve?

They has exemption from military service which come from long time agreement that Ben Gurion agrees with the Ultra-Orthodoxes.
Arabs and Christians is also not necessary to serve army service.

i have 2.5 years and still must 0.5 years more too when i come back.

Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:07am:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11th, 2012 at 10:01am: Avram, do you think there can be peace? Yes. But is not total easy. Not with Hamas. Areas with Judea is easyier than with Gaza. But you see there was the peace with Jordan and with Egypt. Syria-not with Assad. Newer leader of Syria then is possible. Hamas hate Israeli,, all Israeli. They must have new leaders in Gaza for this to happen. Gaza is very young people though so maybe is some time. Netanyahu he is says one thing to usa, one thing to world, then one thing to us israelis. I see though is hard for peoples here in australia to know is situation. i have experience now since january of live australia, you have awake everyday in country with no neighbor,,, none need for army service as no aggressor,, many peoples all friendly to each peoples. I see it funny too, i watch your politics sometimes and is all fighting with same party people and i smile.You has no problems if i be honest compare to we. :)

The fact is that Israel helped establish Hamas in the first place.

How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123275572295011847.html


Hamas Was Founded by Mossad
http://www.wariscrime.com/2008/12/29/news/hamas-was-founded-by-mossad/

Hamas behavior now is not suggests that they want the peace.
You know in 24 hours before now they is still firing rockets into Israel and the army must make retaliations??

This is crazy from the Hamas,, when we last time roll into Gaza to bring calm,, so must we do this again?  :o

i paste some here for you,, and change into english for my aussies peoples  ;) but in the link you can also have hebrew if you likes,,



Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Sunday that Israel has struck a strong blow against terrorist groups in the Gaza Strip over the past several days.

"We have collected a high price from them and we are still collecting," Netanyahu said at a cabinet meeting. "We will continue to operate as long as it is necessary."

Netanyahu said that Israel remains on high alert for a terrorist attack on the Egypt border. On Friday, the Israel Air Force launched a strike in Gaza that killed the leader of the Popular Resistance Committees, Zuhir al-Qaisi, who was believed to be planning a large terror attack on Israel's southern border.

Netanyahu said there was "no doubt" that the IDF action disrupted preparations for a terrorist attack.

More than 110 rockets have been fired at Israel from Gaza since Friday.

More than 30 rockets have been shot down by the Iron Dome, which is designed to only intercept rockets identified as heading toward populated areas.   

On Sunday morning, a volley of rockets fired from Gaza was intercepted by the Iron Dome system in the Ashdod area, as the escalation in Israel's south continued for a third day.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-israel-has-dealt-strong-blow-to-gaza-terrorist-groups-1.417815


7 אלף ילדים לא הולכים לבתיה"ס ולגנים || מטח רקטות יורט מעל אזור אשדוד; נתניהו: "נפעל ככל שיידרש"

צה"ל תקף שלושה יעדים נוספים בעזה והרג שניים, בהם נער בן 13. שר הביטחון

סבב האלימות בדרום שהוצת עקב חיסולו של מזכ"ל ועדות ההתנגדות העממית שלשום אחר הצהריים נמשך גם הבוקר (ראשון). בלילה ובבוקר ביצע צה"ל שלוש תקיפות ברצועת עזה, בין היתר של אתר לייצור ואחסון אמצעי לחימה בצפון רצועת עזה וחוליות שניסו לשגר רקטות. לפי סוכנות הידיעות אי-פי, גורמים פלסטינים מדווחים על שני הרוגים בתקיפות, בהם נער בן 13. ישראל אישרה כי נער בלתי מעורב נהרג בתקיפה.

הנער, איוב עסליה, נהרג בתקיפה ישראלית ממזרח למחנה הפליטים ג'באליה. בן דודו בן השבע נפצע בתקיפה בה נהרג גם חמוש פלסטיני בשם אחמד דיב סאלם, בן 24. הבוקר אמר לאי-פי חאלד אל-בטש, בכיר בג'יהאד האיסלאמי, כי "אין כל מקום לשיחות על רגיעה בהתחשב במקתפה הציונית על עזה".

במקביל נמשך גם הירי על יישובי הדרום. מערכת כיפת ברזל יירטה הבוקר מטח רקטות מעל אזור אשדוד. מוקדם יותר התפוצצה רקטה נוספת בשטח פתוח במועצה האזורית אשכול, מבלי לגרום לנפגעים או לנזק.

ראש הממשלה בנימין נתניהו אמר הבוקר בפתח ישיבת הממשלה כי קייסי חוסל "כשהיה בעיצומה של הכנת פעולת טרור נוספת, שכוונה לגבול ישראל-מצרים". נתניהו הוסיף כי ישראל עדיין נמצאת בכוננות לקראת האפשרות של פיגוע בגבול המצרי. "אין ספק שהפעולה של צה"ל שיבשה את ההתארגנות הזו וימים יגידו עד כמה", אמר נתניהו. "צה"ל מכה בהם בעוצמה. גבינו מהם מחיר יקר ואנחנו עדיין גובים ונפעל ככל שיידרש".

So what actually happened was the IDF killed a suspected terrorist, and Hamas fired off some rockets in protest (stupid, not least because they played right into their hands) and once again Israel has carte blanche to rain hell down on Gaza.

Were any Israelis even injured?

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:07pm:

So what actually happened was the IDF killed a suspected terrorist, and Hamas fired off some rockets in protest (stupid, not least because they played right into their hands) and once again Israel has carte blanche to rain hell down on Gaza. Were any Israelis even injured?

yes immigrant worker in Israel is injured from the rockets attacks. Also is not so much for Israeli side because we has the rocket interception to defend.

Right now is 17 killed since friday operations but from this 15 is confirmed militants from Israeli news service.

There was a 12 year old boy.

This is reactions,,,,


"The United States condemns in the strongest terms the rocket fire from Gaza. These attacks have dramatically and dangerously escalated the current situation.

We call on those responsible to take immediate action to stop these cowardly acts that threaten the people of Southern Israel." -- Victoria Nuland, US State Dept Washington



"The Israeli army has struck several targets inside Gaza including a terrorist squad planning to fire rockets.

The air strikes are in direct response to the rocket fire at Israeli communities in southern Israel.
It is a clear message that the Israeli army will hit anyone planning to attack Israeli citizens." -- Ehud Barak, Minister Defence, Israel.

I've seen the reactions, Avram. They don't surprise me at all.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 11^th, 2012 at 10:41pm:

I've seen the reactions, Avram. They don't surprise me at all.

Well you see where have the USA decide who is aggressor here?

The world would keel over in shock if they said anything else :)

The fact you actually believe the U.S to be an impartial observer in all this speaks volumes about how delusional you are.

The Palestinians could no doubt cobble together justifications for randomly lobbing rockets into Israel for the next 100 years. Like avenging the death of the last rocket lobber and his son to get blown up. That does not mean they aren't complete idiots for doing so.

They need no such justifications. The towns they are lobbing rockets at, are towns their grandparents owned homes in until recently. That's justification enough isn't it?

If they need no justification, why are you attempting to justify it?

Like I said, justification is easy enough to find. I am saying that they are complete idiots. I believe you even explained to me once that Islam opposes the sort of action being undertaken by the palestinians.